DK Scales! - Reversing My Position

Vis · July 2014

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

piotreb17_ESO4 wrote: »

Sorry, but if there is currently one class that rules others, it is Sorcerers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGIxhsVWIE8

That 'overpowered' sorc uses two spells to attack, Crushing Shock and Crystal Fragments. Those are the two spammable nukes we can access.

Both are 100% countered by Reflecting Scales.

So, you make a good point. Perhaps not the point you meant, though.

You should actually watch the video. You would notice he killed multiple dragon knights who were using scales.

This guy knows how to play, take notes.

What the hell are you talking about? Show us anywhere where a single DK spammed Scales the entire fight.

One DK kept scales up for 8 seconds before she (for some inexplicable reason) stopped using it. In those 8 seconds she got the sorc to below 30% hp easy. The sorc would have easily died had she been smart enough to use scales at least one more time. Another (completely incompetent DK) almost won with nothing but scales before he forgot to reapply it.

All this video proves is the second a DK uses scales the sorc was left with no options but to try and face tank the DK with no response attacks.

Again, no where in that video is a single example of a DK keeping scales up throughout the entire fight.

This video further proves how much of a baddie you can be and still faceroll with scales.

Bashev · July 2014

NerfEverything wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

So much noise for a broken skill. I don't want to think when ZoS fix the skill and more DKs start using it what will you start to do.
In 1vs1 is a good skill against players with nukes. But in 1 vs 2-3 is almost useless. 90 percent of the time I met more than 1 player in Cyrodiil. The players in the video are terrible, they will die instantly in the veteran zones.

I don't think you understand what this skill does. It becomes more effective vs more enemies. You have it completely backwards. And 90% of damage in Cyro is ranged. The ability is sickeningly OP in PvP.

I know exactly how the skill worked and works now but I am sure you have no idea. I will give you some examples, I hope you can understand although your nickname describes you perfectly. If I use reflective scales it cost 392 magicka (with reduction 300), I can say it is cheap. If you use snipe on me(it costs 400 stamina for you) and I reflect it, 400 stamina is drained from my stamina pool. If you use crystal shards and it costs 400 magicka for you, when I reflect it 400 magicka is drained from my magicka pool. In 1 vs1 is ok, but if I reflect 4 magicka or 4 stamina skills (vs 2-3 ppl) my resources are over and I am dead. On the other hand if I block I will loose for 8 spells (8*90) 720 stamina and I will take 800 (8*100) damage which can be out-healed with the magicka that I have.

Vis · July 2014

Bashev wrote: »

NerfEverything wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

So much noise for a broken skill. I don't want to think when ZoS fix the skill and more DKs start using it what will you start to do.
In 1vs1 is a good skill against players with nukes. But in 1 vs 2-3 is almost useless. 90 percent of the time I met more than 1 player in Cyrodiil. The players in the video are terrible, they will die instantly in the veteran zones.

I don't think you understand what this skill does. It becomes more effective vs more enemies. You have it completely backwards. And 90% of damage in Cyro is ranged. The ability is sickeningly OP in PvP.

I know exactly how the skill worked and works now but I am sure you have no idea. I will give you some examples, I hope you can understand although your nickname describes you perfectly. If I use reflective scales it cost 392 magicka (with reduction 300), I can say it is cheap. If you use snipe on me(it costs 400 stamina for you) and I reflect it, 400 stamina is drained from my stamina pool. If you use crystal shards and it costs 400 magicka for you, when I reflect it 400 magicka is drained from my magicka pool. In 1 vs1 is ok, but if I reflect 4 magicka or 4 stamina skills (vs 2-3 ppl) my resources are over and I am dead. On the other hand if I block I will loose for 8 spells (8*90) 720 stamina and I will take 800 (8*100) damage which can be out-healed with the magicka that I have.

1.) If you have the syrbane set that fixes most of that problem (especially with the magicka gain put into gdb to compensate for stamina loss)

2.) You are being charge but look at what your are getting: 100% negate dmg + 100% (or more) outgoing damage (I would take that ANY day)

3.) We should not be balancing skills around bugs. An OP skill should not stand because of a bug that is already in the works of being fixed

Erock25 · July 2014

Vis wrote: »

3.) We should not be balancing skills around bugs. An OP skill should not stand because of a bug that is already in the works of being fixed

Did ZOS say anywhere that Reflective Scales charging the DK with the resources of the cast is a bug and being fixed?

