Tanks are not required for any current content and slow you down.

Wifeaggro13

Thechemicals wrote: »

I have been able to do these dungeons without dps. Myself and wife play shield tank templars with healing and have had all tanks groups and all tank+1 healer. Dps is not essential since tanks are only using puncture and active blocking (or should be). The rest of the skills are dps based (or should be). Even if you added puncture and 3 defensive skills in your bar- you still have 2 slots and an ultimate for dps. I think dps is less needed than a tank. Everyone does dps through magicka, not everyone can taunt a monster away from someone who gets in trouble. Food for thought.

However, healing is still a requirement in pve and pvp.

you doing VR dungeons? with out DPS?

Necropantzes

I have been running these dungeons so far as a tank with a healer and mage... thats it no forth member.. we are about to hit the 40 level ones. you may not need a tank but its a hell of alot smoother if you do have one

Thechemicals

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Thechemicals wrote: »

I have been able to do these dungeons without dps. Myself and wife play shield tank templars with healing and have had all tanks groups and all tank+1 healer. Dps is not essential since tanks are only using puncture and active blocking (or should be). The rest of the skills are dps based (or should be). Even if you added puncture and 3 defensive skills in your bar- you still have 2 slots and an ultimate for dps. I think dps is less needed than a tank. Everyone does dps through magicka, not everyone can taunt a monster away from someone who gets in trouble. Food for thought.

However, healing is still a requirement in pve and pvp.

you doing VR dungeons? with out DPS?

A tank class is just having puncture and active blocking. I dps with the aedric spear tree through magicka with magicka potions. So does every other tank.....that knows how to dps. Puncture hits harder than a heavy attack as well with passives.

BrassRazoo

I have only played one main toon and he is a High Elf Sorc.
I can solo some World Bosses (at V2 currently), but it takes ages and only on certain bosses with low or no adds.
Using the right skills for the right situation it is possible.
But I tell you now, I feel so much safer when there IS a dedicated Tank and a dedicated Healer in a group raid.
Let them do their job and I can do mine better .. which is supposed to be DPS and secondly CC or Off Heals.
I love Tanks and Healers.
Please don't stop Tanking. Everyone needs you.

Wifeaggro13

Thechemicals wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Thechemicals wrote: »

I have been able to do these dungeons without dps. Myself and wife play shield tank templars with healing and have had all tanks groups and all tank+1 healer. Dps is not essential since tanks are only using puncture and active blocking (or should be). The rest of the skills are dps based (or should be). Even if you added puncture and 3 defensive skills in your bar- you still have 2 slots and an ultimate for dps. I think dps is less needed than a tank. Everyone does dps through magicka, not everyone can taunt a monster away from someone who gets in trouble. Food for thought.

However, healing is still a requirement in pve and pvp.

you doing VR dungeons? with out DPS?

A tank class is just having puncture and active blocking. I dps with the aedric spear tree through magicka with magicka potions. So does every other tank.

I completely understand perhaps you need to read the entire thread. i know what a tank is its not a class its certain weapon lines and skill lines that create a dynamic of survivability, CC and ability to pull agro. What the thread is saying is none of those things are required. all you need is damage and healing and some CC. What i was asking you is are you Doing VR dungeons 3 man. with just tank heal and ranged DPS?

Eris

I didn't know there was a class called tank in the game. I know about the Dragon Knight, the Sorcerer, the Nightblade and the Templar. Perhaps you should consider taking one of those classes...

Wifeaggro13

Eris wrote: »

I didn't know there was a class called tank in the game. I know about the Dragon Knight, the Sorcerer, the Nightblade and the Templar. Perhaps you should consider taking one of those classes...

lol your not contributing anythng usefull here but i do enjoy a smart ass comment. well played.

Anastasia

Hearts wrote: »

Theres one thing you should not get mixed up.. A tank is maybe not necessary but a Heavy Armor + Sword and Board is still a very good party member to have.
Not only can they absorb damage, making it easier for the healer, they can also taunt the boss away from the puny light armor pure sorcerer that is doing too much DPS and who will get one shotted / two shotted if attacked (basically me). They also decreases the enemy's armor and spell resistance, allowing DPS to do more damage.
Dont think of the tank as A tank in this game, hes more of a support guy, the guy that keeps the group organized when sh*t could have gone to hell.

