smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

[
You know, McDonald's has served billions, but the food is still garbage. Carebears tout this around like a badge, like you should be proud that a nice chunk of people don't want any sort of challenge in their gameplay.

This dumbing down is mostly due to devs wanting their games to be more accessible to the average person. People that aren't "gamer nerds" and probably didn't game as kids and therefore aren't used to a high difficulty of play. It drags the rest of us down, frankly.

However, I doubt your knowledge of MMO finances and your ability to predict how a game would go when catering to that audience. Especially since games like WoW have pvp threaded into quite a bit of the game. UO also still manages to be p2p despite targeting this small audience. (No I'm not saying the base is big, but they are making a profit and have been for a very long time.)

I used to play a MUD that was open world pvp that raked in a ton of cash being pay to win (they preferred to call it pay for perks.) People would drop $10k in one go, and the game was/is very profitable.

It is quite possible to have a successful game and target open world pvp, and -possibly- full loot rights, as well.

LOL.

One man's garbage is another man's treasure. Plenty of folks actually -enjoy- McDonald's food. To me, they have the best fries in the universe. To the guy down the street, or someone like you, their food is 'garbage'. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean you're 'right', nor does it even mean you are in any sort of 'majority' with folks of the same mindset.

Not having PVP is not at all a sign of 'dumbing down'. That's just a stupid remark to make. "No world PVP? They're just dumbing-down the game!". LOL. Hilarious. Most likely, the PVP is minor because the number of people who want PVP is minor. Very few games are built around PVP - EVE? Wasn't Shadowbane built on PVP? Darkfall? Is EVE the only 'major' title built around the concept? While the rest of the gaming universe is PVE based, with dashes of PVP included?

I know, you'll fall back on the 'numbers don't mean anything - McDondalds food still sucks' argument, but these companies have to pay their bills somehow, and they probably know a little bit more about the market than you and I do.

WoW has "PVP threaded into quite a bit of the game"? Really? Not the last time I played. WoW is not built around PVP. Nor was EQ. Nor was DAOC, even though such games -have- PVP, but designed in a way that PVErs could still have fun, too.

I just don't get the entire PVP insistence on wanting to grief, PK, and/or kill every single player out there. There are other people like you who want to PVP - so GO DO IT. Cyrodil is open. Go PVP with like-minded folks to your heart's content. If carebears want to carebear, why is your $15 more 'right' than theirs? Why can't both sides enjoy the game in their own way? Are PVPers just so insanely selfish that ruining someone else's enjoyment of the game is more important than that person having a good time, too?

As for having a successful game that targets open world PVP with full loot rights... how many successful versions of this type of game exist? Not even EVE qualifies for that, really (since Hi-sec is supposed to be 'non-pvp'). Have you given Darkfall a try?

While certain activities may open you up to PvP outside of Cyrodiil, we are not considering world PvP.[/quote]

Thanks so much for the clarification, ZOS_AlanG!

Provided that there were repurcussions of guards attacking anyone who broke the law in cities.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

kassandratheclericb14_ESO wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

Elencha wrote: »

Wow, this thread got hostile quickly.
Honestly, I don't think anyone really thinks that everyone who likes PvP automatically wants to harass people. And I don't think anyone really thinks that everyone who doesn't want to automatically wants everything customized to their needs. Perhaps I am overly optimistic.
I do think that PvE, by it's very nature, is non-disruptive to the experience of other players, annoying pets not withstanding. The annoying pets are, as they say, the cost of doing business.
PvP, on the other hand, can be either disruptive on non-disruptive depending on its implementation and use. I don't think it's out of line to request the exclusion of PvP to only those who want to participate. I understand that at least some feel that doing so means they won't feel as in danger if they are in a specific PvP instance.This can of course be avoided by a simple opt-in option in the open world which defaults to off. Sure, more annoying graphical interruptions, but again, the cost of doing business.
I'm withholding judgement on the justice system until I actually see the implementation, but I can see that going bad ways if done certain ways. (I almost said correctly, but my way isn't necessarily the right way. :P )

well if I can get called a sociopath, pardon me if I return the psychological analysis

kassandratheclericb14_ESO wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

Ninnghizhidda wrote: »

In modern "MMO gaming" there seems to be some trend, fortunately only expressed by a small, yet very vocal, minority, towards inflicting the maximum amount of grief, discomfort and harassment to other "fellow" players, and advocating to make this the norm.

