Extremely Disappointed - Storm Atranoch Nerf

Maverick827

andrantos wrote: »

Class abilities are not mirrored in design, theme or function. Just because one class has one ability does not mean another class or classes should feature something similar (ex: No class features the wealth and variety of CC as we sorcerers do)

I disagree, Dragonknights have equal or better CC.

By design, the skill system encourages players to mix and match abilities and passives across all available skill lines. As such, sorcerers can be capable tanks, healers, dps' and everything in-between (with or without SA).

Agreed.

The SA ability was never described to "taunt" or instagrab "agro" and it is feasible that the previous function was unintended or a bug

I disagree with this. Everything about the ability says that it was deliberately designed to take aggro. Zenimax saying otherwise does not convince me that this was the case. Regardless, just because an ability does something unintentional doesn't mean that it should be fixed if it's working and fulfilling a balanced role.

If classes should natively support each role... where are my beefy heals?

You don't need an ultimate that heals to have a useful ultimate as a healer. There are other factors which lend itself to a healer's role, which is keeping the group alive. Every other class has ultimates that can reduce the damage of nearby enemies, which fits this category and consequently also helps tanks.

All classes obviously have access to DPS ultimates, so I'm not going to list them. Worst case scenario there's always Soul Strike, Meteor, and Dawnbreaker.

Dragonknight
For Tanking, a Dragonknight could use either of the Dragonknight Standard morphs, as they both provide damage mitigation. They could also use either of the Magma Armor morphs for self and group mitigation.

For Healing, a Dragonknight could use either of the Magma Armor morphs. Since it's the healer's goal to keep the group alive, group mitigation is a suitable choice.

Templar
For Tanking, a Templar could use Empowering Sweep, either of the Nova morphs because they provide damage mitigation. They could also use either of the Rite of Passage morphs because healing aligns with the tank's goal of staying alive.

For Healing, a Templar could use either of the Nova morphs or either of the Rite of Passage morphs because, again, both healing and group damage mitigation fulfill the goal of a healer.

Nightblade
For Tanking, a Nightblade could use either of the Consuming Darkness morphs or the Soul Tether morph because damage mitigation and self-healing are the goals of a tank.

For Healing, a Nightblade could use either of the Consuming Darkness morphs or either of the Soul Tether morphs, because group damage mitigation and group healing are the goals of a healer.

Sorcorer
For Tanking, a Sorcorer has no options. Both Storm Atranoch morphs only provide damage. Both Overload morphs only provide damage. Bosses cannot be stunned and do not have dispel-able buffs, so Negate is useless as well (Negate can be very good on trash, however, stunning normal enemies for 10+ seconds). There are no options in other trees for tanking ultimates except for the PvP trees, and I find it unacceptable to force a PvEer to PvP, especially with how long the grind is to get to Rank 6 Support.

For Healing, a Sorcorer similarly has no useful ultimates.

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌ , @ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌

This is the problem. Here are some solutions:

1. Change one of the Storm Atranoch morphs to taunt again:

Greater Storm Atranoch
Summons an immobile storm atronach to targeted location for 25 seconds. Enemies in the area are stunned for 3 seconds and take 22 Shock Damage. An ally may activate the Charged Lightning synergy: Channeling causing the atronach to deal 150% additional damage for up to 5 seconds. The atranoch taunts its target.

New Effect: The atranoch will taunt its target.

2. Change one of the Storm Atranoch morphs to do less damage, but reduce the damage taken by the party by X% (the reduced damage dealt by the atronoch is implied with the atranoch's auto attacks, or the upfront damage could be reduced, it doesn't matter):

Greater Storm Atranoch
Summons an immobile storm atronach to targeted location for 25 seconds. Enemies in the area are stunned for 3 seconds and take 22 Shock Damage. An ally may activate the Charged Lightning synergy: Channeling causing the atronach to deal 150% additional damage for up to 5 seconds. Nearby allies take X% less damage.

New Effect: Nearby allies take less damage

3. Change one of the other Sorcorer morphs to provide benefits a tank and/or healer might like. Perhaps Power Overload could be replaced with a form that increases healing taken and healing done, with each heal received and each heal cast draining ultimate:

Healing Overload
Casting and receiving heals drains Ultimate. Increases healing done by X% and healing taken by Y%. Toggle to activate.

New Effect: Healing spells heal for more, increases healing taken

4. Change one of the Soul Strike morphs(and remove this morph's channel):

Weaken Soul
Deals X magic damage over Y seconds and reduces the target's damage by Z% while active.

New Effect: Reduces damage dealt by target.

5. Change one of the guild morphs:

Ice Comet
Deals 49 Cold Damage to target and 22 Cold Damage nearby enemies. All affected enemies are knocked back, snared 70%, and deal X% less damage for Z seconds.

