Dragonknights are the only real unbalanced class.

Surinen

vicNBitis wrote: »

Because...there...are...10? Am I being recorded??? Feels like this is some reality show set up.

and what about them being 10? you defeat Mannimarco and Molag Bal. is there a problem with ten packs of some random, unimportant dunderheads? I prefer to feel powerful, you don't?
definately, this is a casting to a new show "10 pack won't crack" where our noble heroes fight against endless waves of monsters constructed by the powerful wielder of mechamagick known as Weider, an architect of living muscle army 'The Workouts'

Erock25

Surinen wrote: »

vicNBitis wrote: »

Because...there...are...10? Am I being recorded??? Feels like this is some reality show set up.

and what about them being 10? you defeat Mannimarco and Molag Bal. is there a problem with ten packs of some random, unimportant dunderheads? I prefer to feel powerful, you don't?
definately, this is a casting to a new show "10 pack won't crack" where our noble heroes fight against endless waves of monsters constructed by the powerful wielder of mechamagick known as Weider, an architect of living muscle army 'The Workouts'

If you want to have a discussion on how difficult an MMO should be, I suggest you start a new topic.

Surinen

Erock25 wrote: »

If you want to have a discussion on how difficult an MMO should be, I suggest you start a new topic.

I appreciate suggestion but it is not necessary. I would like to point that it is not 'an MMO', it is supposedly "TES MMO".

vicNBitis

Surinen wrote: »

and what about them being 10? you defeat Mannimarco and Molag Bal. is there a problem with ten packs of some random, unimportant dunderheads? I prefer to feel powerful, you don't?
definately, this is a casting to a new show "10 pack won't crack" where our noble heroes fight against endless waves of monsters constructed by the powerful wielder of mechamagick known as Weider, an architect of living muscle army 'The Workouts'

So basically you don't ever want to die or any risk of that ever happening? You know Sims sounds perfect for you. I hear you can even make them do naughty things *wink* *wink*

Surinen

vicNBitis wrote: »

[
So basically you don't ever want to die or any risk of that ever happening? You know Sims sounds perfect for you. I hear you can even make them do naughty things *wink* *wink*

hm, how did you came to such conclusion? but to be perfectly honest with you, yes, I would prefer to avoid dying. if there is any glorified state of enlightenement obtained through dying, then, please, if it is possible share this arcane knowledge with me. also I think that trials are a good place for people to die, plenty of opportunities to extinguish thyself. you can even call it 'learning curve' or 'enhancement of gameplay'. but dying to regular, lowly bred creatures (that is except noble-and-abominable Veiled Heritance) is unthinkable to me.
grattitude, I offer you warm feelings for such exquisitely wise suggestion.

NordJitsu

There is a dilemma here.

Currently Dragon Knights are without a doubt the most powerful class. There really is no arguing that point and doing so just makes you look ignorant.

For PvP, it would clearly be preferable to buff all the other classes. That way DKs don't rage-quit over having their OPness taken away and everyone gets to feel powerful.

For PvE, buffing the other classes would make the content essentially trivial. Its already fairly easy (with all classes) for any skilled players. I play a Sorc and I can easily solo all the group dungeons in the game. My buddy Rizzla plays a Templar and he solo'ed everything on his way to VR10. I actually don't know that many NBs, and none of them have finished the game as far as I know, but I've seen videos of NBs doing some crazy stuff too.

So at this point, buffing the 3 lesser classes would need to be met with an equal buff in the PvE content (which really should be done anyway.)

That's a lot more work than just fixing the DKs would be.

Here's my suggestions for nerfs (which I consider minor):

Reflective Scales

First, the skill shouldn't prevent all damage. You should receive damage mitigation (maybe 80-90%) and knock it back to the attacker.

Second, non-projectile spells need a buff. Force Shock is getting buffed in 1.1, but its still rather pathetic really. It still needs about a 50% damage increase (or return to a 100% chance to proc status effects.) Daedric Curse could also use a bit of a damage increase (just on the applied target, not the AoE portion.) This would effectively enable Reflective Scales to be countered.

