Extremely Disappointed - Storm Atranoch Nerf

andrantos

Maverick, I understand the frustration related to changes that you feel aren't deserved. I do, I swear.

However, the change implies that the ability wasn't working the way it should. Nowhere in its description does it say it'll get insta-hate.

My comments still stand by the fact that sorcs can still tank effectively and solo effectively. If your success was based solely on this one ability, then you need to reevaluate your current build anyways.

Absynthe

After playing a couple sorc and using that thing, not surprised it got nerf'd, tbh.

NerfEverything

You bring up a good point...nerf DKs

Maverick827

andrantos wrote: »

Maverick, I understand the frustration related to changes that you feel aren't deserved. I do, I swear.

However, the change implies that the ability wasn't working the way it should. Nowhere in its description does it say it'll get insta-hate.

My comments still stand by the fact that sorcs can still tank effectively and solo effectively. If your success was based solely on this one ability, then you need to reevaluate your current build anyways.

My success is not solely based on SA at all, but that's not a good argument as to why it's okay for it to be nerfed with no compensation.

I also disagree that the SA was not meant to tank. I believe this is a pretense that Zenimax is hiding behind to justify the nerf. If it was not meant to tank, then why does one morph vastly increase the pet's defenses? Tooltips in this game are unreliable. The Clannfear tooltip does not say that it taunts, yet everyone seems to believe that pet is meant for tanking.

Whether or not the taunt was intentional is immaterial. Even if the game launched in this state we would still have a problem: Sorcorer tanks have no ultimate that in any way helps them tank.

Maotti

My Nord sorcerer main is disappointed.

Maverick827

Maverick827 wrote: »

andrantos wrote: »

Maverick, I understand the frustration related to changes that you feel aren't deserved. I do, I swear.

However, the change implies that the ability wasn't working the way it should. Nowhere in its description does it say it'll get insta-hate.

My comments still stand by the fact that sorcs can still tank effectively and solo effectively. If your success was based solely on this one ability, then you need to reevaluate your current build anyways.

My success is not solely based on SA at all, but that's not a good argument as to why it's okay for it to be nerfed with no compensation.

I also disagree that the SA was not meant to tank. I believe this is a pretense that Zenimax is hiding behind to justify the nerf. If it was not meant to tank, then why does one morph vastly increase the pet's defenses? Tooltips in this game are unreliable. The Clannfear tooltip does not say that it taunts, yet everyone seems to believe that pet is meant for tanking.

Whether or not the taunt was intentional is immaterial. Even if the game launched in this state we would still have a problem: Sorcorer tanks have no ultimate that in any way helps them tank.

To add:


@ZOS_GinaBruno‌ , @ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌
Is this issue and this grievance aware to the developers? Many people asked on the PTS forum for one morph to be DPS and one to be tank, but we did not receive a response. I cannot believe that Sorcorer tanks having no useful ultimate is intended.

andrantos

Maverick827 wrote: »

andrantos wrote: »

Maverick, I understand the frustration related to changes that you feel aren't deserved. I do, I swear.

However, the change implies that the ability wasn't working the way it should. Nowhere in its description does it say it'll get insta-hate.

My comments still stand by the fact that sorcs can still tank effectively and solo effectively. If your success was based solely on this one ability, then you need to reevaluate your current build anyways.

My success is not solely based on SA at all, but that's not a good argument as to why it's okay for it to be nerfed with no compensation.

I also disagree that the SA was not meant to tank. I believe this is a pretense that Zenimax is hiding behind to justify the nerf. If it was not meant to tank, then why does one morph vastly increase the pet's defenses? Tooltips in this game are unreliable. The Clannfear tooltip does not say that it taunts, yet everyone seems to believe that pet is meant for tanking.

Whether or not the taunt was intentional is immaterial. Even if the game launched in this state we would still have a problem: Sorcorer tanks have no ultimate that in any way helps them tank.

