Tanks are not required for any current content and slow you down.

lajnus86b16_ESO

should not make conclusion until the raid is released these are just their first vet dungeons, not raids, who knows if everyone except full mitgationbuild tank can tank some bosses later on?, if they slapfist anyone besides the tank he dies?

We do not know, the biggest concern tanks have right now is the ability to dish out a reasonable amount of damage from their stamina pool to be worth it right now its not and there is not good abilities for it, unless you wanna gimp your surviveability.

Kayvee

So what I'm hearing here is that Siphoning Night Blades with taunt and heavy armor are the best "tanks"?

Xanxarib16_ESO

any tank in heavy armor and SnS weapon skill are good tanks.

if you want to min/max your tank well then that's something else, Sorc got the low end of the stick on that one. and well Templar and DK are pretty even when it comes to Armor, ress and block, but when it comes to the Ultimate, DK is far better.
And then there is the NB. NB is kinda funny for if you use slip away or go invis and still have the highest agro on the boss the boss will just stand still and do nothing, you can even break channel skills from the boss this way. the mechanic is broken and this is also why NB is just as good as the DK when it comes to tanking.

Wifeaggro13

steinernein wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

I think at the moment this is the huge elephant in the room . You have to have a dedicated healer, you have to have dedicated dps and everyone needs to cc to accomplish these veteran dungeons. But you do not need a defensive damage absorber or agro management removing all need for a tank. This watered down trinity not an expanded or dynamic system. It dances the line of Gw2. It becomes do as much dps avoid puddles and kite. These mechanics are not complex. There are far more dynamic encounters when there iz mezing agro management and mitigating spike damage. Right now the mechanics are 3 ranged dps kite and drop heal puddles. Lets get it moving in a fun challenging direction. Many many people enjoy the tank role lets make it viable and keep the fun action for the dps

I think you're the one imagining the elephant because there certainly isn't any; you don't need a dedicated healer, you don't need everyone to have CC, you certainly don't need dedicated DPS unless it's a DPS race.

What you do need is a sensible composition for any given fight and until leaderboards release or more people start posting times and set ups the sample size is a bit too small for you to start throwing around the claims that there is an elephant in the room.

You're also constructing a false constraint by saying that under everyone and all conditions people must run XYZ when you should be saying 'optimal groups will have X, Y, and Z. " The former is a constraint which reduces diversity while the latter, while reducing diversity, at least promotes class balance and encourages better mechanics. Unfortunately, it's a bit too early for you to even begin talking about the latter since our sample size is a bit too small.

no , i dont think you understand at all. there are adjustments that will and need to be made . its simply sad that one anyone brings some light on to flaws of the game people will rush in to defend either mismanaged or short sighted design implementation. No one in here is saying ESO sucks . Hell man i love this game its crap load of fun and im blown away by the immersion and amount of content. But you need to look at the current state of end game. The Veteran dungeons are dropping VR5 gear only though they are listed as V1 through 5 , they are not scaling. i could give a rats behind that they are extremely hard at V1. but the itmezation is borked,number two the chest in all the instances drop the original loot table. you go into FG and youll get lvl 16 items from chest and the static loot nodes. Youcannot do a VR dungeon with out a healer partner and you cannot do a VR dungeon with out DPS. how do you kill it then? you bore it to death?

Audigy

lajnus86b16_ESO wrote: »

should not make conclusion until the raid is released these are just their first vet dungeons, not raids, who knows if everyone except full mitgationbuild tank can tank some bosses later on?, if they slapfist anyone besides the tank he dies?

We do not know, the biggest concern tanks have right now is the ability to dish out a reasonable amount of damage from their stamina pool to be worth it right now its not and there is not good abilities for it, unless you wanna gimp your surviveability.

You see this from a wow players point of view and this is wrong. If I play a tank then not because I want to deal a lot of damage, but because I want to protect my group.

I never quite understood why Blizzard carved in to all that whine that some tanks had "we don't do enough damage weee weee". If they want to do damage, why not pick a DPS?

If ZO really wants their dungeons without a tank, then they must design their raids in the same way. Why should someone invest in tanking gear if the only content where its needed is a raid?

I do believe that ZO had tanks in mind when they designed the dungeons, else they wouldn't have added the whole tank / healer / dps role thing there.

