This game DOES NOT need an auction house....

Maestro_Sartori

Tiyamel wrote: »

Sick of seeing all the negative threads out there bombarding the forums about how we want a global auction house, personally i am very happy with the current system, it needs a few refinements granted, but as it stands i feel it is a better system than most MMO's out there, i understand some people find it hard to find a good trading guild, but once you find it, it works .

If guildmasters keep on top of their members and actively eject suspected RMT members, even better.

Global auction houses lead to every item in game being made available to everybody, a prime target for RMT activity who then farm highly sought after materials and gear, then undercut everyone just to sell their goods and then pass that gold for a fee on to a few lazy players that cannot or will not try to earn it in game for themselves, the guild store system promotes smaller tighter communities and makes some commodities what they should be, damn hard to find and rightly so, i don't want to be flooded with epic gear for pennies, i want to earn it the hard way.

Having 5 guilds means you can switch and swap until you find what works for you, i have 4 trading guilds and 1 social, never had a problem shifting stuff through them, but i did have to go through a few guilds until i found what worked for me.

I have played many dumbed down MMO's that pander to the uber casual gamer that doesn't want to do anything themselves and i hope ESO doesn't end up the same way.

Constructive comments please, no flaming, baiting, or trolling, its just my opinion.

Yes it does need an auction house, trading guild stores are a joke..

Tandor

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

Most of us disagree

Are you referring to the voices in your head, or have you asked everyone?

(Strongly agree with OP.)

I imagine he's referring to the majority opinion being expressed whenever the topic is discussed here.

daneyulebub17_ESO

rawne1980b16_ESO wrote: »

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

Then go play Amazon.

I'm hoping this was a joke?

Amazon is a shopping website, not a game.

Uh... thanks for clearing that up. <whoosh>

MysticAura

Drachenfier wrote: »

MysticAura wrote: »

Drachenfier wrote: »

The OP and those like him want to keep prices high so they can make money off of their fellow players. When markets are small and centralized, its hard for supply to exceed demand, because the player base doesn't have access to the entire supply of goods out there, so people like the OP and those that support him can continue to charge higher prices for their useless crap, mainly their useless crafted crap.

Shame on you, IMO. Every game needs a global or at least faction wide AH for a healthy and vibrant economy.

That is not true at all. Why would anyone want crap? They simply wouldn't buy if it was crap. If it was actually priced above what the person felt it was worth, they wouldn't buy. People are not forced to buy anything. I'm sorry but undercutting and market killing is what breaks economy it doesn't make it. I do not mean reasonable pricing, I mean selling below cost and flooding. Which equals devaluing.

With the current guild system if one guild was doing what you say you hate, you could choose not to buy, or to join another guild who isn't doing it. Or you could say no all together and make or find things yourself.

Prices are regulated by supply and demand in a broad economic model. If tons of people are selling the Blue Chestplate of Awesomeness, the only way people like you can continue to demand a high price for it is if its only available in a limited market. You make it obvious by your complaints about "undercutting", which you've made several times, that you have no interest in a fair market, only one where you can continue to gouge your fellow players.

Wrong, my comments are geared towards keeping a fair market. Not an oversaturated one where nothing has value. People will farm your valuable piece, and dump every single one on the market. You point out supply and demand but only see one part of it. You actually argue my own point with half what you say. Considering I do not sell to avoid this whole situation, I do not gouge anyone, nor have I ever, nor would I ever. I also wouldn't charge 2 gold for something worth 10 just to compete with people who don't care about the market at all.

Over pricing doesn't work in any market as most aren't dumb enough to pay more than somethings value. People are more than happy to pay less than something is worth, regardless of how it effects the market as a whole. People will charge less than something is worth in order to sell their item first. Please understand what I'm saying before arguing it. Don't accuse me of ridiculous things that couldn't be further from the truth.

Desdemonte

lol http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/78025/this-game-needs-an-auction-house#latest

Tieberion

This game DOES need a universal or Factional AH.