Tanks arent useless here, youre saying that people who asks for tank are inexperienced, I might agree on that, but im also going to say that YOU are inexperienced.

---

I will take bets on some of the devs just sitting back and grinning as they watch these first weeks evolve with the players learning what CAN be done ^-^.

Lots of great info in this thread. I like Hearts post the best, esp this:

"Dont think of the tank as A tank in this game, hes more of a support guy, the guy that keeps the group organized when sh*t could have gone to hell."

Perhaps, just perhaps we can step back and take a breath instead of saying Tanks are unneeded in Tamriel and REDEFINE our fabulous, crazy-cool abilities to ALL be support if and when we want to be, OR change it up by being paper tigers for a particular dungeon or a support person who is a walking utility machine with heavy armor who can screw royally with the mobs, allowing the rest of the group to bring it on.

Tankish-types, you ARE needed. The trinity system is not in play or out of play here, its REDEFINED.

The point here is the group COMMUNICATING, the members of said group having owned the reponsibility on the way up while they are learning of how they can use two different bars AND switch up armor sets AND switch out weaps and and and and....almost no end to the variety. IF we communicate, THEN we will vanquish the bosses and the trash.

Damn good stuff here Zenimax. Different enough to make us think a bit. Which I Like.

Thechemicals

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Thechemicals wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Thechemicals wrote: »

I have been able to do these dungeons without dps. Myself and wife play shield tank templars with healing and have had all tanks groups and all tank+1 healer. Dps is not essential since tanks are only using puncture and active blocking (or should be). The rest of the skills are dps based (or should be). Even if you added puncture and 3 defensive skills in your bar- you still have 2 slots and an ultimate for dps. I think dps is less needed than a tank. Everyone does dps through magicka, not everyone can taunt a monster away from someone who gets in trouble. Food for thought.

However, healing is still a requirement in pve and pvp.

you doing VR dungeons? with out DPS?

A tank class is just having puncture and active blocking. I dps with the aedric spear tree through magicka with magicka potions. So does every other tank.

I completely understand perhaps you need to read the entire thread. i know what a tank is its not a class its certain weapon lines and skill lines that create a dynamic of survivability, CC and ability to pull agro. What the thread is saying is none of those things are required. all you need is damage and healing and some CC. What i was asking you is are you Doing VR dungeons 3 man. with just tank heal and ranged DPS?

No i am not.

Wifeaggro13

Anastasia wrote: »

Hearts wrote: »

Theres one thing you should not get mixed up.. A tank is maybe not necessary but a Heavy Armor + Sword and Board is still a very good party member to have.
Not only can they absorb damage, making it easier for the healer, they can also taunt the boss away from the puny light armor pure sorcerer that is doing too much DPS and who will get one shotted / two shotted if attacked (basically me). They also decreases the enemy's armor and spell resistance, allowing DPS to do more damage.
Dont think of the tank as A tank in this game, hes more of a support guy, the guy that keeps the group organized when sh*t could have gone to hell.

Tanks arent useless here, youre saying that people who asks for tank are inexperienced, I might agree on that, but im also going to say that YOU are inexperienced.

---

I will take bets on some of the devs just sitting back and grinning as they watch these first weeks evolve with the players learning what CAN be done ^-^.

Lots of great info in this thread. I like Hearts post the best, esp this:

"Dont think of the tank as A tank in this game, hes more of a support guy, the guy that keeps the group organized when sh*t could have gone to hell."

Perhaps, just perhaps we can step back and take a breath instead of saying Tanks are unneeded in Tamriel and REDEFINE our fabulous, crazy-cool abilities to ALL be support if and when we want to be, OR change it up by being paper tigers for a particular dungeon or a support person who is a walking utility machine with heavy armor who can screw royally with the mobs, allowing the rest of the group to bring it on.

Tankish-types, you ARE needed. The trinity system is not in play or out of play here, its REDEFINED.

The point here is the group COMMUNICATING, the members of said group having owned the reponsibility on the way up while they are learning of how they can use two different bars AND switch up armor sets AND switch out weaps and and and and....almost no end to the variety. IF we communicate, THEN we will vanquish the bosses and the trash.

