Dragonknights are the only real unbalanced class.

cbbouletb16_ESO

Yes, Nightblades seem to need a bit of love, but they really need their passives to work properly more than anything. The magicka assassination build still works fantastic for PvP.


DK needs nerfs on almost every single ability.
(Spoiler: This is also a guide to beating every person and thing in the game)

Most notably: Dragon's Blood, Reflective Scale, Dark Talons, Standard of Might
And the passive Battle Roar.

These skills/passive in particular are what makes them so stupidly overpowered. Far beyond every other class.

Their costs are low and their effects are stronger than any other ability in the game.
Running 7 light armor with warlock set lets you spam these without much dent in your magicka at all.

Reflective Scale and Choking Talons alones makes you immune to both projectile and melee attacks without much cost, while also providing easy amounts of damage output to everyone.
Getting low? Green Dragon's Blood with some healing passives and sets will keep you immortal.
Getting into trouble? Just pop Standard of Might. You become near invincible with the most powerful ability in the game AND gain all your resources back. 35% damage reduction, +35% damage output, healing reduction, immobilize, ridiculous DPS. All this skill needs is the ability to summon Molag himself. Although it probably wouldn't make it that much better.

The only thing that comes close to countering you is Soul Strike and all you need to do is pop Dragon's Blood.


Dragonknights, enjoy this free guide on beating everyone and everything in the entire game.
Run Sword/Shield to combo with your increased block amount passive to take even less damage. Green's Dragon Blood will keep your stamina up. Run spiked armor for free armor cap. The last skill can be anything you want. Defensive Stance will decrease your block cost and CInder Storm will let you chase, kite, and dodge for days.




DIscuss your thoughts on Dragonknights and please rate the intelligence of the developer team. Or maybe they're just doing the "favorite of the month" approach and never plan on balancing the game at all.

Don't bother with "QQ" comments. I'm actually looking for a discussion.

NordJitsu

Regardless of your feelings or mine on class balance, I think its down right rude to ask us to "rate the developer's intelligence."

Try posting feedback more constructively if you want a conversation.

I'll hold my feedback until that line is removed.

cbbouletb16_ESO

NordJitsu wrote: »

Regardless of your feelings or mine on class balance, I think its down right rude to ask us to "rate the developer's intelligence."

Try posting feedback more constructively if you want a conversation.

I'll hold my feedback until that line is removed.

I think what they've done is far more rude.

NordJitsu

Do you really think the developers would have made an intentionally unbalanced game?

They aren't trying to troll you. They want your money and they want you to enjoy the game. They want it to be balanced. There's nothing rude about game design. Even if you're right, they at most made a mistake.

I do think you've given some valuable feedback here (from your perspective) about how you feel about class balance. That said, you're likely to get more respect and a better response from the dev team if you remain constructive and polite while giving your feedback.

Dantonian_Rarstiana

NordJitsu you are contradicting yourself.
You say that the OP shouldn't ask us to discuss how stupid we think the devs are, and that you wont participate until that line is removed. Then in your very next post (while the line still has not been removed) you tell us these issues are not intentional, that the devs just aren't smart enough to make a working class system.

You are clearly very emotional about any negative feedback to the game.

You should take a break my friend.

Maverick827

This thread is the only REAL whine thread.

Travail

Once the Nightblade gets their abilities fixed, watch for them to become the new FOTM that everyone wants to play. They have some seriously powerful skills, just not all of them work right now, or they are more trouble than they are worth because they have a chance of breaking your entire character and forcing a relog.

As for the dev rating thing, it's not about their intelligence, but about the fact that this is their first crack at an MMO. It shows with a lot of issues that other developers solved a long time ago. How they've handled instancing/phasing of content; how they handled branching storylines (preventing players from grouping with each other during these branches); how they handled open-world looting, chests, and gear drops; the class imbalances, but more importantly the broken skills that are still giving them issues a month into launch; lag spikes, delays when using abilities, and a general clunky feel of many of their combat mechanics like dodge rolling and weapon swapping; etc.

It's not stupidity, it's inexperience. We saw almost all of these things in SW:ToR as well, because BioWare also had no experience with multiplayer games (nevermind MMOs.)