Pristia

While I agree that we do not need an auction house, I do think something needs to be done, personally, I like the way UO and DAoC had merchants the players could purchase to sell there stuff, I don't know how it would work without housing, but I think that would be a good way to go, you wouldnt be able to see everything that is for sell in one place, but you could visit different merchants to see what was for sale and how much.

Drachenfier

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

Gohlar wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

A global AH is Wal-Mart.

No, it's Amazon.

Amazon is good.

Then go play Amazon.

I prefer playing an MMO, where people communicate to get goods, craft to get goods, explore and grind and group to get goods----

I've done that in every game that had an AH.

Amazing, huh

Drachenfier

MysticAura wrote: »

Drachenfier wrote: »

MysticAura wrote: »

Drachenfier wrote: »

The OP and those like him want to keep prices high so they can make money off of their fellow players. When markets are small and centralized, its hard for supply to exceed demand, because the player base doesn't have access to the entire supply of goods out there, so people like the OP and those that support him can continue to charge higher prices for their useless crap, mainly their useless crafted crap.

Shame on you, IMO. Every game needs a global or at least faction wide AH for a healthy and vibrant economy.

That is not true at all. Why would anyone want crap? They simply wouldn't buy if it was crap. If it was actually priced above what the person felt it was worth, they wouldn't buy. People are not forced to buy anything. I'm sorry but undercutting and market killing is what breaks economy it doesn't make it. I do not mean reasonable pricing, I mean selling below cost and flooding. Which equals devaluing.

With the current guild system if one guild was doing what you say you hate, you could choose not to buy, or to join another guild who isn't doing it. Or you could say no all together and make or find things yourself.

Prices are regulated by supply and demand in a broad economic model. If tons of people are selling the Blue Chestplate of Awesomeness, the only way people like you can continue to demand a high price for it is if its only available in a limited market. You make it obvious by your complaints about "undercutting", which you've made several times, that you have no interest in a fair market, only one where you can continue to gouge your fellow players.

Wrong, my comments are geared towards keeping a fair market. Not an oversaturated one where nothing has value. People will farm your valuable piece, and dump every single one on the market. You point out supply and demand but only see one part of it. You actually argue my own point with half what you say. Considering I do not sell to avoid this whole situation, I do not gouge anyone, nor have I ever, nor would I ever. I also wouldn't charge 2 gold for something worth 10 just to compete with people who don't care about the market at all.

Over pricing doesn't work in any market as most aren't dumb enough to pay more than somethings value. People are more than happy to pay less than something is worth, regardless of how it effects the market as a whole. People will charge less than something is worth in order to sell their item first. Please understand what I'm saying before arguing it. Don't accuse me of ridiculous things that couldn't be further from the truth.

By definition, a fair market is one where all consumers have access to all items and all prices. Limited centralized markets are NOT fair markets. "Oversaturated where nothing has value" is how supply and demand works in all markets. If you try to sell 500 Imperial Motifs in your guild store, it will be oversaturated and the price will drop. This is how it works, no matter how much you want to deny it. Everything you say points to you wanting to keep prices high so you can continue to overcharge players for stuff that is overly abundant in the world outside of your little market shell.

You keep repeating exactly what I'm accusing you of, so don't get upset when I accuse you of it. One more time - when supply exceeds demand, prices drop. By limiting the supply you can artificially inflate the prices, which is exactly what you keep describing.

Bardorion

I agree the game should not have AH if you so wish. But I will not play the game without AH, I know one player more or less, but the game has one player less.

Glurin

Drachenfier wrote: »

MysticAura wrote: »

Drachenfier wrote: »

MysticAura wrote: »

Drachenfier wrote: »

The OP and those like him want to keep prices high so they can make money off of their fellow players. When markets are small and centralized, its hard for supply to exceed demand, because the player base doesn't have access to the entire supply of goods out there, so people like the OP and those that support him can continue to charge higher prices for their useless crap, mainly their useless crafted crap.

Shame on you, IMO. Every game needs a global or at least faction wide AH for a healthy and vibrant economy.