I would argue differently. But even if that were true, is that even such a bad thing? Classes are intentionally not mirrored. Sorcerer is innately a dps with lots of cc options. We're also peppered with other abilities to help us tank or provide "healer-esque" support.

By design, each class has its own innate strengths and weaknesses. By design, you can utilize other skill lines to counter said weaknesses or enhance your strengths further.

If you used SA to control adds... We have CC for that. If you want a damage shield, we have a native ability and weapon ability for that. If you want mitigation, you have plenty of options available.

Maverick827

andrantos wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

andrantos wrote: »

Maverick, I understand the frustration related to changes that you feel aren't deserved. I do, I swear.

However, the change implies that the ability wasn't working the way it should. Nowhere in its description does it say it'll get insta-hate.

My comments still stand by the fact that sorcs can still tank effectively and solo effectively. If your success was based solely on this one ability, then you need to reevaluate your current build anyways.

My success is not solely based on SA at all, but that's not a good argument as to why it's okay for it to be nerfed with no compensation.

I also disagree that the SA was not meant to tank. I believe this is a pretense that Zenimax is hiding behind to justify the nerf. If it was not meant to tank, then why does one morph vastly increase the pet's defenses? Tooltips in this game are unreliable. The Clannfear tooltip does not say that it taunts, yet everyone seems to believe that pet is meant for tanking.

Whether or not the taunt was intentional is immaterial. Even if the game launched in this state we would still have a problem: Sorcorer tanks have no ultimate that in any way helps them tank.

I would argue differently. But even if that were true, is that even such a bad thing? Classes are intentionally not mirrored. Sorcerer is innately a dps with lots of cc options. We're also peppered with other abilities to help us tank or provide "healer-esque" support.

By design, each class has its own innate strengths and weaknesses. By design, you can utilize other skill lines to counter said weaknesses or enhance your strengths further.

If you used SA to control adds... We have CC for that. If you want a damage shield, we have a native ability and weapon ability for that. If you want mitigation, you have plenty of options available.

Yes, that is a very bad thing. The whole point of this class system was that any class could perform any role.

I have ready addressed why your suggestions are not viable.

andrantos

Maverick827 wrote: »

andrantos wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

andrantos wrote: »

Maverick, I understand the frustration related to changes that you feel aren't deserved. I do, I swear.

However, the change implies that the ability wasn't working the way it should. Nowhere in its description does it say it'll get insta-hate.

My comments still stand by the fact that sorcs can still tank effectively and solo effectively. If your success was based solely on this one ability, then you need to reevaluate your current build anyways.

My success is not solely based on SA at all, but that's not a good argument as to why it's okay for it to be nerfed with no compensation.

I also disagree that the SA was not meant to tank. I believe this is a pretense that Zenimax is hiding behind to justify the nerf. If it was not meant to tank, then why does one morph vastly increase the pet's defenses? Tooltips in this game are unreliable. The Clannfear tooltip does not say that it taunts, yet everyone seems to believe that pet is meant for tanking.

Whether or not the taunt was intentional is immaterial. Even if the game launched in this state we would still have a problem: Sorcorer tanks have no ultimate that in any way helps them tank.

I would argue differently. But even if that were true, is that even such a bad thing? Classes are intentionally not mirrored. Sorcerer is innately a dps with lots of cc options. We're also peppered with other abilities to help us tank or provide "healer-esque" support.

By design, each class has its own innate strengths and weaknesses. By design, you can utilize other skill lines to counter said weaknesses or enhance your strengths further.

If you used SA to control adds... We have CC for that. If you want a damage shield, we have a native ability and weapon ability for that. If you want mitigation, you have plenty of options available.

Yes, that is a very bad thing. The whole point of this class system was that any class could perform any role.

I have ready addressed why your suggestions are not viable.

And as I stated... we can already fulfill any role. If I want run as healer, outside of an ultimate, all my abilities come from non-sorcerer skill lines. We don't really have a good ultimate for healing (outside some really unlikely conditions on a morph). That doesn't make me incapable of healing does it? I simply adjust stat allocations and gear selections to accommodate our lack of native healing options (which other classes have).