What they can be blamed for is not doing their homework, for failing to recognize both the strengths and weaknesses of other MMOs on the market. That's something both Wildstar and EQN seem to be paying close attention to, and both are shaping up to be very solid contributions to the genre.

-Travail.

Xsorus

cbbouletb16_ESO wrote: »

Yes, Nightblades seem to need a bit of love, but they really need their passives to work properly more than anything. The magicka assassination build still works fantastic for PvP.


DK needs nerfs on almost every single ability.
(Spoiler: This is also a guide to beating every person and thing in the game)

Most notably: Dragon's Blood, Reflective Scale, Dark Talons, Standard of Might
And the passive Battle Roar.

These skills/passive in particular are what makes them so stupidly overpowered. Far beyond every other class.

Their costs are low and their effects are stronger than any other ability in the game.
Running 7 light armor with warlock set lets you spam these without much dent in your magicka at all.

Reflective Scale and Choking Talons alones makes you immune to both projectile and melee attacks without much cost, while also providing easy amounts of damage output to everyone.
Getting low? Green Dragon's Blood with some healing passives and sets will keep you immortal.
Getting into trouble? Just pop Standard of Might. You become near invincible with the most powerful ability in the game AND gain all your resources back. 35% damage reduction, +35% damage output, healing reduction, immobilize, ridiculous DPS. All this skill needs is the ability to summon Molag himself. Although it probably wouldn't make it that much better.

The only thing that comes close to countering you is Soul Strike and all you need to do is pop Dragon's Blood.


Dragonknights, enjoy this free guide on beating everyone and everything in the entire game.
Run Sword/Shield to combo with your increased block amount passive to take even less damage. Green's Dragon Blood will keep your stamina up. Run spiked armor for free armor cap. The last skill can be anything you want. Defensive Stance will decrease your block cost and CInder Storm will let you chase, kite, and dodge for days.




DIscuss your thoughts on Dragonknights and please rate the intelligence of the developer team. Or maybe they're just doing the "favorite of the month" approach and never plan on balancing the game at all.

Don't bother with "QQ" comments. I'm actually looking for a discussion.

Just for Curiosity sake...With this 7 light armor build you're running, What you going to run for damage?

I see you said Sword/Shield Combo, and you're running Green Dragon blood/Spiked Armor (to get your armor up)/Talons/Reflective and so i assume you're last ability will be searing strike, or maybe invasion (since without a charge that'd be a pain)

That means you're relying totally on Bash for your damage... While going deep with Defense on the rest of your abilities?

i concur with this man..all DK's out there..run this setup

*grin*

cbbouletb16_ESO

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Just for Curiosity sake...With this 7 light armor build you're running, What you going to run for damage?

I see you said Sword/Shield Combo, and you're running Green Dragon blood/Spiked Armor (to get your armor up)/Talons/Reflective and so i assume you're last ability will be searing strike, or maybe invasion (since without a charge that'd be a pain)

That means you're relying totally on Bash for your damage... While going deep with Defense on the rest of your abilities?

i concur with this man..all DK's out there..run this setup

*grin*

Damage scales on max magicka, which you are maxed out on.
You don't need hard DPS abilities to kill people in this game. Everyone gets to have tons of damage because of how the game is designed, regardless of what setup you run.

Nobody except a Sorc can run from you either because of all your CC.
You don't have to 3-shot someone to easily kill them.

Standard of Might, Cinder Storm, Choking Talons are plenty of damage to kill pretty much anyone. You can shield bash in smaller engagements but you don't really have to. And anyone that tries to attack you takes damage as well.

Abilities are the largest source of tanking. Abilities are the largest source of damage.
So you maximize your ability resource, which for some reason also scales your damage (magicka) and you get tanking with damage at the same time.

You can say what you want but this is pretty much the best build in the game.

knaveofengland

nice reading but in time all the builds will be given loving care aka eso , so I think all the builds will have some loving care , so reap the rewards while you can , it wont last

Nox_Aeterna

Yeap , i do admit , it is hard to miss how absurd the unbalance on DK is.

I really wonder how the devs did not notice something like this.

Still , im giving the devs sometime to fix this and so many other problems , but honestly , if they dont show somthing soon , i will just quit.

cbbouletb16_ESO

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Yeap , i do admit , it is hard to miss how absurd the unbalance on DK is.

I really wonder how the devs did not notice something like this.