Fortunately it isn't happening and it is never going to happen, certainly not in a first-class AAA title that caters for hundreds of thousands if not millions of players. Those who need a self-ego boost through their "awesome" pixels can do so in specified areas or servers provided for this purpose, and be thankful for it too.

The rest of the players, who happen to be the majority, can then mind their business and spend their time for their fun and entertainment without having to deal with some "unstable" person hell-bent to spend their own miserable life trying to infect others with that misery. Especially, in a game like ESO where we actually pay for our entertainment.

So, in short, stay in your secluded area / server, which is specifically provided for you, and is actually carefully made and regularly updated, do your thing, have your fun, and let all the others have theirs too.

Considering how packed cyrodiil gets, I'm not convinced carebears are entirely in the majority, or if they are it is by a narrow margin.

These griefers you speak of, yes they are in the minority. But not every pvp is a griefer, so it seems you missed some people in your post.

Also, there's no mental problems with someone just because they are a "griefer" (you guys throw the name around like it is going out of style) it's just a different playstyle. People have spoken here, carebears, that didn't care if they had a positive effect on the game or not, there are people like that in pvp AND pve.

Also, when they "Regularly" update cyrodiil, let me know. It seems like 3/4s of their fixes are always to pve. Heck, they even made it easier because apparently you guys can't even handle a challenge in your chosen part of the game.

I am so very hurt that you think us cowards and unable to handle challenges in life in video games....

I just looked back at this. Could you bold the part where I said you were a coward? It's simply not there. I assumed you were responding to someone else but it's clear you are making things up to get points with your bros.

I will apologize for clicking the wrong quote but not for my words in general. I think I can handle whatever challenges a game holds as my desire to do so in no way reflects on my ability (since I should in honesty respond to your exact quote.) And BTW I don't have any "bros" and am far past caring what anyone thinks about me on a video game site.

So you have your apology on the misquote. Have a lovely day.

The way you phrased it it sounds like you still think I did something wrong. Your words in general should not even be targeted to me. Therefore, there's zero need to reemphasize your point, since there's nothing in there that you are countering.

Sometimes it's okay to just admit your wrong, no need to try to save face.

Also, I have had a ton of posts deleted from this thread because of content removed that they were responding to. I'm so curious what got deleted.

I said what I said and I commented on your actual comment on my last post. You are free to interpret that and my need to reemphasize however you feel necessary. I apologized for quoting you in that passage. It is unfortunate that I occasionally start a post, navigate out for some reason and the draft remains. *shrug*

And I did admit I was wrong...I quoted you erroneously. I'm not sure what more you think needs said.

On an unrelated note:

I have said my piece and given my opinions in this thread. I don't think I am going to change anyone's mind or mine be changed. I think if anything my opinion of world PvP has been reinforced. Though forums are no way to always judge player attitude, at lease those that have voted in this seem not to want this (a rough 2/3rds.) Who knows what will happen in the far future.

As I have a husband, three teenage kids, three dogs, and all kinds of things to do I will wish this thread a farewell. Hopefully I can squeeze in some playtime before my bed calls to me.

*waves*

ZOS_AlanG wrote: »

Delith wrote: »

Too bad the justice system is coming and there's noting any of you can do to stop it.

Hehehehe. HEHEHEHEHHEHEHE.

At QuakeCon, Paul Sage discussed the work being done on the in-development justice system, including the possibility of hunting down players who have a bounty. Only players who have chosen to participate in the activity of thievery will have a bounty on them, and be attackable, and only if you are a guard.

While certain activities may open you up to PvP outside of Cyrodiil, we are not considering world PvP.

---

ZOS_AlanG Thanks so much for this input ... it would be ever so lovely if you could comment for Provisioners about how it would be implemented so as not to mess with their obtaining supplies out of various containers? They seem very worried Alan !

Mujuro wrote: »

@ZOS_AlanG I'd very much like to see bounty hunters be able to confiscate any stolen goods from those we hunt upon killing them. After all, if NPC guards can do this, so should the bounty hunters (as they are, in a sense, "deputized" to hunt down the criminals). Indeed, if this happens, I plan to camp popular motif/provisioning camping spots ... not to farm items myself, but to farm the farmers, who will now be branded as criminal scum.

Good idea.

Which means it will never, ever happen.

Archaole wrote: »

The only way I could see PvP looting in any way be fair or fun is if you defeated someone equal to or above your level. And if there were more people involved in the killing, then they should roll for it.

Not good at all. I can see gold maybe 100g but not loot. If criminal is caught offender will have to pay back g.