Maulkin

I do 0 PvE with my Sorc so I'm confused, some PvE Sorc please enlighten me.

The way I see it, if you're tanking why would you want your SA to take aggro away from you? If you're set up for tanking you're better off battening down the hatches, taking the aggro away from the SA so he can deal all the dmg without dying fast. Your healer should keep you up anyway.

If you're set up as DPS however it's very useful to have the SA taunting and taking the heat while you get on with your highest DPS rotation. However if you're DPSing there's probably someone else tanking so, you don't need to do that I guess?

If the issue is soloing, well the solo dungeons are so easy now you don't need no tank. Almost all the solo dungeon bosses can get a mega CC with Negate Magic anyway if you need a few seconds respite.

I'm sure it's been said before 100 times but a balanced solution would be having two different morphs. So compared to the base skill...
Morph 1: More Damage, Less Health (Glass Cannon)
Morph 2: Less Dmg, More HP, Taunt (Tank)

NorthernFury

andrantos wrote: »

Sorcs can get an increased combat hp passive that stacks for every daedric summoning ability equipped. It either maxes at 20 or 30 percent. But 20-30 per ability can be quite spiffy... Especially considering the line has at least 2 tank worthy abilities.

...and you end up losing the bar slot to a crappy summoned pet.

xaraan

Maverick827 wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

As a non sorc tank playing with sorcs, I'm glad for the nerf since bosses can get temporary immunity to taunts if taunted more than four times in ten seconds. It could really screw up tanking if someone throws that down. And, when playing alone on my sorc, this had to be one of the best ultis in the game, since it was like having a tank in your pocket.

It's still does the same damage as before, just doesn't tank for you and if you are the tank, then aren't you tanking? If you were depending on it to tank for you as the tank, that's not really what those other ultimates you listed are good for, they just do damage, just like the storm atronach. I probably don't see the problem since I don't know your playstyle. There are also other good ultimates to use from guilds, soul, alliance war that can be helpful tank wise.

I used it to tank in a pinch when I was low or we were swarmed. Think of it like a damage shield. The boss has to attack through the Atranoch while I can recover.

You say that there are other good ultimates but that is incorrect. Barrier from PvP is the only other decent ultimate for boss tanking, but it is very time consuming to obtain. It is unrealistic and unfair to force a PvEer to get a PvP ultimate to use in PvE when other classes get multiple good tanking ultimates.

I see what you are saying about comparing it to the other ultimates (I saw your post elsewhere in the thread where you break down what the others do) and I might agree that perhaps now they should lower the cost of storm at. a bit or provide it with another effect - but that effect should not be a taunt.

Many of the other ultimates I talked about are useful, I've made use of every single one of my ultimates (both in class ultis and out of class ones) at various times when tanking - it's all situational. But if you are looking for something to do the tanking for you, then that is where I disagree. Perhaps, I know I'm repeating myself here, but they should find some other buff to add, maybe a snare or something else to add now that the taunt is gone to give it another benefit.

andrantos

NorthernFury wrote: »

andrantos wrote: »

Sorcs can get an increased combat hp passive that stacks for every daedric summoning ability equipped. It either maxes at 20 or 30 percent. But 20-30 per ability can be quite spiffy... Especially considering the line has at least 2 tank worthy abilities.

...and you end up losing the bar slot to a crappy summoned pet.

or an armor buff or the curse or the dmg shield which are more useful for tanking than a summoned pet.

Maverick827

andrantos wrote: »

And as I stated... we can already fulfill any role. If I want run as healer, outside of an ultimate, all my abilities come from non-sorcerer skill lines. We don't really have a good ultimate for healing (outside some really unlikely conditions on a morph). That doesn't make me incapable of healing does it? I simply adjust stat allocations and gear selections to accommodate our lack of native healing options (which other classes have).

