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Area-of-Effect Abilities - Maximum Target Cap Clarification
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Digerati✭✭✭✭
Milky is correct. Things like Pulsar and Bat swarm, etc, would be overpowered regardless of target limitations. Pulsar reduces total HP by 10% and stacks with other players' pulsars.. Simple fact is, pulsar is superior in a 1v1, 2v2, 6v6, 1v100 situation to just about any other non-ulti ability in the game. A cap won't fix it.1 -
Digerati✭✭✭✭
Milky is correct. Things like Pulsar and Bat swarm, etc, would be overpowered regardless of target limitations. Pulsar reduces total HP by 10% and stacks with other players' pulsars.. Simple fact is, pulsar is superior in a 1v1, 2v2, 6v6, 1v100 situation to just about any other non-ulti ability in the game. A cap won't fix it.
So, cap pulsar at 6-targets then 6v6... the group with 6 pulsar-spammers just reduced your entire group's max HP by 60% and smoked the rest of your HP with their first move. The AoE cap would not balance this ability.1 -
Digerati✭✭✭✭
Milky is correct. Things like Pulsar and Bat swarm, etc, would be overpowered regardless of target limitations. Pulsar reduces total HP by 10% and stacks with other players' pulsars.. Simple fact is, pulsar is superior in a 1v1, 2v2, 6v6, 1v100 situation to just about any other non-ulti ability in the game. A cap won't fix it.
So, cap pulsar at 6-targets then 6v6... the group with 6 pulsar-spammers just reduced your entire group's max HP by 60% and smoked the rest of your HP with their first move. The AoE cap would not balance this ability.
I wouldn't mind if AoE caps were enforced IF they actually resulted in a balance but they do not. The only difference an AoE cap makes is to the effectiveness of AoEs against a zerg or blob.1 -
Milky✭✭✭
Milky is correct. Things like Pulsar and Bat swarm, etc, would be overpowered regardless of target limitations. Pulsar reduces total HP by 10% and stacks with other players' pulsars.. Simple fact is, pulsar is superior in a 1v1, 2v2, 6v6, 1v100 situation to just about any other non-ulti ability in the game. A cap won't fix it.
Mine isn't at cap, but I believe it levels up to 13% max HP reduction at cap? Which is effectively 13% MAX HP TRUE DAMAGE if you kill the target within 30 seconds. True damage, I bet some people haven't heard that used in ESO yet yeah?
EDIT: Oh yeah, and that's just from the morph part of it, not including base damage and passive/staff modifiers.Edited by Milky on April 30, 2014 12:48AM2 -
Digerati✭✭✭✭
Milky is correct. Things like Pulsar and Bat swarm, etc, would be overpowered regardless of target limitations. Pulsar reduces total HP by 10% and stacks with other players' pulsars.. Simple fact is, pulsar is superior in a 1v1, 2v2, 6v6, 1v100 situation to just about any other non-ulti ability in the game. A cap won't fix it.
Mine isn't at cap, but I believe it levels up to 13% max HP reduction at cap? Which is effectively 13% MAX HP TRUE DAMAGE if you kill the target within 30 seconds. True damage, I bet some people haven't heard that used in ESO yet yeah?
EDIT: Oh yeah, and that's just from the morph part of it, not including base damage and passive/staff modifiers.
And that makes sense... the point is, of course, that an AoE cap would be totally ineffective at balancing this ability. Not that I don't think it's cool.. Perhaps if the true damage were toned down a little or if it had diminishing returns on the stack AND damage were based on how close you are to the center AND a short, interruptible cast time were added to the ability, it would be balanced...
Again, the point is, I don't see how an AoE cap even remotely affects the balance of this particular ability..