Its again only the community that wants to dismiss tanks, as they don't do enough damage in their eyes. Its the same Elitist thinking that you face at wow in the low level dungeons.


In my opinion people should start to respect tanks more again, when I started with MMO´s a tank was a highly respected role, but today you often feel like a scrub only worth talking to if others struggle with incoming damage.

Xanxarib16_ESO

well since tanks aka players that use the SnS weapon skill line brings the best debuff in the game i would say tanks bring the dps in this game, so that should't be a problem.

Bloodlance

Atm, DKs r overpowered , and group running with 4 x DKs will faceroll ANY content.

As such, talking about veteran dungeons , we should talk , what group composition you r having.

Xanxarib16_ESO

1 DK tank, 1 temp healer, 2 Sorc dps.
1 DK tank, 1 temp healer, 1 temp dps, 1 temp sorc.

Crowtac

Speaking as a V2 orc tank, tanking in Eso is definitlely missing something.
Whether that is the sword and shield skill line missing basic tanking skills like:

Aggro gain by % when a shield is equipped:
Some kind of party wide armor or resistance buff that the tank can bestow upon the group for hourly long duration:
Some kind of defensive oh crap button when on 20% health, (like a pally bubble, or increased stats for a short duration?)


I left Guild Wars 2 because of the lack of the trinity, the way Eso is going it does not feel like much of a change. Eso is so Aoe freindly that the roles for a tanking charcter are few and far between.

Magister_Aena

I have to agree with this thread and provide my dungeon experience.

Every single time it's been the same. I land in a group where we have one of each class (myself being a sorceror), and we end up being a completely dysfunctional group that disbands at the first bug. Then, I land in a group of all sorcerors, and then begins half an hour of fun through a suddenly unbugged dungeon. Most of these sorceror groups don't have dedicated tanks, yet get through the dungeon easily. The best team, in my opinion, seems to be all sorcerors or three sorcerors and a templar, no tank necessary.

Solid

I don't disagree that the old low dps tanks are not as effective in this game. However if you get the right tank/armored dps it makes life a lot easier. I generally DK tank but will roll with a high AOE dps spec with debuffs and roots, this in general allows the range dps to hit harder and not have to worry about rolling around to avoid trash mobs.

Xanxarib16_ESO

Heavy armor = half a tank.
SnS = half a tank and half dps.

Light armor = full out Magica dps.
Medium = full out melee stamina dps.


if you are in full heavy or 5/2 heavy/something you are not a dps anymore but a half ass crap tank, you might as well take the SnS up and go full tank and add the best debuff in the game, so your own and the other two dps can increase there dps.


if you dont get this, you dont get how this game works...

Keiffo

Xanxarib16_ESO wrote: »

Heavy armor = half a tank.
SnS = half a tank and half dps.

Light armor = full out Magica dps.
Medium = full out melee stamina dps.


if you are in full heavy or 5/2 heavy/something you are not a dps anymore but a half ass crap tank, you might as well take the SnS up and go full tank and add the best debuff in the game, so your own and the other two dps can increase there dps.


if you dont get this, you dont get how this game works...

The nightblade has a 40% armour debuff too, without a sword and shield being required. Not sure if it would stack with the 1h+shield tree debuff.

Xanxarib16_ESO

they stack or multiple for around 60% reduction.
the DK dragon breath reduce the armor with 40% and with SnS we will reduce is to around 60%

Andy22

Xanxarib16_ESO wrote: »

and you sir. dont get what a "Tank" brings to the table, if you cant get that a SnS taunt can give your dps 43% more damage from either class or weapon skills then you really should take a look at the skills again...

a dk can bring 43% and 40% armor reduction to a fight toal it to ~60% armor reduction and 43% spell res reduction. your two dps and your healer should now do the same damage as 3 dps classes would do.

I notice some misconception of armor/spell "reduction" and actual DPS increase.

Here are my observations so far.

1) Most PvE mobs have little to no armor/spell resistance. The number ranges from 5-15% total reduction.

2) For the bosses i tested the stacked armor reduction 40% + 40% as NB, had very limited effect on actual DPS. My conclusion was that "many" bosses also just have 10-30% armor/spell reduction.

Now lets do the math:

without reduction
300 damage as base, reduced by 15% armor = 255 damage.

with 40% armor reduction:
300 damage as base, reduced by 11% armor = 267 damage.

