What WoW Devs Learned The Hard Way About NPC Killing

babylon · July 2014

Knootewoot wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

Knootewoot wrote: »

you don't even know of you CAN attack the banker or quest givers, and i dount you can..

We DO know people can attack the banker - a ZOS employee stated that in this very thread - bankers can be attacked and can react to nearby attacks on other NPCs, they just can't be killed.

Here is the relevant quote below -

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

The current plan is that important NPCs (quest NPCs, bankers, stablemasters, merchants) will not be killable when the Justice System goes live. However, they will be attackable, react accordingly, and you will incur bounty for doing so.

This means that we will be knocked out of the banking window any time the banker gets hit or any nearby NPC gets hit, something that will be very disruptive to all players of this game.

I am also thinking it will be very handy for disrupting competing guilds when they hire the guild merchant guys.

Ok i missed that part sorry for that. But for me the game gets better with this. Everybody wants to smack the banker in Glenumbra in the face, i am sure.

Yeah I'd like to smack a few bankers in the face too, but not at the expense of everyone who is trying to do some banking.

rotiferuk · July 2014

Knootewoot wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

Knootewoot wrote: »

you don't even know of you CAN attack the banker or quest givers, and i dount you can..

We DO know people can attack the banker - a ZOS employee stated that in this very thread - bankers can be attacked and can react to nearby attacks on other NPCs, they just can't be killed.

Here is the relevant quote below -

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

The current plan is that important NPCs (quest NPCs, bankers, stablemasters, merchants) will not be killable when the Justice System goes live. However, they will be attackable, react accordingly, and you will incur bounty for doing so.

This means that we will be knocked out of the banking window any time the banker gets hit or any nearby NPC gets hit, something that will be very disruptive to all players of this game.

I am also thinking it will be very handy for disrupting competing guilds when they hire the guild merchant guys.

Ok i missed that part sorry for that. But for me the game gets better with this. Everybody wants to smack the banker in Glenumbra in the face, i am sure.

I don't want to assault the banker.

SootyTX · July 2014

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

The current plan is that important NPCs (quest NPCs, bankers, stablemasters, merchants) will not be killable when the Justice System goes live. However, they will be attackable, react accordingly, and you will incur bounty for doing so.

So in other words they will be perfect targets for griefers, preventing use of bank, stopping quest turn ins etc.

The more I hear, the more I think the 'Justice' system will the nail in the coffin for me. Sadly, ZoS seems bound and determined to ignore lessons learned in other games.

reagen_lionel · July 2014

Also, most quest givers are individually player phased.

moxiesauce · July 2014

10 pages and people still going on about griefing people using the bank, LOL. Just have A.) important NPC's phased B.) don't have it interrupt people using the bank. In both situations people can turn and kill the *** that just acquired a bounty. Can't believe how much QQ is from the justice system, It wont even be out til what? December, probably longer?

Limbus · July 2014

Audigy wrote: »

Innocente wrote: »

WoW developers learned that despite whatever safeguards are put in place, high level players will travel to low level areas and simply wipe out every guard, NPC, and Quest Giver they can find. And they will keep them dead for hours on end.

Bottom line is that the griefers will simply ruin the PvE game for pretty much all the non-sociopathic player base.

Now, ZOS will eventually hear the laments of the player base, and be forced to get rid of the ability to kill NPCs. But a lot of damage will be done to ESO during the time that this behavior is allowed in the game.

ZOS would be wise to LEARN from the mistakes of others and not repeat them.

Yes Blizzard learned the hard way, they lost 7 million of their subs in the process

I don't want to offend you but your carebear mode just doesn't fit to MMOs. If players can not kill important NPC´s then the whole reason for the justice system is revoked.

We need a living world, we need interaction with players and one way to do this is world pvp. If a guild sieges a city, then everyone on the server has to work together to fight them off. If a sneaky Rogue camps a merchant, then players have to work together to find him. This is MMO stuff, this is what made UO, Vanilla WOW or DAOC so good.

I see the justice system failing before its even in the game, because of demands that have only one goal " the destruction" of ESO.

I feel very sorry for the DEVs, they have so many good thoughts but people at this forum just keep trashing them because they wont accept that this is an MMO and not Tetris.

So says the griefer, you would be the first one to camp a low zone and kill the bankers. And what made DAOC so good was its pvp (on the non hardcore server), you couldnt kill npcs in that game

Dcaliber · July 2014

I just fear running into a city to see it no different from Cyrodil. Cities are supposed to be safe. Seeing NPCs dying once in a while is Ok. We just need proper penalties so bored V12 players don't mass murder everything.