Damn good stuff here Zenimax. Different enough to make us think a bit. Which I Like.

Unfortunately its not as complex as your describing.its far less dynamic. it is different and its fun for the most part. just very imbalanced VR 1-4 and 6-9 is poorly itemized and the scalability is bad. some of the Vr10 dungeons are far easier then 1-5. lets not blow smoke up the rears of the Dev's. they made a good game yes! and its hella fun . But end game is where the rubber meets the road for longevity. and currently its spinning its wheels with little direction or definition.

Roadrash600

As a full time healer and part time Tank in dungeons, the Trinity is definitely changed. I like it. The tank here is more of the controller. He's the one in the enemy's face dropping debuffs and CC's when needed. and most importantly he's the one with the taunt when some evil baddy decides it's time to make out with the healer. Groups with all dps and no-one managing CC or healer saves makes things much harder.

Than being said, it's not always melee. A lot of boss fights go alot better if the tank stays away. in those cases I jump in and slash for debuff, then get back and pull out the bow. All the action and dynamic play is so much more fun than expecting the tank to hold all aggro and having a game designed where trash mobs kill DPS in 3 hits.

Keiffo

Veakoth wrote: »

You state tanks are not required for any current content, well i'd like to see 3 dps and a healer down Bogdan the Nightflame on hard or normal without a tank. Also you will get a shock when you do craglorn with no tank i guarantee it, so you may as well gear one up now rather than later

I hope this is true, I'm just sharing what I've learned from my experience in the veteran dungeons. I've probably cleared them the most out of all people since I levelled VR1 to VR6 in a balance between Spindle, Fungal and Banished.

Currently there honestly is no need for a tank, if Craglorn changes that then it's a success. I look forward to it.

dnotecmb16_ESO

Keiffo wrote: »

Veakoth wrote: »

You state tanks are not required for any current content, well i'd like to see 3 dps and a healer down Bogdan the Nightflame on hard or normal without a tank. Also you will get a shock when you do craglorn with no tank i guarantee it, so you may as well gear one up now rather than later

I hope this is true, I'm just sharing what I've learned from my experience in the veteran dungeons. I've probably cleared them the most out of all people since I levelled VR1 to VR6 in a balance between Spindle, Fungal and Banished.

Currently there honestly is no need for a tank, if Craglorn changes that then it's a success. I look forward to it.

I'm curious how many times you ran the VR5 dungeons to get to VR6... given that you get you practically no VP per mob kill in them.

Also, a tank is simply a character with high mitigation, whether permanent (heavy armor) or temporary (bone shield). What else they slot on their bar is up to them, but it is one character you aim to have hit the majority of times to reduce the healing required so everyone can focus more on damage, including the "tank".

Keiffo

dnotecmb16_ESO wrote: »

Keiffo wrote: »

Veakoth wrote: »

You state tanks are not required for any current content, well i'd like to see 3 dps and a healer down Bogdan the Nightflame on hard or normal without a tank. Also you will get a shock when you do craglorn with no tank i guarantee it, so you may as well gear one up now rather than later

I hope this is true, I'm just sharing what I've learned from my experience in the veteran dungeons. I've probably cleared them the most out of all people since I levelled VR1 to VR6 in a balance between Spindle, Fungal and Banished.

Currently there honestly is no need for a tank, if Craglorn changes that then it's a success. I look forward to it.

I'm curious how many times you ran the VR5 dungeons to get to VR6... given that you get you practically no VP per mob kill in them.

Also, a tank is simply a character with high mitigation, whether permanent (heavy armor) or temporary (bone shield). What else they slot on their bar is up to them, but it is one character you aim to have hit the majority of times to reduce the healing required so everyone can focus more on damage, including the "tank".

The trash mobs are not the source of VP.

You get 81k VP for clearing all bosses in Banished Cells, 99k VP for clearing all bosses in Spindleclutch, and I haven't yet got the exact number for Fungal but I'll post that here if I go back there, I'm clearing the final 3 dungeons now, 1 is bugged, 2 are pretty easy, no tanks required again.