Still , im giving the devs sometime to fix this and so many other problems , but honestly , if they dont show somthing soon , i will just quit.

They noticed. They've been warned of the problems before the game was released.
They just haven't done anything about it in months. It's quite sad because some of the changes aren't even remotely difficult.

I have not yet renewed my subscription until I see the patch notes for Craglorn. (Not like I have anything to do right now. My gear is maxed out and PvP is a joke with Dragonknights and exploiters and unbalanced campaigns all over the place.) My time just ended tonight and I don't feel like wasting money on this game until something changes.

malais

So stay ranged? I'm not saying there are considerable issues with night blade and Templar dps (vet content) but this combo is easily countered. Same with bats warm spam. Stay at range.

If you don't have a ranged build for pvp you are doing it wrong.

Wifeaggro13

cbbouletb16_ESO wrote: »

Yes, Nightblades seem to need a bit of love, but they really need their passives to work properly more than anything. The magicka assassination build still works fantastic for PvP.


DK needs nerfs on almost every single ability.
(Spoiler: This is also a guide to beating every person and thing in the game)

Most notably: Dragon's Blood, Reflective Scale, Dark Talons, Standard of Might
And the passive Battle Roar.

These skills/passive in particular are what makes them so stupidly overpowered. Far beyond every other class.

Their costs are low and their effects are stronger than any other ability in the game.
Running 7 light armor with warlock set lets you spam these without much dent in your magicka at all.

Reflective Scale and Choking Talons alones makes you immune to both projectile and melee attacks without much cost, while also providing easy amounts of damage output to everyone.
Getting low? Green Dragon's Blood with some healing passives and sets will keep you immortal.
Getting into trouble? Just pop Standard of Might. You become near invincible with the most powerful ability in the game AND gain all your resources back. 35% damage reduction, +35% damage output, healing reduction, immobilize, ridiculous DPS. All this skill needs is the ability to summon Molag himself. Although it probably wouldn't make it that much better.

The only thing that comes close to countering you is Soul Strike and all you need to do is pop Dragon's Blood.


Dragonknights, enjoy this free guide on beating everyone and everything in the entire game.
Run Sword/Shield to combo with your increased block amount passive to take even less damage. Green's Dragon Blood will keep your stamina up. Run spiked armor for free armor cap. The last skill can be anything you want. Defensive Stance will decrease your block cost and CInder Storm will let you chase, kite, and dodge for days.




DIscuss your thoughts on Dragonknights and please rate the intelligence of the developer team. Or maybe they're just doing the "favorite of the month" approach and never plan on balancing the game at all.

Don't bother with "QQ" comments. I'm actually looking for a discussion.

I play a DK and i do agree there are some over powered abilities in Dk. Primarily standard. But talons is not one of them. If you stand back and look at this from a pure pve experience in VR its rather poor. It is high cost its over 400 points to cast. If your a heavy stam build running VR content as a tank you realy have only 3 casts per large trash pull .and it does not work on bosses.i dont really use it i use volcanic rune. As for green dragon blood it does not work if your already at soft cap your stam regen will not increase.blocking works as it should sns should be mitigating . But it should not be able to out dps ever other melee build with bashing the target while mitigating damage. What is wrong is people have figured out they can make a near invincible caster in pvp. As for cinderstorm it does not move with caster its a puddle if your standing in it move.
There are some short sighted concepts agreed. But your complaint is over a build that is exploiting some things in pvp. Dragon knight is meant to have high survivability. Just not ridiculously high dps while doing it. What half the problem is melee is so broken people are gravitating to magica builds for quick pvp builds unless you want to shield spam ,which is retardedly boring and broken. There are adjustments that need to be made . no one complains about double pet bolt escape though

Drachenfier

Shouldn't this be in the Alliance War section? This is clearly a pvp whine thread.

jimfopao2

Say what ?
I play a DK and it has some durability for sure but it has NO dps for everyday encounters. I see all other classes smashing groups of mobs in milliseconds while I have to stun each one to lock them down then chew through them one at a time AND keep others locked down while I take a painfully long time to do it.
When, and I stress WHEN, standard is up then you can hurt things but you need some work to earn it.
DK has not struck me as an OP class at all.
Stealth freaks one shotting ^bosses is OP. Mages splattering AoE endlessly is OP. Chugging painfully through content to earn some burst dps is not OP.