The_Sadist · July 2014

It was stated the important NPCs would be immune to death, I'm not sure if that extends to immune from attack but if it does, and I'm assuming it does, people need to calm down and actually read before posting.

My issue is what's the incentive to attack NPCs? Will they drop loot and yield exp? If you become infamous enough will you be approached by some 'evil' NPCs and gain access to darker quests?

How will they balance provisioning? Will they create new nodes and whatnot or will you have to be a thief to level the skill? Will there be new ways to get motifs and what have you without resorting to stealing?

It should be an interesting change.

Haewk · July 2014

Dcaliber wrote: »

I just fear running into a city to see it no different from Cyrodil. Cities are supposed to be safe. Seeing NPCs dying once in a while is Ok. We just need proper penalties so bored V12 players don't mass murder everything.

I just really don't see the point. So when it comes out it is a bit novel and people do it and pay fines. Then you get the "lifers" who compete for the biggest bounty or guilds where every member is "red".

How many players is going to subscribe to that playstyle? How is this going to be "fun"? How much time and effort are they investing into something which has pretty vocal and emotional opposition?

Aren't they bringing out an entire new PvP centric city?

If they bring out a justice system where penalties are harsh, rewards are low and the system is completely separated from PvE then uptake will be very low and I don't understand the time and resources invested into something that will be a curiosity and nothing more.

If they want to increase the participation in the system they need to find some way to attract players to it. Higher rewards? Unique rewards? Guild quests? As soon as the rewards become too attractive the PvE centric player base will feel alienated which is shown by all the threads and concerns about the justice system.

So now they have to try and find some middle ground to try and balance two distinct sets of player expectations to gain participation in a system they want to force down our throats whether we want it or not.

Vahrokh · July 2014

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

So every 10 seconds some guy attacks the banker and kicks you out of the bank screen. Awesome.

This is why we'll have testing on the PTS.

I will salute you and the others working on this for the good intentions , but forgive me if i dont trust the PTS to grab the many bugs that can happen.

If anything , history has more than once proven to us that many bugs seem to only hit when the game goes live.

This happened many times until now.

What PTS would be for: finding bugs / exploits and report them to ZoS.

What PTS became in modern eras (expecially with EvE Online precedents in sight): finding bugs / exploits before everyone else AND keep them dear to use when game goes in release mode. Use them heavy and early so by the time the devs find and close the "surprisingly not detected" loop holes, those guys have already banked and profited.
EvE teaches.

Rodoscrolls · July 2014

loving this game so far, but allowing players to kill npcs is likely the dumbest idea yet.Not very thought out and I can imagine if this goes live having it ruin a lot of players enjoyment and game time ,and in todays world, game time can be very precious and little to a lot of people.

very bad idea.........

isengrimb16_ESO · July 2014

The_Sadist wrote: »

It was stated the important NPCs would be immune to death, I'm not sure if that extends to immune from attack but if it does, and I'm assuming it does, people need to calm down and actually read before posting.

My issue is what's the incentive to attack NPCs? Will they drop loot and yield exp? If you become infamous enough will you be approached by some 'evil' NPCs and gain access to darker quests?

How will they balance provisioning? Will they create new nodes and whatnot or will you have to be a thief to level the skill? Will there be new ways to get motifs and what have you without resorting to stealing?

It should be an interesting change.

They're immortal, but can be attacked, and will flinch/move/react when attacked. Which means your bank/vendor window is going to shut down if someone does attack them while you're dealing with them. Unless they have some mechanic to prevent this, but, no info from Zen.

What's the incentive to attack THESE NPCs? Griefing. If they have "special" NPCs (particularly ones with unique, obnoxious personalities that make you WANT to fight them), then there'd be no problem. No hard info from Zen.

No word on rewards, as far as I know. But I could see killing NPCs and stealing stuff being linked to DB and Thieves' Guild rep/quests. Again, no official info.

As for provisioning, the picture I'm getting is that one person can stand normally and loot a crate, while the next person can steal from that crate by stealthing - but there's NO confirmation from Zen on this either, this is just "assurances" by the random public, and you know how much THAT is worth. It's like a character in a movie telling his buds "everything will be all right" just before the UFO rains fire down on the entire Earth, killing every living thing.

-

Nox_Aeterna · July 2014

Vahrokh wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

So every 10 seconds some guy attacks the banker and kicks you out of the bank screen. Awesome.

This is why we'll have testing on the PTS.

I will salute you and the others working on this for the good intentions , but forgive me if i dont trust the PTS to grab the many bugs that can happen.

If anything , history has more than once proven to us that many bugs seem to only hit when the game goes live.

This happened many times until now.