Dark Talons

Skill itself doesn't need to be touched. Its super powerful, but the big problem is that it can be reapplied easily. A 2-4 sec immunity after dodge rolling out of ALL immobilizes and roots would solve the issue.

It could maybe use a small cost increase as well though, to prevent the spam.

Lava Whip


Reduce the damage. Its simply hitting too hard for what it does, since it also grants great utility.

Dragon's Blood

Simply reduce the healing it gives back. 33% is pretty ridiculous. 25% would be much more reasonable.

Do just those minor things and we'd be in good shape I think.

dracobains_ESO

Surinen wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

If you want to have a discussion on how difficult an MMO should be, I suggest you start a new topic.

I appreciate suggestion but it is not necessary. I would like to point that it is not 'an MMO', it is supposedly "TES MMO".

If it is Massive (M), Multiplayer (M), and Online (O) then it is an MMO no matter how you want to split hairs on the nuances.

Surinen

dracobains_ESO wrote: »

If it is Massive (M), Multiplayer (M), and Online (O) then it is an MMO no matter how you want to split hairs on the nuances.

thank you very much for an explanation. correct me if I'm wrong, but do you imply that 'MMO' alone describes kind of gameplay (that is except for massive multiplayer and online) game offers? to me at least, The (T), Elder (E), Scrolls (S) carries a much bigger meaning, one that defines the game, while MMO stands for medium.

Maverick827

vicNBitis wrote: »

KoooZ wrote: »

I... think there's some fundamental break in communication here. Until the last paragraph I thought you were making the same argument as him not realizing he was on your side.. but then you said it's 100% the DK and I became confused.

Yes, it's 100% DK. There's no stacking of ultimate-effecting armor sets or vampire nonsense. It's all DK. Just like it was all NB when we were able to chain Veils. That was fixed pre-launch, right? After about a week IIRC. DK cheese? Well, that can wait of course.

I never said he was stacking ultimate reduction effects, I said that the amount of ultimate gained from AoE was too high. That's what all of these PvE videos have in common. Someone hitting a dozen mobs with some ability, using an ultimate, hitting them again, and then having enough to ultimate again.

They should just change ultimate generation to some static amount gained per second while in combat. Maybe keep the ultimate gain when you interrupt or dodge roll if it really tickles their fancies.

dracobains_ESO

For whatever reasons, ESO only allowed a small circle of individuals to test this game thoroughly. One of my friends happened to get an opening to this round table of the privileged and played a few hours on 2 occasions. I will leave out all of his expletives, but he essentially told me to avoid this game and all the elitist "$%^&s" playing it. But, I fell in love with PVP in beta and ignored his advice.

Now PVP in beta was fairly balanced because you did not run into V10 toons, and while you certainly took notice when a level 40-50 toon smashed into you, which was rare, you never felt helpless. There was the appearance of parity. However, all these individuals in the inner circle testing were spending endless hours honing their skills finding the best possible combinations and how to fight other classes, as some have already attested to doing in this very thread. A fair portion of them also seemed to discover most of the exploits in game mechanics to make their path to V10 relatively quick and painless. They had the inside scoop and the world be damned if that was getting shared openly. It's human nature so I really can't blame them.

So now you have a general population struggling to get comfortable with the interface and unusual aspects of this game compared to other MMOs all the while a segment of the population is frollicking through content like it is child's play telling everyone else they suck balls and need to learn the game better. Well, my question to you elitist few, is where is all this information to be had? It is getting somewhat better, but this game has been disgustingly tight lipped about game mechanics. Few of those players who hurled themselves to the top of the pile had any insights to offer the masses while they drove their egos to the top of the mountain so they can sneer at the rest of the piddling population.

The real disaster to these powerful builds came about not so much because the elite knowledgeable players discovered them and are abusing the hell out of everyone who is not in the know, but the fact that someone in the planning of this game created an atmosphere where elitist players could thrive and feed upon the masses while they still had their training wheels on. Now all these players are on top and have a huge disparaging advantage calling everyone else whiners for not being able to match their gameplay. It is disingenuous at best and brimming with arrogant self indulgence.