I was under the impression Flawless Dawnbreaker was a great ultimate for healers because the weapon damage affects staff heals. If this is not the case, then Sorcorer healers need a useful ultimate, too.

xaraan wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

As a non sorc tank playing with sorcs, I'm glad for the nerf since bosses can get temporary immunity to taunts if taunted more than four times in ten seconds. It could really screw up tanking if someone throws that down. And, when playing alone on my sorc, this had to be one of the best ultis in the game, since it was like having a tank in your pocket.

It's still does the same damage as before, just doesn't tank for you and if you are the tank, then aren't you tanking? If you were depending on it to tank for you as the tank, that's not really what those other ultimates you listed are good for, they just do damage, just like the storm atronach. I probably don't see the problem since I don't know your playstyle. There are also other good ultimates to use from guilds, soul, alliance war that can be helpful tank wise.

I used it to tank in a pinch when I was low or we were swarmed. Think of it like a damage shield. The boss has to attack through the Atranoch while I can recover.

You say that there are other good ultimates but that is incorrect. Barrier from PvP is the only other decent ultimate for boss tanking, but it is very time consuming to obtain. It is unrealistic and unfair to force a PvEer to get a PvP ultimate to use in PvE when other classes get multiple good tanking ultimates.

I see what you are saying about comparing it to the other ultimates (I saw your post elsewhere in the thread where you break down what the others do) and I might agree that perhaps now they should lower the cost of storm at. a bit or provide it with another effect - but that effect should not be a taunt.

Many of the other ultimates I talked about are useful, I've made use of every single one of my ultimates (both in class ultis and out of class ones) at various times when tanking - it's all situational. But if you are looking for something to do the tanking for you, then that is where I disagree. Perhaps, I know I'm repeating myself here, but they should find some other buff to add, maybe a snare or something else to add now that the taunt is gone to give it another benefit.

I don't agree that having something else temporarily tank for you is a bad thing, but I'd take any defensive perk at this point that isn't armor or spell resist (which are easily capped).

Maverick827

andrantos wrote: »

NorthernFury wrote: »

andrantos wrote: »

Sorcs can get an increased combat hp passive that stacks for every daedric summoning ability equipped. It either maxes at 20 or 30 percent. But 20-30 per ability can be quite spiffy... Especially considering the line has at least 2 tank worthy abilities.

...and you end up losing the bar slot to a crappy summoned pet.

or an armor buff or the curse or the dmg shield which are more useful for tanking than a summoned pet.

Sorc tanks would already be using both armor buffs. Daedric Curse does not aid in tanking in any way, and Conjured Ward is not potent enough to be worth using.

Regardless, this is a discussion about Ultimates. Right now my Sorcorer can have no ultimate slotted and be just as useful to the group. This is a problem.

andrantos

I guess I might as well give up on healing too since sorcs have no ultimate with substantial healing capabilities, let alone an ability with any sort of substantial healing capabilities.

Maverick827

andrantos wrote: »

I guess I might as well give up on healing too since sorcs have no ultimate with substantial healing capabilities, let alone an ability with any sort of substantial healing capabilities.

Please stop with this fallacious argument. Just because a nerf or shortcoming does not render a class literally useless doesn't mean that there isn't a problem that should be addressed.

Holycannoli

andrantos wrote: »

However, the change implies that the ability wasn't working the way it should. Nowhere in its description does it say it'll get insta-hate.

No, it implies that some people were complaining that it was interfering with how they wanted to play, as in the constant taunting from multiple atronachs was affecting trial encounters or they want SA as a DPS ability and taunting got it killed too fast.

Maverick827

Holycannoli wrote: »

andrantos wrote: »

However, the change implies that the ability wasn't working the way it should. Nowhere in its description does it say it'll get insta-hate.

No, it implies that some people were complaining that it was interfering with how they wanted to play, as in the constant taunting from multiple atronachs was affecting trial encounters or they want SA as a DPS ability and taunting got it killed too fast.

