DK Scales! - Reversing My Position

Phinix1 · July 2014

CoUsT wrote: »

Brandeospeedwagon wrote: »

If you be a templar, when he casts scales, cast eclipse - your spells will bounce off him, off you, back to him.

I just said that 3 posts above. But it's true. Everything in this game has counter. People should think a bit about skills and realize what is good and what isn't.

You're right!

"OK, guys, hang on one sec while I go level a Templar from 1-v12 to cancel the latest class FOTM!" XD

Explain how a Sorcerer can counter it? Or a NB?

But I am sure any class that can't is just exploiting dresses and deserves it! XD

Read: Why I don't PVP. Its all zerg and FOTM.

yodased · July 2014

You added from 0 after the fact there buddy. You say there is no way to recharge magic from a DK skill. Two skills are posted that recharge magic. You then alter to say from

who is trolling?

Maulkin · July 2014

Tamanous wrote: »

Lol. Look at all the DKs trying hopelessly to defend this skill.

When this power finally gets nerfed these same players will create even longer posts complaining about it along with the next wave of "I quit" posts. One single ability is allowing DKs to kill multiple players at once with no viable counter from most other classes ... and this is evidently ok with them because if it changes they will "quit".

These people are their own worst enemy. If you cannot step back and look at a game constructively, pushing aside your own self interests, you have no business posting on this forum.

You need to have hard look at yourself before you fling the accusation at others.

I can similarly respond to your post by:
"Lol, look at all these noobs who cannot l2p!".

You're adding nothing constructive to the conversation

zmanu · July 2014

Draw essence was already nerfed and only affect a maximum of 3 targets, rendering it practically useless, even less as a form of recovering magicka.

I have no trouble taking down dks on my weaker than weak templar, mostly because I actually use my brain and adjust to which skills are being thrown at me, instead of just spamming the same abilities like a mindless monkey.

Yes, a good dk can kill 10 people, but that's 10 people who have no clue what they are doing. And yes, the other classes do not have such a synergy to be able to do the same in the exact manner, but a skillful Sorcerer vampire can come pretty darn close.

yodased · July 2014

The point is the skill exists is all.

Maulkin · July 2014

yodased wrote: »

You added from 0 after the fact there buddy. You say there is no way to recharge magic from a DK skill. Two skills are posted that recharge magic. You then alter to say from

who is trolling?

Did I?

"Try to spam a few times the shield: see your magicka bar totally dry with 0 class resource management (as opposed to DKs, for example) to easily fill it up."

I dunno, "totally dry" means 0 to me. What does it mean to you?

You also said "fill it up". None of the abilities listed other than Battle Roar, "fill up" your magicka because they cost more than they return. Can I fill up my magicka by Draw Essence?

I think you are

Snit · July 2014

piotreb17_ESO4 wrote: »

Sorry, but if there is currently one class that rules others, it is Sorcerers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGIxhsVWIE8

That 'overpowered' sorc uses two spells to attack, Crushing Shock and Crystal Fragments. Those are the two spammable nukes we can access.

Both are 100% countered by Reflecting Scales.

So, you make a good point. Perhaps not the point you meant, though.

Snit · July 2014

Eclipse can be countered. It's a CC -- an exotic one, but still a form of CC.

The best counter to Reflecting Scales is to flee.

Actually, that's not entirely true. I managed to kill a fairly famous DK on Wabbajack last night, as he spammed Reflective Scale. And by "I," I mean me and about four other guys. That's after he killed two or three, attacking all of us by himself. He died to Velocious Curses and Restoration Staff Heavy Attacks. Those don't get reflected. If you have a bunch of people casting them at one guy, it's enough 'burst' to kill him, even through Green Dragon Blood.

Flawless Victory!

NobleX35 · July 2014

Vis wrote: »

Archaon wrote: »

Over 400 magicka base cost and it costs additional resources when reflecting a skill. Add it has one of the most easy to see animations and there you got buttom smashers whinning for more nerfs.