Someone made some really poor decisions that resulted in a limited well trained player base that is wreaking havoc on new players which creates a sense of helplessness. If a person feels like they have no agency to control their fate, it will ALWAYS create a level of undue frustration and outbreaks on the forums of people voicing that frustration. Really poor decisions were made here. Yes there will always be players crying out about this and that wanting everything their way, but I do not think this is one of those cases. I think there is some very valid reasons for the frustration and despair.

If there was no despair then you would know players did not care about the state of the game. However, the core of this game is amazing. Graphics are stunning and it is the best PVP model to come along since DAOC. So players want to be a meaningful part of the population and fun. Yet if you create an environment where they are not having any fun, that every aspect feels like an exercise in futility, they will do several things, leave, speak out, and a few will give a patient nod and grant some time to see if things get better. All of these things are happening in big numbers and the hardy fanboys will be left roaming Cyrodiil all by themselves if the sense of parity is not brought back into the gameplay in a meaningful and rapid manner.

I'll spare you my verbose rant about nightblades and the horrendous Vet zones for another thread.

Wifeaggro13

dracobains_ESO wrote: »

For whatever reasons, ESO only allowed a small circle of individuals to test this game thoroughly. One of my friends happened to get an opening to this round table of the privileged and played a few hours on 2 occasions. I will leave out all of his expletives, but he essentially told me to avoid this game and all the elitist "$%^&s" playing it. But, I fell in love with PVP in beta and ignored his advice.

Now PVP in beta was fairly balanced because you did not run into V10 toons, and while you certainly took notice when a level 40-50 toon smashed into you, which was rare, you never felt helpless. There was the appearance of parity. However, all these individuals in the inner circle testing were spending endless hours honing their skills finding the best possible combinations and how to fight other classes, as some have already attested to doing in this very thread. A fair portion of them also seemed to discover most of the exploits in game mechanics to make their path to V10 relatively quick and painless. They had the inside scoop and the world be damned if that was getting shared openly. It's human nature so I really can't blame them.

So now you have a general population struggling to get comfortable with the interface and unusual aspects of this game compared to other MMOs all the while a segment of the population is frollicking through content like it is child's play telling everyone else they suck balls and need to learn the game better. Well, my question to you elitist few, is where is all this information to be had? It is getting somewhat better, but this game has been disgustingly tight lipped about game mechanics. Few of those players who hurled themselves to the top of the pile had any insights to offer the masses while they drove their egos to the top of the mountain so they can sneer at the rest of the piddling population.

The real disaster to these powerful builds came about not so much because the elite knowledgeable players discovered them and are abusing the hell out of everyone who is not in the know, but the fact that someone in the planning of this game created an atmosphere where elitist players could thrive and feed upon the masses while they still had their training wheels on. Now all these players are on top and have a huge disparaging advantage calling everyone else whiners for not being able to match their gameplay. It is disingenuous at best and brimming with arrogant self indulgence.

Someone made some really poor decisions that resulted in a limited well trained player base that is wreaking havoc on new players which creates a sense of helplessness. If a person feels like they have no agency to control their fate, it will ALWAYS create a level of undue frustration and outbreaks on the forums of people voicing that frustration. Really poor decisions were made here. Yes there will always be players crying out about this and that wanting everything their way, but I do not think this is one of those cases. I think there is some very valid reasons for the frustration and despair.

If there was no despair then you would know players did not care about the state of the game. However, the core of this game is amazing. Graphics are stunning and it is the best PVP model to come along since DAOC. So players want to be a meaningful part of the population and fun. Yet if you create an environment where they are not having any fun, that every aspect feels like an exercise in futility, they will do several things, leave, speak out, and a few will give a patient nod and grant some time to see if things get better. All of things are happening in big numbers and the hardy fanboys will be left roaming Cyrodiil all by themselves if the sense of parity is not brought back into gameplay in a meaningful and rapid manner.