The balance for bat swarm may be benefitted a bit by the implementation of an AoE cap but I think it would be better balanced with a maximum rate of recovery (say, to a maximum of 10% HP/second) and a simple limitation on all ultimates: do not allow the generation of 'ultimate' while an ultimate ability is active and for a few seconds after an ultimate has completed, except where it is a core function of the ultimate, as is the case with meteor.. So, essentially, unless your ultimate ability says something like "grants an ultimate point for each enemy hit," you would always result in 0 ultimate after using your ultimate.
addendum: the problem with batswarm is not that it hits an unlimited amount of targets, it's that when you hit more than 4 targets with it, your rate of recovery far out-paces any DPS and it can generate ultimate, making it possible to have 100% uptime.
addendum to the addendum: maybe ZO is only threatening to break the game with AoE caps so that the community pools its intellect to come up with better solutions for the rampant imbalance?Edited by Digerati on April 30, 2014 1:25AM0 -
RaZaddha✭✭✭
Milky is correct. Things like Pulsar and Bat swarm, etc, would be overpowered regardless of target limitations. Pulsar reduces total HP by 10% and stacks with other players' pulsars.. Simple fact is, pulsar is superior in a 1v1, 2v2, 6v6, 1v100 situation to just about any other non-ulti ability in the game. A cap won't fix it.
Mine isn't at cap, but I believe it levels up to 13% max HP reduction at cap? Which is effectively 13% MAX HP TRUE DAMAGE if you kill the target within 30 seconds. True damage, I bet some people haven't heard that used in ESO yet yeah?
EDIT: Oh yeah, and that's just from the morph part of it, not including base damage and passive/staff modifiers.
And that makes sense... the point is, of course, that an AoE cap would be totally ineffective at balancing this ability. Not that I don't think it's cool.. Perhaps if the true damage were toned down a little or if it had diminishing returns on the stack AND damage were based on how close you are to the center AND a short, interruptible cast time were added to the ability, it would be balanced...
Again, the point is, I don't see how an AoE cap even remotely affects the balance of this particular ability..
The balance for bat swarm may be benefitted a bit by the implementation of an AoE cap but I think it would be better balanced with a maximum rate of recovery (say, to a maximum of 10% HP/second) and a simple limitation on all ultimates: do not allow the generation of 'ultimate' while an ultimate ability is active and for a few seconds after an ultimate has completed, except where it is a core function of the ultimate, as is the case with meteor.. So, essentially, unless your ultimate ability says something like "grants an ultimate point for each enemy hit," you would always result in 0 ultimate after using your ultimate.
addendum: the problem with batswarm is not that it hits an unlimited amount of targets, it's that when you hit more than 4 targets with it, your rate of recovery far out-paces any DPS and it can generate ultimate, making it possible to have 100% uptime.
addendum to the addendum: maybe ZO is only threatening to break the game with AoE caps so that the community pools its intellect to come up with better solutions for the rampant imbalance?
It's already broken, the 6 target AoE cap was already in place. Go vote.0 -
Smoop✭✭This is how you forum warriors show a company something is massively wrong with the changes proposed.
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edit: I will only resubscribe if these proposed changes are revoked before my 6 remaining days are over, at that time I will be buying and playing Archeage.Edited by Smoop on April 30, 2014 2:51AM4 -
Digerati✭✭✭✭This is how you forum warriors show a company something is massively wrong with the changes proposed.
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Many of us have unsubbed specifically due to this issue... However you want to spin the poll, it still represents $46,000+/month in revenue for Zenimax and they'd be pretty foolish to ignore it.1 -
Kingslayer✭✭✭
Milky is correct. Things like Pulsar and Bat swarm, etc, would be overpowered regardless of target limitations. Pulsar reduces total HP by 10% and stacks with other players' pulsars.. Simple fact is, pulsar is superior in a 1v1, 2v2, 6v6, 1v100 situation to just about any other non-ulti ability in the game. A cap won't fix it.
In testing pulsar didn't stack last i checked when did it change? Is their somewhere showing this tested? I wouldn't mind knowing this.
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Having played and enjoyed all the TES games I was really hoping ESO would not only have am enjoyable PvE component I was also hoping that AvA would not turn into just another version of WvW.
I Can't speak for everyone, only myself. Once I complete the PvE quest line I see no point in paying a monthly subscription fee for endgame AvA if it turns into a numbers game. It makes no sense when I can do that in a free to play game.
