What WoW Devs Learned The Hard Way About NPC Killing

Dayel

In Stormwind in the old days, if you wanted to auction something, you had to be there during the 10 minutes of the day that the Horde had not killed the auctioneers. It was beyond annoying. Hopefully, ESO will avoid this trap.

jwboudreau1b16_ESO

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Knootewoot wrote: »

Have some faith in the dev's

Those would be the same devs that gave us:

1) a bot infested game due to a total lack of anti-bot mechanics: and there are still loads of bots around Coldharbour and other areas

2) umpteen abusable/exploitable design flaws which allowed those that "abuse early, abuse often" to amass fortunes those coming after can never match, reached VR12 in a matter of a couple of days

3) that three months after release still can't fix several progress-blocking bugs

4) the VR system that only three months in had to be demolished due to lack of player support, thereby losing one of the devs' core 'visions'.

Yeah, I can see good reasons to "have faith in the devs".

Then stop playing? No MMORPG launches perfectly. Things always fall through the cracks. Sooo many MMORPG's launch with bot issues. They've been great with fixing a lot of issues. I'll agree that I find it frustrating that there are still as many bugs as there are, but when I encounter one, I send a bug report about it and it's usually fixed fairly quickly.

And would you rather them leave the veteran rank system the way it is? I find it commendable that they are willing to listen to feedback and totally overhaul something that players aren't happy with. I'd say that makes them great developers, actually.

Humanistic

You can count on one thing: This system not being innovative. The absolute bare essentials will be put into place and then completely *** by players that play more than in-house testers do. That's the way of things, I hate to say this, and I don't say it in a derogatory sense: this dev team has no idea how to think ahead. This is why you have all the problems listed above on launch day.

Spottswoode

Deadmedic wrote: »

You can count on one thing: This system not being innovative. The absolute bare essentials will be put into place and then completely *** by players that play more than in-house testers do. .

It is absolutely impossible for a play test to find all of the bugs in the game and fix them before launch. Or even after launch. They keep finding bugs for years and years after launch. A statement like this generally underscores the fact that a lot of people, who couldn't write an html web document or give me the 7 layers of the osi model without reference, like to criticize the debugging efforts of the mutlimillion lines of these code monsters we call mmos. (By the way, http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Bugs They still haven't fixed the bugs for Morrowind. It's not an exaggeration to say it's nearly impossible, let alone worth the effort.) Most of you couldn't even give a budget outline for a project 1/100 the size of this one or make relevant goal setting for it. All of us couldn't even begin to manage these projects. (This entire rant is not dedicated against you specifically, @Deadmedic )
Edit: Also, yes we find bugs more often than they do. Mostly because there are 700,000 or so of us and probably less than 200 staff dedicated to fixing bus. (Probably less than 50 in reality.)

As to the innovation comment, nihil sub sole novum. Find me an original work and I'll find you 10 sources it came from.

meaghs

Denaia wrote: »

It becomes a problem when the new level 1 players are being harassed by vr 12 players who go on and kill every single npc in the starting zones. As that is what is going to happen and how will those players be able to get new players if they don't know anyone to ask?

Some npc's should be protected from being killed or it will lead to massive abuse.

are you going to allow this? Are players going to allow this? Justice is in our hands.. If I am at a bank or in a starter zone (sometimes I go for crafting etc) I will certainly be one of the 'good guys' bringing justice to the griefer.

Knootewoot

Although i won't be killing my own factions NPC's, i will surely arrow barrage entire towns in all VR area's. I hope NB's get the skill "finger o death" so i can just point at people who will explode in a ludicrous gib shower.

Thief and Darkbrotherhood guilds are criminals. there should be harsh penalties for killing and stealing. Just PvE doesn't work for this. I am both a PvE'er and PvP'er. I will welcome this content with open arms.

You don't want a mean player collecting your bounty? Don't kill NPC's and don't steal then and be a good boy.

In Morrowind (also a TES game) i created spells and murdered out entire towns with dark elves because they stink. I had the death sentence in 12 systems.

Also i want thieveguild member if they are caught that guards chop of one of their hands so they can't dual wield until they find a new hand as loot.

Rylana

babylon wrote: »

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

I don't think this will turn out pretty either, but at least players can hunt down the *** that killed the poor banker.