I can't find a way to change my forum handle, but I proclaim that, henceforth, I shall be known as Cheer Bear.

Okay, now, where were we in this argument again? Are we still at the "my way or the highway" phase? Or have we reached the point of both sides insisting that there is no highway option?

The past few pages have been cluttered with so much vitriol, I can't even figure out what discussion we're having anymore.

The only way I'd accept PVP in PVE play was if they did the outlaw system where players who stole from or killed NPC's would be killable by players ONLY if they chose to do so. It would be kind of fun to occasionally impromptu have a fight with an outlawed player. Other than that I do NOT want open PVP, never.

For all of those saying that it would ruin immersion, did you forget that all of Tamriel is filled with 3 warring factions, 4 if you count the following of Molag Bal?

Enkil wrote: »

It's quite easy to satisfy both tastes.. why do people try to fight each other about this concept? Just make a PvP toggle and everyone will be with like-minded folks....

Its because a certain subset of PVPers simply are not happy unless they can claim PVE victims that want nothing to do with PVP, because just claiming PVE victims in Cyrodil that optin to possible PVP does not stoke their psych. By all means give them open world PVP using a login flag, and also a RP server and a RP-PVP server and a troll the trolls server and only my friends or even solo servers. Sadly that originally promised login phasing option never happened because it affects load balancing technology of megaserver or some such excuse. But they will indeed have to figure out megaserver issues once they realize too late that many TES fans want to play assassins and thieves in a PVE environment without being forced into PVP, as those PVE types that can tolerate broken stam builds and hard VR will not hesitate to drop sub over forced PVP in PVE areas. Basically any nightblade that RPs their char archtype as a sneaky stealing and killing type will end up flagged for PVP, with the excuse it was like that in past TES which is simply not true because PVP multiplayer has never been in TES before.

I want PVPers that can only be happy with all open Tamriel PVP to have their own environment they can play in with themselves, just like Cyrodil they can do it in all the alliances. If they want to murder their alliance PC/NPC members, let them be bountied. If they want VR rewritten so they can invade and kill the enemy alliances other players let them. Any PVE player should never be exposed to it, there should never be any player 'guards' camping in their world.

The only way to do it is by login choice, and not by forced choice of roleplaying a PVE criminal, or unintentional choice of that barrel has the purple recipe I have been looking for. But those posting for PVP will not settle for consenting PVP, which is why I am with the majority that say no open world PVP because it is clear what they really want is non consenting PVE involved in PVP.

Enkil wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Enkil wrote: »

PvP toggle is all that is needed so that each and every player can say either:

• "Hey, I like going about my PvE with the added sense of danger that being vulnerable to attack brings"
• "I just want to focus on killing mobs and be totally enveloped in the story without getting ganked"

It's quite easy to satisfy both tastes.. why do people try to fight each other about this concept? Just make a PvP toggle and everyone will be with like-minded folks....

They tried that with SWTOR, it didn't work.

What you got was greifers activating the PVP toggle, then getting in the way of other peoples attacks, which then automatically activate them for PVP.

And you can guarantee that ZOS would use something similar if not identical.

No, the solution is to put all the PVP in one area, seperated entirely from PVE, so that if you want PVP you go do it, otherwise you leave it alone. I know we'll call it Cyrodil.

so some *** Dev's couldn't figure out 1+1=2 and now every game from here to eternity must segregate their development and try to appeal to opposite ends of the spectrum when in reality everyone is a player?

Sorry.... fails simple logic test...

If they did it so that it could only be activated by the player toggling, then I'ld agree with you, and we could all have PVP toggles.

But experience for me says otherwise, but hey maybe I'm wrong and these Devs could actually come up with a system that doesn't leave me fuming.

That is why it has to be a login phase so that optin PVP is only phased with themselves and never with PVE, forced PVP by jumping front of PVE attacks can never happen then. PVE-RP criminals are only subject to NPC guards and never player guards if they do not flag their login as PVP phase. Basically exactly the same as Cyrodil login, just give access to Tamriel-PVP or Tamriel-PVE, like most MMOs do.

I personally do not buy the megaserver excuse, because Defiance uses an openworld megaserver, and if you want to world PVP (they call it Shadow War) you just go to an NPC to get flagged and phased out of the PVE instance. The PVE player can see where a current fight is going on in their map, but never actually interacts with the PVP players unless they login into the Shadow War. It is a fair compromise that recognizes that free for all full loot PVP that forces PVE/PVP together is a very hardcore <10% niche market that will never survive in a AAA mass market.