Will I cancel if this happens, YES. Will I renew, YES only for new PvE content and once completed then unsubscribe again until the next round of PvE. Basically ESO would become just another TES game.
Bethesda/ZOS, maybe you should had stuck with keeping TES singler player. Hang on, you can't even do that anymore without drama. Look at the whole Skyrim saga.
P.S. I expect a refund on all my AoE skill points I have spent so I can spend them on other skills. Its way more effective in AvA to just drop siege to do the AoE damage.1 -
Milky✭✭✭This is how you forum warriors show a company something is massively wrong with the changes proposed.
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Goodbye.
edit: I will only resubscribe if these proposed changes are revoked before my 6 remaining days are over, at that time I will be buying and playing Archeage.
ELDER SCROLLS ONLINE
Member Since February 25, 2014
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Will see how things go. Happy to resub if things move on the right path.
TES 0 -
trimsic_ESO✭✭✭✭✭PBAoE (Point Blank Area of Effect) damage without caps are currently imbalanced because there are no powerful and effective AoE CC in game, and no powerful and effective GTAoE (Ground Target Area of Effect) damage.
- It's currently way too easy to be immune to CC effects.
- AoE heal is not powerful enough to compensate the damage dealt by PBAoE spells.
This is limiting AvA strategy to:
- Zerging in a turtle scheme
- Dark talon, Pulsar, pulsar, pulsar, vampire bats, DK's standard
There is currently no way to counter such a strategy. In DAoC, if people were stacking and zerging, you could AoE mez / stun them at some distance. In ESO you can't.
Edited by trimsic_ESO on April 30, 2014 5:17AM0 -
fractalsteam wrote: »Having played and enjoyed all the TES games I was really hoping ESO would not only have am enjoyable PvE component I was also hoping that AvA would not turn into just another version of WvW.
I Can't speak for everyone, only myself. Once I complete the PvE quest line I see no point in paying a monthly subscription fee for endgame AvA if it turns into a numbers game. It makes no sense when I can do that in a free to play game.
Will I cancel if this happens, YES. Will I renew, YES only for new PvE content and once completed then unsubscribe again until the next round of PvE. Basically ESO would become just another TES game.
Bethesda/ZOS, maybe you should had stuck with keeping TES singler player. Hang on, you can't even do that anymore without drama. Look at the whole Skyrim saga.
P.S. I expect a refund on all my AoE skill points I have spent so I can spend them on other skills. Its way more effective in AvA to just drop siege to do the AoE damage.
Same, but I wont Re Sub till they fix the class bugs. So tired of seeing non esential stuff getting fixed over passives and skill bugs.0 -
I liked elder scrolls enough to actually buy a retail imperial edition. Guess I'll still have a nice statue sitting on my shelf after 3 days.
Elder Scrolls Online
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You have 3 days of game time remaining.Edited by BringWind_ESO on April 30, 2014 5:56AM0 -
RivenEsq✭✭✭✭Elder Scrolls Online
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Your move, Zenimax. Convince me and everyone else that has cancelled to come back. Deliver on your promise. Make this the true spiritual successor to DAoC. It has the potential, but you are throwing that away.0 -
KerinKor✭✭✭✭✭
✭Elder Scrolls Online
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The world doesn't need a successor to DAoC, I'm fine with ESO as it will be once the bugs and bots are squashed.0 -
Larira✭✭✭✭
Try this with AoE abilities and you will fail because you will run out of ressources. AoE abilities have a very bad ressources-damage done-ratio. Abilities like Feeding, Elemental Ring are useless against a 50 player-zerg.@Larira
Nah. I've personally successfully fought 4 v 1 and 6 v1.
6v1 was on a keep wall while defending. I sneaked up on a guy, feed on him, knocked him down. His 5 buddies jump on me so I kited them around using Elemental Ring and Critical Surge, slowly whittiling them down while keeping myself up. A weapon swap for a few Mages Fury's and it was done.
Greetings
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Is Siege capped in Gw2?