What PTS would be for: finding bugs / exploits and report them to ZoS.

What PTS became in modern eras (expecially with EvE Online precedents in sight): finding bugs / exploits before everyone else AND keep them dear to use when game goes in release mode. Use them heavy and early so by the time the devs find and close the "surprisingly not detected" loop holes, those guys have already banked and profited.
EvE teaches.

Considering how things have been until now , im sad to agree.

Westcoast14_ESO · July 2014

The hardest part to work out will be the flagging system.

Anastasia · July 2014

The_Sadist wrote: »

It was stated the important NPCs would be immune to death, I'm not sure if that extends to immune from attack but if it does, and I'm assuming it does, people need to calm down and actually read before posting.

My issue is what's the incentive to attack NPCs? Will they drop loot and yield exp? If you become infamous enough will you be approached by some 'evil' NPCs and gain access to darker quests?

How will they balance provisioning? Will they create new nodes and whatnot or will you have to be a thief to level the skill? Will there be new ways to get motifs and what have you without resorting to stealing?

It should be an interesting change.

No, Paul specifically said important npc's would be un-killable, but would be attackable.

Anastasia · July 2014

The_Sadist wrote: »

It was stated the important NPCs would be immune to death, I'm not sure if that extends to immune from attack but if it does, and I'm assuming it does, people need to calm down and actually read before posting.

My issue is what's the incentive to attack NPCs? Will they drop loot and yield exp? If you become infamous enough will you be approached by some 'evil' NPCs and gain access to darker quests?

How will they balance provisioning? Will they create new nodes and whatnot or will you have to be a thief to level the skill? Will there be new ways to get motifs and what have you without resorting to stealing?

It should be an interesting change.

The incentive I imagine are skills and/or coin somehow wrapped up in mission kills or quests from DB or Thieves guilds of course.

Spottswoode · July 2014

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

The current plan is that important NPCs (quest NPCs, bankers, stablemasters, merchants) will not be killable when the Justice System goes live. However, they will be attackable, react accordingly, and you will incur bounty for doing so.

The relevant information there fails to indicate that a total collapse of the banking system is imminent. Also, apparently you guys just sit around for hours banking as opposed to playing the game. (And before you start, I use every crafting discipline and have 4 alts to manage them. I still manage to get my banking done in all of 5 minutes, hirelings, sorting, and all, between all 5 characters. Most of that is load times between sorting.) However, since this is the only remotely legitimate complaint here, perhaps they should just make bankers unattackable?

http://www.pcgamer.com/2014/07/23/righting-the-ship-a-look-at-elder-scrolls-onlines-future/
It's apparently obvious people are looking forward to this. Not just pvpers and trolls either.

jwboudreau1b16_ESO · July 2014

isengrimb16_ESO wrote: »

jwboudreau1b16_ESO wrote: »

Innocente wrote: »

An interesting video, but assumptions are the mother of all failures. And here, the assumption is that a single player is involved. How long do you think that guard would have lasted against six to ten VR12 players?

Like I said, they will sweep through these towns like a plague, clear them, and keep them cleared.

It will be great if Vendors, Quest NPCs, and other important ones are unkillable, but still. The developers assume to much about the behavior of internet peoples, I think. History has shown that if there is a way to grief game play, it will be done.

In a single player game, this kind of mechanic is fine. But in an MMO or Multi-Player Theme Park game, it is insane.

lol I love how you say that assumptions are the mother of all failures when you are, yourself, assuming. I don't see why vet rank 12 players would sweep the towns. They haven't given any real indication to say that killing NPCs will give you any kind of experience... also, you can't kill quest givers, so who cares if the rest of the NPCs are killed? They'll respawn quickly enough, I'm sure. And who cares if several vet level characters attack a single guard? There will be more guards and also other players acting as Bounty Hunters who can stop the Vet 12 guys' tyranny.

You can't judge a game solely on the failures of games before it. ZoS is made up of industry veterans whom I'm sure have put a lot of thought into the system.

YOU'RE SURE that respawns will be so fast, we won't notice. Sorry if I don't take your word for it. ZOS, where are you to clear this up, instead of just censoring out names, hmmm?

Oh, you most certainly don't have to. They've taken a lot of time with this system. It would surprise me if they released it and it broke the game. Nobody on here seems to have any faith in the developers.

We'll all have to wait and see what happens. Why can't everyone just be cautiously optimistic? When the game launched, everyone was mad that there wasn't an option to attack NPC's, and now everyone's upset because you'll be able to. If the system turns out to be as broken as everyone assumes it will be, we can all break out the pitch forks then.