Therium104

cbbouletb16_ESO wrote: »

Yes, Nightblades seem to need a bit of love, but they really need their passives to work properly more than anything. The magicka assassination build still works fantastic for PvP.


DK needs nerfs on almost every single ability.
(Spoiler: This is also a guide to beating every person and thing in the game)

Most notably: Dragon's Blood, Reflective Scale, Dark Talons, Standard of Might
And the passive Battle Roar.

These skills/passive in particular are what makes them so stupidly overpowered. Far beyond every other class.

Their costs are low and their effects are stronger than any other ability in the game.
Running 7 light armor with warlock set lets you spam these without much dent in your magicka at all.

Reflective Scale and Choking Talons alones makes you immune to both projectile and melee attacks without much cost, while also providing easy amounts of damage output to everyone.
Getting low? Green Dragon's Blood with some healing passives and sets will keep you immortal.
Getting into trouble? Just pop Standard of Might. You become near invincible with the most powerful ability in the game AND gain all your resources back. 35% damage reduction, +35% damage output, healing reduction, immobilize, ridiculous DPS. All this skill needs is the ability to summon Molag himself. Although it probably wouldn't make it that much better.

The only thing that comes close to countering you is Soul Strike and all you need to do is pop Dragon's Blood.


Dragonknights, enjoy this free guide on beating everyone and everything in the entire game.
Run Sword/Shield to combo with your increased block amount passive to take even less damage. Green's Dragon Blood will keep your stamina up. Run spiked armor for free armor cap. The last skill can be anything you want. Defensive Stance will decrease your block cost and CInder Storm will let you chase, kite, and dodge for days.




DIscuss your thoughts on Dragonknights and please rate the intelligence of the developer team. Or maybe they're just doing the "favorite of the month" approach and never plan on balancing the game at all.

Don't bother with "QQ" comments. I'm actually looking for a discussion.

Seriously? The only thing up for discussion is your sanity. My god......

DK is fine. Sorc is fine. Templar is fine. NB is fine. Granted all abilities should be fixed to work as intended.

L2P. These threads are getting pathetic.

Wifeaggro13

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

cbbouletb16_ESO wrote: »

Yes, Nightblades seem to need a bit of love, but they really need their passives to work properly more than anything. The magicka assassination build still works fantastic for PvP.


DK needs nerfs on almost every single ability.
(Spoiler: This is also a guide to beating every person and thing in the game)

Most notably: Dragon's Blood, Reflective Scale, Dark Talons, Standard of Might
And the passive Battle Roar.

These skills/passive in particular are what makes them so stupidly overpowered. Far beyond every other class.

Their costs are low and their effects are stronger than any other ability in the game.
Running 7 light armor with warlock set lets you spam these without much dent in your magicka at all.

Reflective Scale and Choking Talons alones makes you immune to both projectile and melee attacks without much cost, while also providing easy amounts of damage output to everyone.
Getting low? Green Dragon's Blood with some healing passives and sets will keep you immortal.
Getting into trouble? Just pop Standard of Might. You become near invincible with the most powerful ability in the game AND gain all your resources back. 35% damage reduction, +35% damage output, healing reduction, immobilize, ridiculous DPS. All this skill needs is the ability to summon Molag himself. Although it probably wouldn't make it that much better.

The only thing that comes close to countering you is Soul Strike and all you need to do is pop Dragon's Blood.


Dragonknights, enjoy this free guide on beating everyone and everything in the entire game.
Run Sword/Shield to combo with your increased block amount passive to take even less damage. Green's Dragon Blood will keep your stamina up. Run spiked armor for free armor cap. The last skill can be anything you want. Defensive Stance will decrease your block cost and CInder Storm will let you chase, kite, and dodge for days.




DIscuss your thoughts on Dragonknights and please rate the intelligence of the developer team. Or maybe they're just doing the "favorite of the month" approach and never plan on balancing the game at all.

Don't bother with "QQ" comments. I'm actually looking for a discussion.