I'll spare you my verbose rant about nightblades and the horrendous Vet zones for another thread.

Night blades are horrendous. but seriously this game is not elitist pro only. everquest 2 was far harsher and more complex .this game is pretty easy and rather fun. its the imbalance that is causing the frustration and tempers to flare. they did make some rather bad decisions as well as some great ones. But no MMO launches balanced and complete

vicNBitis

Maverick827 wrote: »

I never said he was stacking ultimate reduction effects, I said that the amount of ultimate gained from AoE was too high. That's what all of these PvE videos have in common. Someone hitting a dozen mobs with some ability, using an ultimate, hitting them again, and then having enough to ultimate again.

They should just change ultimate generation to some static amount gained per second while in combat. Maybe keep the ultimate gain when you interrupt or dodge roll if it really tickles their fancies.

I don't think the ultimate gain is from the AOE. There are various places discussing this and from the comments it seems to be from taking damage(even trivial amounts). It's viable with smaller packs though. The video was just a proof of concept about how absurd it can be.

But the video just distracts from the point that DKs are obvioously OP with or without cheese.

Maverick827

vicNBitis wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

I never said he was stacking ultimate reduction effects, I said that the amount of ultimate gained from AoE was too high. That's what all of these PvE videos have in common. Someone hitting a dozen mobs with some ability, using an ultimate, hitting them again, and then having enough to ultimate again.

They should just change ultimate generation to some static amount gained per second while in combat. Maybe keep the ultimate gain when you interrupt or dodge roll if it really tickles their fancies.

I don't think the ultimate gain is from the AOE. There are various places discussing this and from the comments it seems to be from taking damage(even trivial amounts). It's viable with smaller packs though. The video was just a proof of concept about how absurd it can be.

But the video just distracts from the point that DKs are obvioously OP with or without cheese.

Yeah, you're just trolling. It's obvious that wouldn't be possible without all of that ultimate gain, which is, again, obviously the problem.

Gwarok

Over-evaluation IS way off the hook in this thread.

#JustMy2CentsWorth

vicNBitis

Maverick827 wrote: »

Yeah, you're just trolling. It's obvious that wouldn't be possible without all of that ultimate gain, which is, again, obviously the problem.

No, we've established DKs are overpowered. The video establishes overpowered DKs are miles and miles beyond NBs that abused Veil spam which took Zenimax a week to fix. They are two problems.

But nice to see you're consistent. When you're wrong you deflect. I'm sure no one will notice you crying about getting nerfed when the inevitable happens.

Obscure

@NordJitsu‌
I'm not certain those will fix anything lol, and in some cases make the problem more exaggerated.

Your Reflective Nerf: now that the DK only soaks most of the damage and reflects you open the door for dual magicka regen (restore staff block and Syrabane on reflect) and double ultimate generation. It'll only result in increased sustain and ultimate generation, which is the actual problem. NAHW I HAZ MOAR BANNERZ!

A proper fix would be a set number of projectiles that can be reflected during its 4 second duration. As it stands I could have 4 attackers or 400, every shot they take is reflected regardless. Limit it to 10, test it to see if that's too many or too few, adjust and test again till we find the magic number.

Your Dark Talons Nerf: Too lenient. 2-3 seconds is perfect timing for magicka recovery ticks. When I used Talons my timing was already at 2-3 seconds in practical application due to magicka management in medium armor. Immobilize needs an identical immunity time to CC and a practical skill to use to hard counter the effect (Evasion is a perfect candidate).

Your Lava Whip Nerf: It's a raw damage skill. Toning down the damage on a damage skill creates more problems: "mediocre damage? Meh just bring more CC it's not that great." Anticipation of the meta games "reflex" to being poked with nerfs to direct damage options is seemingly going to turn PvP into CC wars, where everyone is very slowly annoyed to death.