The 40% reduction nets around a 4.5% increase in dps, if we multiply this for the normal tank/healer/dps/dps group by 2.5, we get a 11.25% increase in total DPS.

So the final DPS increase depends largely on how much armor/spell resist the boss has in the first place.

Those are only my personal rough observations, for the first 3 Vet dungeons. If later bosses have higher armor/resist values, than this becomes more usefully. On the other hand 11-20% total dps increase is not bad at all

Wifeaggro13

Xanxarib16_ESO wrote: »

Heavy armor = half a tank.
SnS = half a tank and half dps.

Light armor = full out Magica dps.
Medium = full out melee stamina dps.


if you are in full heavy or 5/2 heavy/something you are not a dps anymore but a half ass crap tank, you might as well take the SnS up and go full tank and add the best debuff in the game, so your own and the other two dps can increase there dps.


if you dont get this, you dont get how this game works...

Largely the issue is the tanking mechanics in general are poor. i myself completely understand how the game works. And i successfully tank the Vr modes with ease, they are mostly super easy after the first run . The issue is they made the role with very little definition. DPS has clear definition and Healing has clear definition.But tanking its actually doable with out one if you have a well geared dps and healing.But you cannot do VR with out DPS or heals. none of the classes get really solid cc you can argue Dark talons but its rather poor high cost,low time and easily broke. Damage reduction De buffs as others have pointed out are questionable. boss mechanics are fine for the most part.trash pulls are extremely borked social ranges are out of control. no long term CC's just make the tactics clump and and AOE burn. not much tactics there. Add in the fact if you try to play a traditional melee DPS in DK you do more damage with shield bashing then you would with heavy attacks and class abilities. There are tweaks that need to be made in mechanics, the game is not difficult its actually rudimentary in group mechanics.I think what the OP is trying to point out is this . Tanks bring stuff to the table sure, but they are not required. but healing and DPS is. Tanking needs some tweaks as well as mechanics of combat.I also would like to see a true CC line in one of these classes. CC has been so watered down as has utility. its taken away from complex group dynamics that could have been here in ESO.

Shaun98ca2

roleplay100ub17_ESO wrote: »

I have to agree with this thread and provide my dungeon experience.

Every single time it's been the same. I land in a group where we have one of each class (myself being a sorceror), and we end up being a completely dysfunctional group that disbands at the first bug. Then, I land in a group of all sorcerors, and then begins half an hour of fun through a suddenly unbugged dungeon. Most of these sorceror groups don't have dedicated tanks, yet get through the dungeon easily. The best team, in my opinion, seems to be all sorcerors or three sorcerors and a templar, no tank necessary.

Sorcerers have an ability called bound armor that once casted STAYS on with a Max Magicka reductions that basically makes them tanks even in Light Armor and an even better tank in Medium armor due to increased DPS. No S&S required just massive amounts of DPS and CC.

Sorcerers make AMAZING tanks.

Xanxarib16_ESO

Shaun98ca2 you dont get why you should take SnS and 5 heavy armor pieces. its not for the flat armor increase its for there passive...

steinernein

And most people still haven't answered the only question that needs to be answered; how far ahead or below does a tanking group do compared to non-traditional groups?

Again, who gives a *** if you can do a dungeon without a tank, the real question is whether or not you need a tank to make sure your chances for top 10 or whatever arbitrary value are as high as possible.

Sigh.

timothynrwb17_ESO

It's a lot like intimitanking in DDO. It's more of a control DPS role than a dedicated Tanking role.

Threat is different. There's no "bonus" threat stance. You get aggro by damage. Sword and Board is capable of a lot of damage as most of the class dps abilities are independent of weapon choice and run off mana.

Volkoth

Keiffo wrote: »

Earlier today I was in the group finder searching for a veteran Banished Cells group to get the achievement I was missing.

After a few minutes, we had 2x DPS, 1x Healer and no tank. Since nobody joined as the 4th slot after few minutes, we decided to just start the dungeon and see if we could manage it with 3. We cleared it super easily, with only 3 people and no tank. We only wiped once on the final boss because one of us wasn't sure how to cleanse the debuff.