Under 400 magicka base cost (fixed it for you). What are you afraid of? That your DK would no longer be able to mindlessly spam an Iwin button?

The only game play promoting button smashing is hitting scales and then typing lol lol lol.

No...he was right, the base cost for scales at level 50+ is 420 magicka. And it also consumes additional magicka for every RANGED PROJECTILE it deflects.

Last time I checked 420 > 400

Sadae · July 2014

I play a stamina-based DK and I sure can't keep Scales up. It is NOT cheap!

If there are builds that can keep Scales up then the problem is with whatever is letting them keep their magicka pool up, not with the skill itself.

Maulkin · July 2014

Sadae wrote: »

I play a stamina-based DK and I sure can't keep Scales up. It is NOT cheap!

If there are builds that can keep Scales up then the problem is with whatever is letting them keep their magicka pool up, not with the skill itself.

As it's been said part of the problem is the Syrabane set which gives you back magicka for every reflect. This is a similar situation to the Magicka Furnace set which has been nerfed since.

Tbh, I don't see the reason why a whole set should exist that boosts pretty much only one skill. Especially one skill that is as good as Reflective Scale.

Snit · July 2014

Sadae wrote: »

I play a stamina-based DK and I sure can't keep Scales up. It is NOT cheap!

RS is only goofy when it can be sustained. I don't think anyone should complain about having to notice wings and count to four -- that's a player skill issue for the sorc/ nightblade.

But LA/ Staff DK's with a mana pot can string a whole bunch of them together. I think the argument is similar to the one we had over Bolt Escape. Two or three BE's is reasonable. Spamming eight in a row was not reasonable.

The best solution may be similar. Make subsequent casts of RS cost more. Leave it as a powerful situational buff. Nerf it as a sustainable, one-button, perfect defense/ offense combination against casters.

Cody · July 2014

in my opinion, this problem would be solved if every play style had an attack that ignored any magic effects/enchantments an enemy has on themselves. it would last maybe 3 or 4 seconds, and cost a good chunk of either magic or stamina. then there would be no need to nerf anything

Maulkin · July 2014

NookyZooky wrote: »

in my opinion, this problem would be solved if every play style had an attack that ignored any magic effects/enchantments an enemy has on themselves. it would last maybe 3 or 4 seconds, and cost a good chunk of either magic or stamina. then there would be no need to nerf anything

Terrible idea. Every player would then use that skill which would render all shields or buffs useless. There'll be no point for defensive skills on your bar, if there's one skill to rule them all.

Erock25 · July 2014

melodeath wrote: »

people whining about cloth wearing dk's with a staff while they are cloth wearers with staff's aswell spamming casts at a dk with wings up and tha crying about it....

really.. is every *** game the same bull'''' with people that cant comprehend anything ?

how to counter a dk...

1: use a stamina based stun=win
2: use soul assault. if a dk is beeing busy picking his nose while people kill themselves on him, you might get a full cast off =win
3: l2 roll
4:stop using spells on him when he has wings up...=stop beeing dumb=win

and if thats not enough... look at it like this..

every class has its own part in the game.

nightblades are for sneaky people going for a fast kill.
sorcerers are the powerhouses that are supposed to kill everything on sight.
templars are the hybrids that use group utility and some extra damage to support.
dk's are the actualy meatshields that stand infront the line trying to stop everything comming toward the keep.

if you just stop pretending this is wow.. and look at what the roles of these classes are, than you can see that this game actually has quite good pvp when the fps issue is solved..

I like your very scientific 'sorc are powerhouses that are supposed to kill everything on sight.'

Also, if DK was meant to be meatshield as you say, why does Reflective Scale reflect spells at 120% dmg and not just absorb them?

Erock25 · July 2014

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Sadae wrote: »

I play a stamina-based DK and I sure can't keep Scales up. It is NOT cheap!