That is not true at all. Why would anyone want crap? They simply wouldn't buy if it was crap. If it was actually priced above what the person felt it was worth, they wouldn't buy. People are not forced to buy anything. I'm sorry but undercutting and market killing is what breaks economy it doesn't make it. I do not mean reasonable pricing, I mean selling below cost and flooding. Which equals devaluing.

With the current guild system if one guild was doing what you say you hate, you could choose not to buy, or to join another guild who isn't doing it. Or you could say no all together and make or find things yourself.

Prices are regulated by supply and demand in a broad economic model. If tons of people are selling the Blue Chestplate of Awesomeness, the only way people like you can continue to demand a high price for it is if its only available in a limited market. You make it obvious by your complaints about "undercutting", which you've made several times, that you have no interest in a fair market, only one where you can continue to gouge your fellow players.

Wrong, my comments are geared towards keeping a fair market. Not an oversaturated one where nothing has value. People will farm your valuable piece, and dump every single one on the market. You point out supply and demand but only see one part of it. You actually argue my own point with half what you say. Considering I do not sell to avoid this whole situation, I do not gouge anyone, nor have I ever, nor would I ever. I also wouldn't charge 2 gold for something worth 10 just to compete with people who don't care about the market at all.

Over pricing doesn't work in any market as most aren't dumb enough to pay more than somethings value. People are more than happy to pay less than something is worth, regardless of how it effects the market as a whole. People will charge less than something is worth in order to sell their item first. Please understand what I'm saying before arguing it. Don't accuse me of ridiculous things that couldn't be further from the truth.

By definition, a fair market is one where all consumers have access to all items and all prices. Limited centralized markets are NOT fair markets. "Oversaturated where nothing has value" is how supply and demand works in all markets. If you try to sell 500 Imperial Motifs in your guild store, it will be oversaturated and the price will drop. This is how it works, no matter how much you want to deny it. Everything you say points to you wanting to keep prices high so you can continue to overcharge players for stuff that is overly abundant in the world outside of your little market shell.

You keep repeating exactly what I'm accusing you of, so don't get upset when I accuse you of it. One more time - when supply exceeds demand, prices drop. By limiting the supply you can artificially inflate the prices, which is exactly what you keep describing.

Unfortunately, a global AH completely removes your option to shop around. If the market is over-saturated with what you're selling, you can't go to another one and sell your wares for a better price. Which in turn would fill a need in that particular market. On the buyer side, it's much, much easier for gold farmers to control the prices, especially on things like basic crafting mats. (WoW copper bars for five gold each anyone?)

If you're leveling your crafting skill, you've only got two options under a global AH system. Pay insanely high prices for your basics or farm it yourself. ESO went with a sort of one-two punch solution on this particular front. First, multiple markets means you can shop around a bit and find one you can afford. Second, you can harvest anything whether you've got the associated crafting skill or not, meaning a lot more people are able to farm the resource and increase supply.

daneyulebub17_ESO

Drachenfier wrote: »

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

Gohlar wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

A global AH is Wal-Mart.

No, it's Amazon.

Amazon is good.

Then go play Amazon.

I prefer playing an MMO, where people communicate to get goods, craft to get goods, explore and grind and group to get goods----

I've done that in every game that had an AH.

Amazing, huh

Uh, huh. Which ones? As much as you may think otherwise, I bet they all suffered from the exact things people are trying to avoid by planting an AH in this game.

People aren't advocating no AH because we just want to make it harder to get stuff. We've seen how it can contribute to the antithesis of what MMOs aspire to be. Easier and "more convenient" are not always compatible with good, engaging, long-term gameplay.

Drachenfier

Glurin wrote: »

Drachenfier wrote: »

MysticAura wrote: »

Drachenfier wrote: »

MysticAura wrote: »

Drachenfier wrote: »

The OP and those like him want to keep prices high so they can make money off of their fellow players. When markets are small and centralized, its hard for supply to exceed demand, because the player base doesn't have access to the entire supply of goods out there, so people like the OP and those that support him can continue to charge higher prices for their useless crap, mainly their useless crafted crap.

Shame on you, IMO. Every game needs a global or at least faction wide AH for a healthy and vibrant economy.