I play a DK and i do agree there are some over powered abilities in Dk. Primarily standard. But talons is not one of them. If you stand back and look at this from a pure pve experience in VR its rather poor. It is high cost its over 400 points to cast. If your a heavy stam build running VR content as a tank you realy have only 3 casts per large trash pull .and it does not work on bosses.i dont really use it i use volcanic rune. As for green dragon blood it does not work if your already at soft cap your stam regen will not increase.blocking works as it should sns should be mitigating . But it should not be able to out dps ever other melee build with bashing the target while mitigating damage. What is wrong is people have figured out they can make a near invincible caster in pvp. As for cinderstorm it does not move with caster its a puddle if your standing in it move.
There are some short sighted concepts agreed. But your complaint is over a build that is exploiting some things in pvp. Dragon knight is meant to have high survivability. Just not ridiculously high dps while doing it. What half the problem is melee is so broken people are gravitating to magica builds for quick pvp builds unless you want to shield spam ,which is retardedly boring and broken. There are adjustments that need to be made . no one complains about double pet bolt escape though. Clearly someone got owned multiple times in PVP . on the whole Dragon night is pretty balanced . some gear combos are over powered sure.

Kyotee0071

I heavily believe in ongoing balance in games. But I hate seeing classes being nerfed, and prefer the lacking classes to be "brought up to par". With that said, I can see the reasoning behind nerfs, as if they just keep increasing the powerlevel of classes to keep up with each other PVE would become a total joke.

Though I could personally care less for PVE, there are many folks that enjoy it and the game needs to remain balanced for both communities. PvP and PvE. It's a pretty fine line the devs have to walk.

Evergreen

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Yeap , i do admit , it is hard to miss how absurd the unbalance on DK is.

I really wonder how the devs did not notice something like this.

Still , im giving the devs sometime to fix this and so many other problems , but honestly , if they dont show somthing soon , i will just quit.

Do the devs really deserve all the heat? ESO could have had a really skewed testing community and many of the old beta testers could have given horrible feedback to the devs. Old vets carrying a lot of weight in the "inner circles" who are gifted in semantics and theory-crafting can unwittingly do a lot of damage to the credibility of the game.

I just don't think it is fair to put it all on the devs. What matters is how the devs move forward and listen to the community. An important missing step is opening the PTS server for all.

vicNBitis

Evergreen wrote: »

Do the devs really deserve all the heat?

After the vampire fiasco, yes, yes they do.

Surinen

balance is not possible. what will(if) happen will be a destruction of this class just to please those whos tears flow strong and decibels distort their waters. it is only my opinion, and humble too, instead of making 'the only overpowered, nerf it' it would be better to ask for a buff for other classes.

Fissh

DIscuss your thoughts on Dragonknights and please rate the intelligence of the developer team. Or maybe they're just doing the "favorite of the month" approach and never plan on balancing the game at all.

Don't bother with "QQ" comments. I'm actually looking for a discussion.[/quote]

LOL at this. You are insulting the Dev team about game balance 1 month or so into release. Then you ask for no QQ, when you in fact are QQ'ing...rudely.

Your approach could have had respect and constructive conversation all the way till your last two paragraphs, that's when self-entitlement whining shined.
Too bad for that

Baphomet

Having spent hours upon hours dueling with VR characters against VR characters on the PTS server before the game went live, I had no issue defeating the other classes no matter which class I used - dark talon using, standard dropping, shield bashing DKs included. Yup, playing as a sorcerer or templar (didn't have a VR nightblade), I was able to emerge victorious in most of my fights. Only logical deduction is that player skills and experience actually makes a massive difference. And also note that this game is extremely situational, so a fight you might win one time might result in defeat if just a few parameters are changed.

I do not want to simply claim that most people are just bad players, but when I see these types of posts over and over again, I can't help sigh and shake my head in the same parental manner I do when my kids are trying to eat yellow snow, thinking: "will they ever learn?". Experience goes such a looong way in this game, but it seems that many people are not even going to put some work into it; like if it's harder to do than the same repeditive rotations in a cool-down based game, it's not even worth trying - game must be broken!

Zenimax have a lot of opposition to deal with at the moment, but if there's one thing that ought to put a smile on their faces every morning, it must 90% of to so-called PvP experts who clutter these forums with their "expertise".

mikeleg34_ESO

No discussion from me, I'm just posting to say I like your sense of humor. It really came out in your writing.

"All this skill needs is the ability to summon Molag himself. Although it probably wouldn't make it that much better."

Awesome!