New Effect: Deals frost damage and weakens enemies.

6. Add a brand new ultimate to the Undaunted line that helps tanks and healers. This one can be anything, no point in creating a mockup.

7. Allow us to have the choice of slotting normal abilities in the ultimate slot. At least then I could slot Structured Entropy and get 5% health.

gurluasb16_ESO

I was hoping this was about a nerf to the Storm Atronarch mobs.
They're so dang OP.

GnatB

andrantos wrote: »

We actually don't know what the original intent was for this ability. Its description only highlights the damage capabilities, the stun (in addition to the added aoe for one morph and increased hp for the other). It is not described as a decoy or a glorified damage shield.

True. We do not know what the *original* intent was. Back in Beta or even when they were first writing up the features, it may not have been intended to act as a decoy or a glorified damage shield. However, at the time of release it definitely had this taunt, which means that, at some point, it most definitely *was* intended to act as a decoy/glorified damage shield. Adding a taunt isn't something that just happens "accidentally". If it just created too much aggro with it's stun or whatever, then I could concede maybe it was an accident. But it isn't. It's a taunt.

So you cant say it was NEVER intended that way. It most obviously, at some point, WAS intended to be that way by whomever added the taunt.

Now, last I checked, the clannfear doesn't say anything about taunting either. Should we be expected it's taunt to be removed, as it obviously was never intended to be a decoy/damage shield either?

andrantos

Now we're just arguing in circles. What is intended, what isn't intended. Semantics.. language.. whatever. Design vision... whatever... blah! This discussion has gotten ridiculously circular due to some stubborn folk including myself.

Let's keep this discussion simple and to the point.

Prior to 1.3.3, SA had the ability to taunt and grab aggro. This made it function as a damage shield of sorts. It provided Sorcerers a way to handle (or mishandle depending on its use) aggro. It also provided utility for the solo player.

That taunt has been removed with seemingly no feedback as to why. It's removal is documented in the release notes - so it was removed intentionally.

Having now just played with this ability. I gotta say. Its pretty awesome and kind of cool to watch in action. It can still taunt... though it has a difficult time holding it. You would have to open a fight with it in order to capture the removed "taunt".

I would almost say, if they wanted to make this function as a "decoy" of sorts, they would probably have to remove the damage on it or at least lower it significantly.

Persephonius

Maverick827 wrote: »

andrantos wrote: »

Class abilities are not mirrored in design, theme or function. Just because one class has one ability does not mean another class or classes should feature something similar (ex: No class features the wealth and variety of CC as we sorcerers do)

I disagree, Dragonknights have equal or better CC.

By design, the skill system encourages players to mix and match abilities and passives across all available skill lines. As such, sorcerers can be capable tanks, healers, dps' and everything in-between (with or without SA).

Agreed.

The SA ability was never described to "taunt" or instagrab "agro" and it is feasible that the previous function was unintended or a bug

I disagree with this. Everything about the ability says that it was deliberately designed to take aggro. Zenimax saying otherwise does not convince me that this was the case. Regardless, just because an ability does something unintentional doesn't mean that it should be fixed if it's working and fulfilling a balanced role.

If classes should natively support each role... where are my beefy heals?

You don't need an ultimate that heals to have a useful ultimate as a healer. There are other factors which lend itself to a healer's role, which is keeping the group alive. Every other class has ultimates that can reduce the damage of nearby enemies, which fits this category and consequently also helps tanks.

All classes obviously have access to DPS ultimates, so I'm not going to list them. Worst case scenario there's always Soul Strike, Meteor, and Dawnbreaker.

Dragonknight
For Tanking, a Dragonknight could use either of the Dragonknight Standard morphs, as they both provide damage mitigation. They could also use either of the Magma Armor morphs for self and group mitigation.

For Healing, a Dragonknight could use either of the Magma Armor morphs. Since it's the healer's goal to keep the group alive, group mitigation is a suitable choice.

Templar
For Tanking, a Templar could use Empowering Sweep, either of the Nova morphs because they provide damage mitigation. They could also use either of the Rite of Passage morphs because healing aligns with the tank's goal of staying alive.

For Healing, a Templar could use either of the Nova morphs or either of the Rite of Passage morphs because, again, both healing and group damage mitigation fulfill the goal of a healer.

Nightblade
For Tanking, a Nightblade could use either of the Consuming Darkness morphs or the Soul Tether morph because damage mitigation and self-healing are the goals of a tank.

For Healing, a Nightblade could use either of the Consuming Darkness morphs or either of the Soul Tether morphs, because group damage mitigation and group healing are the goals of a healer.