Vis · July 2014

Erock25 wrote: »

Vis wrote: »

3.) We should not be balancing skills around bugs. An OP skill should not stand because of a bug that is already in the works of being fixed

Did ZOS say anywhere that Reflective Scales charging the DK with the resources of the cast is a bug and being fixed?

They said a fix coming for Eclipse, which along with defensive stance suffers from the same bug as scales.

Erock25 · July 2014

Vis wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Vis wrote: »

3.) We should not be balancing skills around bugs. An OP skill should not stand because of a bug that is already in the works of being fixed

Did ZOS say anywhere that Reflective Scales charging the DK with the resources of the cast is a bug and being fixed?

They said a fix coming for Eclipse, which along with defensive stance suffers from the same bug as scales.

That is interesting. Imagine Reflective Scales without the additional resource drain.

dodgehopper_ESO · July 2014

You guys realize One hand and shield has a similar ability right?

Erock25 · July 2014

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

You guys realize One hand and shield has a similar ability right?

There is a huge difference between a reflect that only works on one projectile before it disappears (one hand and shield defensive posture) and a reflect that works on all projectiles over 4 seconds.

Orchish · July 2014

Only dress wearers with a ton of Magicka are able to spam this ability. For a heavy armour user such as my self it cannot be spammed. Also, i am unsure if this is intended or a bug, but currently each cast cost me the amount of Magickia/Stamina as it cost the enemy to cast what ever he fired at me. This results in me being depleted of Stamina/Magicka very quickly.

In it's current state it simply is not OP. It's light armour and Magicka regen that needs looking at. The video posted showing the guy spamming this ability over and over has insane magicka regen, he could quite easily spam dragon blood or whip. Then you'd be calling for those to be nerfed as well.

NobleX35 · July 2014

Vis wrote: »

GothicPython wrote: »

Vis wrote: »

Archaon wrote: »

Over 400 magicka base cost and it costs additional resources when reflecting a skill. Add it has one of the most easy to see animations and there you got buttom smashers whinning for more nerfs.

Under 400 magicka base cost (fixed it for you). What are you afraid of? That your DK would no longer be able to mindlessly spam an Iwin button?

The only game play promoting button smashing is hitting scales and then typing lol lol lol.

No...he was right, the base cost for scales at level 50+ is 420 magicka. And it also consumes additional magicka for every RANGED PROJECTILE it deflects.

Last time I checked 420 > 400

http://www.esohead.com/skills/21017-dragon-fire-scale

Scale it to max level. Even if the tooltip were off by 20, any reduction (which the vast majority of DKs have) put it well into the spammable range.

That's kind of my point...the base cost of the skill is fine and is not spammable in any means. The real issue is the Light Armor passive that reduces magicka cost of abilities. It's simply too powerful, and rather than keep nerfing various classes and class abilites...the real issue (which is light armor) should be looked at.

InvictoNZ · July 2014

So many bad players, everywhere.

Which DK ability gives stamina or magicka regen? is it flappy wings? Reflect drains stamina and magicka to 0.

While a DK is flapping his wings, use a resto heavy attack. Throw caltrops. Throw volcanic rune. Do something that involves your brain.

dodgehopper_ESO · July 2014

GothicPython wrote: »

Vis wrote: »

GothicPython wrote: »

Vis wrote: »

Archaon wrote: »

Over 400 magicka base cost and it costs additional resources when reflecting a skill. Add it has one of the most easy to see animations and there you got buttom smashers whinning for more nerfs.

Under 400 magicka base cost (fixed it for you). What are you afraid of? That your DK would no longer be able to mindlessly spam an Iwin button?

The only game play promoting button smashing is hitting scales and then typing lol lol lol.

No...he was right, the base cost for scales at level 50+ is 420 magicka. And it also consumes additional magicka for every RANGED PROJECTILE it deflects.