My fix would be to give more class skills across the board a higher base damage. Where's all the nukes? Everyone is building Tank/DPS hybrids (or healers) because they're entirely too viable since not enough skills hit hard enough to completely wreck someone who's built to be tough. To much tanking not enough spanking.

Your Dragons Blood Nerf: I'm going to have to say that's not really a problem inside the skill. I'll give you a for instance: 3001 HP. Wait until you have 1 HP, use Dragons Blood, it restores 1000 HP, instantly, and increases health recovery for a decent amount of time (think it's 14 seconds, maybe 18). Anyhow point is 1/3 (33%) of missing health is only potent when health value is "OMFG IMMA BOUT TO DIE!" low levels. At 25% health for 3000 HP we have 750 HP, missing health is 2250, and 33% of that is also 750. The difference in health gained between use at 1% and 25% has dropped by 1/4 (25%). This diminished return system balances the skill's direct healing ability and discourages spamming. It's honestly the only inherently balanced heal in the game where it is always relevant to player HP and % of that HP.

The place it goes bad is stacking +% Healing ontop which turns those above numbers up by as much as 50% (that I've seen, maybe some can do better). That needs to be addressed first.

Generally I think Healing needs to be turned down, damage needs to be turned up, CC (immobilize included) needs to be turned down, and that goes for the game in general across the board. Suppose we only disagree on the method or degree of said changes.

vicNBitis

Obscure wrote: »

Your Dark Talons Nerf: Too lenient. 2-3 seconds is perfect timing for magicka recovery ticks. When I used Talons my timing was already at 2-3 seconds in practical application due to magicka management in medium armor. Immobilize needs an identical immunity time to CC and a practical skill to use to hard counter the effect (Evasion is a perfect candidate).

No thanks. I'd rather not have to have my NB carry around a useless skill like evasion simply to help make DKs less OP. No, a simple nerf will do just fine. As I've said elsewhere talons should not have everything. It needs to become an ultimate or lose cc or become prohibitively expensive. Or preferably two of those things.

vicNBitis

vicNBitis wrote: »

No thanks. I'd rather not have to have my NB carry around a useless skill like evasion simply to help make DKs less OP. No, a simple nerf will do just fine. As I've said elsewhere talons should not have everything. It needs to become an ultimate or lose cc or become prohibitively expensive. Or preferably two of those things.

Or better yet let's list all the things talons has going for it and the DKs here can explain why they should retain each:

1) crowd control
2) damage-over-time or debuff
3) direct damage
4) synergy
5) non-ultimate
6) tier 2
7) spammable cost

Who's first?

Maverick827

vicNBitis wrote: »

vicNBitis wrote: »

No thanks. I'd rather not have to have my NB carry around a useless skill like evasion simply to help make DKs less OP. No, a simple nerf will do just fine. As I've said elsewhere talons should not have everything. It needs to become an ultimate or lose cc or become prohibitively expensive. Or preferably two of those things.

Or better yet let's list all the things talons has going for it and the DKs here can explain why they should retain each:

1) crowd control
2) damage-over-time or debuff
3) direct damage
4) synergy
5) non-ultimate
6) tier 2
7) spammable cost

Who's first?

2 & 3) Separating these is largely unnecessary. It does "damage." How much "damage" it does and when (up front, over time) can be adjusted if necessary. You're just trying to pad your little list with entries.

5) The fact that it's not an ultimate only matters if it's deemed to be "too powerful" to be a regular skill, which is something you're currently trying to prove, so you can't use this as part of the argument to prove that. This is called begging the question.

6) For all intents and purposes, the fact that it's tier 2 does not matter. At the end-game, a skill is a skill no matter when you get it. No one is complaining that a level 10 DK killed their level 10 Templar with Dark Talons.

7) It's only spammable if you heavily stack cost reduction (e.g., Light Armor), in which case everything is spammable (because Light Armor is OP), and is an issue with the power of stacking cost reduction itself, not any specific skill.

vicNBitis

Maverick827 wrote: »

2 & 3) Separating these is largely unnecessary. It does "damage." How much "damage" it does and when (up front, over time) can be adjusted if necessary. You're just trying to pad your little list with entries.