If there are builds that can keep Scales up then the problem is with whatever is letting them keep their magicka pool up, not with the skill itself.

As it's been said part of the problem is the Syrabane set which gives you back magicka for every reflect. This is a similar situation to the Magicka Furnace set which has been nerfed since.

Tbh, I don't see the reason why a whole set should exist that boosts pretty much only one skill. Especially one skill that is as good as Reflective Scale.

But the DK in the latest 1vs10 reflective scales OP youtube video wasnt even using Syrabane and he cast reflective scales 5 times over 30 second interval all while spamming talons and flame whip and ended those 30 seconds with over 50% magicka.

Solanum · July 2014

I'm not surprised that in a game where pretty much everyone and their mothers are casters, the ability to reflect spells seems/is vastly overpowered.

Personally I don't want to *** no your hate parade, but wouldn't it be nice if not being a caster would be a equally viable option?

Maulkin · July 2014

Erock25 wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Sadae wrote: »

I play a stamina-based DK and I sure can't keep Scales up. It is NOT cheap!

If there are builds that can keep Scales up then the problem is with whatever is letting them keep their magicka pool up, not with the skill itself.

As it's been said part of the problem is the Syrabane set which gives you back magicka for every reflect. This is a similar situation to the Magicka Furnace set which has been nerfed since.

Tbh, I don't see the reason why a whole set should exist that boosts pretty much only one skill. Especially one skill that is as good as Reflective Scale.

But the DK in the latest 1vs10 reflective scales OP youtube video wasnt even using Syrabane and he cast reflective scales 5 times over 30 second interval all while spamming talons and flame whip and ended those 30 seconds with over 50% magicka.

True, he got a lot of magicka back during the vid. He got some from Warlock, some from Battler Roar and I counted two uses of V5 potion for around 450 each plus the tick. It's also worth noting he actually killed 5 players (not 10 ,gross exaggeration) of which 1 was a lvl 10 and the only melee dude (a NB) stayed under the banner till he died.

He played well while the others played very badly (as always in these videos) but you are right, he kept the Scales up for around 80% of that time while attacking and that's too much.

I still need to test whether Crushing Shock is reflected back at you. Mage's Fury and Daedric curse are definitely not. Who knows, maybe they'll increase the cost

ArconSeptim · July 2014

You are lucky I can't even see the wings from the spell...

Erock25 · July 2014

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Sadae wrote: »

I play a stamina-based DK and I sure can't keep Scales up. It is NOT cheap!

If there are builds that can keep Scales up then the problem is with whatever is letting them keep their magicka pool up, not with the skill itself.

As it's been said part of the problem is the Syrabane set which gives you back magicka for every reflect. This is a similar situation to the Magicka Furnace set which has been nerfed since.

Tbh, I don't see the reason why a whole set should exist that boosts pretty much only one skill. Especially one skill that is as good as Reflective Scale.

But the DK in the latest 1vs10 reflective scales OP youtube video wasnt even using Syrabane and he cast reflective scales 5 times over 30 second interval all while spamming talons and flame whip and ended those 30 seconds with over 50% magicka.

True, he got a lot of magicka back during the vid. He got some from Warlock, some from Battler Roar and I counted two uses of V5 potion for around 450 each plus the tick. It's also worth noting he actually killed 5 players (not 10 ,gross exaggeration) of which 1 was a lvl 10 and the only melee dude (a NB) stayed under the banner till he died.

He played well while the others played very badly (as always in these videos) but you are right, he kept the Scales up for around 80% of that time while attacking and that's too much.

I still need to test whether Crushing Shock is reflected back at you. Mage's Fury and Daedric curse are definitely not. Who knows, maybe they'll increase the cost

Crushing Shock is definitely reflected and Mage's FUry is too. Maybe the <25% isnt reflected or something because I've seen many people argue about this. I have personally seen Mage's Fury dmg on my death recap in PVP from a DK. I too would like some definitive answers on this, however.