Yep because the VR12/champ guy is going to be really really concerned about those 5 brave and fearless level 10 guys hunting him down.

Maybe not, but he better be afraid of my VR12 DK or NB hunting him. I fully intend to be a justice dealer. Bounty hunting is awesome PvP

Knootewoot

Rylana wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

I don't think this will turn out pretty either, but at least players can hunt down the *** that killed the poor banker.

Yep because the VR12/champ guy is going to be really really concerned about those 5 brave and fearless level 10 guys hunting him down.

Maybe not, but he better be afraid of my VR12 DK or NB hunting him. I fully intend to be a justice dealer. Bounty hunting is awesome PvP

Had my share of fun in SWG's bounty system. In the early days i tracked (as a ranger) jedi's for the bounty hunters.

During the NGE when you killed someone in PvP they could put a bounty on your head. Only BH's could take that bounty of course but it was fun. There you are just decorating your house and BAM tracked and killed. Luckily i locked the door in some occasions.

But it was fun.

Varicite

Audigy wrote: »

Denaia wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

Innocente wrote: »

WoW developers learned that despite whatever safeguards are put in place, high level players will travel to low level areas and simply wipe out every guard, NPC, and Quest Giver they can find. And they will keep them dead for hours on end.

Bottom line is that the griefers will simply ruin the PvE game for pretty much all the non-sociopathic player base.

Now, ZOS will eventually hear the laments of the player base, and be forced to get rid of the ability to kill NPCs. But a lot of damage will be done to ESO during the time that this behavior is allowed in the game.

ZOS would be wise to LEARN from the mistakes of others and not repeat them.

Yes Blizzard learned the hard way, they lost 7 million of their subs in the process

I don't want to offend you but your carebear mode just doesn't fit to MMOs. If players can not kill important NPC´s then the whole reason for the justice system is revoked.

We need a living world, we need interaction with players and one way to do this is world pvp. If a guild sieges a city, then everyone on the server has to work together to fight them off. If a sneaky Rogue camps a merchant, then players have to work together to find him. This is MMO stuff, this is what made UO, Vanilla WOW or DAOC so good.

I see the justice system failing before its even in the game, because of demands that have only one goal " the destruction" of ESO.

I feel very sorry for the DEVs, they have so many good thoughts but people at this forum just keep trashing them because they wont accept that this is an MMO and not Tetris.

It becomes a problem when the new level 1 players are being harassed by vr 12 players who go on and kill every single npc in the starting zones. As that is what is going to happen and how will those players be able to get new players if they don't know anyone to ask?

Some npc's should be protected from being killed or it will lead to massive abuse.

A one sided system will not work, as we can see at WOW now. World pvp is dead, 7 million subs lost - it says enough about the changes to the system there.

Why do you keep saying this? You have no idea why 7 million subs were lost in the course of all those years.

Nothing you've said here has anything to do w/ why I stopped playing WoW personally. Quit acting like you have any clue what you're talking about when it comes to a game's loss of subs.

All you've done here is take a completely unrelated fact and try to erroneously bend it to fit your silly little agenda. You aren't fooling anyone. Just stop.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

jwboudreau1b16_ESO wrote: »

And would you rather them leave the veteran rank system the way it is?

Not the point. The point is they had a self-proclaimed 'vision' for VR that proved utterly disconnected with what the majority of players want.

There were clearly out of touch with the players on that, yet we're being asked to 'trust' the devs on Justice.

Really?

I'll wait and see.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

jwboudreau1b16_ESO wrote: »

Then stop playing? No MMORPG launches perfectly. Things always fall through the cracks.

I know, I've played several MMOs in beta/early start: LOTRO, Rift, FFXIV V1, FFXIV V2, ESO, SW:TOR.

Excluding the utter train wreck that was FFXIV V1 .. which actually wasn't a total disaster but that's not the point here .. the others all had a number of bugs.

Thing is, three months down the road none of those still had progress-breaking quest bugs, game systems nerfed to Oblivion as an anti-bot mechanic (boss drops nerfed to the ground, artificial timed lockouts to prevent boss farming etc.), nor did any of them at this stage need serious revamps of core 'vision' content like VR, nor were their developers talking about large-scale zone/dungeon revamps only three months into the game.