There are plenty of skills that do one or the other. And plenty that do both. There must be some explanation for this fact. Maybe it was random.

Maverick827 wrote: »

5) The fact that it's not an ultimate only matters if it's deemed to be "too powerful" to be a regular skill, which is something you're currently trying to prove, so you can't use this as part of the argument to prove that. This is called begging the question.

No, it's not. It would be if my proposed solution was making it an ultimate but I've done no such thing. I'm simply listing characteristics of the skill. And one of those is that it's not an ultimate.

Maverick827 wrote: »

6) For all intents and purposes, the fact that it's tier 2 does not matter. At the end-game, a skill is a skill no matter when you get it. No one is complaining that a level 10 DK killed their level 10 Templar with Dark Talons.

Last I checked no one is limiting this discussion to PvP. For PvE end-game, it doesn't really matter when you get it. But it matters a whole lot to the non-DKs who actually have to work at leveling. Anyways, if DKs got this OP skill at tier 5 it'd only be slightly less OP.

Maverick827 wrote: »

7) It's only spammable if you heavily stack cost reduction (e.g., Light Armor), in which case everything is spammable (because Light Armor is OP), and is an issue with the power of stacking cost reduction itself, not any specific skill.

Effectively spammable. Of course you're not going to mash on the key like it's Impulse or something! But you can use it 3-4 times in a pack pull which is enough. Just checked my DK and it's wearing 4 light and 3 heavy and it's been spamming talons forever. I've literally paid zero attention to anything on that toon and I've never had any issues.

I notice you didn't address (1) & (4). Should I assume those are the ones you could live without?

Maverick827

1 & 4 are the core benefits of the skill. The rest were proposed "extra" benefits of the skill that I debunked.

Theron75

Thread needs to be renamed: Official Dragon Knight QQ Thread

Anzer

vicNBitis wrote: »

Or better yet let's list all the things talons has going for it and the DKs here can explain why they should retain each:

1) crowd control
4) synergy

Lets remove CC from a tanking skill. That'll make the game more enjoyable for everyone that plays with a DK I'm sure.
Synergy with what? Other AoE skills? Isn't that what a tank is supposed to do, keep mobs contained so damage can kill everything?

Obscure

vicNBitis wrote: »

Obscure wrote: »

Your Dark Talons Nerf: Too lenient. 2-3 seconds is perfect timing for magicka recovery ticks. When I used Talons my timing was already at 2-3 seconds in practical application due to magicka management in medium armor. Immobilize needs an identical immunity time to CC and a practical skill to use to hard counter the effect (Evasion is a perfect candidate).

No thanks. I'd rather not have to have my NB carry around a useless skill like evasion simply to help make DKs less OP. No, a simple nerf will do just fine. As I've said elsewhere talons should not have everything. It needs to become an ultimate or lose cc or become prohibitively expensive. Or preferably two of those things.

Evasion as in the medium armor skill. Morphs to Elude for extra Dodge per medium armor piece, or to Shuffle which removes snares per piece of medium armor. If it made the user immune to immobilize and snares for 8 seconds in addition to it's other effects it'd be a fair shake with Immovable, the heavy armor skill.

Nerf Talons all ya want, immobilize spam will still exist and skilled players will continue to use the other sources of it to lock down targets. The damage? Meh, I can often ignore it (Dunmer DK). Reduced damage output? I'm playing defensive till you burn out anyways. The immobilize is the nasty part and it's not exactly the only girl in town that'll give me what I'm looking for.

vicNBitis

Maverick827 wrote: »

1 & 4 are the core benefits of the skill. The rest were proposed "extra" benefits of the skill that I debunked.

Wow, maybe you should go back to the JV debate team and practice more. You accuse me, wrongly, of begging the question then you do it yourself. "Core benefits" of the skill. Ha! I guess we can't discuss Impulse, or Critical Surge or any other skill either as long as the tool tip is accurate.

Anyone else want to take a shot?