NerfEverything · July 2014

This needs a nerf worse than Sorc's BE did.

wllstrt75b14_ESO · July 2014

dastone wrote: »

I am a night blade I have Blurr 15 percent chance for hits to be missed.

Wait. What. 120 percent damage shield on all most all ranged attacks

Why do I feel like I am sitting at the little kids table during thanksgiving

lmao cause zenimax loves NB's and as a result likes to keep them at the little kids table while taking away more of their food..ie removing their stuns...

Bashev · July 2014

So much noise for a broken skill. I don't want to think when ZoS fix the skill and more DKs start using it what will you start to do.
In 1vs1 is a good skill against players with nukes. But in 1 vs 2-3 is almost useless. 90 percent of the time I met more than 1 player in Cyrodiil. The players in the video are terrible, they will die instantly in the veteran zones.

Aeratus · July 2014

Solanum wrote: »

I'm not surprised that in a game where pretty much everyone and their mothers are casters, the ability to reflect spells seems/is vastly overpowered.

Personally I don't want to *** no your hate parade, but wouldn't it be nice if not being a caster would be a equally viable option?

DK scales reflect arrows and flying daggers. So what's this got to do with casters?

NerfEverything · July 2014

Bashev wrote: »

So much noise for a broken skill. I don't want to think when ZoS fix the skill and more DKs start using it what will you start to do.
In 1vs1 is a good skill against players with nukes. But in 1 vs 2-3 is almost useless. 90 percent of the time I met more than 1 player in Cyrodiil. The players in the video are terrible, they will die instantly in the veteran zones.

I don't think you understand what this skill does. It becomes more effective vs more enemies. You have it completely backwards. And 90% of damage in Cyro is ranged. The ability is sickeningly OP in PvP.

demonlkojipub19_ESO · July 2014

Snit wrote: »

piotreb17_ESO4 wrote: »

Sorry, but if there is currently one class that rules others, it is Sorcerers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGIxhsVWIE8

That 'overpowered' sorc uses two spells to attack, Crushing Shock and Crystal Fragments. Those are the two spammable nukes we can access.

Both are 100% countered by Reflecting Scales.

So, you make a good point. Perhaps not the point you meant, though.

You should actually watch the video. You would notice he killed multiple dragon knights who were using scales.

This guy knows how to play, take notes.

Vis · July 2014

Eylith wrote: »

Do you guys realise that all nerfs (including this one) only involved mage DK ? Are you thinking about what you're doing to all DKs who doesn't play in full light armor destro/heal staf ?

Sorry for my broken english, please correct me (or I don't learn).

The only logical argument against a nerf I have yet to hear. Though, the DKs spamming scales also use SnB and it is a sad reality that 90% of DKs are in 7/7 LA.

Vis · July 2014

piotreb17_ESO4 wrote: »

Vis wrote: »

I must officially reverse my position on "No More Nerfs."

DK scales spam have reached new epic proportions. We all knew the skill was OP, but I was alright with it because it was rare to run into a DK who spammed it continuously ....

However, the cat is now out of the bag.

Every DK worth anything now has Scales up 100% of the time in every fight. And why not? It costs almost the same as bolt (with no cd penalties) and effectively removes more than 80% of all dps skills.

Scales can reflect all single target spells, arrows, and even thrown daggers. It's AMAZING!

AND it's dirt cheap. If only the majority of us took a look at how little magicka scales costs, there would be a mob.

What are we supposed to do?

Use aoes at melee range (against a DK, good luck)?
Hope a DK is dumb enough to stand in a ground effect?
Pull out our stamina melee builds (hahahahahaha)?
Use any of the 3-4 skills that are very low in dps?