RedMiniStapler · July 2014

there's only one banker that i wouldn't mind getting killed over and over and over. that one who constantly says 'neither a borrower nor a lender be'

Samadhi · July 2014

Spottswoode wrote: »

...

http://www.pcgamer.com/2014/07/23/righting-the-ship-a-look-at-elder-scrolls-onlines-future/
It's apparently obvious people are looking forward to this. Not just pvpers and trolls either.

That was worth the read, thank you for sharing.

Knootewoot · July 2014

isengrimb16_ESO wrote: »

The_Sadist wrote: »

It was stated the important NPCs would be immune to death, I'm not sure if that extends to immune from attack but if it does, and I'm assuming it does, people need to calm down and actually read before posting.

My issue is what's the incentive to attack NPCs? Will they drop loot and yield exp? If you become infamous enough will you be approached by some 'evil' NPCs and gain access to darker quests?

How will they balance provisioning? Will they create new nodes and whatnot or will you have to be a thief to level the skill? Will there be new ways to get motifs and what have you without resorting to stealing?

It should be an interesting change.

They're immortal, but can be attacked, and will flinch/move/react when attacked. Which means your bank/vendor window is going to shut down if someone does attack them while you're dealing with them. Unless they have some mechanic to prevent this, but, no info from Zen.
-

How do you know this. how do you know the vendor/bank window will close. Show me a link where it sais it closed for other players.

Nobody knows how it will work because all we have seen is 1 minute of early development.

Have some faith in the dev's. I am sure they will be attackable but just with an animation and you get a bounty.
Maybe players currently engaged in conversation won't get booted, but just see the NPC crumble on the ground. Nobody knows.

Audigy · July 2014

Spottswoode wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

The current plan is that important NPCs (quest NPCs, bankers, stablemasters, merchants) will not be killable when the Justice System goes live. However, they will be attackable, react accordingly, and you will incur bounty for doing so.

The relevant information there fails to indicate that a total collapse of the banking system is imminent. Also, apparently you guys just sit around for hours banking as opposed to playing the game. (And before you start, I use every crafting discipline and have 4 alts to manage them. I still manage to get my banking done in all of 5 minutes, hirelings, sorting, and all, between all 5 characters. Most of that is load times between sorting.) However, since this is the only remotely legitimate complaint here, perhaps they should just make bankers unattackable?

http://www.pcgamer.com/2014/07/23/righting-the-ship-a-look-at-elder-scrolls-onlines-future/
It's apparently obvious people are looking forward to this. Not just pvpers and trolls either.

Agree. People who think we like the justice system because of trolling etc. need to wake up.

Such system have been in MMOs for two centuries and if we look back a few weeks many of the forum wanted to have it. Its part of ES, just like its part of the MMO genre.

Not even once in my long term MMO history did I encounter anything that would justify the Paranoia of some here.

As you said, people don't play "banker" but ESO. Even if a Banker would be dead or not accessible as he did run away - there is always another time. I wonder what people do if the bank in their city has closed, call the police?

Nox_Aeterna · July 2014

Audigy wrote: »

Spottswoode wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

The current plan is that important NPCs (quest NPCs, bankers, stablemasters, merchants) will not be killable when the Justice System goes live. However, they will be attackable, react accordingly, and you will incur bounty for doing so.

The relevant information there fails to indicate that a total collapse of the banking system is imminent. Also, apparently you guys just sit around for hours banking as opposed to playing the game. (And before you start, I use every crafting discipline and have 4 alts to manage them. I still manage to get my banking done in all of 5 minutes, hirelings, sorting, and all, between all 5 characters. Most of that is load times between sorting.) However, since this is the only remotely legitimate complaint here, perhaps they should just make bankers unattackable?

http://www.pcgamer.com/2014/07/23/righting-the-ship-a-look-at-elder-scrolls-onlines-future/
It's apparently obvious people are looking forward to this. Not just pvpers and trolls either.

Agree. People who think we like the justice system because of trolling etc. need to wake up.

Such system have been in MMOs for two centuries and if we look back a few weeks many of the forum wanted to have it. Its part of ES, just like its part of the MMO genre.

Not even once in my long term MMO history did I encounter anything that would justify the Paranoia of some here.

As you said, people don't play "banker" but ESO. Even if a Banker would be dead or not accessible as he did run away - there is always another time. I wonder what people do if the bank in their city has closed, call the police?

Nope , i go to the forums and tell zen about the problem.

While i dont have faith in the devs like the post above heh , i dont worry because , one way or the other , the issue will annoy tons of players if they allow people to kick others from the bank window.

The mod already said they wont allow people to kill important NPCs , that is quite nice.