Xanxarib16_ESO

still this no tank requried BS ... if you had a tank in your group you would do it much faster then you are doing it now with 3 dps... and if you have a heavy armor user in the group that dont use the SnS debuff/taunt you got a dps that does less damage then a tank. if you are dps you go either Light armor or Medium armor, heavy armor dont have the power light or medium armor provides... so again dont listen to Keiffo he's blowing smoke out of he's A**!

Wifeaggro13

Keiffo wrote: »

dnotecmb16_ESO wrote: »

Keiffo wrote: »

Veakoth wrote: »

You state tanks are not required for any current content, well i'd like to see 3 dps and a healer down Bogdan the Nightflame on hard or normal without a tank. Also you will get a shock when you do craglorn with no tank i guarantee it, so you may as well gear one up now rather than later

I hope this is true, I'm just sharing what I've learned from my experience in the veteran dungeons. I've probably cleared them the most out of all people since I levelled VR1 to VR6 in a balance between Spindle, Fungal and Banished.

Currently there honestly is no need for a tank, if Craglorn changes that then it's a success. I look forward to it.

I'm curious how many times you ran the VR5 dungeons to get to VR6... given that you get you practically no VP per mob kill in them.

Also, a tank is simply a character with high mitigation, whether permanent (heavy armor) or temporary (bone shield). What else they slot on their bar is up to them, but it is one character you aim to have hit the majority of times to reduce the healing required so everyone can focus more on damage, including the "tank".

The trash mobs are not the source of VP.

You get 81k VP for clearing all bosses in Banished Cells, 99k VP for clearing all bosses in Spindleclutch, and I haven't yet got the exact number for Fungal but I'll post that here if I go back there, I'm clearing the final 3 dungeons now, 1 is bugged, 2 are pretty easy, no tanks required again.

and the cracks start to show in ZOS end game design .... tooooo bad

Axer

Disagree.

Most of the best dps skills are short range flame destro or DK stuff.

Due to this, even if the bosses are easy enough for non tanks, having a tank that can hold 100% still means faster dps for the whole group.

Yes the tank also needs to deal good dps. But no reason they can't. I deal more dps then most and tank just fine. It's not like theres some kinda crazy mojo that makes having an extra ~35 points in magicka massive changes your dps. It's a 10-20% differnece tops. And class skills are the top dps, so they work just fine iwth a shield. (and a shield isnt needed since you can weapon swap, or use inner fire)

My splits is 14/35 magicka/health. Im OC on magicka and health and average 350+ dps sword n board tanking single target, or 500ish duel wield (which I can also tank fine with on 90% of bosses). (And my biting jabs vs aoe packs can burst WELL over 1000 dps)

And your wrong about several points. Every boss in the game is tauntable. Just they have certain specials that target a random player regardless of agro. There regular attacks will ALWAYS hit me if I taunt.

Though note the taunt isn't 100% guarenteed. It just seems to generate massive hate damage.. But yea only 1 player in my guild can generate enough dps to surpass that, and only with a specific DK skill that seems to also generate hate threat. Otherwise, no other player has pulled from me.

I do agree with the general point that content needs to be hard enough to make tanks viable, but for the most part, ive found that true for the VR dungeons. BC sure, its much easier then the others, but tanks still speed it up imo.

I mean we managed a 11 min run (and average 14-18 mins when not trying)... Seems like im not slowing things down too badly imo doing that.

Maybe the tier 2s are too easy, i dunno yet. I just hit v6, and waiting on others in the guild to catch up so we can try. If it is, then yea make em harder so tanks are viable.

Eris

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Eris wrote: »

I didn't know there was a class called tank in the game. I know about the Dragon Knight, the Sorcerer, the Nightblade and the Templar. Perhaps you should consider taking one of those classes...

lol your not contributing anythng usefull here but i do enjoy a smart ass comment. well played.

I'm just trying to point out that there is a time to break free of the trinity and really this game is a good shot at it. Characters can be so diverse without having to pigeonhole themselves into 1 of 3 roles.

Wifeaggro13

Eris wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Eris wrote: »

I didn't know there was a class called tank in the game. I know about the Dragon Knight, the Sorcerer, the Nightblade and the Templar. Perhaps you should consider taking one of those classes...

lol your not contributing anythng usefull here but i do enjoy a smart ass comment. well played.

