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Do you think there should be an AoE cap?
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Lucky28✭✭✭✭✭
✭NoJoy_Division wrote: »
I pretty much learned that on the last PTS.
Still, the AOE cap needs to go.Edited by Lucky28 on October 23, 2015 2:47PMInvictus0 -
SleepyTroll✭✭✭✭✭
✭NoDam that's crazy... so ZOS really doesn't listen to feedback unless it's making something easier or the 100th thread about nerfing a skill.1 -
Aquanova✭✭✭✭✭I've made a few posts about this topic.
One thing I will say: vamp needs a nerf.
I see two types of arguments about the changes.
On one hand we have people (like myself) who don't like this change because it negates the importance of skill, positioning, timing, and teamwork.
On the other hand, you have people who do like this change, because in their opinion AOE abilities are overpowered.
AOE abilities have a direct counter. They aren't one hit "I win" buttons. You literally have to be within a small radius of the spells effect. Some would argue that spreading out or crowd control is a counter to this.
On the other hand, zergs have a counter. This counter is uncapped aoe abilities. If aoe abilities are given a cap then this counterplay disappears.
With that said, I haven't seen anything else that really screams overpowered to me (outside of vamp abilities). I've gotten caught with bad positioning and lived because I spread out from the clump as soon as I realized AOEs were being dropped.
If you and a dozen other people stand in range of 5 people spamming impulse, you should die. It isn't that hard to spread out. It isn't that hard to use crowd control.
Let me give you some perspective on my thoughts on the issue:
Pretend Bob plays a melee class. Bob only has melee abilities on his bar. I'm talking a bar filled to the brim with 7 meter range abilities. He has no gap closers, CC immunities, etc.
Now say Bob gets attacked by a bow nightblade. The nightblade has snares, knock backs, and ranged damage.
Bob tries to fight back, but he doesn't have the proper abilities on his bars. Every time he gets close, the nightblade gets away from him.
Bob dies, and gets upset. Bob thinks that ranged abilities need a nerf. He doesn't think that the way he plays the game needs to change, he's doing FINE. It's those NIGHTBLADES that are too overpowered, they need a nerf.
Now if Bob had some gap closers and crowd control on his bars, he would have had a chance. Just because Bob doesn't understand the counters to a specific playstyle doesn't mean that the playstyle is inherently broken, it just means that Bob needs to find a way to beat that playstyle.
PvP games, especially the best ones, rely on an ever-changing metagame. New strategies evolve to beat the "best strategies" that exist. B beats A, so B becomes popular. C beats B, so now C becomes popular. Just because something is difficult to counter doesn't mean it deserves a massive nerf. Only when strategies and abilities have no counter at all do they need to be nerfed.
I said it before and I'll say it again:
Area of Effect abilities have a direct counter (read: they can be beaten)
Spread out.
Don't stand close to each other and you obliterate the usefulness of AOE abilities.
Use crowd control. Have you seen what happens to these smaller numbers when they get crowd controlled, even for a few seconds? They get annihilated.
"Outside of vamp abilities"? WTF are you talking about? Bats? Are you seriously saying it's OP and needs a nerf? You explained in your own"Area of Effect abilities" section how to counter it. If you think it's OP you really need to L2P.
Quoting someone from April 2014 aren't we?
By then vamps were indeed totally broken, but as was the entire balance considering the few vids I have seen.
Still. NO to AoE caps.
Lol, my bad. I didn't check the post date.
NA/PC0 -
Ishammael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭NoI've made a few posts about this topic.
One thing I will say: vamp needs a nerf.
I see two types of arguments about the changes.
On one hand we have people (like myself) who don't like this change because it negates the importance of skill, positioning, timing, and teamwork.
On the other hand, you have people who do like this change, because in their opinion AOE abilities are overpowered.
AOE abilities have a direct counter. They aren't one hit "I win" buttons. You literally have to be within a small radius of the spells effect. Some would argue that spreading out or crowd control is a counter to this.
On the other hand, zergs have a counter. This counter is uncapped aoe abilities. If aoe abilities are given a cap then this counterplay disappears.
With that said, I haven't seen anything else that really screams overpowered to me (outside of vamp abilities). I've gotten caught with bad positioning and lived because I spread out from the clump as soon as I realized AOEs were being dropped.