That is not true at all. Why would anyone want crap? They simply wouldn't buy if it was crap. If it was actually priced above what the person felt it was worth, they wouldn't buy. People are not forced to buy anything. I'm sorry but undercutting and market killing is what breaks economy it doesn't make it. I do not mean reasonable pricing, I mean selling below cost and flooding. Which equals devaluing.

With the current guild system if one guild was doing what you say you hate, you could choose not to buy, or to join another guild who isn't doing it. Or you could say no all together and make or find things yourself.

Prices are regulated by supply and demand in a broad economic model. If tons of people are selling the Blue Chestplate of Awesomeness, the only way people like you can continue to demand a high price for it is if its only available in a limited market. You make it obvious by your complaints about "undercutting", which you've made several times, that you have no interest in a fair market, only one where you can continue to gouge your fellow players.

Wrong, my comments are geared towards keeping a fair market. Not an oversaturated one where nothing has value. People will farm your valuable piece, and dump every single one on the market. You point out supply and demand but only see one part of it. You actually argue my own point with half what you say. Considering I do not sell to avoid this whole situation, I do not gouge anyone, nor have I ever, nor would I ever. I also wouldn't charge 2 gold for something worth 10 just to compete with people who don't care about the market at all.

Over pricing doesn't work in any market as most aren't dumb enough to pay more than somethings value. People are more than happy to pay less than something is worth, regardless of how it effects the market as a whole. People will charge less than something is worth in order to sell their item first. Please understand what I'm saying before arguing it. Don't accuse me of ridiculous things that couldn't be further from the truth.

By definition, a fair market is one where all consumers have access to all items and all prices. Limited centralized markets are NOT fair markets. "Oversaturated where nothing has value" is how supply and demand works in all markets. If you try to sell 500 Imperial Motifs in your guild store, it will be oversaturated and the price will drop. This is how it works, no matter how much you want to deny it. Everything you say points to you wanting to keep prices high so you can continue to overcharge players for stuff that is overly abundant in the world outside of your little market shell.

You keep repeating exactly what I'm accusing you of, so don't get upset when I accuse you of it. One more time - when supply exceeds demand, prices drop. By limiting the supply you can artificially inflate the prices, which is exactly what you keep describing.

Unfortunately, a global AH completely removes your option to shop around. If the market is over-saturated with what you're selling, you can't go to another one and sell your wares for a better price. Which in turn would fill a need in that particular market. On the buyer side, it's much, much easier for gold farmers to control the prices, especially on things like basic crafting mats. (WoW copper bars for five gold each anyone?)

If you're leveling your crafting skill, you've only got two options under a global AH system. Pay insanely high prices for your basics or farm it yourself. ESO went with a sort of one-two punch solution on this particular front. First, multiple markets means you can shop around a bit and find one you can afford. Second, you can harvest anything whether you've got the associated crafting skill or not, meaning a lot more people are able to farm the resource and increase supply.

it is virtually impossible for any one entity to monopolize common goods in a global economy. Rare goods are a different story, but rare goods are always going to be expensive due to them being....rare. Basic economic principles apply even when the dreaded gold farmer rears its ugly head. The laws of economic supply and demand don't suddenly change. Any time supply exceeds demand, prices fall. When demand exceeds supply, prices rise. The broader your consumer base, the better the price regulation. You'll never be paying "insanely high prices for basics" in any global market, it simply doesn't work that way.

BigDumbViking

I'm fine with no AH, but It would be nice if the loot gear would sell for similar values to vendor gear. The fact that level 6 green vendor gear costs like 800g and the looted level 35 Purple gear sells for 50g at the same vendor, is garbage. The economy in it's current state sucks. and needs to be fixed, but AH is not the end all be all.

Aemesh23

I notice nobody mentions that the 'global auction house' economies in other games are notoriously abused (and later left to fester and rot as carcasses) by large gold-farming rings, greedy nitwits and silly rabbits, who buyout everything, increase the pricing and toss them back on the auction block. This doesn't happen right away, but just you wait until 2 months have passed; suddenly that "60 dollar product" that you could maybe buy for 20$ on day one from someone underselling, becomes 120$ because Zhou Bao the 50 account farmer has bought all the products at 20, and wants to monopolize all of said product. Prices on Zhou Bao's iron ingots, only 12000g for a stack of 100!! buy now! (and they're all stacks of 1000, even though you just need 10 right now.)