Sorcorer
For Tanking, a Sorcorer has no options. Both Storm Atranoch morphs only provide damage. Both Overload morphs only provide damage. Bosses cannot be stunned and do not have dispel-able buffs, so Negate is useless as well (Negate can be very good on trash, however, stunning normal enemies for 10+ seconds). There are no options in other trees for tanking ultimates except for the PvP trees, and I find it unacceptable to force a PvEer to PvP, especially with how long the grind is to get to Rank 6 Support.

For Healing, a Sorcorer similarly has no useful ultimates.

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌ , @ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌

This is the problem. Here are some solutions:

1. Change one of the Storm Atranoch morphs to taunt again:

Greater Storm Atranoch
Summons an immobile storm atronach to targeted location for 25 seconds. Enemies in the area are stunned for 3 seconds and take 22 Shock Damage. An ally may activate the Charged Lightning synergy: Channeling causing the atronach to deal 150% additional damage for up to 5 seconds. The atranoch taunts its target.

New Effect: The atranoch will taunt its target.

2. Change one of the Storm Atranoch morphs to do less damage, but reduce the damage taken by the party by X% (the reduced damage dealt by the atronoch is implied with the atranoch's auto attacks, or the upfront damage could be reduced, it doesn't matter):

Greater Storm Atranoch
Summons an immobile storm atronach to targeted location for 25 seconds. Enemies in the area are stunned for 3 seconds and take 22 Shock Damage. An ally may activate the Charged Lightning synergy: Channeling causing the atronach to deal 150% additional damage for up to 5 seconds. Nearby allies take X% less damage.

New Effect: Nearby allies take less damage

3. Change one of the other Sorcorer morphs to provide benefits a tank and/or healer might like. Perhaps Power Overload could be replaced with a form that increases healing taken and healing done, with each heal received and each heal cast draining ultimate:

Healing Overload
Casting and receiving heals drains Ultimate. Increases healing done by X% and healing taken by Y%. Toggle to activate.

New Effect: Healing spells heal for more, increases healing taken

4. Change one of the Soul Strike morphs(and remove this morph's channel):

Weaken Soul
Deals X magic damage over Y seconds and reduces the target's damage by Z% while active.

New Effect: Reduces damage dealt by target.

5. Change one of the guild morphs:

Ice Comet
Deals 49 Cold Damage to target and 22 Cold Damage nearby enemies. All affected enemies are knocked back, snared 70%, and deal X% less damage for Z seconds.

New Effect: Deals frost damage and weakens enemies.

6. Add a brand new ultimate to the Undaunted line that helps tanks and healers. This one can be anything, no point in creating a mockup.

7. Allow us to have the choice of slotting normal abilities in the ultimate slot. At least then I could slot Structured Entropy and get 5% health.

Maverick827 wrote: »

andrantos wrote: »

Class abilities are not mirrored in design, theme or function. Just because one class has one ability does not mean another class or classes should feature something similar (ex: No class features the wealth and variety of CC as we sorcerers do)

I disagree, Dragonknights have equal or better CC.

By design, the skill system encourages players to mix and match abilities and passives across all available skill lines. As such, sorcerers can be capable tanks, healers, dps' and everything in-between (with or without SA).

Agreed.

The SA ability was never described to "taunt" or instagrab "agro" and it is feasible that the previous function was unintended or a bug

I disagree with this. Everything about the ability says that it was deliberately designed to take aggro. Zenimax saying otherwise does not convince me that this was the case. Regardless, just because an ability does something unintentional doesn't mean that it should be fixed if it's working and fulfilling a balanced role.

If classes should natively support each role... where are my beefy heals?

You don't need an ultimate that heals to have a useful ultimate as a healer. There are other factors which lend itself to a healer's role, which is keeping the group alive. Every other class has ultimates that can reduce the damage of nearby enemies, which fits this category and consequently also helps tanks.

All classes obviously have access to DPS ultimates, so I'm not going to list them. Worst case scenario there's always Soul Strike, Meteor, and Dawnbreaker.

Dragonknight
For Tanking, a Dragonknight could use either of the Dragonknight Standard morphs, as they both provide damage mitigation. They could also use either of the Magma Armor morphs for self and group mitigation.

For Healing, a Dragonknight could use either of the Magma Armor morphs. Since it's the healer's goal to keep the group alive, group mitigation is a suitable choice.

Templar
For Tanking, a Templar could use Empowering Sweep, either of the Nova morphs because they provide damage mitigation. They could also use either of the Rite of Passage morphs because healing aligns with the tank's goal of staying alive.

For Healing, a Templar could use either of the Nova morphs or either of the Rite of Passage morphs because, again, both healing and group damage mitigation fulfill the goal of a healer.

