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Tanks are not required for any current content and slow you down.
Keiffo
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EDIT: For all the non-believers, here is proof you cannot deny.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0ReeteKsvg
Now that your silly comments have been proven wrong, time for you to try and attack something else I said. I'll be ready to make more videos.
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Earlier today I was in the group finder searching for a veteran Banished Cells group to get the achievement I was missing.
After a few minutes, we had 2x DPS, 1x Healer and no tank. Since nobody joined as the 4th slot after few minutes, we decided to just start the dungeon and see if we could manage it with 3. We cleared it super easily, with only 3 people and no tank. We only wiped once on the final boss because one of us wasn't sure how to cleanse the debuff.
Because of this success, we agreed to find a third DPS to fill the 4th slot for the Spindleclutch and Fungal Grotto vet dungeons. Those runs went so much better than any other runs I've been in. We cleared both dungeons very fast, and killed the gargoyle in Spindleclutch in far less time than we would've done with a tank instead of a third DPS. We collected undaunted achievements on the first try of the final bosses. Only me and one other person in the group knew the mechanics of the bosses, and telling the other 2 members was more than enough to clear it first try.
There was never a point in any of the 3 dungeons where we felt we could use a tank. Kiting bosses while doing high DPS is far more valuable than being a low DPS meat shield. Even a healer can keep up in DPS with a tank, and heals are far more useful.
Things to note that are not in a tank's favour in the first 3 dungeons:
Fungal Grotto
The Daedric spider boss is immune to taunts and doesn't do enough damage for it to even matter, meaning a tank is just a low DPS person who is tagging along.
The second last boss cannot be fought in melee range, making tanking options limited, but again, no need for a tank as the tactic is to run away from him when you have aggro.
The final boss often cannot be fought in melee range as she stands on her dark circle AoE a lot. Ranged tanking is viable, but it's hardly worth the tiny amount of defensive bonuses given. A third dps is still a better option here.
Spindleclutch
The Gargoyle in Spindleclutch is arguably the hardest boss in the first 3 veteran dungeons, and having a tank there instead of a third DPS lowers your chances of killing it on time (the boss is a DPS race) it's easier for one of the DPS characters (ranged preferably) to use the undaunted ranged taunt and then block power attacks or stealth out of them, or buff their armour with one of the many skills available.
Praxin sends 3 claws out from under him making it harder for melee tanks to dodge them. He also casts the ring on a random player, if it's the melee tank, he can often get stuck on the stairs and die by touching the wall of the ring.
The second last boss has a very very powerful heavy attack and it's a great idea to kite him , having no tank at all.
Banished Cells
The final boss teleports around a lot, making melee tanks, and well any melee class less effective.
The first boss sends fire out from under his feet, making it very hard for melee tanks to dodge.
The giant Daedroth can be kited easy, and it's much faster to have a third dps in there. No need for any form of tank or even any defensive utility.
Now I'm not a tank player, but judging from the time it takes to find a tank for any VR dungeon compared to DPS + healer recruitment times it would seem people dislike tanking. With good reason too.
I like the way this game really doesn't put every player's character into just one role. I personally like DPS with defensive utility. (I soloed a few veteran dungeon bosses with stealth armor buff and lifesteal utility) I've seen DKs solo veteran dungeon bosses with a bow and very little effort in whatever it is they do.
But really, in every situation a straight up tank player slows your group down. A DPS with some defensive utility or synergy oppertunities (Bone shield is EPIC) and a healer who also has defensive utility or dps skills is far more effective for everything than having a tank.
Edited by Keiffo on May 2, 2014 2:26PM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0ReeteKsvgNow that your silly comments have been proven wrong, time for you to try and attack something else I said. I'll be ready to make more videos.
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Earlier today I was in the group finder searching for a veteran Banished Cells group to get the achievement I was missing.
After a few minutes, we had 2x DPS, 1x Healer and no tank. Since nobody joined as the 4th slot after few minutes, we decided to just start the dungeon and see if we could manage it with 3. We cleared it super easily, with only 3 people and no tank. We only wiped once on the final boss because one of us wasn't sure how to cleanse the debuff.