If they allow people to grief and annoy others on something like the bank , where tons stay doing different things , tons will come to the forums and complain , which in turn will make them fix it anyway.

So in the end , there is no reason to worry , not because i trust the devs to do a good work at first , but because i trust them to change this after when they hear tons of players coming at them for the problem heh.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO · July 2014

Knootewoot wrote: »

Have some faith in the dev's

Those would be the same devs that gave us:

1) a bot infested game due to a total lack of anti-bot mechanics: and there are still loads of bots around Coldharbour and other areas

2) umpteen abusable/exploitable design flaws which allowed those that "abuse early, abuse often" to amass fortunes those coming after can never match, reached VR12 in a matter of a couple of days

3) that three months after release still can't fix several progress-blocking bugs

4) the VR system that only three months in had to be demolished due to lack of player support, thereby losing one of the devs' core 'visions'.

Yeah, I can see good reasons to "have faith in the devs".

fromtesonlineb16_ESO · July 2014

Audigy wrote: »

As you said, people don't play "banker" but ESO. Even if a Banker would be dead or not accessible as he did run away - there is always another time. I wonder what people do if the bank in their city has closed, call the police?

Specious analogies are specious.

Nazon_Katts · July 2014

They have no clue what they're doing and no idea what they're getting in to. I dunno, but I'm rather curious how long the bliss of ignorance might hold. I almost feel giddy in anticipation of the catastrophe to unfold.

Who knows what's true, but no one would see nor even try to listen to , to what has been said or what has been sad. For if there's no change and things don't change and I don't change, everything remains as always.

So we are and so we were, and nothing's ever been there
to learn.

babylon · July 2014

The_Sadist wrote: »

It was stated the important NPCs would be immune to death, I'm not sure if that extends to immune from attack but if it does, and I'm assuming it does, people need to calm down and actually read before posting.

It doesn't. And also ironic you should say to read before posting.

Again, a ZOS employee stated in this very thread bankers and other "essential" NPCs would be both attackable and reactive, though they would not be killable.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

The current plan is that important NPCs (quest NPCs, bankers, stablemasters, merchants) will not be killable when the Justice System goes live. However, they will be attackable, react accordingly, and you will incur bounty for doing so.

This means when people attack the banker or nearby NPCs we will get knocked out of the banking window.

Knootewoot · July 2014

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Knootewoot wrote: »

Have some faith in the dev's

Those would be the same devs that gave us:

1) a bot infested game due to a total lack of anti-bot mechanics: and there are still loads of bots around Coldharbour and other areas

I agree on this one. I am lucky i was ahead of the bots and i haven't seen one in VR area

2) umpteen abusable/exploitable design flaws which allowed those that "abuse early, abuse often" to amass fortunes those coming after can never match, reached VR12 in a matter of a couple of days

It's their party. They want to ruin their experience.. go ahead. I am VR12 by just doing quests and i did over 1000 and listened to all the story.

3) that three months after release still can't fix several progress-blocking bugs

Didn't encounter this. I did all 3 factions and only 3 bugged quests for me which got fixed

4) the VR system that only three months in had to be demolished due to lack of player support, thereby losing one of the devs' core 'visions'.

that was because players whined it was to hard and nobody was in VR area. Since they removed the difficulty i encountered lots of players in VR area's.

Yeah, I can see good reasons to "have faith in the devs".

You must have since you still are here.

Rodoscrolls · July 2014

so I walk into Wayrest,this massive ,safe city.A harbor from the wilds, where in said wilds there are plenty of things for players to kill.In this great city where I go to take a break from "adventuring" and conduct other business,other players(probably bored or something....)are running around killing npcs? yeah does this look right? does it feel right for the game? massively immersion breaking imo.there is a time and place for everything ,sorry zeni but your getting this one very wrong, poor idea...........

ShedsHisTail · July 2014

Audigy wrote: »

The whole problem is, that by making unimportant NPCs only attackable - that players will lose their interest in the justice system very fast. Yes it might be fun the first time or the second, but sooner or later people will realize that its pointless to kill no name NPCs.

The whole purpose of attacking an NPC is the kill, not the bounty. Why should someone waste his or her reputation in a town, if only he has to feel the consequences but not the other players?

I expect the justice System will be released either before or in tandem with the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood; two organizations which incentivise crime. You know, it makes you Dark Brotherhood contract to kill the assistant blacksmith in Whiterun, or steal a priceless vase from from the Alchemist in Daggerfall all the more exciting if there's a chance you'll get spotted by a guard and have a Bounty slapped on you.

Yeah, random NPC killing probably won't have much payoff, but in conjunction with these two guilds quests and contracts; there could be a lot of potential for fun there.