Nightblade
For Tanking, a Nightblade could use either of the Consuming Darkness morphs or the Soul Tether morph because damage mitigation and self-healing are the goals of a tank.

For Healing, a Nightblade could use either of the Consuming Darkness morphs or either of the Soul Tether morphs, because group damage mitigation and group healing are the goals of a healer.

Sorcorer
For Tanking, a Sorcorer has no options. Both Storm Atranoch morphs only provide damage. Both Overload morphs only provide damage. Bosses cannot be stunned and do not have dispel-able buffs, so Negate is useless as well (Negate can be very good on trash, however, stunning normal enemies for 10+ seconds). There are no options in other trees for tanking ultimates except for the PvP trees, and I find it unacceptable to force a PvEer to PvP, especially with how long the grind is to get to Rank 6 Support.

For Healing, a Sorcorer similarly has no useful ultimates.

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌ , @ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌

This is the problem. Here are some solutions:

1. Change one of the Storm Atranoch morphs to taunt again:

Greater Storm Atranoch
Summons an immobile storm atronach to targeted location for 25 seconds. Enemies in the area are stunned for 3 seconds and take 22 Shock Damage. An ally may activate the Charged Lightning synergy: Channeling causing the atronach to deal 150% additional damage for up to 5 seconds. The atranoch taunts its target.

New Effect: The atranoch will taunt its target.

2. Change one of the Storm Atranoch morphs to do less damage, but reduce the damage taken by the party by X% (the reduced damage dealt by the atronoch is implied with the atranoch's auto attacks, or the upfront damage could be reduced, it doesn't matter):

Greater Storm Atranoch
Summons an immobile storm atronach to targeted location for 25 seconds. Enemies in the area are stunned for 3 seconds and take 22 Shock Damage. An ally may activate the Charged Lightning synergy: Channeling causing the atronach to deal 150% additional damage for up to 5 seconds. Nearby allies take X% less damage.

New Effect: Nearby allies take less damage

3. Change one of the other Sorcorer morphs to provide benefits a tank and/or healer might like. Perhaps Power Overload could be replaced with a form that increases healing taken and healing done, with each heal received and each heal cast draining ultimate:

Healing Overload
Casting and receiving heals drains Ultimate. Increases healing done by X% and healing taken by Y%. Toggle to activate.

New Effect: Healing spells heal for more, increases healing taken

4. Change one of the Soul Strike morphs(and remove this morph's channel):

Weaken Soul
Deals X magic damage over Y seconds and reduces the target's damage by Z% while active.

New Effect: Reduces damage dealt by target.

5. Change one of the guild morphs:

Ice Comet
Deals 49 Cold Damage to target and 22 Cold Damage nearby enemies. All affected enemies are knocked back, snared 70%, and deal X% less damage for Z seconds.

New Effect: Deals frost damage and weakens enemies.

6. Add a brand new ultimate to the Undaunted line that helps tanks and healers. This one can be anything, no point in creating a mockup.

7. Allow us to have the choice of slotting normal abilities in the ultimate slot. At least then I could slot Structured Entropy and get 5% health.

This is silly. No the ultimates should not be adjusted because a sorcerer is not as effective at certain roles as other classes. This will kind of ruin the point of having classes to begin with.

The main strength of a sorcerer is that it is more or the less the only class that can maintain sustained high ranged dps. This is the classes niche. What you are basically saying is: I only want to play a sorcerer, so make it the best at every role. That is absurd.

Maverick827

The main strength of a sorcerer is that it is more or the less the only class that can maintain sustained high ranged dps. This is the classes niche. What you are basically saying is: I only want to play a sorcerer, so make it the best at every role. That is absurd.

Please keep this civil. Please don't put words in my mouth.

Every class should be supported in every role. I am not asking for Sorcorers to be the best tank. If I were, I'd have to be asking for a lot more, considering they have almost no good taking abilities compared to Green Dragon Blood, Siphoning Strikes, Ash Cloud, Summon Shade, Sun Shield, Blinding Light, etc. I am asking for one useful tanking ultimate available outside of PvP, like every other class gets.

crislevin

andrantos wrote: »

Now we're just arguing in circles. What is intended, what isn't intended. Semantics.. language.. whatever. Design vision... whatever... blah! This discussion has gotten ridiculously circular due to some stubborn folk including myself.

Let's keep this discussion simple and to the point.

Prior to 1.3.3, SA had the ability to taunt and grab aggro. This made it function as a damage shield of sorts. It provided Sorcerers a way to handle (or mishandle depending on its use) aggro. It also provided utility for the solo player.