Because of this success, we agreed to find a third DPS to fill the 4th slot for the Spindleclutch and Fungal Grotto vet dungeons. Those runs went so much better than any other runs I've been in. We cleared both dungeons very fast, and killed the gargoyle in Spindleclutch in far less time than we would've done with a tank instead of a third DPS. We collected undaunted achievements on the first try of the final bosses. Only me and one other person in the group knew the mechanics of the bosses, and telling the other 2 members was more than enough to clear it first try.
There was never a point in any of the 3 dungeons where we felt we could use a tank. Kiting bosses while doing high DPS is far more valuable than being a low DPS meat shield. Even a healer can keep up in DPS with a tank, and heals are far more useful.
Things to note that are not in a tank's favour in the first 3 dungeons:
Fungal Grotto
The Daedric spider boss is immune to taunts and doesn't do enough damage for it to even matter, meaning a tank is just a low DPS person who is tagging along.
The second last boss cannot be fought in melee range, making tanking options limited, but again, no need for a tank as the tactic is to run away from him when you have aggro.
The final boss often cannot be fought in melee range as she stands on her dark circle AoE a lot. Ranged tanking is viable, but it's hardly worth the tiny amount of defensive bonuses given. A third dps is still a better option here.
Spindleclutch
The Gargoyle in Spindleclutch is arguably the hardest boss in the first 3 veteran dungeons, and having a tank there instead of a third DPS lowers your chances of killing it on time (the boss is a DPS race) it's easier for one of the DPS characters (ranged preferably) to use the undaunted ranged taunt and then block power attacks or stealth out of them, or buff their armour with one of the many skills available.
Praxin sends 3 claws out from under him making it harder for melee tanks to dodge them. He also casts the ring on a random player, if it's the melee tank, he can often get stuck on the stairs and die by touching the wall of the ring.
The second last boss has a very very powerful heavy attack and it's a great idea to kite him , having no tank at all.
Banished Cells
The final boss teleports around a lot, making melee tanks, and well any melee class less effective.
The first boss sends fire out from under his feet, making it very hard for melee tanks to dodge.
The giant Daedroth can be kited easy, and it's much faster to have a third dps in there. No need for any form of tank or even any defensive utility.
Now I'm not a tank player, but judging from the time it takes to find a tank for any VR dungeon compared to DPS + healer recruitment times it would seem people dislike tanking. With good reason too.
I like the way this game really doesn't put every player's character into just one role. I personally like DPS with defensive utility. (I soloed a few veteran dungeon bosses with stealth armor buff and lifesteal utility) I've seen DKs solo veteran dungeon bosses with a bow and very little effort in whatever it is they do.
But really, in every situation a straight up tank player slows your group down. A DPS with some defensive utility or synergy oppertunities (Bone shield is EPIC) and a healer who also has defensive utility or dps skills is far more effective for everything than having a tank.
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rdfarley89✭✭✭I play a tank on my DK and heals on my sorc, and I agree with this. I have cleared those 3 dungeons and the second tier on my sorc and we just took 3 dps. On top of that I heal about 75% of the time and the rest toss out damage spells or use my staff (I enchant it with magicka absorb to regen magicka). So yeah the thing about this game is that the "holy trinity" is unnecessary, and I like it.7 -
Keiffo✭✭✭rdfarley89 wrote: »I play a tank on my DK and heals on my sorc, and I agree with this. I have cleared those 3 dungeons and the second tier on my sorc and we just took 3 dps. On top of that I heal about 75% of the time and the rest toss out damage spells or use my staff (I enchant it with magicka absorb to regen magicka). So yeah the thing about this game is that the "holy trinity" is unnecessary, and I like it.
I like it too, and I have high hopes for Craglorn if it will require people to really come up with amazing synergy tactics and interchangeable roles.1 -
crusabella✭✭I haven't done one of these dungeons yet but I'm relieved to hear there that flexible. One question though, why do I constantly here shouting for tanks for them? Is that just inexperienced players or what?0 -
Keiffo✭✭✭crusabella wrote: »I haven't done one of these dungeons yet but I'm relieved to hear there that flexible. One question though, why do I constantly here shouting for tanks for them? Is that just inexperienced players or what?