Last time I checked 420 > 400

http://www.esohead.com/skills/21017-dragon-fire-scale

Scale it to max level. Even if the tooltip were off by 20, any reduction (which the vast majority of DKs have) put it well into the spammable range.

That's kind of my point...the base cost of the skill is fine and is not spammable in any means. The real issue is the Light Armor passive that reduces magicka cost of abilities. It's simply too powerful, and rather than keep nerfing various classes and class abilites...the real issue (which is light armor) should be looked at.

That or Heavy and Medium Armor could use a little love. Give Heavy a higher Weapon damage bonus, as well as pure damage resistance. Give Medium Armor better Weapon damage either through higher crits or additional weapon bonus. As an aside, I'd be happy with Templar power management underperformance if they gave us a stronger spell resistance, damage resistance and weapon damage boost (or some kind of combination of some of those elements). Templars would be more weapon spammers that way, which might be a good thing. It certainly seems like what they were intending for the class as I look at their abilities.

I personally don't think Dragon Knight Reflect needs nerf, it is more of a gear issue. This is one reason why Set gear always makes me uneasy in mmos. To be honest, I'm not a big fan of gear in MMO's. The purest, best pvp is usually found when the fights are about pure skill, and not about who has the latest FOTM bit of gear that hasn't been nerfed or discovered by the devs yet. If we had no set gear, it would also be a lot easier to balance the classes with one another. Ultimately, to do away with this issue, I'm really hoping that Spellweaving will allow us to just pick up copies of other classes skills, so we can just do away with class whining, and get to the much more TES style and feel of gaming where there are no true classes. That's what I'd like to see.

JLB · July 2014

GothicPython wrote: »

Vis wrote: »

The real issue is the Light Armor passive that reduces magicka cost of abilities. It's simply too powerful, and rather than keep nerfing various classes and class abilites...the real issue (which is light armor) should be looked at.

Oh, right. So Light Armour is the problem, not DK abilities.
Weird, I've been using 7/7 Light Armour in my Templar and still can't do what a DK can, in terms of survivability, DPS and resource sustainability. Must be a L2p issue.

Snit · July 2014

GothicPython wrote: »

The real issue is the Light Armor passive that reduces magicka cost of abilities.

You're talking about nerfing every single class ability in the game, as all benefit from spell cost reduction. I don't think RS is best fixed by rebalcing approximately 90 other skills along with it.

Everybody agrees medium needs more loving, and heavy remains an unfortunate virgin.

NobleX35 · July 2014

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

GothicPython wrote: »

Vis wrote: »

GothicPython wrote: »

Vis wrote: »

Archaon wrote: »

Over 400 magicka base cost and it costs additional resources when reflecting a skill. Add it has one of the most easy to see animations and there you got buttom smashers whinning for more nerfs.

Under 400 magicka base cost (fixed it for you). What are you afraid of? That your DK would no longer be able to mindlessly spam an Iwin button?

The only game play promoting button smashing is hitting scales and then typing lol lol lol.

No...he was right, the base cost for scales at level 50+ is 420 magicka. And it also consumes additional magicka for every RANGED PROJECTILE it deflects.

Last time I checked 420 > 400

http://www.esohead.com/skills/21017-dragon-fire-scale

Scale it to max level. Even if the tooltip were off by 20, any reduction (which the vast majority of DKs have) put it well into the spammable range.

That's kind of my point...the base cost of the skill is fine and is not spammable in any means. The real issue is the Light Armor passive that reduces magicka cost of abilities. It's simply too powerful, and rather than keep nerfing various classes and class abilites...the real issue (which is light armor) should be looked at.

That or Heavy and Medium Armor could use a little love.

I agree and I made a thread about this very topic here: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/111591/armor-passives-and-imbalance#latest

JLB wrote: »

GothicPython wrote: »

Vis wrote: »

The real issue is the Light Armor passive that reduces magicka cost of abilities. It's simply too powerful, and rather than keep nerfing various classes and class abilites...the real issue (which is light armor) should be looked at.

Oh, right. So Light Armour is the problem, not DK abilities.
Weird, I've been using 7/7 Light Armour in my Templar and still can't do what a DK can, in terms of survivability, DPS and resource sustainability. Must be a L2p issue.