Yes, no MMORPG launched perfectly, but most of those I've played or observed did a damned sight better job than ZOS.

Blubster3000nrb18_ESO

a reputation system would be nice to show the characters actions towards the world.
for killing npcs maybe making quest givers imune to attack and if possible make other npcs run to the client not server if possible. if not possible maybe make the npcs respawn in 15-30 seconds and they respawn inside a building and then they leave the building rather then just poping in.

Korah_Eaglecry

Innocente wrote: »

WoW developers learned that despite whatever safeguards are put in place, high level players will travel to low level areas and simply wipe out every guard, NPC, and Quest Giver they can find. And they will keep them dead for hours on end.

Bottom line is that the griefers will simply ruin the PvE game for pretty much all the non-sociopathic player base.

Now, ZOS will eventually hear the laments of the player base, and be forced to get rid of the ability to kill NPCs. But a lot of damage will be done to ESO during the time that this behavior is allowed in the game.

ZOS would be wise to LEARN from the mistakes of others and not repeat them.

I asked a question about killing guards during the last AuA...They told me flat out that Guards can not be killed. This means regardless of how high level you are. The Guards are going to beat you into the ground. And theyll call on more and more of their Guard Buddies to help as you try to run.

Also..Its quite immature of you to call players 'sociopaths' because they decide they want to kill a bunch of 0s and 1s.

And a final note. Im almost certain theyve made it so you cant kill NPCs that are quest givers or are important to the storyline somehow. If not that change will happen sooner then not. This is why we have a PTS. Now stop trying to rain on everyone elses parade because you dont want to take part in the Justice System.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Also..Its quite immature of you to call players 'sociopaths' because they decide they want to kill a bunch of 0s and 1s.

Actually I agree with that epithet, and it's not because they want to kill some "0s and 1s", it's because they know they're going to ***-off PLAYERS that's where the sociopathic tendencies come from, their deliberate griefing of others.

In WOW this was regularly 'Crossroads raids' where Alliance players would slaughter all the Horse NPCs so preventing all the Horde lowbies from being able to quest. The Alliance players got nothing for it, they did simply and only to grief other players.

Sociopath is a perfect term for that sort and anti-social behaviour, in the real-world of an MMO.

Sirlacker

This is what pts us for... public TEST server. We don't even know if they thought about this yet and if they didn't, we're here to test it and see what works and what doesnt.

Korah_Eaglecry

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Also..Its quite immature of you to call players 'sociopaths' because they decide they want to kill a bunch of 0s and 1s.

Actually I agree with that epithet, and it's not because they want to kill some "0s and 1s", it's because they know they're going to ***-off PLAYERS that's where the sociopathic tendencies come from, their deliberate griefing of others.

In WOW this was regularly 'Crossroads raids' where Alliance players would slaughter all the Horse NPCs so preventing all the Horde lowbies from being able to quest. The Alliance players got nothing for it, they did simply and only to grief other players.

Sociopath is a perfect term for that sort and anti-social behaviour, in the real-world of an MMO.

Youre talking about trolls, The OP is making it out to be as if anyone taking part in this will be simply out to grief people.

And no. You dont need to be a sociopath to troll people. People troll each other day in and day out.

Varicite

Why are we necroing a thread from July and acting like the information in it is even remotely relevant?

Kalman

Ysne58

Well, I think it's just fascinating that the issues raised are more relevant today than they were 8 to 9 months ago.

Abr4hn

Innocente wrote: »

WoW developers learned that despite whatever safeguards are put in place, high level players will travel to low level areas and simply wipe out every guard, NPC, and Quest Giver they can find. And they will keep them dead for hours on end.

Bottom line is that the griefers will simply ruin the PvE game for pretty much all the non-sociopathic player base.

Now, ZOS will eventually hear the laments of the player base, and be forced to get rid of the ability to kill NPCs. But a lot of damage will be done to ESO during the time that this behavior is allowed in the game.

ZOS would be wise to LEARN from the mistakes of others and not repeat them.

Yup, I remember those days. Don't forget they killed the flight masters too, so you were kind of stuck there for a while, unable to turn in quests, get new ones, empty your bags by selling loot, etc. Not fun.