Yes those shouts are just from inexperienced players.
I was one of them, at VR1 I was shouting for a last slot tank, assuming this game would be like any other and before learning just how flexible everything is. There should be no such thing as a straight up tank only character in a group.
If you have a guy in heavy armour with a taunt, it might make some things a little easier (slightly less healing to do).
But from what I've seen the taunts should mostly be a utility to save somebody who is taking a bit too much damage for them to handle or used by the one person who might have heavy armour OR a nice defensive utility to take on heavy hits fro a very specific boss. I've done all 3 VR1-5 dungeons about 40 times in total now (I do it for the VP, good VP/hour in those) and every now and again, I see somebody do something new and I go "wow, that's pretty sweet, I'll add that to my ever expanding list of valid tactics".
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Wifeaggro13✭✭✭✭✭
✭thats pretty disheartening . what if a player does want to play DPS or heals. i enjoy tanking in other MMO's more to consider when my free 30 days comes up. if i wanted to play GW2 mechanics i would be playing it. this is pretty shabby . combine it with the VR dungeons being two tiers 5 and 10 . it will hold little longevity considering your forced to play your first chr through all factions. pretty much removes a persons motivation to play an alt. No tanks required = no sub for me unfortunately i enjoy that role.Edited by Wifeaggro13 on April 24, 2014 1:04AM5 -
Comaetilico✭✭✭done with and withut tank... my conclusion is:
can be done without tank but it's much easier if you get one (that know what his job actualy is...)
the time you loose clearing trash is minimal... since 2 dps can explode those mob quite fast if they are specced for aoe... and tank can double as an aoe dps during those trash since holding the mobs in those situation does not require shield... but lot of aoe CC
during boss you loose some dps... but we cleared dps run boss without problems even with a dedicated tank and healer... and having the boss stick to the tank all the time make things much easier for all (especialy for boss that randomly target someone for spike damage... if you can't focus the attention of the boss on a single target you can have him randomly hit someone than turning to him for regular attacks because he just stealed the aggro... ) and this cut dps loss for people having to kite or pop up defensive skill instead of doing their job as dps...
the conclusion is that tanking in this game does not traslate in being the guy with lot of armor that simply reduce to the minimum the damage taken... because he only need one skill to hold aggro of whatever comes... tank are more complex and they mix damaging, CC and other form of control... they don't simply stay put taking hit in their face...8 -
Hadria✭✭✭✭you're not really suppose to think of them as tanks in this game. Everyone is doing everything!6 -
BKTHNDR✭✭✭As someone said above, the trinity isn't necessary. As long as every one in the group plays offensively and defensively when neccessary, you should have no problem clearing out any dungeon.2 -
Varivox9✭✭✭I'm only lvl 36 atm and I have to agree.... I've run almost every dungeon and in every one, the best groups were 1 healer/dps hybrid and 3 dps. I'm trying a tank NB build atm, and I feel nerfed and useless.
GW2, while it had its' moments, suffered from this too. EVERYONE was dps and it turned dungeons into a FFA of mediocrity.
I'm hoping I'll disagree with you as I hit vet ranks, but so far it's not looking good...2 -
rdfarley89✭✭✭I disliked GW2 as well, this is totally different. The tank is definitely a useful utility, as others have said. Can hold aggro on the boss instead of kind of just kiting him around. BUT having a dps in heavy armor is just as good as a tank, most times its me and my rl friend who rolls DK heavy armor with 2h and a bow, and we pickup two others (normally a DK in leather and dual wielding and another guy who rolls templar in cloth with staves, one offensive staff and one resto staff) and we do wonderful and for the most part my DK dps friend holds the aggro and its funny because he is like clearly opposed to being a tank but...he pretty much is one, I just don't tell him that LOL. But yeah it is nothing like GW2 running around like a chicken with your head cut off hoping that there is a healing turret nearby lol. If you want to ank, you can, you want to be "damage" (I say use the word dps lightly because I don't think the attacks in this game will all really add up to a good DPS as its based off your pools instead of cooldowns) go for it, you want to heal definitely go for it. There is room in a 4 man group for all utility types, and I guarantee when/if you get into Craglorn and do 12 man trials a tank will more than likely be needed for that, its hardcore content specifically tuned for the MMO crowd.