Honestly yes to both, I'm a DK and I choose not to around weild a stick and wearing a dress. Instead I run 5 heavy and 2 medium and it is much more balanced. Due to the fact that I'm not running 7/7 light armor my magicka costs aren't 21% lower, my magicka regen 28% lower, my spell resistance is 56% lower, my spell crit is 10% lower, and my spell penetration is 42% lower. A DK not running 7/7 light is much more fair and much more balanced.

The problem is that we are the tankiest class (which we're supposed to be given the current information presented), but our skills correlate far to well with light armor. Fix the armor passives and this game will be in a much more balanced state, and if imbalances still exist then make class changes.

Snit wrote: »

GothicPython wrote: »

The real issue is the Light Armor passive that reduces magicka cost of abilities.

You're talking about nerfing every single class ability in the game, as all benefit from spell cost reduction. I don't think RS is best fixed by rebalcing approximately 90 other skills along with it.

Everybody agrees medium needs more loving, and heavy remains an unfortunate virgin.

Only if you wear light armor...if you don't then changing the passive won't effect you, except to bring the people who do more down to your level.

I'll say it again, one of the main reasons this game is so unbalanced right now is due to the fact that armor passives are extremely unbalanced. Fix the armor lines, then fix the individual skills.

e.jeffriesb14_ESO · July 2014

Reflective Scale is powerful. Potentially too powerful. But I think people are looking at this the wrong way. Every class -should- have powerful, useful abilities.

The problem is when a single general build style is both significantly harder to kill than most, and gets significantly more kills than most. I have a hard time attributing this difference in KDR to player skill - remember, that argument can be applied to every build. So why are other builds not this potent?

My DK has a WAY higher KDR than my other characters. It's not because I'm significantly more skillful on one toon than my others.

Something needs to change. Maybe Reflective Scale, maybe something else.

Vis · July 2014

Orchish wrote: »

Only dress wearers with a ton of Magicka are able to spam this ability. For a heavy armour user such as my self it cannot be spammed. Also, i am unsure if this is intended or a bug, but currently each cast cost me the amount of Magickia/Stamina as it cost the enemy to cast what ever he fired at me. This results in me being depleted of Stamina/Magicka very quickly.

In it's current state it simply is not OP. It's light armour and Magicka regen that needs looking at. The video posted showing the guy spamming this ability over and over has insane magicka regen, he could quite easily spam dragon blood or whip. Then you'd be calling for those to be nerfed as well.

The issue is that in a fight with a dk he uses all the skills you mentioned. If all I had to do is wait out a dk, it would be easy. The issue is that he uses scales and then goes to town with his own dps.

Cogo · July 2014

You know what....there is need for balance, which Zeni themselves say is a never ending job.

But Prove me wrong and say any "class" is vastly op now?

I am sorry, but sometimes when you get owned, its player skill, not class skill.

ItsRejectz · July 2014

Snit wrote: »

I would like to know if any sorcerers are able to kill well played DK's more than, say, 10% of the time in a one-on-one. To be clear, I mean at geared-up V12, and nobody started out on their horse And let's also assume nobody's a moron (e.g., the sorc isn't spamming a hardcast CF). Here are the issues, from the sorc's point of view:

- DK's heal, so you need to burst them down
- DK's reflect both of the nukes we might load, Crystal Fragments or Crushing Shock. They also reflect Destro Staff attacks (the heavy attack can do significant damage)
- Velocious Curse, Resto staff attacks and Endless Fury can not be reflected, but those two together won't burst enough to kill anyone at their keyboard

I'm all for Rock-Paper-Scissors (or Shotgun, or even Lizard-Spock). I can wreck badly played DK's. But a good one is darn near impossible, and I'm definining good solely as "Has Reflecting Scale on their bar and uses it frequently." DK's have a pretty amazing combination of defense and offense.

The best answer I have found is to just run.