That taunt has been removed with seemingly no feedback as to why. It's removal is documented in the release notes - so it was removed intentionally.

Having now just played with this ability. I gotta say. Its pretty awesome and kind of cool to watch in action. It can still taunt... though it has a difficult time holding it. You would have to open a fight with it in order to capture the removed "taunt".

I would almost say, if they wanted to make this function as a "decoy" of sorts, they would probably have to remove the damage on it or at least lower it significantly.

Why? All other 200 cost ultimate does similar damage, if not more, plus damage mitigation to the player. Why should SA be worse?

Vahrokh

crislevin wrote: »

Why? All other 200 cost ultimate does similar damage, if not more, plus damage mitigation to the player. Why should SA be worse?

They are too hypocrites to tell you. What they are all thinking is: "sorcerers are OP so they deserve <enter here any kind of evil>".

Actually, they are laughing hard under their moustaches.

nicholaspingasb16_ESO

Yeah, they goofed on this one. A good choice for dungeons, but a bad choice for solo players.

Vahrokh

nicholaspingasb16_ESO wrote: »

Yeah, they goofed on this one. A good choice for dungeons, but a bad choice for solo players.

No, it's crap on all the line. I always used it in dungeons both as damage boost and to save situations like the tank having problems staying alive.

Now my class just lost group utility AND solo utility, when all they needed was to just add a "raiding morph" without the taunt.

mrsmitty81

Ya this change has screwed me since I only PVE solo, I can't do bosses very effectively anymore. I am a glass cannon and if i don't have something to migitate dmg coming my way I am hooped

gladen5rwb17_ESO

Remove the taunt, then let the Atronaut move. What is the point of no taunt if the mob/s run directly towards the Sorcerer. Now they have to move to the pet in order for it to do it's job.

andrantos

gladen5rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Remove the taunt, then let the Atronaut move. What is the point of no taunt if the mob/s run directly towards the Sorcerer. Now they have to move to the pet in order for it to do it's job.

This is not true actually. It can attack from range and seems to prioritize the summoner's target. I'm not saying it shouldn't be mobile, but it's inability to move does not necessarily make it useless.

andrantos

crislevin wrote: »

Why? All other 200 cost ultimate does similar damage, if not more, plus damage mitigation to the player. Why should SA be worse?

It's actually 170 with one of the summoning passives maxed. In order to keep this discussion relevant, lets keep it on the usefulness of the taunt and how it was used by players in various scenarios.

Digging into the design and scope of the overall skill system is just going to steer this discussion of course (as it already had).

Anastasia

Maverick827 wrote: »

The main strength of a sorcerer is that it is more or the less the only class that can maintain sustained high ranged dps. This is the classes niche. What you are basically saying is: I only want to play a sorcerer, so make it the best at every role. That is absurd.

Please keep this civil. Please don't put words in my mouth.

Every class should be supported in every role. I am not asking for Sorcerers to be the best tank. If I were, I'd have to be asking for a lot more, considering they have almost no good taking abilities compared to Green Dragon Blood, Siphoning Strikes, Ash Cloud, Summon Shade, Sun Shield, Blinding Light, etc. I am asking for one useful tanking ultimate available outside of PvP, like every other class gets.

---

>>>"Every class should be supported in every role."<<<<????????????????

This. I am not convinced. TESO hasn't been able to do the everyone-can-be-everything thing right as yet.

No matter how noble was the vision. It seems obvious there continues to be a major struggle in balance, despite a lot of suggestions, ideas etc by players, some of whom are quite knowlegeable about the industry -- presumably ZOS has the professionals at hand who DO know how to remedy this.

Why isn't it being done, or when will it be done is the only real question.

Maverick827

Another option that would be acceptable:

Allow blocking while using Overload, and buff the Energy Overload morph to:

Energy Overload

Light and Heavy Attacks are replaced with empowered versions that drain Ultimate and with damage increased by 9% that also restore X Magicka and Stamina. Empowered Light Attacks hit for 27 Shock Damage and empowered Heavy Attacks hit for 16 Shock Damage. Toggle to activate.

New Effect:
Light and heavy attacks restore magicka and stamina

Blocking and dodge rolling is damage mitigation and those require stamina. Sorcorer have zero stamina Regen abilities and this would promote more stamina builds, so overall this would be a pretty simple and widely helpful change. This would not help healing Sorcorers as far as I know, however.

Persephonius

Anastasia wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

The main strength of a sorcerer is that it is more or the less the only class that can maintain sustained high ranged dps. This is the classes niche. What you are basically saying is: I only want to play a sorcerer, so make it the best at every role. That is absurd.

Please keep this civil. Please don't put words in my mouth.

