Area-of-Effect Abilities - Maximum Target Cap Clarification

Xsorus

RivenEsq

Catches_the_Sun wrote: »

So only 5 abilities, which were bugged and therefore not hitting the limit, are being adjusted...and we're crying foul, saying the sky is falling. I don't see this having much of an impact.

You're trivializing the problem as only "a couple abilities out of dozens in the game" trying to make it sound like only 5 abilities being adjusted makes no difference. What you are ignoring is the anti-stack playstyle that was enforced JUST BY USING THOSE 5 ABILITIES. Those abilities are all popular and commonly used. Those abilities singlehandedly have been preventing players from stacking/turtling because they would manhandle them if they did. Now, with those abilities capped, there is nothing keeping stacking/turtling in check. Open your eyes.

Draconiuos

The fact is they are fixing a bug and you can't say you didn't know there was an AOE cap. Just about every other AOE had a cap without saying it in the tool tip, but those 5 seemed to be an exception without saying so in the tool tip. So, either the tool tip was bugged or the ability was. The fact that so many people noticed this, but didn't say anything to the effect one way or the other meant they had some idea there was a bug. Instead of just crying about them fixing it why not offer a suggestion that will be helpful.

prana33b14_ESO

Draconiuos wrote: »

Instead of just crying about them fixing it why not offer a suggestion that will be helpful.

Remove the AOE caps. That is the solution. While we're playing the "why not provide insight" game. Will you answer the question myself and other concerned people have asked multiple times and NOT ONE PERSON HAS ANSWERED? I bet if you can explain it people would not mind the aoe caps as much.

Draconiuos wrote: »

Focus fire kills people a lot quicker than aoes ever will.

Yet we have a page full of whiners in the Cyrodiil section complaining about aoe. Anyway, explain how you are focus firing in the following situation please and how you plan on doing so once people start piling together even more.

One or two healers are hiding behind the zerg. You can't target them if your reticule can't hit them afaik right? There are no nameplates. How are you relaying who to kill to your teammates? How are they finding the person you are talking about quickly without nameplates? Once the zerg ball of gW2 forms how are you going to target them with even more people in front of them?

prana33b14_ESO

Cuddler wrote: »

I've had no problems identifying and targeting squishies in an enemy zerg. If you do, maybe you just need to L2P instead of looking for an easy 1-button solution?

Cuddler wrote: »

I said Cyrodiil is huge, and I have no trouble avoiding the zerg and finding small fights, yet called a zergling in response.

LOL Cuddler

Draconiuos

prana33b14_ESO wrote: »

.


One or two healers are hiding behind the zerg. You can't target them if your reticule can't hit them afaik right? There are no nameplates. How are you relaying who to kill to your teammates? How are they finding the person you are talking about quickly without nameplates? Once the zerg ball of gW2 forms how are you going to target them with even more people in front of them?

If your group can't kill people with focus fire through the limited healing of 1-2 people you need better coordination. The fact is even the AOE heals have a cap of 6 people and therefore 1-2 healers is not going to keep a zerg up against focus fire since even they are trying to deal with the fact they need los through the mass of bodies to heal one person. If said person is being burned down by 10+ the 1-2 healers will never be able to heal them fast enough to stop it. Add on top of that you can have 1-2 people set up siege behind you and spam the zerg with unlimited aoe damage and now your 1-2 healers look very useless.

prana33b14_ESO

If they are a bigger group you will be run over before you focus fire enough of them to make a dent lol. Oh you killed one guy? They ran over your entire group in a blob train in the meantime lol. Then they mopped up the mopes setting up siege in an open battle fight. Healers need to die first and I specifically asked how you are targeting key people hiding behind the zerg when they start grouping up and this is not an answer.

Xaei

The bottom line is really do you want ESO AvA to turn into GW2 WvW.

I can tell you that arrow carts in GW2 is more powerful than any siege in this game in taking down zergs: its precise (ground targeted) and its fast (almost no lag between firing and hitting), and yet WvW is still a zergfest. Siege will no solve the problem.