Because of this success, we agreed to find a third DPS to fill the 4th slot for the Spindleclutch and Fungal Grotto vet dungeons. Those runs went so much better than any other runs I've been in. We cleared both dungeons very fast, and killed the gargoyle in Spindleclutch in far less time than we would've done with a tank instead of a third DPS. We collected undaunted achievements on the first try of the final bosses. Only me and one other person in the group knew the mechanics of the bosses, and telling the other 2 members was more than enough to clear it first try.

There was never a point in any of the 3 dungeons where we felt we could use a tank. Kiting bosses while doing high DPS is far more valuable than being a low DPS meat shield. Even a healer can keep up in DPS with a tank, and heals are far more useful.

Things to note that are not in a tank's favour in the first 3 dungeons:

Fungal Grotto

The Daedric spider boss is immune to taunts and doesn't do enough damage for it to even matter, meaning a tank is just a low DPS person who is tagging along.

The second last boss cannot be fought in melee range, making tanking options limited, but again, no need for a tank as the tactic is to run away from him when you have aggro.

The final boss often cannot be fought in melee range as she stands on her dark circle AoE a lot. Ranged tanking is viable, but it's hardly worth the tiny amount of defensive bonuses given. A third dps is still a better option here.

Spindleclutch

The Gargoyle in Spindleclutch is arguably the hardest boss in the first 3 veteran dungeons, and having a tank there instead of a third DPS lowers your chances of killing it on time (the boss is a DPS race) it's easier for one of the DPS characters (ranged preferably) to use the undaunted ranged taunt and then block power attacks or stealth out of them, or buff their armour with one of the many skills available.

Praxin sends 3 claws out from under him making it harder for melee tanks to dodge them. He also casts the ring on a random player, if it's the melee tank, he can often get stuck on the stairs and die by touching the wall of the ring.

The second last boss has a very very powerful heavy attack and it's a great idea to kite him , having no tank at all.

Banished Cells

The final boss teleports around a lot, making melee tanks, and well any melee class less effective.

The first boss sends fire out from under his feet, making it very hard for melee tanks to dodge.

The giant Daedroth can be kited easy, and it's much faster to have a third dps in there. No need for any form of tank or even any defensive utility.




Now I'm not a tank player, but judging from the time it takes to find a tank for any VR dungeon compared to DPS + healer recruitment times it would seem people dislike tanking. With good reason too.

I like the way this game really doesn't put every player's character into just one role. I personally like DPS with defensive utility. (I soloed a few veteran dungeon bosses with stealth armor buff and lifesteal utility) I've seen DKs solo veteran dungeon bosses with a bow and very little effort in whatever it is they do.

But really, in every situation a straight up tank player slows your group down. A DPS with some defensive utility or synergy oppertunities (Bone shield is EPIC) and a healer who also has defensive utility or dps skills is far more effective for everything than having a tank.

You are smoking crack. simply put Bro

Punche

Tanks are not needed for V1-V5 content, and even most of the V6-V10 content. Why? Because a decent healer can keep everyone alive while sustaining pretty much infinite magicka, as long as the DPS have at least 1 defensive/support skill slotted.

Coming from a V10 DK tank, I will tell you that the more intense the fights get, the more constraint on healer magicka. So I wouldn't get used to fights without a tank, it will definitely backfire on you in the days to come.

Punche

Double post.

Derp me.

Keiffo

Bloodlance wrote: »

Atm, DKs r overpowered , and group running with 4 x DKs will faceroll ANY content.

As such, talking about veteran dungeons , we should talk , what group composition you r having.

Yeah I've seen the power of DKs they are pretty ridiculous. I hope it will be the first nerfed class.

Just for the sake of this thread, and as an argument against any thread claiming the dungeons are too hard, I've just cleared Banished Cells with a group of only two.

5 more videos to come, showing 2 players clearing the others, not 4. Just 2, and no tank.

I was DPS as a nightblade, and the healer was a vampire, making it even harder since all the damage is fire pretty much.

No tanks, no deaths (healer died once to a fire attack on a boss, that's it).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0ReeteKsvg

Uploaded just now, IDK how long it will take the video to open up a 1080p option.

Semel

I would caution against generalization that every dungeon can be cleared with ANY two classes.

Keiffo

Semel wrote: »

I would caution against generalization that every dungeon can be cleared with ANY two classes.

I didn't ask what class Spellslayer was. If he used class related abilities, IDK what they are, I'll ask him when I go online.

As a NB I can say that with one NB in your group of two, mixed with ANY other class you can do all 6 dungeons, because that is what I was able to do, and that can be recreated.