If you and a dozen other people stand in range of 5 people spamming impulse, you should die. It isn't that hard to spread out. It isn't that hard to use crowd control.
Let me give you some perspective on my thoughts on the issue:
Pretend Bob plays a melee class. Bob only has melee abilities on his bar. I'm talking a bar filled to the brim with 7 meter range abilities. He has no gap closers, CC immunities, etc.
Now say Bob gets attacked by a bow nightblade. The nightblade has snares, knock backs, and ranged damage.
Bob tries to fight back, but he doesn't have the proper abilities on his bars. Every time he gets close, the nightblade gets away from him.
Bob dies, and gets upset. Bob thinks that ranged abilities need a nerf. He doesn't think that the way he plays the game needs to change, he's doing FINE. It's those NIGHTBLADES that are too overpowered, they need a nerf.
Now if Bob had some gap closers and crowd control on his bars, he would have had a chance. Just because Bob doesn't understand the counters to a specific playstyle doesn't mean that the playstyle is inherently broken, it just means that Bob needs to find a way to beat that playstyle.
PvP games, especially the best ones, rely on an ever-changing metagame. New strategies evolve to beat the "best strategies" that exist. B beats A, so B becomes popular. C beats B, so now C becomes popular. Just because something is difficult to counter doesn't mean it deserves a massive nerf. Only when strategies and abilities have no counter at all do they need to be nerfed.
I said it before and I'll say it again:
Area of Effect abilities have a direct counter (read: they can be beaten)
Spread out.
Don't stand close to each other and you obliterate the usefulness of AOE abilities.
Use crowd control. Have you seen what happens to these smaller numbers when they get crowd controlled, even for a few seconds? They get annihilated.
"Outside of vamp abilities"? WTF are you talking about? Bats? Are you seriously saying it's OP and needs a nerf? You explained in your own"Area of Effect abilities" section how to counter it. If you think it's OP you really need to L2P.
The only reason this is necro'ed is b/c of the AoE cap poll. Ignore the rest of the comments, mate -- they're from April of last year.0 -
BossTuggles✭✭✭NoNecro post is needed. We should get this stickied as well. What is so prophetic about this post is how everyone stated how this game would just devolve into Ball groups v Ball groups, and how the population would just take a nose dive. WHO WOULDA THOUGHT!Edited by BossTuggles on October 24, 2015 1:00AMLike a Boss!5
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Wollust✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭NoCome on ZoS. 37 pages of the past becoming reality, 4k people voting on the poll with 87% NO, but you guys don't give a damn am I right? At least have the guts and the respect to tell US, the players, your customers, to scrap it as YOU, ZoS, do not care the slightest about our feedback.
@ZOS_BrianWheeler
@ZOS_RichLambert
@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_KaiSchoberSusano'o
Zerg Squad4 -
Artemisshrikes✭✭✭NoI think it needs bigger rangeVR 16 Dragonknight Sarenvog (AD, Former Emperor)0 -
Ezareth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭No@ZOS_RichLambert your customer base has spoken, are you listening or is this falling on deaf ears?Permanently banned from the forums for displaying dissent: ESO - The Year Behind
Too Much Bolt Escape - banned for "hacking the game to create movement not otherwise permitted by in game mechanics."
Ezareth VR16 AD Sorc - Rank 36 - Axe NA
Ezareth-Ali VR16 DC NB - Rank 20 - Chillrend NA
Ezareth PvP on Youtube1 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No@ZOS_RichLambert your customer base has spoken, are you listening or is this falling on deaf ears?
He never comes when summoned.1 -
altemriel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭NoI do NOT agree with AoE cap, they should increase the server capacity instead0 -
I'm new to MMO's and PVP but have been playing this game since launch. The way I see it this has more to do with money and less to do with game mechanics. Competitive PVP is not a money maker. This is obvious by all the people talking about nerfs in other games (GW2). The change to cap AOE abilities/caps will impact the best players but not the average players. The bigger problem is a lot of the changes to the game has impacted the games performance negatively and from what people are saying here this has a lot to do with it.
Competitive PVP for me has not been a lot of fun but is a challenge that I want to over come, so I will continue to play and try to get better at it. For a lot of people getting ganked and over matched in Cyrodiil is just not what they call fun.