Every class should be supported in every role. I am not asking for Sorcerers to be the best tank. If I were, I'd have to be asking for a lot more, considering they have almost no good taking abilities compared to Green Dragon Blood, Siphoning Strikes, Ash Cloud, Summon Shade, Sun Shield, Blinding Light, etc. I am asking for one useful tanking ultimate available outside of PvP, like every other class gets.

---

>>>"Every class should be supported in every role."<<<<????????????????

This. I am not convinced. TESO hasn't been able to do the everyone-can-be-everything thing right as yet.

No matter how noble was the vision. It seems obvious there continues to be a major struggle in balance, despite a lot of suggestions, ideas etc by players, some of whom are quite knowlegeable about the industry -- presumably ZOS has the professionals at hand who DO know how to remedy this.

Why isn't it being done, or when will it be done is the only real question.

I think there is a miss-interpretation here. This vision was that every class CAN be any role. And that is exactly how it is. And they have made certain classes favor certain roles more than others, which is the whole point of having classes to begin with. If you gave every class a true equality in every role, that would be a serious mistake. It would make the game dreadfully boring. Having class effectiveness vary per role adds a dynamic to both PvP and PvE, enabling player influence in creating better groups and strategies, and achieving a higher level of versatility in PvP.

ssfiit

This is BS. I demand it get un-nerfed.

Anastasia

Persephonius wrote: »

Anastasia wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

The main strength of a sorcerer is that it is more or the less the only class that can maintain sustained high ranged dps. This is the classes niche. What you are basically saying is: I only want to play a sorcerer, so make it the best at every role. That is absurd.

Please keep this civil. Please don't put words in my mouth.

Every class should be supported in every role. I am not asking for Sorcerers to be the best tank. If I were, I'd have to be asking for a lot more, considering they have almost no good taking abilities compared to Green Dragon Blood, Siphoning Strikes, Ash Cloud, Summon Shade, Sun Shield, Blinding Light, etc. I am asking for one useful tanking ultimate available outside of PvP, like every other class gets.

---

>>>"Every class should be supported in every role."<<<<????????????????

This. I am not convinced. TESO hasn't been able to do the everyone-can-be-everything thing right as yet.

No matter how noble was the vision. It seems obvious there continues to be a major struggle in balance, despite a lot of suggestions, ideas etc by players, some of whom are quite knowlegeable about the industry -- presumably ZOS has the professionals at hand who DO know how to remedy this.

Why isn't it being done, or when will it be done is the only real question.

I think there is a miss-interpretation here. This vision was that every class CAN be any role. And that is exactly how it is. And they have made certain classes favor certain roles more than others, which is the whole point of having classes to begin with. If you gave every class a true equality in every role, that would be a serious mistake. It would make the game dreadfully boring. Having class effectiveness vary per role adds a dynamic to both PvP and PvE, enabling player influence in creating better groups and strategies, and achieving a higher level of versatility in PvP.

---

I do not want to see every base-class exactly the same either. There is a medium. A point at which all four bases are within range of the same level of strength, access to regen, power, bursts etc all while having varying abilities. While it is/will be an ongoing balancing issue, it most definitely should be brought CLOSER to a reasonable balance.

ZOS has gads of awesome experience with the folks they have in-house. I don't believe they don't 'know how to balance' -- there either is some reason that is not public for the stam/magic ratio problem, or they plan to address it with some future content so they cannot take care of it right now for fear of conflict with the upcoming plans.

Right now "And they have made certain classes favor certain roles more than others," basically has made certain classes HAVE THE BEST CHANCE OF FAVORING CERTAIN ROLES, specifically Magicka ones. Comeon - you cannot argue this with all the data provided since Beta in TESO.

Having class effectiveness vary per role adds a dynamic..." adds a very workable dynamic to PvP. Having a blast in Cyr now. PvE? Meh STILL.

Persephonius

Anastasia wrote: »

Persephonius wrote: »

Anastasia wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

The main strength of a sorcerer is that it is more or the less the only class that can maintain sustained high ranged dps. This is the classes niche. What you are basically saying is: I only want to play a sorcerer, so make it the best at every role. That is absurd.

Please keep this civil. Please don't put words in my mouth.

Every class should be supported in every role. I am not asking for Sorcerers to be the best tank. If I were, I'd have to be asking for a lot more, considering they have almost no good taking abilities compared to Green Dragon Blood, Siphoning Strikes, Ash Cloud, Summon Shade, Sun Shield, Blinding Light, etc. I am asking for one useful tanking ultimate available outside of PvP, like every other class gets.

---

>>>"Every class should be supported in every role."<<<<????????????????

This. I am not convinced. TESO hasn't been able to do the everyone-can-be-everything thing right as yet.