And to all that want no cap: Didn't we all play quite nicely in PVP without huge zergs, mainly because of the wider terrain and some other features.
You really think this changes now that all of a sudden all know that you only hit 6 with your nova?
Didn't small groups work quite fine?
So lets all put down our pitchforks and torches. No one seemed to notice or care before and they were already in place, so why would you notice now?
There are currently NO caps on aoe, in pvp or otherwise. Jessica is misinformed. How do I know? I have a veteran aoe specced dragonknight. Unless I'm fighting a boss, all I run are AOE spells. I can hit everything that is within my range.
@ZOS_JessicaFolsom Please edit the post above. AOE's currently do not have a target cap.2 -
Lava_Croft wrote: »
I agree with AoE caps because a group of 8 people should not be able to run into a group of 40 people, spam AoE and kill them all.prana33b14_ESO wrote: »Now, are you going to keep trolling or state why you disagree with removing the caps? Disagreeing because people didn't know SOME were already capped is a pretty lol argument.
I really want to say what I really think here, but let me stick to something constructive. Everything has to have a counter. The counter for the zerg is AOE. The counter for aoe is moving out of the casters range. Without AOE, whoever has the most people will win. This is not a game of democracy, it's a game of strategy and tactics.
If you are going to stand in the fire, you deserve to get nuked. Plain and simple.0 -
I think all AOE skills should be in PVP reduced damage for 70% and Snaring,stuning etc AOE should be removed this fix everything AOE spam is always bad idea and ruin whole PVP fun and to fix everything in PP n teso Zeni need to give hardcore PVP players Smaller scale PVP zone,and come on.. Duels ? where ? why ? Rly worst idea don't give Players test spec on 1v1 ...
Can you please fix this post? It's almost completely unintelligible. I have no idea what you are saying here.0 -
Tankqull✭✭✭✭✭
✭my main problem currently is, that ZOS is activly trying to fool us - they dodged every prerelease question regarding aes. and again tryed to dodge problems by stating that change in a small footnote...when they used the tooltips to send us into the completly wrong directions
the underlined part is on the PTS no longer true on top of that
so what is the point in spending money to a company that is actively hoseing its customers?Edited by Tankqull on April 30, 2014 9:00AMspelling and grammar errors are free to be abused
Sallington wrote: »Anything useful that players are wanting added into the game all fall under the category of "Yer ruinin my 'mersion!"0 -
TheBonesXXX✭✭✭✭✭
✭Well Zenimax, looks like you're beginning to prove everyone said this game was doomed from the start right. Even though you have an opportunity to make the best game to hang around for a long time. AoE limitations do not exist in physics so why the heck would you even deviate from that?
You will lose respect from the old school, the group of players that you really do need to appease. Why an AoE isn't strongest in the center of it's point of origin rather than the outskirts baffles me. This would be the smartest direction to take it. Layered AoE is one of the best strategies in any PvP as a form of moving opposing forces anyways.
Jessica & Co, with all do respect, the numbers and Cyrodiil experience suggests otherwise. Saying there is a cap when there was empirical evidence that there was no such thing is ignorance or a lie. There's now empirical evidence on the PTS via player videos that AoE caps will destroy Cyrodiil and your subscriptions will plummet. Furthermore, it's save to say that the developers know what the appropriate steps to creating a meaningful environment would be to analyze specific coding within each individual skill on all of the skill lines. After all, that's what my fifteen bucks a month means, content and continual maintenance on the bases that someone intelligent is making this happen.
Appeasing the player-base that are inferior in cunning and tactics is not a smart decision. Zerg busting makes players think on their toes and those who are not capable of doing so should die, pull their hair out, or rage quit. Preferably the third option because they have been the cancer in the gaming community for years. I was okay with the Imperial Edition and the Cross Faction playing, this however is the line you choose to draw in the sand.