Many have referred to this change as an “easy button” and that is probably what was intended. In all business models the “easy buttons” make more money and in life we all want “easy buttons” in something we do. As we all should know by now ZeniMax is about making money first and trying to keep as many gamers playing and using the crown store as possible second, everything else is optional.
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Merlin13KAGL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Is there a trophy or achieve for longest duration rez? I'd say this one's in the running, if so.Just because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...
Earn it.
IRL'ing for a while for assorted reasons, in forum, and in game.I am neither warm, nor fuzzy...
Probably has checkbox on Customer Service profile that say High Aggro, 99% immunity to BS1 -
_Chaos✭✭✭✭✭
✭No@Wrobel
Now that you have a forum account, can you please take a look and give us some feedback as to what swayed ZOS into implementing AOE caps despite a vast majority of the customer base being opposed to it?
I have never seen such a large sample of community input as I do in this thread. The poll speaks volumes.
'Chaos6 -
Raizin✭✭✭✭Nospenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »@Wrobel
Now that you have a forum account, can you please take a look and give us some feedback as to what swayed ZOS into implementing AOE caps despite a vast majority of the customer base being opposed to it?
I have never seen such a large sample of community input as I do in this thread. The poll speaks volumes.
wut? he has account ?
.... just wow 24 months it took, wow! .... I guess significant number of ppl has left the game or is pissed too much, otherwise i dont know how or who forced him to do that. HellSeesYou = v16/AD/Rank 37-Former emp/EU TB-AZura(Old Auriels Bow badass) ___ Vampire Templar/Resto/Destro staff user from Banana squad
HellSeesAll - v16/EP/Rank 19 Magicka NB/Necrotic Lag member
HellSeesUs - v16/AD/Rank 18 Stamina Templar0 -
_Chaos✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nospenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »@Wrobel
Now that you have a forum account, can you please take a look and give us some feedback as to what swayed ZOS into implementing AOE caps despite a vast majority of the customer base being opposed to it?
I have never seen such a large sample of community input as I do in this thread. The poll speaks volumes.
@Wrobel I'll just keep tagging you once a day until you respond.
Keep in mind this is the largest poll sample ever among the PVP community, and it wasn't just a slim majority that voted against the caps. Can you give us any insight whatsoever as to why this was put in place? For the last year we've been told by other department heads that this is your responsibility, and we'd like someone to actually start taking that responsibility seriously by addressing our concerns on the matter.
Kindest Regards,
Chaos'Chaos6 -
Sublime✭✭✭✭NoThis might interest you:Guys! I'm blown away by your creativity, constructive posts, and kind words. My team and I have been compiling all the suggestions for review and while we certainly can't do everything, there is a lot of great stuff here to work with. We’re currently focused on class specific skills for this round… we will have another thread for non-class related abilities soon!
Special call out to @Ffastyl (post #172) for a really well thought out and detailed analysis of problems – bonus for the inclusion of some in game numbers to compare different aspects of balance. Keep up the good work.
Finally, a number of you are eager to talk about AoE caps. We’ll have a focused thread on that subject next week.EU | For those who want to improve their behaviour: the science behind shaping player bahaviour (presentation)2 -
WRX✭✭✭✭✭Nospenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »@Wrobel
Now that you have a forum account, can you please take a look and give us some feedback as to what swayed ZOS into implementing AOE caps despite a vast majority of the customer base being opposed to it?
I have never seen such a large sample of community input as I do in this thread. The poll speaks volumes.
@Wrobel I'll just keep tagging you once a day until you respond.
Keep in mind this is the largest poll sample ever among the PVP community, and it wasn't just a slim majority that voted against the caps. Can you give us any insight whatsoever as to why this was put in place? For the last year we've been told by other department heads that this is your responsibility, and we'd like someone to actually start taking that responsibility seriously by addressing our concerns on the matter.
Kindest Regards,
Chaos
We know why.
This is a casual MMO, a lot of peoples first, and is catering towards casual PvP by protecting poor players through the current AoE system.
Hard to spin that into something that sounds less sad.Decibel GM
GLUB GLUB4 -
Manoekin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭NoThis might interest you:Guys! I'm blown away by your creativity, constructive posts, and kind words. My team and I have been compiling all the suggestions for review and while we certainly can't do everything, there is a lot of great stuff here to work with. We’re currently focused on class specific skills for this round… we will have another thread for non-class related abilities soon!