No matter how noble was the vision. It seems obvious there continues to be a major struggle in balance, despite a lot of suggestions, ideas etc by players, some of whom are quite knowlegeable about the industry -- presumably ZOS has the professionals at hand who DO know how to remedy this.

Why isn't it being done, or when will it be done is the only real question.

I think there is a miss-interpretation here. This vision was that every class CAN be any role. And that is exactly how it is. And they have made certain classes favor certain roles more than others, which is the whole point of having classes to begin with. If you gave every class a true equality in every role, that would be a serious mistake. It would make the game dreadfully boring. Having class effectiveness vary per role adds a dynamic to both PvP and PvE, enabling player influence in creating better groups and strategies, and achieving a higher level of versatility in PvP.

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Right now "And they have made certain classes favor certain roles more than others," basically has made certain classes HAVE THE BEST CHANCE OF FAVORING CERTAIN ROLES, specifically Magicka ones. Comeon - you cannot argue this with all the data provided since Beta in TESO.

Well some examples. A sorcerer is not as effective in melee range as a dragon knight. Conversely a dragon knight is not as effective outside of melee range as a sorcerer. The argument regarding stats (stamina/magicka) is not related to a specific role. A magicka based character is a magicka based BUILD, where as a ranged dps is a ranged dps role; there is a difference. A player of a ranged dps role could be either of stamina or a magicka based build.

Maverick827

Persephonius wrote: »

Anastasia wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

The main strength of a sorcerer is that it is more or the less the only class that can maintain sustained high ranged dps. This is the classes niche. What you are basically saying is: I only want to play a sorcerer, so make it the best at every role. That is absurd.

Please keep this civil. Please don't put words in my mouth.

Every class should be supported in every role. I am not asking for Sorcerers to be the best tank. If I were, I'd have to be asking for a lot more, considering they have almost no good taking abilities compared to Green Dragon Blood, Siphoning Strikes, Ash Cloud, Summon Shade, Sun Shield, Blinding Light, etc. I am asking for one useful tanking ultimate available outside of PvP, like every other class gets.

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>>>"Every class should be supported in every role."<<<<????????????????

This. I am not convinced. TESO hasn't been able to do the everyone-can-be-everything thing right as yet.

No matter how noble was the vision. It seems obvious there continues to be a major struggle in balance, despite a lot of suggestions, ideas etc by players, some of whom are quite knowlegeable about the industry -- presumably ZOS has the professionals at hand who DO know how to remedy this.

Why isn't it being done, or when will it be done is the only real question.

I think there is a miss-interpretation here. This vision was that every class CAN be any role. And that is exactly how it is. And they have made certain classes favor certain roles more than others, which is the whole point of having classes to begin with. If you gave every class a true equality in every role, that would be a serious mistake. It would make the game dreadfully boring. Having class effectiveness vary per role adds a dynamic to both PvP and PvE, enabling player influence in creating better groups and strategies, and achieving a higher level of versatility in PvP.

I agree that classes should not be 100% mirrors, but not having access to any ultimate at all that is even remotely tanking-oriented is unacceptable in my opinion. Other classes have multiple choices; Sorcorers should at least have one.

Maverick827

Right now I tank with precisely two actual Sorcorer abilities: Thundering Presence and Twilight Matriarch, the latter of which is experimental and probably won't make the cut. If I go back to light armor tanking than I'd also add in Bound Aegis. Those are really the only viable Sorcorer abilities for tanking.

Unstable Familiar: Obviously not useful for tanking end-game.
Daedric Curse: Solely used for damage, not useful.
Winged Twilight: One morph heals you, could be useful.
Bound Armor: Only needed if tanking in light armor.
Conjured Ward: Absorbs damage before mitigation is taken into account. The value is low enough that it won't even absorb one boss attack. Very expensive for how innefective it is.

Crystal Shard: Only for damage, knockdown does not affect bosses.
Encase: Extremely expenive, outclassed by Volcanic Rune.
Rune Prison: Doesn't affect bosses.
Dark Exchange: Tanks need stamina.
Daedric Mines: This one is tricky. With the Blood Magic passive, each mine that triggers will heal for 5%, and with five mines that's a 25% heal. However, most bosses do not have hit boxes large enough to trigger all mines, and it's one of the most expensive spells in the game (~655 magicka!).


Mage's Fury: The Eness Fury morph could be useful during encounters with adds: you can pick off adds right before they die to gain some magicka back.
Lightning Form: The only legitimately good tanking ability Sorcorers have.
Lightning Splash: Only for damage.
Surge: Critic Surge is an interesting ability. I certainly use it when soloing with 60% spell crit, but I don't personally enjoy the "tank as DPS" approach. I prefer to focus on mitigation (hoping one day it will actually be required), which takes you down a path that doesn't lend itself to high crit.
Bolt Escape: Extremely situational, very expensive for what use it is to a PvE tank.