Also you are not "forced" to play through the other factions zones. You CAN if you want to quest instead of just craft and stand around spamming for groups for dungeons, trials, and Craglorn. From what I understand there is no power or skill increase as you go through veteran ranks though I could be wrong. I am not even sure if you get skyshards when going back through the other factions zones.0 -
Keiffo✭✭✭rdfarley89 wrote: »I disliked GW2 as well, this is totally different. The tank is definitely a useful utility, as others have said. Can hold aggro on the boss instead of kind of just kiting him around. BUT having a dps in heavy armor is just as good as a tank, most times its me and my rl friend who rolls DK heavy armor with 2h and a bow, and we pickup two others (normally a DK in leather and dual wielding and another guy who rolls templar in cloth with staves, one offensive staff and one resto staff) and we do wonderful and for the most part my DK dps friend holds the aggro and its funny because he is like clearly opposed to being a tank but...he pretty much is one, I just don't tell him that LOL. But yeah it is nothing like GW2 running around like a chicken with your head cut off hoping that there is a healing turret nearby lol. If you want to ank, you can, you want to be "damage" (I say use the word dps lightly because I don't think the attacks in this game will all really add up to a good DPS as its based off your pools instead of cooldowns) go for it, you want to heal definitely go for it. There is room in a 4 man group for all utility types, and I guarantee when/if you get into Craglorn and do 12 man trials a tank will more than likely be needed for that, its hardcore content specifically tuned for the MMO crowd.
Also you are not "forced" to play through the other factions zones. You CAN if you want to quest instead of just craft and stand around spamming for groups for dungeons, trials, and Craglorn. From what I understand there is no power or skill increase as you go through veteran ranks though I could be wrong. I am not even sure if you get skyshards when going back through the other factions zones.
You do get to collect all of the skyshards from every faction.
Also for every veteran level gained, you gain 10 Mag/HP/Sta.
The gear also gets stronger per veteran level, and VR10 gear is far better than VR1 gear, but compareing VR1 to VR2 and VR3 kinda 'meh' little bonus.
Anyways, yes taunts are a great utility matched with heavy armor and overcharge HP.
What I'm looking for though, is content that makes everybody go "wow, we really need some heavy armour guys in here with a taunt". Because right now the veteran dungeons lack any requirement for a traditional tank, and it sometimes slows you down to have said tank, instead of an extra DPS (looking at all DPS races where tanking is not required, for some reason)
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Phranq✭✭✭This thread makes me want to cry, hehe. I have put all my time so far into playing a heavy armor, sword and board, dk tank and I've been thinking, sure it kindof sucks leveling up, but I will be needed when I get to high level dungeons... *sigh*9
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Varivox9✭✭✭This thread makes me want to cry, hehe. I have put all my time so far into playing a heavy armor, sword and board, dk tank and I've been thinking, sure it kindof sucks leveling up, but I will be needed when I get to high level dungeons... *sigh*
Agreed. The sad part is that I'm one of those crazy people that absolutely loves to tank in every MMO and the more people I talk to that are vet1-10, the more disheartened I am...3 -
Keiffo✭✭✭This thread makes me want to cry, hehe. I have put all my time so far into playing a heavy armor, sword and board, dk tank and I've been thinking, sure it kindof sucks leveling up, but I will be needed when I get to high level dungeons... *sigh*
I hope it has something to do with the veteran dungeons not being anywhere near as difficult as Craglorn will be. If solid tanks / taunts / defensive utility is not required much in Craglorn, then it will be an epic failure and unfortunate waste of time for people who levelled up tank skills.
There is one thing I've been trying to figure out, and that's what the heavy armor does for people when there are so many defensive utility skills like Bone Shield out there (my shadow cloak adds 1,750 armor and resistance for 4 seconds, and I can spam it a lot). Bone Shield puts your armor and magic resistance into overcharged for 6 seconds, and grants all of your allies the ability to press X for a 60% of their maximum HP shield.
Now with skills like that, why not just have everybody use light armor for more spammable spells, or medium armor for the 21% extra crit rate and stamina regen.