Have to agree, 1v1 it's extremely hard to kill a DK. Once stamina builds become better, i think things will change as scales dosnt reflect mele attacks

OtarTheMad · July 2014

They don't need to nerf Reflective Scales. DK's only spam it because some of the other skills they have got nerfed and also 2 handed and heavy armor are not viable right now. I think when they balance out melee weapons and heavy armor then you'll see more DK's using other abilities. I mean it would be nice if they made each 2 handed weapon do separate damage... like in Skyrim or something. Same with 1 handed and daggers but hey... I won't get on a rant about that lol. I'm just saying nerfing Scales will not fix the problem because it is not the real issue... some of the other skill lines are like stamina builds, 2 handed, 1 handed, heavy armor... etc.

NerfEverything · July 2014

People bring up a good point about melee(stamina) abilities lacking DPS. 90% of damage in Cyrodil is ranged projectile as far as Reflective Scales is concerned. Being able to reflect 90% of all incoming damage is OP, you cannot argue with that.

But if stamina had better DPS, more people would be using melee attacks, that's less damage for Scales to reflect, and therefore less OP and less people complaining.

CoUsT · July 2014

ItsRejectz wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

I would like to know if any sorcerers are able to kill well played DK's more than, say, 10% of the time in a one-on-one. To be clear, I mean at geared-up V12, and nobody started out on their horse And let's also assume nobody's a moron (e.g., the sorc isn't spamming a hardcast CF). Here are the issues, from the sorc's point of view:

- DK's heal, so you need to burst them down
- DK's reflect both of the nukes we might load, Crystal Fragments or Crushing Shock. They also reflect Destro Staff attacks (the heavy attack can do significant damage)
- Velocious Curse, Resto staff attacks and Endless Fury can not be reflected, but those two together won't burst enough to kill anyone at their keyboard

I'm all for Rock-Paper-Scissors (or Shotgun, or even Lizard-Spock). I can wreck badly played DK's. But a good one is darn near impossible, and I'm definining good solely as "Has Reflecting Scale on their bar and uses it frequently." DK's have a pretty amazing combination of defense and offense.

The best answer I have found is to just run.

Have to agree, 1v1 it's extremely hard to kill a DK. Once stamina builds become better, i think things will change as scales dosnt reflect mele attacks

DK Reflective Scale doesn't reflect melee attacks. Templar reflect does - it reflect all single target attacks/spells.

Misread, LOL. Yeah, I agree, it will change when there won't be "Play in light armor with staff or you will suck"

NerfEverything wrote: »

People bring up a good point about melee(stamina) abilities lacking DPS. 90% of damage in Cyrodil is ranged projectile as far as Reflective Scales is concerned. Being able to reflect 90% of all incoming damage is OP, you cannot argue with that.

But if stamina had better DPS, more people would be using melee attacks, that's less damage for Scales to reflect, and therefore less OP and less people complaining.

Better nerf everything.

Reremnu · July 2014

CoUsT wrote: »

DK Reflective Scale doesn't reflect melee attacks. Templar reflect does - it reflect all single target attacks/spells.

Well... for Templar it is a damage shield, it stops magicka regen for the duration of it being active. It is a damage shield, and it "reflects" only around 53% damage taken. Damage shield is for 30% of max health, so with 3k HP 900 damage shield = ~477 reflected damage only once. This damage shield can be easily destroyed with... 1 crit from crystal fragment from a safe distance.

DK Scale reflect every range projectile for 4s. Increasing damage of reflected damage by 35%. You can reflect multiple projectiles. No limit.

CoUsT · July 2014

You are not talking about the right spell. Templar reflect is named eclipse I think.

Reremnu · July 2014

Blazing shield is the only skill that could be considered "reflecting all". Thus my mistake.

Eclipse can reflect only spell projectiles, while DK's scale reflects all projectiles, even stamina based (hidden blade, bow skills).

CoUsT · July 2014

Reremnu wrote: »

Eclipse can reflect only spell projectiles, while DK's scale reflects all projectiles, even stamina based (hidden blade, bow skills).

But it's still reflect. Also, putting eclipse on DK who is using reflective scale will cause DK to keep losing resources (magicka or stamina) for each reflected spells but DK will get damage from all spells. This happens because all spells can be reflected once, so someoen cast spell -> DK reflect spell -> Eclipse reflect spell -> DK get damage because he can't reflect it again.

So it's not that bad, you can at least kill rambo-DK easy with this skill. :P