AoE spells/abilities in a game are the equivalent to a Grenade, a Missile, or Bomb. It hits a specific point; it's deadliest at point of impact and becomes lesser outward. This should be your design, because it makes sense.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hyK9tLzG5o
This is empirical evidence that if you put a cap in AoE, your whole design will work against itself and everything you have stated and/or hoped to achieve with small and large groups being significant becomes a lie. I do not care how anyone spins it, it is what it is. I have stated it plenty of times in my post, because I want to iterate the importance of a limitless AoE capability.
Blaming AoE for the death of 50 is a lie, it's not the AoE that killed people. It's the people who decided that standing in the fire and die fault for standing in the fire. The fire may have been the damage, but it was the erroneous mistake by the player who decided to dance in it that ultimately lead to their own demise.
In real life, 4 people can kill 50 people, it's called superior cunning, tactics, weaponry, and training. They're called special forces and they can ***-***-up. Things that explode with everything around them generally instantly kill anyone within the closest proximity and severely wound people not directly in what's called the "Kill Zone", become permanently disfigured or maimed. In the case of PvP, they will have a large portion of their HP taken away but ultimately may be able to survive the encounter.
I'm not a genius, but I'd say your safest option would be to take the time and assess all of the skills and passives, make sure they work and tweak as necessary with extensive testing.
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caveman42ub17_ESO wrote: »Is Siege capped in Gw2?
And to all that want no cap: Didn't we all play quite nicely in PVP without huge zergs, mainly because of the wider terrain and some other features.
You really think this changes now that all of a sudden all know that you only hit 6 with your nova?
Didn't small groups work quite fine?
So lets all put down our pitchforks and torches. No one seemed to notice or care before and they were already in place, so why would you notice now?
There are currently NO caps on aoe, in pvp or otherwise. Jessica is misinformed. How do I know? I have a veteran aoe specced dragonknight. Unless I'm fighting a boss, all I run are AOE spells. I can hit everything that is within my range.
@ZOS_JessicaFolsom Please edit the post above. AOE's currently do not have a target cap.
Unfortunately you are partialy mistaking. They have been sneaking in caps for few skills at the times with every patch and when players started to notice they had to make an official anouncement.
From my limited beta test i know that for example healing springs from resto staff did not have any cap (and now it has), the DK banner did not have a cap (and stil doesnt) and DK fiery breath did not have any cap (and not sure if it has one now).
Oposite to this, encase from sorc tree was capped at 6 ever since early access.
I am sure that if the people who got to play in the PTS check their footage they might find some skills that i didnt get to test, that didnt have a cap and now they do.
As far as i can see all the decisions ZOS made so far were aimed at saving money and they did not cut corners simply to frustrate the eso players..its their business model and they stick to it. Unfortunately with every bad decision they are loosing a small portion of their subscribers and on the long run it will more then likely backfire.
I can also understand how the changes in this thread will lower the net trafic and improve the performance ..some..but there is no excuse for cutting corners to the extent of ruining the only pvp instance curently avaible to the pvp crowd. ZOS olready pushed our patience to the limit by forcing the grind of ALL the pve content in order to be competitive in pvp...only to find out Cyrodiil's future is grimm.
I for one will not stick around if ESO continues down this path.
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TheBonesXXX✭✭✭✭✭
✭popatiberiuoneb18_ESO wrote: »caveman42ub17_ESO wrote: »Is Siege capped in Gw2?
And to all that want no cap: Didn't we all play quite nicely in PVP without huge zergs, mainly because of the wider terrain and some other features.
You really think this changes now that all of a sudden all know that you only hit 6 with your nova?
Didn't small groups work quite fine?
So lets all put down our pitchforks and torches. No one seemed to notice or care before and they were already in place, so why would you notice now?
There are currently NO caps on aoe, in pvp or otherwise. Jessica is misinformed. How do I know? I have a veteran aoe specced dragonknight. Unless I'm fighting a boss, all I run are AOE spells. I can hit everything that is within my range.
@ZOS_JessicaFolsom Please edit the post above. AOE's currently do not have a target cap.
Unfortunately you are partialy mistaking. They have been sneaking in caps for few skills at the times with every patch and when players started to notice they had to make an official anouncement.