Draconiuos

prana33b14_ESO wrote: »

If they are a bigger group you will be run over before you focus fire enough of them to make a dent lol. Oh you killed one guy? They ran over your entire group in a blob train in the meantime lol. Then they mopped up the mopes setting up siege in an open battle fight. Healers need to die first and I specifically asked how you are targeting key people hiding behind the zerg when they start grouping up and this is not an answer.

Meh, no matter what anyone says you are going to say they didn't answer your scenario. I gave you a perfectly good answer to it, but you are just dismiss it. Never once in your scenario did you mention your side being outnumbered 3+ to 1, because even with no aoe cap you would still get killed before doing much damage. Also, what does target individuals in a group have to do with AOE cap?

prana33b14_ESO

LOL. We've been saying that the addition of caps will cause groups to clump together to mitigate the aoe while hiding their healers because you can't target them if you can't get a reticule on them and random aoe hits is not going to kill them. We've asked how you plan on killing the healers that are not targetable without aoe (focus firing them) for awhile now and Cuddler swung and missed. Now, your answer basically is "focus fire the overextenders." Well no *** but we're talking about groups that are literally 50 deep piled on the commander and how to kill the healers stacked in there.

The whole premise of these arguments is giving small groups a chance vs. big groups so I have no idea how or why you possibly could have thought we weren't talking about outnumbered groups. Did you read the thread at all? Is your reading comprehension level that of Cuddler's?

I mean jfc, if you don't have any idea the conversation going on please don't even answer.

Draconiuos

prana33b14_ESO wrote: »

LOL. We've been saying that the addition of caps will cause groups to clump together to mitigate the aoe while hiding their healers because you can't target them if you can't get a reticule on them. We've asked how you plan on killing the healers that are not targetable without aoe (focus firing them) for awhile now and Cuddler swung and missed. Now, your answer basically is "focus fire the overextenders." Well no *** but we're talking about groups that are literally 50 deep piled on the commander and how to kill the healers stacked in there.

The whole premise of these arguments is giving small groups a chance vs. big groups so I have no idea how or why you possibly could have thought we weren't talking about outnumbered groups. Did you read the thread at all? Is your reading comprehension level that of Cuddler's?

I mean jfc, if you don't have any idea the conversation going on please don't even answer.

You were the one that said if the group was bigger that my tactic wouldn't work. Which means you changed the scenario to one were you are outnumbered. Perhaps you should learn to read what you write before replying and making yourself look silly.

prana33b14_ESO

We've been talking about smaller group vs. a larger group and the ability for smaller groups to defeat larger groups so it isn't a numbers based pvp game THIS WHOLE THREAD and nowhere mentioned groups of equal size, so yes your tactic wouldn't work and was not relevant. Pay attention ffs. Bonus points for quoting where I said anything about equal sized groups.

Draconiuos

prana33b14_ESO wrote: »

We've been talking about smaller group vs. a larger group and the ability for smaller groups to defeat larger groups so it isn't a numbers based pvp game THIS WHOLE THREAD and nowhere mentioned groups of equal size, so yes your tactic wouldn't work and was not relevant. Pay attention ffs.

Lol, I you are the one saying no one said anything about being outnumbered. The very definition of being outnumbered is to have a smaller group than the group you are facing. I admitted that my tactics would not work against 3+v1 odds, but you never gave specific odds to use. Perhaps you should pay attention and learn some reading comprehension.

prana33b14_ESO

/facepalm

Perhaps you should read the *** thread. Never was there any discussion about how equal group fights would end up. The premise of THIS WHOLE *** THREAD is about giving small groups a chance vs. big groups and how it will ruin pvp if small groups aren't able to have a chance vs. big groups. I'm sorry I didn't specifically mention it in my questions since you know the WHOLE THREAD IS ABOUT SMALL GROUP VS LARGE GROUP PVP.

Regardless, your focus fire the tanks standing on the edges idea is moronic anyway and you obviously don't have a clue how to focus fire healers hiding inside a zerg.