Which again begs the question, why are those players more important? Why can't a compromise be reached?

poodlemasterb16_ESO

It does make quite a difference to my glass canon Vampire Witch. It's her single boss Ultimate and if he just chases her around anyway, it loses much of it's utility.

She has less health than anything in the room, nearly all the time, and her ability to do damage is all she has, well and a little thing called drain, but it won't work on bosses.

Still she was facerolling Coldharbour so somehow we'll deal with it.

GnatB

andrantos wrote: »

This ability was never intended to be a taunt or a decoy or a damage shield. If you can't solo without it, you have bigger problems at hand. If you are unable to tank without it, you also have bigger problems at hand.

Says who? The fact that it had a taunt strongly suggests you are wrong. It WAS intended to be such. Now, apparently, they've changed their mind.

That said, I don't know if/how this will affect me. My summoner is only lvl 18, and I haven't played her since this change. And even then I think I've only used SA twice. I'm concerned though that, outside of grouping, since it no longer taunts, and still can't move, it's utility for soloing seems extremely dubious. It'll be a significantly more complicated process to make use of it, as you'll have to do something to keep the mobs locked into it's range. Whether that's using an immobalize, or kiting around it in a circle, or simply tanking whatever.

Psychobunni

I too can't stand this change. I am not supposed to be a tank in the least. Playing PVE it is what kept the bosses "too big" to knock back or lock down off of me. Now I have to request help for the world bosses I could have easily solo'd before My Sorcerer was the only toon type I even enjoyed playing and now I'm hating this too.

KariTR

NorthernFury wrote: »

If the Storm Atronach taunt is the only way someone can solo their Sorc, then I say they are doing it wrong. Try some different skills/morphs.

Soloing a Sorc is still easy.

I'd say they were probably AoE'ing in melee range?

I play my sorc long-range and it has made no difference to my playstyle. Even doing more damage than my pets, the mobs will rarely cover the distance to come to me as long as my pets are attacking/doing some damage.

Jimm_ay

sooo logically, if I just summoned a giant stone thing that shoots lightning...I am pretty sure it would draw the agro of anything...

Vahrokh

Snit wrote: »

The 10% of players doing endgame raids were suffering a minor inconvenience. That evidently could not stand. It was therefore nerfed for everyone else.

This is typical for MMO's. C'est la (virtual) vie.

With the difference, that usually the other MMOs don't have any flexibility.

In ESO? All they needed to do was...

... add a third morph that just did not have the taunt component.

Voilà, a 5 minutes fix that would make everyone happy.

But no, it takes so much of a genius to even get the concept.

andrantos

GnatB wrote: »

andrantos wrote: »

This ability was never intended to be a taunt or a decoy or a damage shield. If you can't solo without it, you have bigger problems at hand. If you are unable to tank without it, you also have bigger problems at hand.

Says who? The fact that it had a taunt strongly suggests you are wrong. It WAS intended to be such. Now, apparently, they've changed their mind.

That said, I don't know if/how this will affect me. My summoner is only lvl 18, and I haven't played her since this change. And even then I think I've only used SA twice. I'm concerned though that, outside of grouping, since it no longer taunts, and still can't move, it's utility for soloing seems extremely dubious. It'll be a significantly more complicated process to make use of it, as you'll have to do something to keep the mobs locked into it's range. Whether that's using an immobalize, or kiting around it in a circle, or simply tanking whatever.

We actually don't know what the original intent was for this ability. Its description only highlights the damage capabilities, the stun (in addition to the added aoe for one morph and increased hp for the other). It is not described as a decoy or a glorified damage shield.

If it was intended to immediately grab aggro, I imagine it would have been in the description (no different than any other aggro grabbing ability in the game). In one interview, a dev specifically stated that the only taunts in the game were put on non-class skill lines (1h and shield, undaunted).