I'm just trying to point out that there is a time to break free of the trinity and really this game is a good shot at it. Characters can be so diverse without having to pigeonhole themselves into 1 of 3 roles.

i enjoy the trinity it makes for team work. it was never broken and encouraged friendships and community building. but its just a difference of opinion. we all saw what a trinity less game ended up as . look no further then GW2

Keiffo

Axer wrote: »

Disagree.

Most of the best dps skills are short range flame destro or DK stuff.

Due to this, even if the bosses are easy enough for non tanks, having a tank that can hold 100% still means faster dps for the whole group.

Yes the tank also needs to deal good dps. But no reason they can't. I deal more dps then most and tank just fine. It's not like theres some kinda crazy mojo that makes having an extra ~35 points in magicka massive changes your dps. It's a 10-20% differnece tops. And class skills are the top dps, so they work just fine iwth a shield. (and a shield isnt needed since you can weapon swap, or use inner fire)

My splits is 14/35 magicka/health. Im OC on magicka and health and average 350+ dps sword n board tanking single target, or 500ish duel wield (which I can also tank fine with on 90% of bosses). (And my biting jabs vs aoe packs can burst WELL over 1000 dps)

And your wrong about several points. Every boss in the game is tauntable. Just they have certain specials that target a random player regardless of agro. There regular attacks will ALWAYS hit me if I taunt.

Though note the taunt isn't 100% guarenteed. It just seems to generate massive hate damage.. But yea only 1 player in my guild can generate enough dps to surpass that, and only with a specific DK skill that seems to also generate hate threat. Otherwise, no other player has pulled from me.

I do agree with the general point that content needs to be hard enough to make tanks viable, but for the most part, ive found that true for the VR dungeons. BC sure, its much easier then the others, but tanks still speed it up imo.

I mean we managed a 11 min run (and average 14-18 mins when not trying)... Seems like im not slowing things down too badly imo doing that.

Maybe the tier 2s are too easy, i dunno yet. I just hit v6, and waiting on others in the guild to catch up so we can try. If it is, then yea make em harder so tanks are viable.

Wayrest Sewers is the higher tier equivalent of Banished Cells difficulty wise.

You being so useful in all of the dungeons is one thing, but my general point is that none of the dungeons require a tank at all. There is just a lack of requirement for a tank to be anywhere in the current content.

With a 11 minute clear your group would be able to ditch all taunts, have no tank, you could just straight up DPS and you'd still clear it. Agree? If so, that is the point of this thread.

Clearing without a healer would be a nightmare I'd imagine, but everybody in the game can do DPS. There is just no need to be a tank.

I leave my hopes with Craglorn...

Wifeaggro13

Keiffo wrote: »

Axer wrote: »

Disagree.

Most of the best dps skills are short range flame destro or DK stuff.

Due to this, even if the bosses are easy enough for non tanks, having a tank that can hold 100% still means faster dps for the whole group.

Yes the tank also needs to deal good dps. But no reason they can't. I deal more dps then most and tank just fine. It's not like theres some kinda crazy mojo that makes having an extra ~35 points in magicka massive changes your dps. It's a 10-20% differnece tops. And class skills are the top dps, so they work just fine iwth a shield. (and a shield isnt needed since you can weapon swap, or use inner fire)

My splits is 14/35 magicka/health. Im OC on magicka and health and average 350+ dps sword n board tanking single target, or 500ish duel wield (which I can also tank fine with on 90% of bosses). (And my biting jabs vs aoe packs can burst WELL over 1000 dps)

And your wrong about several points. Every boss in the game is tauntable. Just they have certain specials that target a random player regardless of agro. There regular attacks will ALWAYS hit me if I taunt.

Though note the taunt isn't 100% guarenteed. It just seems to generate massive hate damage.. But yea only 1 player in my guild can generate enough dps to surpass that, and only with a specific DK skill that seems to also generate hate threat. Otherwise, no other player has pulled from me.

I do agree with the general point that content needs to be hard enough to make tanks viable, but for the most part, ive found that true for the VR dungeons. BC sure, its much easier then the others, but tanks still speed it up imo.