From my limited beta test i know that for example healing springs from resto staff did not have any cap (and now it has), the DK banner did not have a cap (and stil doesnt) and DK fiery breath did not have any cap (and not sure if it has one now).
Oposite to this, encase from sorc tree was capped at 6 ever since early access.
I am sure that if the people who got to play in the PTS check their footage they might find some skills that i didnt get to test, that didnt have a cap and now they do.
As far as i can see all the decisions ZOS made so far were aimed at saving money and they did not cut corners simply to frustrate the eso players..its their business model and they stick to it. Unfortunately with every bad decision they are loosing a small portion of their subscribers and on the long run it will more then likely backfire.
I can also understand how the changes in this thread will lower the net trafic and improve the performance ..some..but there is no excuse for cutting corners to the extent of ruining the only pvp instance curently avaible to the pvp crowd. ZOS olready pushed our patience to the limit by forcing the grind of ALL the pve content in order to be competitive in pvp...only to find out Cyrodiil's future is grimm.
I for one will not stick around if ESO continues down this path.
If that's their cause of performance then their whole Coding and IT department should be fired. Go back to old school, if they need to fart pink polka dotted ponies then they better figure out how to make it happen .1 -
Lava_Croft wrote: »I agree with AoE caps because a group of 8 people should not be able to run into a group of 40 people, spam AoE and kill them all.
If the 40 stand still and do not spread out - that's exactly what should happen.
If a game mechanic prevents them from spreading out (e.g. some kind of too long AoE stun that doesn't brake on damage), then this needs to be addressed.
Maybe "spamming AoE" should not be possible while moving? I am actually against any casting while moving, but that's something different.
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Diamond_10✭✭✭Limitless AOE only works when there is a hard interrupt such as in DAOC.
In a game like this with no interrupt, limitless AOE is just a mess as it currently is.
Im all for the change0 -
And since I see comments about DAoC, it was bad there as well. AOE mezz anyone? Uncapped AOE is a bad idea unless it has serious drawbacks.
What? Mezz in DAoC breakes on damage, can be cured by other players, can be purged by yourself, there are items with mezz deflection and some classes have abilities to grant short time CC immunity for the whole group. There are resistances that reduce the mezz duration. Some classes are harder to CC. For the powerful long range mezzes you need to stand still, if you want want to cast uninterrupted, then you sacrifice duration.
These are balanced drawbacks. It took time to balance it, once upon a time you would stand still for a minute, but late game DAoC has one of the best CC systems ever to be implemented, it is a game of positioning and reaction. In today's DAoC if 100 people are stuck to 1 guy and all get mezzed, then stunned and snared and PBAoE'd to death - it is their problem.
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ARtChi✭✭✭
I'm sorry to say that but this is a lie and you know it... very disapointing from ZOS...ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »All AoE effect abilities in ESO have a max target limit of six, and always have
I really hate liars, this and the fake latency post for european servers are really making me reconsider my subscription...1 -
TheBonesXXX✭✭✭✭✭
✭Diamond_10 wrote: »Limitless AOE only works when there is a hard interrupt such as in DAOC.
In a game like this with no interrupt, limitless AOE is just a mess as it currently is.
Im all for the change
Just not creative enough to stop the AoE Boom builds from working.
Snipe morphed into Lethal Arrow follow by a metric ton of single target DPS delivered by a proper spec can end almost any AoE build in Cyrodiil and that's a fact.
It's a matter of having two or three people being specialized to take down a plethora of AoE builds.
For instance, two people spec'd Fighters guild, one Night Blade and one Templar has enough burst potential to take out any Vamp AoE build before it even has the chance to breathe.
If there is anything to take away from this post and to even think about an AoE cap is to realize that everything has a check and balance in this game if you have people in your groups clever enough to pull it off.
AoE nuking zergs are only nuking the people who are zerging, so why even cry if a zerg gets knocked down.
AoE nukes will not work on a cohesive player unit, that's the fact.
Really this cap thing is more ridiculous the more I think about it and just attributes to poor player performance to even think about it.0