Do nerf's suck?! Yes they do!. Was this deserved? Honestly, I wouldn't be able to tell you because I never needed it for tanking or soloing. It sounds like its insta-aggro capabilities were both a pain for some folks and useful for others.

Are sorcerers broken because of it? Heck no!

Maverick827

andrantos wrote: »

GnatB wrote: »

andrantos wrote: »

This ability was never intended to be a taunt or a decoy or a damage shield. If you can't solo without it, you have bigger problems at hand. If you are unable to tank without it, you also have bigger problems at hand.

Says who? The fact that it had a taunt strongly suggests you are wrong. It WAS intended to be such. Now, apparently, they've changed their mind.

That said, I don't know if/how this will affect me. My summoner is only lvl 18, and I haven't played her since this change. And even then I think I've only used SA twice. I'm concerned though that, outside of grouping, since it no longer taunts, and still can't move, it's utility for soloing seems extremely dubious. It'll be a significantly more complicated process to make use of it, as you'll have to do something to keep the mobs locked into it's range. Whether that's using an immobalize, or kiting around it in a circle, or simply tanking whatever.

We actually don't know what the original intent was for this ability. Its description only highlights the damage capabilities, the stun (in addition to the added aoe for one morph and increased hp for the other). It is not described as a decoy or a glorified damage shield.

If it was intended to immediately grab aggro, I imagine it would have been in the description (no different than any other aggro grabbing ability in the game). In one interview, a dev specifically stated that the only taunts in the game were put on non-class skill lines (1h and shield, undaunted).

Do nerf's suck?! Yes they do!. Was this deserved? Honestly, I wouldn't be able to tell you because I never needed it for tanking or soloing. It sounds like its insta-aggro capabilities were both a pain for some folks and useful for others.

Are sorcerers broken because of it? Heck no!

Does that mean we shouldn't voice our concerns and try to get compnsation? Heck no!

GnatB

Jimm_ay wrote: »

sooo logically, if I just summoned a giant stone thing that shoots lightning...I am pretty sure it would draw the agro of anything...

Maybe anything stupid. Not sure in PvP, but in PvE most pets poof when the master dies, and the master tends to be a lot squishier. Admittedly, making mobs smart enough to do the same thing us PC characters do tends to make playing a summoner type character unfun.

Personally, I've always thought of "taunting" as an abstract way of implementing an entity effectively physically interposing it's body between the tauntee and whomever the taunter is trying to protect. Since, you know, most games tend not to have collision between mobile entities for obvious reasons, and even if they did, lag/etc. would make trying to actually physically interpose iffy.

andrantos

Maverick827 wrote: »

Does that mean we shouldn't voice our concerns and try to get compnsation? Heck no!

I actually agree with you. Yes, voice your concerns.

However, at least for myself, I have just been providing constructive feedback on assertions made that essentially tanking/soloing for sorcerers is somehow broken and that sorcerers should feature a "tanking" ultimate just because other classes do. I'm not arguing that SA shouldn't feature an agro or taunt mechanic. I'm simply countering the assumption that this ability was vital to our soloing and tanking capabilities (it isn't).

My final points are as follows:
* Class abilities are not mirrored in design, theme or function. Just because one class has one ability does not mean another class or classes should feature something similar (ex: No class features the wealth and variety of CC as we sorcerers do)
* By design, the skill system encourages players to mix and match abilities and passives across all available skill lines. As such, sorcerers can be capable tanks, healers, dps' and everything in-between (with or without SA).
* The SA ability was never described to "taunt" or instagrab "agro" and it is feasible that the previous function was unintended or a bug
* If classes should natively support each role... where are my beefy heals?

poodlemasterb16_ESO

It's hard to do solo DPS while running from a boss. I need some tankiness from my Clanfear and SA to be able to play my glass canon well. The Clanfear is not bad but the last 2 bosses I dropped 'big sparky' on just ignored him and chased me.

A glass canon is one built for power, not toughness. I can play her well and will get by the SA nerf but really it is a pain. He was very useful.