Maverick827

vicNBitis wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

1 & 4 are the core benefits of the skill. The rest were proposed "extra" benefits of the skill that I debunked.

Wow, maybe you should go back to the JV debate team and practice more. You accuse me, wrongly, of begging the question then you do it yourself. "Core benefits" of the skill. Ha! I guess we can't discuss Impulse, or Critical Surge or any other skill either as long as the tool tip is accurate.

Anyone else want to take a shot?

I don't think you know what "begging the question" means.

vicNBitis

Anzer wrote: »

Lets remove CC from a tanking skill. That'll make the game more enjoyable for everyone that plays with a DK I'm sure.
Synergy with what? Other AoE skills? Isn't that what a tank is supposed to do, keep mobs contained so damage can kill everything?

Synergy as in it can be activated for additional affect by someone else. You know like Soul Shred(ultimate), Consuming Darkness(ultimate), Storm Atronach(ultimate), & Nova(ultimate). The only non-ultimates that have this are Lightning Splash(tier 3 and miles aways from talons) and Cleansing Ritual(tier 4 and no benefit to AOE grinding).

So cc is needed for the tank DK. Well, if they somehow lose this I have advice chambered. It's the same advice everyone's been giving to non-DK tanks for a couple weeks now--Volcanic Rune.

P.S. There's a lorebooks addon if you ever need it.

Anzer

vicNBitis wrote: »

Anzer wrote: »

Lets remove CC from a tanking skill. That'll make the game more enjoyable for everyone that plays with a DK I'm sure.
Synergy with what? Other AoE skills? Isn't that what a tank is supposed to do, keep mobs contained so damage can kill everything?

Synergy as in it can be activated for additional affect by someone else. You know like Soul Shred(ultimate), Consuming Darkness(ultimate), Storm Atronach(ultimate), & Nova(ultimate). The only non-ultimates that have this are Lightning Splash(tier 3 and miles aways from talons) and Cleansing Ritual(tier 4 and no benefit to AOE grinding).

So cc is needed for the tank DK. Well, if they somehow lose this I have advice chambered. It's the same advice everyone's been giving to non-DK tanks for a couple weeks now--Volcanic Rune.

P.S. There's a lorebooks addon if you ever need it.

Ah, that kind of synergy, gotcha. Sure, take that out, it wouldn't detract from the function of the skill in my opinion.
You don't seem to have signatures turned on, otherwise you might notice that my namesake is a NB tank, so I am well aware of hard CC options. You did miss Sorcerer, though theirs is in a frontal cone.

Obscure

@vicNBitis
You keep saying "tier"and I'm pretty sure you're thinking it matters alot more than it actually does. The VR10 Emperor spamming it doesn't really care he unlocked it at level 5...

...just saying...not important nor substantial in any debate on the subject.

vicNBitis

Obscure wrote: »

Evasion as in the medium armor skill. Morphs to Elude for extra Dodge per medium armor piece, or to Shuffle which removes snares per piece of medium armor. If it made the user immune to immobilize and snares for 8 seconds in addition to it's other effects it'd be a fair shake with Immovable, the heavy armor skill.

Yeah, that's the one. It's horrible. Even used in conjunction with Blur it's nowhere near Immovable. I don't know but I tried it. You'd think 20 seconds of stacked dodge/evade would be awesome but boy was I wrong. It could be the lack of immunities I guess. Hard to judge what makes Immovable so good. The buff from Shadow Barrier(which is also huge) is amazing by itself. I don't know. All I see this doing is taking a useless skill and making it situational. An improvement yes but seems like a lot of trouble just to avoid a nerf to talons.

Obscure wrote: »

Nerf Talons all ya want, immobilize spam will still exist and skilled players will continue to use the other sources of it to lock down targets. The damage? Meh, I can often ignore it (Dunmer DK). Reduced damage output? I'm playing defensive till you burn out anyways. The immobilize is the nasty part and it's not exactly the only girl in town that'll give me what I'm looking for.

Better DKs lose the bar space than everyone else.