As a Nightblade with siphoning attacks, I literally have infinite magicka and stamina. I can spam bone shield constantly and either tank things myself if I happen to have aggro, or the person with aggro can press X and gain big shields, meaning if they have heavy armour, it's wasted.
I haven't played all the classes, but I assume every class has skills that boost armor/resistance for a few seconds. Everything in the game just seems points to the idea that heavy armour melee tanks a bit of a waste of time.
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rdfarley89✭✭✭This thread makes me want to cry, hehe. I have put all my time so far into playing a heavy armor, sword and board, dk tank and I've been thinking, sure it kindof sucks leveling up, but I will be needed when I get to high level dungeons... *sigh*
I have been playing a DK sword and board and as I said before I fully agree with this thread. I also don't have any trouble leveling, I could level up fairly quickly if I wanted to but I make it a goal to explore every single nook and cranny lol. Anyway I hate to hear that you feel that way and are having trouble but, do not feel too badly about it as I said tanks are a VERY useful utility, but not 100% needed. I think that makes it easier for people to group when they cannot find a tank or do not have a tank friend.
Quick tip, max out shield bash passives, and use shield bash a loit, it will tear things up, too bad they will probably nerf it at some point
Edited by rdfarley89 on April 24, 2014 2:57AM0 -
reggielee✭✭✭✭Its early days yet, nerfs are bound to happen and different builds will have to scramble to fill the void. What works today will prob not be viable 3mths from nowMama always said the fastest way to a man's heart is through his chest.0 -
rdfarley89✭✭✭Its early days yet, nerfs are bound to happen and different builds will have to scramble to fill the void. What works today will prob not be viable 3mths from now
Yep and it sucks because a lot of people just spam shield bash, especially pvpers. Then you have me who I know it does A LOT of damage yet I use it when needed and don't just spam it. But the people that spam it as their main ability will ruin it and bring on the nerfs. Especially with pvp because that's where you get people complaining about every ability that is even slightly OP.
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Phranq✭✭✭I don't really pvp .. and I am sure I will have less trouble once I get dragon blood, but atm I am level 16 and just got to Grahtwood finding it *Very* difficult to solo just 2 things at once, but I am crafting a new set of steel armor and hopefully things will soon get better. I am just a few levels shy in draconic power to pick up dragon blood.Edited by Phranq on April 24, 2014 3:23AM1
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Eccentric✭✭✭Anyone can a tank, dps or healer in this game. All you need to do is swap out the skills on your bar and maybe some gearpieces if needed. Most people will have plenty of skillpoints to be able to play multiple roles.
I mean, if everyone in the party has the ability to throw a heal or swap to restostaff, is it really any need for a designated healer?
Different setups and combinations is a good thing. I am kinda tired of MMOs always telling me to bring set amount of tanks, healers and dps to an event or dungeon. In ESO everyone can be anything and you can combine any tank-, dps- and healing-abilities, it is simply great!
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Varivox9✭✭✭Anyone can a tank, dps or healer in this game. All you need to do is swap out the skills on your bar and maybe some gearpieces if needed. Most people will have plenty of skillpoints to be able to play multiple roles.
I mean, if everyone in the party has the ability to throw a heal or swap to restostaff, is it really any need for a designated healer?
Different setups and combinations is a good thing. I am kinda tired of MMOs always telling me to bring set amount of tanks, healers and dps to an event or dungeon. In ESO everyone can be anything and you can combine any tank-, dps- and healing-abilities, it is simply great!
I agree that the different set ups are great, but I want a sort of order to it all. I just got done in a dungeon with a tank that had no agro abilities, 2 hander, and the only "tank" ability it had was bound armour, no CC either. Didn't use cleave for a shield either. So me, as a squishy not tank, who was falsely relying on a tank of some sort, stole agro very easily and ended up being more of a tank than the tank. Our "tank" was a dps more than anything else.
I think that some fights shouldn't need a tank, but as it stands, I don't see why tanks even exist...0 -
MasterSpatula✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Well, that's good, 'cause it sure is hard to tank some of these huge groups of mobs. Can't block in four directions at once. Taunts last for maybe two hits. Anyone can tank a little, but I've really found it quite hard to be a full-on tank."A probable impossibility is preferable to an improbable possibility." - Aristotle0 -
Eccentric✭✭✭Varivox9, I am sad to hear about your experience with this tank.
