Area-of-Effect Abilities - Maximum Target Cap Clarification

frwinters_ESO

This is what I'm not getting. The developer basically said there was ALWAYS a cap of 6 unless the ability said otherwise and the PvP specific abilities. The bug here is that a few abilities, the 5 they are changing and they are reviewing a few others, were not working as intended. So 5 abilities change...not a big deal! Its not a game breaker and all I am seeing is posts on how this cap may ruin the game. The proper responses to this thread should have been this:

"Thank you for the clarification, great game! Keep up the good work!"

That's it. NEXT TOPIC PLEASE!

Hamfast

Personally, I don't like PvP, 1 on 1, AvA, what ever... that being said, AoE should be AoE, if you are in the area, you are affected... the skill part of the game is getting out of the Area of the AoE attack, if you fail to get out, you get hit... each and every player (individual) has a chance to develop their skills, both play and game skills, to help absorb the damage, interrupt the attack or get out of the area so the AOE attacks have less effect... again, failure to do this means you get damage or perhaps die... what's the big deal?

prana33b14_ESO

WOW. Crickets from Cuddler and the rest of the peanut gallery on this question. Not surprised.

prana33b14_ESO wrote: »

Cuddler wrote: »

valkaneer2b14_ESO wrote: »

I want to see these AoE cap fanboys work with there raid to single target focus and burn healer after healer down *in a stacked zerg*. They can't cuz there is no /target function, so it becomes Zerg vs Zerg.

I've had no problems identifying and targeting squishies in an enemy zerg. If you do, maybe you just need to L2P instead of looking for an easy 1-button solution?

While finding squishies to kill isn't really what he asked, maybe then you can answer the question everyone has been asking. I haven't pvp'd much in this game yet because of work priorities but humor me anyway.

One or two healers are hiding behind the zerg. You can't target them if your reticule can't hit them afaik right? There are no nameplates. How are you relaying who to kill to your teammates? How are they finding the person you are talking about quickly without nameplates? Once the zerg ball of gW2 forms how are you going to target them with even more people in front of them?

Can someone answer this that is for the caps? I would really like a dev to comment on this before the subscription renewal kicks in.

Aoife32001

While I'm not necessarily against a cap, I am worried about it creating the "zerg blob" that many saw in GW2. I am equally against, though, a single vampire or 2 DKs taking out 20 players. I would like to see some sort of balance, if possible, that could avoid or minimize either outcome.

lajnus86b16_ESO

So you decide to give some time to fix the pvp, but what about all the weaponlines and skill lines that are obviously broken? Where was the beta testing? when you hit vr you notice even further this game was a rushed product or just lousy beta testers.

Xaei

Aoife32001 wrote: »

While I'm not necessarily against a cap, I am worried about it creating the "zerg blob" that many saw in GW2. I am equally against, though, a single vampire or 2 DKs taking out 20 players. I would like to see some sort of balance, if possible, that could avoid or minimize either outcome.

Vampires are amazingly broken at the moment yes, but even with dark talon + standard as powerful as it is at the moment, if 20 players got wrecked by 2 DKs, it basically means they have no idea what they're doing and following the blob like sheep, and this it's appropriate (and somewhat poetic) that sheep would be slaughtered by dragons.

Trayyacakes

Some abilities need to be balanced. AOE damage does not need to be capped ever. If 2 DK's wreck your group of 20 it is a L2P issue. If it is a group of pugs... They should try to learn from it not cry about an AOE cap. If it is a guild group, I suggest you have a seminar on dodge rolls, focus targets, and not standing in fire. The vampire issue has to do with the ultimate cost reduction which has been mentioned and needs to be fixed. I would be surprised if someone isn't working on it now.

caveman42ub17_ESO

fantom wrote: »

Anyone that unsubs from this game because they can't hit or heal 100 people per second with 0 cooldown abilities is just being a cry-baby.

It's not good game design for 1 person to be able to kill 20 in an open field. And in most cases, they ALREADY can't. But you whiners are so bad that you didn't even notice.

If you're so obsessed with killing 30 players with one, man a siege engine. That's what they're designed for, and they have no AOE cap. They can kill as many people as you want.

Your post is so full of fail I actually don't know where to start. I actually have to congratulate you. It's so rare that I see someone make this many points that are entirely incorrect.

caveman42ub17_ESO

Zolyok wrote: »

Seriously the game changed so much for a difference of 2 damage aoe ?
If ppl can't realise that the only noticable difference is that now they know...
If ppl will play mindless blob it's only because they choose to.