I can also say from my guild mates experience that DK is so strong it's the best option for any 2 man party clearing the dungeons.

I can't comment on Templar or Sorc.

Wifeaggro13

Crowtac wrote: »

Speaking as a V2 orc tank, tanking in Eso is definitlely missing something.
Whether that is the sword and shield skill line missing basic tanking skills like:

Aggro gain by % when a shield is equipped:
Some kind of party wide armor or resistance buff that the tank can bestow upon the group for hourly long duration:
Some kind of defensive oh crap button when on 20% health, (like a pally bubble, or increased stats for a short duration?)


I left Guild Wars 2 because of the lack of the trinity, the way Eso is going it does not feel like much of a change. Eso is so Aoe freindly that the roles for a tanking charcter are few and far between.

its in poor shape indeed. I cannot figure out why people would applaud this lose Duoinity style of group mechanics. it is just one step away form guild wars 2. the only thing i can think of is its DPS players that just want zerg content, iknow not all the DPS feel that way but certainly some in this thread do. remove the need for heals and it just becomse a DPS race on every boss with lot s of dodging and AOE ing trash. Is that really what the community wants? Is that really your idea of team work and rich indepth game mechanics?
Its pretty sad that community would not support the players that enjoyed that role like myself. It exists in mediocrity here in ESO . it has some moments but those moments can be filled by any role really that the manual dexterity and knowledge of boss positioning or puddle placement. wouldnt you like true team work with real support and CC? not after thought hear is a couple of medicore abilities. You cannot do any of the VR dungeons with out a healer or DPs rolls. thats fine for the DPs and Healers but its not fine for those that enjoy tanking.

Wifeaggro13

Keiffo wrote: »

Semel wrote: »

I would caution against generalization that every dungeon can be cleared with ANY two classes.

I didn't ask what class Spellslayer was. If he used class related abilities, IDK what they are, I'll ask him when I go online.

As a NB I can say that with one NB in your group of two, mixed with ANY other class you can do all 6 dungeons, because that is what I was able to do, and that can be recreated.

I can also say from my guild mates experience that DK is so strong it's the best option for any 2 man party clearing the dungeons.

I can't comment on Templar or Sorc.

even this is wrong and out of balance.

Alpha_Protocol

@ OP - We'll see how your "Soul Reservoir" fares in 12 man.

Thechemicals wrote: »

I have been able to do these dungeons without dps. Myself and wife play shield tank templars with healing and have had all tanks groups and all tank+1 healer. Dps is not essential since tanks are only using puncture and active blocking (or should be). The rest of the skills are dps based (or should be). Even if you added puncture and 3 defensive skills in your bar- you still have 2 slots and an ultimate for dps. I think dps is less needed than a tank. Everyone does dps through magicka, not everyone can taunt a monster away from someone who gets in trouble. Food for thought.

However, healing is still a requirement in pve and pvp.

I agree 100%. The only "tanking" spell my magicka based Templar tank uses is Puncture with the debuff. Everything else is dps/heal/shield and regen. What people are forgetting is the only things that makes you a "tank" are the passives, your play style, and the skill-set you bring to the fight.

Wifeaggro13

Alpha_Protocol wrote: »

@ OP - We'll see how your "Soul Reservoir" fares in 12 man.

Thechemicals wrote: »

I have been able to do these dungeons without dps. Myself and wife play shield tank templars with healing and have had all tanks groups and all tank+1 healer. Dps is not essential since tanks are only using puncture and active blocking (or should be). The rest of the skills are dps based (or should be). Even if you added puncture and 3 defensive skills in your bar- you still have 2 slots and an ultimate for dps. I think dps is less needed than a tank. Everyone does dps through magicka, not everyone can taunt a monster away from someone who gets in trouble. Food for thought.

However, healing is still a requirement in pve and pvp.

I agree 100%. The only "tanking" spell my magicka based Templar tank uses is Puncture with the debuff. Everything else is dps/heal/shield and regen. What people are forgetting is the only things that makes you a "tank" are the passives, your play style, and the skill-set you bring to the fight.

thats the problem its a very murky less defined roll then DPS or Heals which is clearly defined . tanking at the moment is after thought hybrid . that is what many of us are seeing as a flaw for people who enjoy the tanking role. its jack of all trades and a master of none .