Passives are another mess. While other classes get mitigation passives and resource restoration passives, Sorcorers get one good tanking passive: Power Stone. Which is now hilarious because we don't have a useful ultimate anymore.

andrantos

Maverick... As others have pointed out, sorcs are not designed to innately be tanks. Once again, by using other skill lines per the games design, you have plenty of tanky abilities.

Healer sorcs rely even less on their native ability sets. That is the design. That is okay.

Kvasir Silverpaw

Armann wrote: »

Kvasir Silverpaw wrote: »

Sorc is supposed to be a "glass cannon", How the hell can any pet/summoned thing of a Sorc not taunt. Another nerf to placate people instead of just making nightblades better.

Dont change the game for the small % chance you are in a battle with "multiple SA". I bet this accounts for 1% or less of total encounters so poo poo on that excuse.

NB can already do alot better solo against CC immune bosses in public dungeons and overland bosses with the help of Shadow Cloak which doesn't require ultimate to sustain. If the argument was unfairness towards non-Sorcerers incapability to tackle these mobs then by all rights should Shadow Cloak suffer the same fate in "fairness". I'm not complaining though, I currently play a NB and left my Sorcerer behind.

opposite with me (and most others). do some reading. every 3rd post used to be "OP DK !!!" ..then it was "OP SORC" ....i never saw someone say im a dk or im a sorc and i cant do anything , everyone is better than me, you PROMISED to fix our class, our class is unplayabbe. my only educated guess is those were NB people.

Kvasir Silverpaw

By just changing it , its a clear nerf. Done to placate other classes and people. If not a nerf then make it a damn change, like ok , no taunt but increased dps, or leave the taunt in and decrease the dps ..that woulda been the smart thing. but nerfing sorc outright makes other classes seem better ..so nice move zos again to pander.

Persephonius

Kvasir Silverpaw wrote: »

By just changing it , its a clear nerf. Done to placate other classes and people. If not a nerf then make it a damn change, like ok , no taunt but increased dps, or leave the taunt in and decrease the dps ..that woulda been the smart thing. but nerfing sorc outright makes other classes seem better ..so nice move zos again to pander.

I am a sorcerer, and I still maintain that this change was more of a buff.

Maverick827

andrantos wrote: »

Maverick... As others have pointed out, sorcs are not designed to innately be tanks. Once again, by using other skill lines per the games design, you have plenty of tanky abilities.

Healer sorcs rely even less on their native ability sets. That is the design. That is okay.

And as others have pointed out, this is not how the game was marketed, and overall this seems unfair as every other class has skills for damage, healing, and tanking.

Persephonius

Maverick827 wrote: »

andrantos wrote: »

Maverick... As others have pointed out, sorcs are not designed to innately be tanks. Once again, by using other skill lines per the games design, you have plenty of tanky abilities.

Healer sorcs rely even less on their native ability sets. That is the design. That is okay.

And as others have pointed out, this is not how the game was marketed, and overall this seems unfair as every other class has skills for damage, healing, and tanking.

Sorcerers have several clear abilities that aid in tanking and dps. They also have abilities that help with healing. The sorcerer class has the best passive magicka sustain, which is important for healing. The dark magic ultimate is very effective healing wise, particularly the morph that grants mitigation to everyone under the barrier. Dark exchange is also extremely handy for healing. Generally, there are phases with dungeon bosses where the damage out put becomes intense, and then lessens off, and repeats in cycles. In the intense phases you can really push and burn magicka, knowing that you have an ability to recover more than 50% of your magicka pool in 4 seconds. Sorcerers make very good sustained healers. They lack burst healing. But they do have abilities that help in healing.

So there are sorcerer abilities that can be used in the roles of the holy trinity, tanking, healing and dps. But under those roles there are sub roles. I.e. sorcerers can more effectively take on a sustained healing role than even a Templar.

Maverick827

I have already gone through the list of Sorcorer abilities. There are very few useful - far fewer than other classes - for boss tanking (trash doesn't matter, everyone can go DPS).

But this isn't necessarily about all abilities, this is just about ultimates. There are zero non-PvP ultimates for boss tanking available to Sorcorer tanks.

Aeratus

I don't see what's wrong with Sorc tanking. Even without a tanking ultimate, they have other skills, like bound armor. No other class can put on armor permanently like a sorc can.

As to world and public dungeon bosses, there are very few of them that are CC immune. You don't need ultimates to handle public dungeon CC-immune bosses like gargoyles and steam centurions.