There is NO aoe cap currently. Without naming names, someone is passing incorrect information. This is a plain and simple nerf.

ChairGraveyard

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

"Omg guys, why are you using Area of Effect Spells to take out multiple targets...
That's just skill-less game play!!"

Its like the pro cap people don't understand the concept of AoE

I know right. It's like they don't even understand basic WORDS.

Next patch ZOS is going to make AoE hit only 1 target, and the pro-stacking cheaters will think it's the most brilliant "fix" ever.

Draconiuos

caveman42ub17_ESO wrote: »

Zolyok wrote: »

Seriously the game changed so much for a difference of 2 damage aoe ?
If ppl can't realise that the only noticable difference is that now they know...
If ppl will play mindless blob it's only because they choose to.

There is NO aoe cap currently. Without naming names, someone is passing incorrect information. This is a plain and simple nerf.

Actually there as been an AOE cap since the head start. People just haven't noticed it. Also, as for the GW2 blob yeah that won't be an issue once they hit a keep. Burning oil will wipe out and blob that is rushing into the keep packed together like that, and even before the wall is down the other siege weapons will make them spread out. As for out in the field the Zerg ball was already there.

kunjal29rwb17_ESO

I don't want AoE caps, I want certain skills to be adjusted but not by limiting the number of targets. Maybe put a 60 second cooldown on ultimates instead?

If there is going to be a cap however, the cap should be at least 12-18. This will at least enable some degree of zerg busting by smaller groups.

Draconiuos

Personally what would be a cool idea is if they gave you a choice you can either have the skill use an AOE with a cap, or give it no cap but make it cost extra resource and reduced returns for every target over the cap.

I think this would be a good alternative to an AOE cap.

kunjal29rwb17_ESO

As for the poll, even though I voted for No Caps, the best form of voting will be with your wallet, cancelling your sub will send the loudest message you can.

largusmeansb16_ESO

AoE cap of 6 will not fix what is truly broken in PVP, ultimate spaming needs the fix. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyZsIDSSGV4

RivenEsq

Whether an “AoE cap was in the game since release and in the betas” or not is irrelevant. The point being made is that there were key abilities that did not have one. Those key abilities have been instrumental in being able to combat a larger force using tactics and positioning. Because of the power of these abilities against a stacked group (notice they are not so OP if you aren’t just clumped in a big ball), stacking/turtling has been a complete NON-factor in the game. These few abilities made it so that gameplay was carried out as if there were no cap. With the caps being placed on “these few abilities”, that risk of your force being blown up if you stack in a ball is gone. Stacking will be the premier strategy in PvP after this change. There isn’t any debating that. It happened in GW2, it will happen here. It doesn’t matter if the map is bigger in ESO because there are 3-4 times more players on the map than there were in GW2. People won’t be forced to “spread out” there will just be 3-4 groups of 100+ roaming around in a stack for each faction.



If I am so wrong, then someone explain to me:

Why are we rewarding unskilled PvP players for standing in AoE?

How does an AoE cap, in any way, not lead to stacking up so as to distribute the damage amongst one’s whole force?

How can you argue for a sweeping change, such as an AoE cap, instead of simply advocating for skill balancing? What would be the issue with actually balancing skills?



If we have truly fallen so far in game development that it is now “unfair” or “too easy” for players to be killed in PvP, then this is a dark day for ESO. The entire premise of PvP is that it is based on skill. If you aren’t smart enough to get out of an AoE field (A BIG F***ING RED CIRCLE), then I am sorry, but I cannot help you. If you die over and over to better players than yourself and do not learn or improve, then you will keep on dying. That is the nature of playing against other human beings. It is the survival of the fittest when it comes to PvP, you learn or you die.



Before anyone takes me out of context, I am fully in favor of balancing abilities and nerfing/limiting certain interactions on AoE abilities such as caster based buffs (heals, magicka, stamina, shields, armor, damage buffs, spell resists, etc.). For example, if an ability hits unlimited targets for an amount of damage and then heals for each target hit, that heal should be limited to a maximum number of people it can proc off of (this can be individually balanced for each ability). The damage from AoE, however, is the ONLY thing that prevents stacking/turtling and, therefore, MUST be maintained if there is to be engaging and fun PvP. I do also think that AoE doing more damage in the center and less damage on the outside would be an improvement and make the ability more skillful in using effectively.