FearlessOne_2014

I'm going to play devil's advocate and say that this game is not for the pvp but for the lore and pve, that is the only thing I can think of that will make the AoE Cap make more sense. To be very honest I was hoping for a different type of MMO style from the norm, but that doesn't seem to be the case here. If ESO keep making changes like this then they will lose most of there player base to the next MMO that comes out. I hope this game changes for the future but until then other then the lore this game, it's just another MMO with a different skill system where cookie cutter builds and zerging will be the answer to everything. I just hope this isn't how The Elder Scrolls series will end. Maybe another single player game where the graphics are amazing and you have absolute freedom from cookie cutter builds. One could only wish.

Draconiuos

prana33b14_ESO wrote: »

/facepalm

Perhaps you should read the *** thread. Never was there any discussion about how equal group fights would end up. The premise of THIS WHOLE *** THREAD is about giving small groups a chance vs. big groups and how it will ruin pvp if small groups aren't able to have a chance vs. big groups. I'm sorry I didn't specifically mention it in my questions since you know the WHOLE THREAD IS ABOUT SMALL GROUP VS LARGE GROUP PVP.

Regardless, your focus fire the tanks standing on the edges idea is moronic anyway and you obviously don't have a clue how to focus fire healers hiding inside a zerg.

I never said anything about focus firing tanks. I never even said who to focus fire. And once again you have proven your reading comprehension is elementary school level. You are going to say anyone that doesn't agree with you is wrong and stupid. Thank you for proven you have nothing helpful to add to this discussion.

Oblongship

ChairGraveyard wrote: »

AoE Caps Enable Cheating Like This:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=0hyK9tLzG5o

Get rid of AoE caps! Don't allow cheating!

Not really sure how that is cheating...

prana33b14_ESO

LOL. This is why we can't have nice things. I'm not saying people taht don't agree with me are wrong and stupid. I'm saying that if you have no idea what the discussion is about and are chiming in still as if you do and therefore are wrong and stupid.

Draconious has a 1st grade reading comprehension and after 13 pages he still didn't know we were talking about small group vs. large group pvp. Durrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. Now that you are caught up and know we are talking about small vs. large group pvp do you have answers? Focus fire the guy on the outside while we get ran the *** over durrrrrr.

Draconiuos

prana33b14_ESO wrote: »

LOL. This is why we can't have nice things. I'm not saying people taht don't agree with me are wrong and stupid. I'm saying that if you have no idea what the discussion is about and are chiming in still as if you do and therefore are wrong and stupid.

Draconious has a 1st grade reading comprehension and after 13 pages he still didn't know we were talking about small group vs. large group pvp. Durrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. Now that you are caught up and know we are talking about small vs. large group pvp do you have answers? Focus fire the guy on the outside while we get ran the *** over durrrrrr.

Lol, I love it when people are so lost for words they have to steal your insult to them to try and insult you. Good try but come back when you have something original.

prana33b14_ESO

I mean, here's the convo cliffs;

Others: AOE Caps will ruin pvp by making it numbers based and small groups won't have a chance against bigger groups. Please lift the cap Zenimax.
Cuddler: Just focus fire, I have no problem focus firing squishies IN zergs in my smaller group. l2play noob.
Me: Can anyone answer these questions that have been asked before then about this
Draconious: Focus fire is faster than aoe anyway
Me: Can you answer these questions we've asked then about focus firing the people hiding in the middle of the zerg that can't be targeted?
Draconious: Focus fire the people on the outside
Me: Well that won't work because you will get run over by a bigger group doing that and it's not what I asked anyway
Draconious: YOU CHANGED THE SUBJECT. I thought equal groups durrrrr. You read at elementary level.
Me: /facepalm

Digerati

AoE cap+ smart heals = zergs rule.

Will PvP still be an incredible draw for this game? Yes. Will it ever reach its potential? NO.

prana33b14_ESO

Oblongship wrote: »

Not really sure how that is cheating...

It's not legitimate cheating but it's mitigating the aoe so that it hits 6 people one time and a different 6 the next time because there are more than 6 in the aoe circle. If there are 40 people in the circle it might hit a different 6 people each aoe and nobody goes below half health. Smaller groups won't be able to kill anyone before dying as this doesn't allow them to unload damage on the same person throughout their rotation and doesn't pressure the healers as it normally would when people actually come close to dying.