However, Blizzard came up with an easy fix.

They simply boosted all the NPC's players needed to interact with to be as strong as raid bosses. Problem solved.

I don't know if that will work in the ESO justice system, but it might be that simple as well. Besides, some previous posters had the right idea - we will have to wait and see what is delivered rather than freaking out over problems that may not even happen in the first place.

Slurg

Varicite wrote: »

Why are we necroing a thread from July and acting like the information in it is even remotely relevant?

It's new to the new guy who necroed it (welcome new guy). And it's so old it's practically new again to everyone else.

At least people are using the search function.

Varicite

Slurg wrote: »

At least people are using the search function.

Touche'

Faugaun

Could just make them respawn very quickly (30 seconds or something) and provide no exp (someone would abuse an NPC that instantly respawned . )

jesusch

Audigy wrote: »

Innocente wrote: »

WoW developers learned that despite whatever safeguards are put in place, high level players will travel to low level areas and simply wipe out every guard, NPC, and Quest Giver they can find. And they will keep them dead for hours on end.

Bottom line is that the griefers will simply ruin the PvE game for pretty much all the non-sociopathic player base.

Now, ZOS will eventually hear the laments of the player base, and be forced to get rid of the ability to kill NPCs. But a lot of damage will be done to ESO during the time that this behavior is allowed in the game.

ZOS would be wise to LEARN from the mistakes of others and not repeat them.

Yes Blizzard learned the hard way, they lost 7 million of their subs in the process

I don't want to offend you but your carebear mode just doesn't fit to MMOs. If players can not kill important NPC´s then the whole reason for the justice system is revoked.

We need a living world, we need interaction with players and one way to do this is world pvp. If a guild sieges a city, then everyone on the server has to work together to fight them off. If a sneaky Rogue camps a merchant, then players have to work together to find him. This is MMO stuff, this is what made UO, Vanilla WOW or DAOC so good.

I see the justice system failing before its even in the game, because of demands that have only one goal " the destruction" of ESO.

I feel very sorry for the DEVs, they have so many good thoughts but people at this forum just keep trashing them because they wont accept that this is an MMO and not Tetris.

Totally agree. We want a mature MMO, not a easy-play-and-all-the-ways-are-protected-against-the-chaos.

In adittion, I think the bounty for attack a city (or for every NPC attacked/killed) would be f***ing elevated. The people think twice before do crazy things.

Austin.Swiftb14_ESO

I remember reading that the NPC will only be killed for you. So if you kill someone that another player is talking to, that NPC will only die for you. Thus making sure no player can ruin the experience for another.

Zershar_Vemod

Stop right there criminal scum.....!

cravnbeer

Ya I thought this whole system was a waste of developer time.

Iluvrien

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

And no. You dont need to be a sociopath to troll people. People troll each other day in and day out.

Probably not*... but you know what? It really helps.


(* = although the behaviour does seem to fit most of the definitions I have ever seen.)

rawne1980b16_ESO

Audigy wrote: »

I see the justice system failing before its even in the game, because of demands that have only one goal " the destruction" of ESO.

The destruction of ESO would happen if important NPC's were constantly dead.

People aren't just going to wait around for respawns, they will find something else to play.

There is a reason UO, DAoC and other more PvP focused games aren't hosting millions of players ... as much as we loved them then the times have changed.

A system only works in a game if the vast majority find it fun. If they stop having fun they stop playing and take to the internet. Less people playing is less money coming in, more complaining on the forums is bad press it can do without.

I know you don't care about that. Sadly people with your mind set of "we must be able to kill everything" usually don't give a damn about other players.

WhiteTigre

"If a guild sieges a city, then everyone on the server has to work together to fight them off. If a sneaky Rogue camps a merchant, then players have to work together to find him. This is MMO stuff, this is what made UO, Vanilla WOW or DAOC so good"

I disagree with this because you will find players will want to move on with quest or turn in quest just be froe they logoff. They do not want to spend a another hour or 2 trying to find or fend of city from another guild.

but having said this they can do something like in star wars where if guild wants to lay sieges to cities or attack for example it should not affect gameplay for others. So let NPC guards fend of the city with everything they have.