I mean we managed a 11 min run (and average 14-18 mins when not trying)... Seems like im not slowing things down too badly imo doing that.

Maybe the tier 2s are too easy, i dunno yet. I just hit v6, and waiting on others in the guild to catch up so we can try. If it is, then yea make em harder so tanks are viable.

Wayrest Sewers is the higher tier equivalent of Banished Cells difficulty wise.

You being so useful in all of the dungeons is one thing, but my general point is that none of the dungeons require a tank at all. There is just a lack of requirement for a tank to be anywhere in the current content.

With a 11 minute clear your group would be able to ditch all taunts, have no tank, you could just straight up DPS and you'd still clear it. Agree? If so, that is the point of this thread.

Clearing without a healer would be a nightmare I'd imagine, but everybody in the game can do DPS. There is just no need to be a tank.

I leave my hopes with Craglorn...

Extremely disheartening. dont reinvent the wheel just make it better. It will be bad should this game eat itself with poor end game and shortsighted vision of group mechanics.

steinernein

The only point that is even remotely relevant in this discussion is whether or not you need a tank to produce the fastest runs. So far our sample size is pretty small. The rest is just semantics.

Innox

This is such a BS post I almost didn't respond. All I am going to say is.. yea if your tank is doing nothing but turtling up behind his shield taunting, then yes, he may be useless. If your DPS is only using light attacks... yes they may be useless. If your healer is watching TV then yes.. they may be useless.

Good players will shine no matter what class or role they play.

Xanxarib16_ESO

1. saying you are dps in heavy armor is complete BS
2. the SnS taunt makes a debuff of 43% armor and spell res on the boss, yes other weapons and classes can make there own 40% armor or spell res reduction on the boss. but guess what they multiple with the SnS 43%
3. light armor and medum armor adds a ton of dps from there passive.
4. yes you can tank in light armor with a armor buff you keep up on your own.
5. yes you can tank without a shield but its less effective and you loose out on the best debuff in the game!


the point is that if you need a person in heavy armor to handle the boss. that person is a tank. the 7% melee power you get from heavy armor 7/7 is crap compared to medium armor melee crit and light armor spell res ignore not to mention all the other passive's you get from Medium and light armor. and if you are in full Heavy armor 7/7 or 5/2 heavy/light you are better of taking the SnS taunt/debuff to increase your own dps and your group's dps not to mention bash is really OP, there is a reason players use the Bash tactic for lvling and in PvP

Axer

Keiffo wrote: »

You being so useful in all of the dungeons is one thing, but my general point is that none of the dungeons require a tank at all. There is just a lack of requirement for a tank to be anywhere in the current content.

With a 11 minute clear your group would be able to ditch all taunts, have no tank, you could just straight up DPS and you'd still clear it. Agree? If so, that is the point of this thread.

Clearing without a healer would be a nightmare I'd imagine, but everybody in the game can do DPS. There is just no need to be a tank.

I leave my hopes with Craglorn...

Sure I agree tanks are 100% "required"

But for them to make the game that hard, with no difficult options, would inevitably result in tons of forums posts
"dungeons are too hard".
And inevitably - they get nerfed and become boring and too easy.

I've seen it happen in many mmos.

So I get the concern, but the lack of a suggestion to fix it is why I responded like that.

My suggestion is to add difficulty settings, with the top one being so hard that doing it without a tank would be consider suicide.

And yea, we did 3 man a BC after someone dc'd at stat, or 2man several bosses when ppl died too far away or DC'd.. So yea, it's definetely easy once you get very experienced at it, but that cant be helped that much.

Also, the taunt in this game lowers armor and spell resistance by -40%.. Thats pretty massive. And I know from experience, rather then just the tooltip:

We did a pug spindleclucth, with only VR1-2 sorcerers (pretty limited dps). First go I went sword and board, spammed my taunt and spear. We almost had it, 10% left and time up.

2nd go I went all out duel wield, spammed my alchemy +spell power/crit/magicka potions and we were more effecient overall, yet wiped at 25%.. The taunt made that much difference, so that evne so my personal dps went up probably 20-40%, the groups droped too much from the lack of the taunt debuff.

So not required? Maybe.
Very usefl? Yea.