If you haven’t played Guild Wars 2 or an actual game with RvR style gameplay, you really aren’t qualified to talk about the merits of an AoE cap and how crucial it is so people can’t “lolAoEspamEZmode”. There is a reason that every single person who played DAoC for 10+ years is weeping at this change and there is a reason that anyone who played Guild Wars 2 is weeping at it. It is because it leads to lower skill and competition.

Cuddler

prana33b14_ESO wrote: »

WOW. Crickets from Cuddler and the rest of the peanut gallery on this question. Not surprised.

I have nothing else to say in this thread really. Talking to you drama queens is like talking to a brick wall.

I said Cyrodiil is huge, and I have no trouble avoiding the zerg and finding small fights, yet called a zergling in response.

Others said capped AOEs and siege weapons are still very effective at breaking zergs, have always been since not much is changing, and some of the AOEs are even overpowered. Those others were called zerglings too.

ZOS said caps had always existed, and this statement was supported by tests on the live server, yet ZOS got insulted in response and blackmailed with cancellations. There's even a paranoid conspiracy theory that ZOS introduced the caps in recent patches without telling anyone.

You ladies are magnificent. One could even say that drama is all you care about. What else is there for me to contribute?

ChairGraveyard

I find it amusing how obvious the stacking exploiters are here, despite their cowardice preventing them from outright saying they want to cheat.

^^^

RaZaddha

Cuddler wrote: »

prana33b14_ESO wrote: »

WOW. Crickets from Cuddler and the rest of the peanut gallery on this question. Not surprised.

I have nothing else to say in this thread really. Talking to you drama queens is like talking to a brick wall.

I said Cyrodiil is huge, and I have no trouble avoiding the zerg and finding small fights, yet called a zergling in response.

Others said capped AOEs and siege weapons are still very effective at breaking zergs, have always been since not much is changing, and some of the AOEs are even overpowered. Those others were called zerglings too.

ZOS said caps had always existed, and this statement was supported by tests on the live server, yet ZOS got insulted in response and blackmailed with cancellations. There's even a paranoid conspiracy theory that ZOS introduced the caps in recent patches without telling anyone.

You ladies are magnificent. One could even say that drama is all you care about. What else is there for me to contribute?

Thats awesome, we always wanted a siege wars game where you have to put stactic siege and click once your left mouse button every 10 secs instead of a dynamic combat system that rewards individual player skill rather than the blob with the bigger number.


ELDER SCROLLS ONLINE
Member Since February 5, 2014
ACCOUNT STATUS
Active - Cancelled
GAME TIME REMAINING
You have 5 days of game time remaining.

PS: I'm not leaving just because of AoE caps, Cyrodiil is completely broken and I can't have fun on it anymore.

Syndy

@caveman42ub17_ESO

Please refer to this Dev Post before you say something else that is not true...

RivenEsq

@Cuddler Read my post. It addresses why the few abilities without a cap prevented -stacking-, not zerging. Zerging will happen no matter what, but stacking is exploitive of the game system with an AoE cap. You are purposefully standing in the damage in order to take less as a group, yeah, that makes sense. /sarcasm

The couple abilities that had no cap were incidentally also the most effective against a stack of players and, because of that, perpetuated the belief that there were no caps. And if you can find ANY acknowledgment of ZOS saying that there was a cap in the game other than Jessica Folsom's post, be my guest. In fact, they insisted previously that smaller groups would be able to fight against larger groups, which would indicate that there was no cap, or not intended to be one, despite their avoidance of the direct questions about caps.

If you think that there was not deception from ZOS as to the very existence of the cap, much less the reasoning for the cap, then you are deaf, blind, and ignorant.

prana33b14_ESO

Cuddler wrote: »

I said Cyrodiil is huge, and I have no trouble avoiding the zerg and finding small fights, yet called a zergling in response.

Others said capped AOEs and siege weapons are still very effective at breaking zergs, have always been since not much is changing, and some of the AOEs are even overpowered. Those others were called zerglings too.