It's an exploit maybe, but more important, it is SUPER BORING.

ChairGraveyard

Oblongship wrote: »

ChairGraveyard wrote: »

AoE Caps Enable Cheating Like This:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=0hyK9tLzG5o

Get rid of AoE caps! Don't allow cheating!

Not really sure how that is cheating...

Let me make it clear then:

Abusing game mechanics to give yourself unintended advantages is known as exploiting.

Unless becoming immune to AoE is an intended feature of the AoE cap, abusing the cap in order to make your group immune to AoE is exploiting.

RivenEsq

@Draconiuos His question has always been, "how do you focus fire the healers in the stack?"

Your answer is insufficient, with or without equal numbers. If you have the same amount of people, how are you going to focus fire healers? That's right, YOU CAN'T. Additionally, if you cannot devise a tactic that can enable a smaller group to outplay a larger group in the open field with an AoE cap enabled, then you really have not brought any solution to the table and have completely missed the point of this entire debate. Thank you for proving a point though that, without a way to effectively focus fire ANY target of value (because they are behind a tanky front line), that this is purely a numbers game. The only way to beat a stack in the open field is with an equal or larger stack of your own. Period.

And, no, siege doesn't work to counter anything. It fires slow, has placement limitations, and will be rushed the second it is placed. If you have any questions, I refer you to @Pryda 's video

prana33b14_ESO

Draconiuos wrote: »

Lol, I love it when people are so lost for words they have to steal your insult to them to try and insult you. Good try but come back when you have something original.

Says the guy who didn't know that the only reason we were talking aoe caps is because of how small vs. large group pvp will play out 13 pages into the thread. Try contributing once you figure out what we are talking about.

Draconiuos

RivenVII wrote: »

@Draconiuos His question has always been, "how do you focus fire the healers in the stack?"

Your answer is insufficient, with or without equal numbers. If you have the same amount of people, how are you going to focus fire healers? That's right, YOU CAN'T. Additionally, if you cannot devise a tactic that can enable a smaller group to outplay a larger group in the open field with an AoE cap enabled, then you really have not brought any solution to the table and have completely missed the point of this entire debate. Thank you for proving a point though that, without a way to effectively focus fire ANY target of value (because they are behind a tanky front line), that this is purely a numbers game. The only way to beat a stack in the open field is with an equal or larger stack of your own. Period.

And, no, siege doesn't work to counter anything. It fires slow, has placement limitations, and will be rushed the second it is placed. If you have any questions, I refer you to @Pryda 's video

You are right I brought a tactic that makes the healers useless. Also, if you read the entire thread I did offer a solution that would allow both capped aoes and uncapped aoes. The fact it was ignored shows me most here don't won't any compromise. The game has had the AOE cap since launch and it didn't matter until it was pointed out and they said they were fixing abilities that were wrongfully breaking the cap.

prana33b14_ESO

IIRC his other solution was let people choose whether their skills hit unlimited or limited targets on their own. Mkay. I'd do that I guess.

Draconiuos

prana33b14_ESO wrote: »

IIRC his other solution was let people choose whether their skills hit unlimited or limited targets on their own. Mkay. I'd do that I guess.

See you didn't read it. Once again making an ass of yourself.
I mention a mechanic were you can choice to keep you Aoe capped and it would have static stats, or you can choice to have it uncapped, but for every target over cap it would cost more resource and reduce any recovery effects that are gained. That way you could have unlimited aoe damage, but it would start costing you massive amounts of resource against large groups.

prana33b14_ESO

I said IIRC (IF i recall CORRECTLY), meaning I wasn't 100% sure. Words have meanings.

But let's go to the tape and see what you said in the very previous post to the one I'm making now:

a mechanic were you can choice to keep you Aoe capped and it would have static stats, or you can choice to have it uncapped

Holy ***! Disregarding the horrible grammar (choice instead of choose?!) that sure sounds like a player can choose whether it is capped or not. Thx for clarifying. I wasn't going to reread this thread. It's AIDS.

lol

Gravord

Any special reason why Bat Swarm - most *** overpowered ability ever seen in pvp system aint getting nerf?