I'm sure the best times in craglorn will include tank builds. And given the best times get the best loot. Hard to argue they aren't "required" then. They will be, for the best times at least.

Xanxarib16_ESO

Axer that is my point to.

the SnS taunt/debuff is something you should't give up not when it comes to Group dps. and the shield block is something you should't give up on for the healer can then start to waste mana to dps the boss and not heal party members...

Keiffo just dont know what a "tank" brings in this game, he says we dont need a tank, or better yet tanks are useless.


and i say why make content much hard let it take longer and much more chaotic without a "tank" ??? You can use the god damn same logic with a healer and the dps.

you can do the dungeon without a healer every class should just get there own healing skill, yes it can be done but why even make the effect? the content wont be cleared faster or more easy that way...

you can do the dungeon without dps 4 healers or 4 tanks or a mix of both but again why bother, its not like it will go faster...


see the this post startet with tanks are USELESS, to 3 dps and 1 healer is faster to clear content then 1 tank 2 dps and 1 healer and each time iv told Keiffo why a tank is better then 3 dps, and still he dont listen. so is it with many others in this game. tanks are not just a WoW meatshield, no tanks do damage and buffs the groups damage in this game. get that into your head plz.....

GamePlayer7

My experience has been that there are some encounters that are probably best done with everyone swapping to ranged. I wouldn't say tanks are "useless" by any means, but there are definitely some melee unfriendly situations.

A few dungeon bosses come to mind, also some dark anchor and open world bosses are just easier when kited. Last night 3 manning a dark anchor, the bosses, (two melee fighters), were taken out so easily with the 3 of us swapping to bow. These particular bosses hit like trucks, so keeping them at bay with roots, knock downs, etc., was just a much easier strategy.

My advice would be for melee characters to make sure that they have a ranged weapon option to swap over to, with some ranged class abilities too.

Keiffo

Xanxarib16_ESO wrote: »

Axer that is my point to.

the SnS taunt/debuff is something you should't give up not when it comes to Group dps. and the shield block is something you should't give up on for the healer can then start to waste mana to dps the boss and not heal party members...

Keiffo just dont know what a "tank" brings in this game, he says we dont need a tank, or better yet tanks are useless.


and I say why make content much hard let it take longer and much more chaotic without a "tank" ??? You can use the god damn same logic with a healer and the dps.

you can do the dungeon without a healer every class should just get there own healing skill, yes it can be done but why even make the effect? the content wont be cleared faster or more easy that way...

you can do the dungeon without dps 4 healers or 4 tanks or a mix of both but again why bother, its not like it will go faster...


see the this post startet with tanks are USELESS, to 3 dps and 1 healer is faster to clear content then 1 tank 2 dps and 1 healer and each time iv told Keiffo why a tank is better then 3 dps, and still he dont listen. so is it with many others in this game. tanks are not just a WoW meatshield, no tanks do damage and buffs the groups damage in this game. get that into your head plz.....

I just played through a dungeon with an epic player who was a tank. It was a very good run. I see the DPS boost with the taunt, it's nice. I must have been experiencing too many tanks with bad builds.

The problem I'm having however, on boss fights nobody in the group has to think 'oh god I have aggro, panic time'. As a DPS or healer, I'd like to get killed for taking a hit or two off the boss. That is just not the case unfortunately.

I've read every post in the thread and I agree with the usefulness a tank can bring now, but it needs to be made more public that a tank cannot simply have heavy armour, a taunt and 4 purely defensive skills with zero dps anywhere to be seen. I see that a lot.

I also think the bosses in the current veteran dungeons need buffed a bit just for more fun, because who wants to be able to tank the boss as a DPS with no defensive skills? It just doesn't feel right. Lack of urgency in the dungeons ATM.

It still remains true for me that if I'm trying to join/build a group and the last slot is open, I will recruit a tank or a DPS. Because of the lack of requirement to bring a tank. Just whoever joins first.

I seen some of the bosses in Craglorn through that short 'making of' video they released, they certainly look bigger and badder. Surely those will be the ones that make the DPS and healer say "OH NO AGGRO! I'm DEAD!"