Lol no you didnt. You said you have no problem finding squishies while we were talking about fighting clumped up groups. That you can find someone running solo is completely beside the point. The for letting us know you don't have a clue what is going on in this convo.

valkaneer2b14_ESO

Cuddler wrote: »

prana33b14_ESO wrote: »

WOW. Crickets from Cuddler and the rest of the peanut gallery on this question. Not surprised.

I have nothing else to say in this thread really. Talking to you drama queens is like talking to a brick wall.

I said Cyrodiil is huge, and I have no trouble avoiding the zerg and finding small fights, yet called a zergling in response.

Others said capped AOEs and siege weapons are still very effective at breaking zergs, have always been since not much is changing, and some of the AOEs are even overpowered. Those others were called zerglings too.

ZOS said caps had always existed, and this statement was supported by tests on the live server, yet ZOS got insulted in response and blackmailed with cancellations. There's even a paranoid conspiracy theory that ZOS introduced the caps in recent patches without telling anyone.

You ladies are magnificent. One could even say that drama is all you care about. What else is there for me to contribute?

Draconiuos wrote: »

caveman42ub17_ESO wrote: »

Zolyok wrote: »

Seriously the game changed so much for a difference of 2 damage aoe ?
If ppl can't realise that the only noticable difference is that now they know...
If ppl will play mindless blob it's only because they choose to.

There is NO aoe cap currently. Without naming names, someone is passing incorrect information. This is a plain and simple nerf.

Actually there as been an AOE cap since the head start. People just haven't noticed it. Also, as for the GW2 blob yeah that won't be an issue once they hit a keep. Burning oil will wipe out and blob that is rushing into the keep packed together like that, and even before the wall is down the other siege weapons will make them spread out. As for out in the field the Zerg ball was already there.

Fail argument.....When we take all your resources away how are you going to keep using siege equipment? You have got to come out and fight, and you will meet the Zerg.

Digerati

PacifistCC wrote: »

KerinKor wrote: »

And since I see comments about DAoC, it was bad there as well. AOE mezz anyone? Uncapped AOE is a bad idea unless it has serious drawbacks.

What? Mezz in DAoC breakes on damage, can be cured by other players, can be purged by yourself, there are items with mezz deflection and some classes have abilities to grant short time CC immunity for the whole group. There are resistances that reduce the mezz duration. Some classes are harder to CC. For the powerful long range mezzes you need to stand still, if you want want to cast uninterrupted, then you sacrifice duration.

These are balanced drawbacks. It took time to balance it, once upon a time you would stand still for a minute, but late game DAoC has one of the best CC systems ever to be implemented, it is a game of positioning and reaction. In today's DAoC if 100 people are stuck to 1 guy and all get mezzed, then stunned and snared and PBAoE'd to death - it is their problem.

For sure. in DAoC, mezzes are a quick-draw kind of thing for the CC-master of each group.. it's an interesting meta that can greatly benefit your team but does not guarantee a victory or defeat in any situation. Sometimes, it can backfire against a coordinated group all purging at the same time, right as your team is about to set up..

Not saying that ESO should have something like this, just further illustrating your point that people generally have no idea what they're talking about when they bring up AoE mechanics.

Draconiuos

valkaneer2b14_ESO wrote: »

Cuddler wrote: »

prana33b14_ESO wrote: »

WOW. Crickets from Cuddler and the rest of the peanut gallery on this question. Not surprised.

I have nothing else to say in this thread really. Talking to you drama queens is like talking to a brick wall.

I said Cyrodiil is huge, and I have no trouble avoiding the zerg and finding small fights, yet called a zergling in response.

Others said capped AOEs and siege weapons are still very effective at breaking zergs, have always been since not much is changing, and some of the AOEs are even overpowered. Those others were called zerglings too.

ZOS said caps had always existed, and this statement was supported by tests on the live server, yet ZOS got insulted in response and blackmailed with cancellations. There's even a paranoid conspiracy theory that ZOS introduced the caps in recent patches without telling anyone.

You ladies are magnificent. One could even say that drama is all you care about. What else is there for me to contribute?

Draconiuos wrote: »

caveman42ub17_ESO wrote: »

Zolyok wrote: »

Seriously the game changed so much for a difference of 2 damage aoe ?
If ppl can't realise that the only noticable difference is that now they know...
If ppl will play mindless blob it's only because they choose to.

There is NO aoe cap currently. Without naming names, someone is passing incorrect information. This is a plain and simple nerf.