Mr_Luscan

And contrary to the opinions of the "90% of to so-called PvP experts" there are a lot of people who prefer PvE. I for one don't like PvP but that's a prejudice that has been with me since the early days of Ultima Online over 15 years ago.

I like to think that the Player is in control of how their (ESO) Life progresses. If they make bad (skill)choices, then they will need to learn to deal with those till they can be rectified. In some cases you might need to live with those choices for quite a few levels. The irritating part is listening(reading) to the whine from those suffering from those choices as if it was someone else's fault because "They" would never make a mistake.
I see people complaining about lag or about how their skills don't react as soon as they wish, but I really don't see that. Granted it might be because you're out on a field where the server is dealing with several hundred "Events" happening almost simultaneously, but even in the most action packed boss fight I don't see it. 3.07ghz Dual-Core I3 w/12g RAM and an NVidia GeForce 550, so you can see it's not a Super Gaming System. Maybe those extra few milliseconds are noticeable to you but....

Oh yes. I have a DK but only at Lvl 11 and she's struggling. Prolly suffering from those same bad decisions mentioned above.

As far as the Intelligence of the Dev team, if you're that good, why are you not applying to Zenimax? Did you not say some of the problems were Easy Fixes? Maybe they could use your Expertise! Or maybe, just Maybe, the Dev Team is working of fixing problems more important than an op class. As was mentioned above... They'll get around to it when it has the Priority Rating.

Lovin playing this game. I think that's the main thing. If you really don't like it, I'm sure a lot of folks will be just as happy to not hear any more from you, and there are lots of other games you could go play, and complain about. :] Enjoy

vicNBitis

Appeal to authority much? Geez.

You're really struggling at level 11 with a DK? How is that even possible? Aside from doing everything you could ever want talons is also a skill you get while tiny. Does only the 1 key work on your keyboard and you're using it for the shiny chains? If so, replace it with talons immediately.

No need to thank me.

xxMemphis

wow thanks for the perfect build.....I should never die again in PVP since this is OP....I also did not realize that Standard was able to be put down all the time...I thought they had to build up....**rolling a DK tonight!

Talmet

vicNBitis wrote: »

Appeal to authority much? Geez.

You're really struggling at level 11 with a DK? How is that even possible? Aside from doing everything you could ever want talons is also a skill you get while tiny. Does only the 1 key work on your keyboard and you're using it for the shiny chains? If so, replace it with talons immediately.

No need to thank me.

Or...maybe he didn't get talons, maybe he morphed talons to provide the snare instead of the dot? Maybe he's a stamina based character, so talons doesn't do that much damage.

Also...

cbbouletb16_ESO wrote: »

Most notably: Dragon's Blood, Reflective Scale, Dark Talons, Standard of Might
And the passive Battle Roar.

These skills/passive in particular are what makes them so stupidly overpowered. Far beyond every other class.

no, those are not the skills that make DK's do good damage....

molten whip: +spell power while using fire attacks while slotted
Engulfing flames: +% fire damage on any target hit
world in flames: +% fire damage with any fire AoE
dunmer or altmer racial passive: +% fire damage with any fire attack

+many really bad players paid to become vamps, but had/have no idea how to play as a vamp even before the nerf, which meant that they were easy to kill with fire....

those are why people think DK's are OP (with standard, which is perhaps the best ultimate). Dragon blood & reflective scale are nice...but if you see a DK run through a quest taking out groups faster than you can kill a single mob, or take out a group of players in just a few seconds...those skills & passives are what they are using. What you listed are just some defensive skills which are nice, but other classes have similar (though many of the NB's are bugged atm).

Also, I like how you picked DK...while if you look through just about any thread, or any video in youtube about how OP DKs are, somewhere someone will post "sorcs can do the same thing, just faster & with pressing fewer buttons"

vicNBitis

Talmet wrote: »

Or...maybe he didn't get talons, maybe he morphed talons to provide the snare instead of the dot? Maybe he's a stamina based character, so talons doesn't do that much damage.

Snare? OK, well, I can see you've obviously thought more about this than everyone else here....

Korah_Eaglecry

Just about everything you listed that is 'OP' you claimed costs little Magicka when in reality it costs atleast 400 Magicka per ability. Unless you dropped everything into Magicka, the best you can wish for is two consecutive uses of the ability before youre completely out of juice.