Wifeaggro13

Keiffo wrote: »

Xanxarib16_ESO wrote: »

Axer that is my point to.

the SnS taunt/debuff is something you should't give up not when it comes to Group dps. and the shield block is something you should't give up on for the healer can then start to waste mana to dps the boss and not heal party members...

Keiffo just dont know what a "tank" brings in this game, he says we dont need a tank, or better yet tanks are useless.


and I say why make content much hard let it take longer and much more chaotic without a "tank" ??? You can use the god damn same logic with a healer and the dps.

you can do the dungeon without a healer every class should just get there own healing skill, yes it can be done but why even make the effect? the content wont be cleared faster or more easy that way...

you can do the dungeon without dps 4 healers or 4 tanks or a mix of both but again why bother, its not like it will go faster...


see the this post startet with tanks are USELESS, to 3 dps and 1 healer is faster to clear content then 1 tank 2 dps and 1 healer and each time iv told Keiffo why a tank is better then 3 dps, and still he dont listen. so is it with many others in this game. tanks are not just a WoW meatshield, no tanks do damage and buffs the groups damage in this game. get that into your head plz.....

I just played through a dungeon with an epic player who was a tank. It was a very good run. I see the DPS boost with the taunt, it's nice. I must have been experiencing too many tanks with bad builds.

The problem I'm having however, on boss fights nobody in the group has to think 'oh god I have aggro, panic time'. As a DPS or healer, I'd like to get killed for taking a hit or two off the boss. That is just not the case unfortunately.

I've read every post in the thread and I agree with the usefulness a tank can bring now, but it needs to be made more public that a tank cannot simply have heavy armour, a taunt and 4 purely defensive skills with zero dps anywhere to be seen. I see that a lot.

I also think the bosses in the current veteran dungeons need buffed a bit just for more fun, because who wants to be able to tank the boss as a DPS with no defensive skills? It just doesn't feel right. Lack of urgency in the dungeons ATM.

It still remains true for me that if I'm trying to join/build a group and the last slot is open, I will recruit a tank or a DPS. Because of the lack of requirement to bring a tank. Just whoever joins first.

I seen some of the bosses in Craglorn through that short 'making of' video they released, they certainly look bigger and badder. Surely those will be the ones that make the DPS and healer say "OH NO AGGRO! I'm DEAD!"

I think at the moment this is the huge elephant in the room . You have to have a dedicated healer, you have to have dedicated dps and everyone needs to cc to accomplish these veteran dungeons. But you do not need a defensive damage absorber or agro management removing all need for a tank. This watered down trinity not an expanded or dynamic system. It dances the line of Gw2. It becomes do as much dps avoid puddles and kite. These mechanics are not complex. There are far more dynamic encounters when there iz mezing agro management and mitigating spike damage. Right now the mechanics are 3 ranged dps kite and drop heal puddles. Lets get it moving in a fun challenging direction. Many many people enjoy the tank role lets make it viable and keep the fun action for the dps

steinernein

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

I think at the moment this is the huge elephant in the room . You have to have a dedicated healer, you have to have dedicated dps and everyone needs to cc to accomplish these veteran dungeons. But you do not need a defensive damage absorber or agro management removing all need for a tank. This watered down trinity not an expanded or dynamic system. It dances the line of Gw2. It becomes do as much dps avoid puddles and kite. These mechanics are not complex. There are far more dynamic encounters when there iz mezing agro management and mitigating spike damage. Right now the mechanics are 3 ranged dps kite and drop heal puddles. Lets get it moving in a fun challenging direction. Many many people enjoy the tank role lets make it viable and keep the fun action for the dps

I think you're the one imagining the elephant because there certainly isn't any; you don't need a dedicated healer, you don't need everyone to have CC, you certainly don't need dedicated DPS unless it's a DPS race.

What you do need is a sensible composition for any given fight and until leaderboards release or more people start posting times and set ups the sample size is a bit too small for you to start throwing around the claims that there is an elephant in the room.

You're also constructing a false constraint by saying that under everyone and all conditions people must run XYZ when you should be saying 'optimal groups will have X, Y, and Z. " The former is a constraint which reduces diversity while the latter, while reducing diversity, at least promotes class balance and encourages better mechanics. Unfortunately, it's a bit too early for you to even begin talking about the latter since our sample size is a bit too small.