Actually there as been an AOE cap since the head start. People just haven't noticed it. Also, as for the GW2 blob yeah that won't be an issue once they hit a keep. Burning oil will wipe out and blob that is rushing into the keep packed together like that, and even before the wall is down the other siege weapons will make them spread out. As for out in the field the Zerg ball was already there.

Fail argument.....When we take all your resources away how are you going to keep using siege equipment? You have got to come out and fight, and you will meet the Zerg.

Actually your argument fails. You don't need resources to use siege equipment. Also, the abilities they mentioned if you read were meant to have an AOE cap on them, but were bugged. So, in essence you guys are defending the exploiting of a bug instead of trying to play the game as it was intended. My Guild has done great in pvp and we have never relied on aoes to take out larger groups. Focus fire kills people a lot quicker than aoes ever will.

prana33b14_ESO

Focus fire kills people a lot quicker than aoes ever will.

Then please answer the questions I asked in bolded that have been being asked throughout this thread and others without answers.

RaZaddha

Draconiuos wrote: »

valkaneer2b14_ESO wrote: »

Cuddler wrote: »

prana33b14_ESO wrote: »

WOW. Crickets from Cuddler and the rest of the peanut gallery on this question. Not surprised.

I have nothing else to say in this thread really. Talking to you drama queens is like talking to a brick wall.

I said Cyrodiil is huge, and I have no trouble avoiding the zerg and finding small fights, yet called a zergling in response.

Others said capped AOEs and siege weapons are still very effective at breaking zergs, have always been since not much is changing, and some of the AOEs are even overpowered. Those others were called zerglings too.

ZOS said caps had always existed, and this statement was supported by tests on the live server, yet ZOS got insulted in response and blackmailed with cancellations. There's even a paranoid conspiracy theory that ZOS introduced the caps in recent patches without telling anyone.

You ladies are magnificent. One could even say that drama is all you care about. What else is there for me to contribute?

Draconiuos wrote: »

caveman42ub17_ESO wrote: »

Zolyok wrote: »

Seriously the game changed so much for a difference of 2 damage aoe ?
If ppl can't realise that the only noticable difference is that now they know...
If ppl will play mindless blob it's only because they choose to.

There is NO aoe cap currently. Without naming names, someone is passing incorrect information. This is a plain and simple nerf.

Actually there as been an AOE cap since the head start. People just haven't noticed it. Also, as for the GW2 blob yeah that won't be an issue once they hit a keep. Burning oil will wipe out and blob that is rushing into the keep packed together like that, and even before the wall is down the other siege weapons will make them spread out. As for out in the field the Zerg ball was already there.

Fail argument.....When we take all your resources away how are you going to keep using siege equipment? You have got to come out and fight, and you will meet the Zerg.

Actually your argument fails. You don't need resources to use siege equipment. Also, the abilities they mentioned if you read were meant to have an AOE cap on them, but were bugged. So, in essence you guys are defending the exploiting of a bug instead of trying to play the game as it was intended. My Guild has done great in pvp and we have never relied on aoes to take out larger groups. Focus fire kills people a lot quicker than aoes ever will.

Everyone thought there was no AoE cap, we are all surprised that there is a cap and now because we know there is one the meta is changing into the same turtling as GW2. So yeah, we prefered when the game was "bugged" (no aoe caps) rather than how it's supposed to play as "intended", but since the tooltipis was misleading us into thinking there was no AoE cap how the game was "intended" to be played would be to avoid clumping up.

Tell me how easy it is to focus fire when the enemy runs like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hyK9tLzG5o
http://www.twitch.tv/prydatv/c/4091868

Even if you do manage to focus fire the AoE heal being spammed is really hard to beat. In essence even if you manage to focus fire it still won't be enough to make zergs spread out instad of clumping up.

Xsorus

I see Matt Firor still doesn't have the balls to address the DAOC community he obviously misled when he talked about this game.

He now joins the ranks of Paul Barnett as *** spinner

Xaei

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

I see Matt Firor still doesn't have the balls to address the DAOC community he obviously misled when he talked about this game.

He now joins the ranks of Paul Barnett as *** spinner

The lack of developer communication concerns me greatly. For a 'developer discussion' forum, it sure lacks any developer discussion.

Catches_the_Sun

So only 5 abilities, which were bugged and therefore not hitting the limit, are being adjusted...and we're crying foul, saying the sky is falling. I don't see this having much of an impact.