1.) You created a class that can effectively dps as high as any other (talons/whip)
2.) Tank like a god (green dragon blood)
3.) AND reflect the majority of all dps skills against ALL players in a fight

Yes, I could very slowly burn down a DK with my low dps aoe/melee skills IF he did not have the best self heal in game and ONLY IF he did not have the means to kill me in a 10th of the time.

If you are a DK who has lost a 1v1 ... you are way behind your fellow brothers.

I don't blame the many people now re-rolling DKs, it would be stupid not to.

Did I miss something here?

ZOS, DO YOU PLAY YOUR OWN GAME???

Brace yourselves, DKs who want to protect their ez-mode are coming ...

Scales are the only real DK tool against ranged attacks, as DKs do not have any real (20+ m) abilities.
So if DK would not have Scales any other class with 20+ attacks would melt DK on a sight.
If you know the game and not have major problem with your eyes, it is really hard not to see Scales animation.

Sorry, but if there is currently one class that rules others, it is Sorcerers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGIxhsVWIE8

Not true, DKs have more than enough gap closers to choose from as well as access to range attacks in the weapon lines.

And seriously? You're going to use a video of a sorc ganking lower level noobs from stealth as your example?

Vis · July 2014

GothicPython wrote: »

Vis wrote: »

Archaon wrote: »

Over 400 magicka base cost and it costs additional resources when reflecting a skill. Add it has one of the most easy to see animations and there you got buttom smashers whinning for more nerfs.

Under 400 magicka base cost (fixed it for you). What are you afraid of? That your DK would no longer be able to mindlessly spam an Iwin button?

The only game play promoting button smashing is hitting scales and then typing lol lol lol.

No...he was right, the base cost for scales at level 50+ is 420 magicka. And it also consumes additional magicka for every RANGED PROJECTILE it deflects.

Last time I checked 420 > 400

http://www.esohead.com/skills/21017-dragon-fire-scale

Scale it to max level. Even if the tooltip were off by 20, any reduction (which the vast majority of DKs have) put it well into the spammable range.

Erock25 · July 2014

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

Aeratus wrote: »

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

i think the certain dks who can block forever are worse. They dont even need scales, you cant kill them in a 1 on 1.

And scales lasts 4 seconds and doesnt even reflect all magic.

DKs who just block aren't a problem because is a tactic common to all classes. On the other hand, scales is not.

Snit wrote: »

piotreb17_ESO4 wrote: »

Sorry, but if there is currently one class that rules others, it is Sorcerers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGIxhsVWIE8

That 'overpowered' sorc uses two spells to attack, Crushing Shock and Crystal Fragments. Those are the two spammable nukes we can access.

Both are 100% countered by Reflecting Scales.

So, you make a good point. Perhaps not the point you meant, though.

You should actually watch the video. You would notice he killed multiple dragon knights who were using scales.

This guy knows how to play, take notes.

1. Dragon Knight he runs into around 3:50 doesnt use Scales until he is at 35% hp. DK uses scales at 3:58 and that sorc goes from full HP to 50%hp over the next 4 seconds damaging himself. Then at 4:02 when Scales runs off, Sorc finishes off the DK.

- What I learned here is hope the DK doesn't lead with Reflective Scales and also hope the DK doesn't recast it when it runs out.

2. DK uses scales in the fight around the 7:20 mark. DK uses SCales at 7:21and then again at 7:26. So from 7:21 to 7:31 or so, besides the two casts of Reflective Scales the DK does nothing besides swing his sword uselessly out of range and complete miss a Talons cast and then Shield Charge and the DK is 100% health while the Sorc is down to 32% with all of that dmg being self inflicted besides the shield charge. This poor DK then, who I'd like to add whiffs on light attack sword swings about 9 times throughout this fight, forgets about his trusty Reflective Scales for some reason.

- What I learned is to hope the DK forgets to cast Reflective Scales

And this is it. Two DKs used Reflective Scale over that whole video and for the times they had it up, this Sorc completely destroyed himself and did ZERO dmg to the DK. Maybe you should actually watch the video and take notes.