But with the right combination of talents, even he could tank as a 2-hander. He only need to use the Inner Fire taunt from Undaunted and put Boneshield, Immovable or even Evasion on the bar to do decent as a tank(and yeah, the absorb from Brawler is also alright). It is all a matter of setup, you don't really need designated tank or healer, it all comes down to what the group decide to do.
It is a lot easier to put together a group with friends than randoms though, I totally agree.0 -
Eccentric✭✭✭MasterSpatula wrote: »Taunts last for maybe two hits.
Both Puncture and Inner Fire taunts for 15 seconds. Some bosses are immune to taunt though.
Edited by Eccentric on April 24, 2014 5:56AM0 -
Varivox9✭✭✭Varivox9, I am sad to hear about your experience with this tank.
But with the right combination of talents, even he could tank as a 2-hander. He only need to use the Inner Fire taunt from Undaunted and put Boneshield, Immovable or even Evasion on the bar to do decent as a tank(and yeah, the absorb from Brawler is also alright). It is all a matter of setup, you don't really need designated tank or healer, it all comes down to what the group decide to do.
It is a lot easier to put together a group with friends than randoms though, I totally agree.
I know people can tank as a 2hander. I've had tanks that have done just as you said before (minus the bone shield) and done well in their role. What my problem with the current set up is the same issue I had with GW2. Dungeons are not at all social. Everyone is everything so it all becomes a giant FFA. I like the flexibility of it all, but not at the cost of having no real roles other than the "don't die" role.
Maybe it's just me, but ESO suffers from the same issue GW2 had imo. No need for roles removes a lot of the enjoyment imo. Especially when, like in GW2, everyone just needs a lot of dps and JUST enough survival to out dps everything. Almost every boss I've seen is easily kited and that means I have no "wow" moments with any of the bosses. It loses too much not having an actual need for those roles.
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Eccentric✭✭✭Don't get me wrong, 1H+shield is still superior to 2-hand tanking imo.
The OP of this thread only mentioned some of the bosses in the 3 lowest dungeons and you cannot overcome all of the bosses without a decent tank. Tbh, I dont think the last boss in Fungal Grotto should be on this list, cause she hits like truck with her ranged attack and it is hard to survive that without any defensives.
I think a lot of people have their own presumption of how the game is, but then figure the game is different from what they thought. Unfortunatly there is people who have played other MMOs who expect this to be some sort of copy, only a better version, while others believe this should be a TES:6. But ESO is rather unique in its own way.
I guess it also might be hard for some to move from a "tag your target portrait and rotate your abilities"-combat to a Action Combat-system, like you see in TERA, Neverwinter and now ESO.0 -
driosketch✭✭✭✭✭
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I like ESO's combat system, but boss/elite immunities are the biggest BS thing about it. Lack of cc abilities against bosses is the main reason tanks are largely ineffective. It's all about dps and group support.MasterSpatula wrote: »Taunts last for maybe two hits.
Both Puncture and Inner Fire taunts for 15 seconds. Some bosses are immune to taunt though.Main: Drio Azul ~ DC, Redguard, Healer/Magicka Templar ~ NA-PC
●The Psijic Order●The Sidekick Order●Great House Hlaalu●Bal-Busters●2 -
Eccentric✭✭✭driosketch wrote: »
I like ESO's combat system, but boss/elite immunities are the biggest BS thing about it. Lack of cc abilities against bosses is the main reason tanks are largely ineffective. It's all about dps and group support.MasterSpatula wrote: »Taunts last for maybe two hits.
Both Puncture and Inner Fire taunts for 15 seconds. Some bosses are immune to taunt though.
This is the very essence in a Action Combat game. Instead of having an elite or boss locked onto a tank like most MMOs, they will telegraph their movement and your party would have to dodge and avoid the attacks. The tank can still either CC adds and debuff hostiles, or swap to 2nd skillset and do dps/heal/support.
Imho, this is the best way to play. If you don't like it, you should probably play another game, with a combat system more in line with what you like.
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