Special call out to @Ffastyl (post #172) for a really well thought out and detailed analysis of problems – bonus for the inclusion of some in game numbers to compare different aspects of balance. Keep up the good work.
Finally, a number of you are eager to talk about AoE caps. We’ll have a focused thread on that subject next week.
Omg0 -
Jhunn✭✭✭✭✭
✭No
Word. Looking forward to see the thread next week, though. Don't dissapoint us, @WrobelWe know why.
This is a casual MMO, a lot of peoples first, and is catering towards casual PvP by protecting poor players through the current AoE system.
Hard to spin that into something that sounds less sad.
Edited by Jhunn on November 19, 2015 7:19AMGave up.1 -
k2blader✭✭✭✭✭spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »@Wrobel
Now that you have a forum account, can you please take a look and give us some feedback as to what swayed ZOS into implementing AOE caps despite a vast majority of the customer base being opposed to it?
I have never seen such a large sample of community input as I do in this thread. The poll speaks volumes.
@Wrobel I'll just keep tagging you once a day until you respond.
Keep in mind this is the largest poll sample ever among the PVP community, and it wasn't just a slim majority that voted against the caps. Can you give us any insight whatsoever as to why this was put in place? For the last year we've been told by other department heads that this is your responsibility, and we'd like someone to actually start taking that responsibility seriously by addressing our concerns on the matter.
Kindest Regards,
Chaos
We know why.
This is a casual MMO, a lot of peoples first, and is catering towards casual PvP by protecting poor players through the current AoE system.
Hard to spin that into something that sounds less sad.
Do "poor players" include the PvP guilds running 80%+ steel tornado spam?
Disabling the grass may improve performance.0 -
WRX✭✭✭✭✭Nospenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »@Wrobel
Now that you have a forum account, can you please take a look and give us some feedback as to what swayed ZOS into implementing AOE caps despite a vast majority of the customer base being opposed to it?
I have never seen such a large sample of community input as I do in this thread. The poll speaks volumes.
@Wrobel I'll just keep tagging you once a day until you respond.
Keep in mind this is the largest poll sample ever among the PVP community, and it wasn't just a slim majority that voted against the caps. Can you give us any insight whatsoever as to why this was put in place? For the last year we've been told by other department heads that this is your responsibility, and we'd like someone to actually start taking that responsibility seriously by addressing our concerns on the matter.
Kindest Regards,
Chaos
We know why.
This is a casual MMO, a lot of peoples first, and is catering towards casual PvP by protecting poor players through the current AoE system.
Hard to spin that into something that sounds less sad.
Do "poor players" include the PvP guilds running 80%+ steel tornado spam?
Yea, certainly some players in them and in some cases, guilds as a whole.
If they removed AoE caps on all skills including ultimates and a few other adjustments, I would never hear in TS "We just dont have the numbers to hurt them" even if I was with an 8 or so man group.Decibel GM
GLUB GLUB1 -
k2blader✭✭✭✭✭spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »@Wrobel
Now that you have a forum account, can you please take a look and give us some feedback as to what swayed ZOS into implementing AOE caps despite a vast majority of the customer base being opposed to it?
I have never seen such a large sample of community input as I do in this thread. The poll speaks volumes.
@Wrobel I'll just keep tagging you once a day until you respond.
Keep in mind this is the largest poll sample ever among the PVP community, and it wasn't just a slim majority that voted against the caps. Can you give us any insight whatsoever as to why this was put in place? For the last year we've been told by other department heads that this is your responsibility, and we'd like someone to actually start taking that responsibility seriously by addressing our concerns on the matter.
Kindest Regards,
Chaos
We know why.
This is a casual MMO, a lot of peoples first, and is catering towards casual PvP by protecting poor players through the current AoE system.
Hard to spin that into something that sounds less sad.
Do "poor players" include the PvP guilds running 80%+ steel tornado spam?
Yea, certainly some players in them and in some cases, guilds as a whole.
If they removed AoE caps on all skills including ultimates and a few other adjustments, I would never hear in TS "We just dont have the numbers to hurt them" even if I was with an 8 or so man group.
Yeah I cringe when I hear that too. I'd mainly like something to stop/solve the AoE spam, which I'm not sure removing the AoE cap would do.. Will be interesting to hear what Zeni says.
Disabling the grass may improve performance.0
This discussion has been closed.