E-bay has lower prices because people generally want to sell items for less than customers would buy them for at a retailer, while getting more than they'd sell them at a pawn shop. There is largely no retailer for items in a game. Additionally, the players of this game (and most others) are not professional economists endowed with a sense of long-term responsibility.
They are often shortsighted and usually somewhat greedy. Take a look at the prices of unique equipment in Diablo 3, for example; even pieces that were somewhat worthless were selling for ridiculous sums, heaps and heaps, because one butt-head decided "this level 12 hat should cost 100,000 gold, because its the only one." The next week, 7 other players find it, see the going price, and offer "reasonable prices" of 80,000 and up - for an item that should statistically be worth 5000.

IRL, there are regulations that prevent things like gouging and monopolies (eh... theoretically). In mmo's, there really is very little regulation on the players' decisions, and it often ends up profiting the people who are already ridiculously wealthy, while causing john and jane q average player to pale and groan when trying to find a decent piece of gear.

Therefore, if any issues should be addressed concerning player controlled economies, it should be these A) guilds need more store and bank space. Variety is the spice of life. IF and i repeat IF a global auction is allowed, maximum and minimum price ranges should be implemented to prevent the spread of assolitus (figure that one out phonetically) and the persons selling it should have to provide their guild tag (so that you can see who's buying everything out and if you choose to, you can deny the nitwits their ill-gotten means, or at least not be paying your enemies, if youre into that whole alliance war thing.) C) if a global auction will not be allowed (and i hope it isn't, really) then instead, I'd like to see all the "buy go ld n0\/\/ b30+ch35!!" messages removed from zone chat on penalty of death and dismemberment.

By the way, this rant probably doesn't hurt your eyes as much as all the gold-marketing sites in z-chat hurt mine, but I apologize anyway for the lengthy read. BTW, WTS bridge! 3000000g obo, pst

Jeremy

Tiyamel wrote: »

Sick of seeing all the negative threads out there bombarding the forums about how we want a global auction house, personally i am very happy with the current system, it needs a few refinements granted, but as it stands i feel it is a better system than most MMO's out there, i understand some people find it hard to find a good trading guild, but once you find it, it works .

.

This is one of the most non-functional economies I have ever seen on any MMORPG. It's so bad I spend more time trading with NPCs than I do other players.

Maybe you hit the jackpot and found a trading guild that adequately serves your needs. I won't call you a liar. But if so, you are one of the few lucky ones. Because I have been jumping in and out of different guilds since I started playing and none of them sell the materials I am looking for. Not even once. Let alone on a consistent basis.

I honestly don't know how anyone could be happy with the state of this game's economy. I don't like to be so bluntly negative about a game I actually do like, but it's economy is just awful. A useless frustrating mess that's nearly impossible to use with any success.

Drachenfier

Aemesh23 wrote: »

I notice nobody mentions that the 'global auction house' economies in other games are notoriously abused (and later left to fester and rot as carcasses) by large gold-farming rings, greedy nitwits and silly rabbits, who buyout everything, increase the pricing and toss them back on the auction block.

Then you didn't read the thread, its been mentioned many times, and it's utterly nonsensical. It's the most common mentioned excuse, and the least common occurrence in reality. The real reason people don't want a global economy is so that they can continue to artificially inflate prices by limiting supply to small markets.

Audigy

I wouldn't mind having a flexible way of entering a town and offering my goods without the need of joining a guild (horrible wow experience taught me lessons) or using a flooded AH where bots rule the market.

It would be great if I could just shout an item and someone hears me and bids for it. Like it works on a huge market place. Its a temporary offer, that people can accept or they don't.

Limit this to one of twice an hour and it might serve as a viable trading system.

Trading should also be a town thing, I hated wow with one AH for many servers and cities - where was the point in that? It would be fun if for instance Davons watch becomes some type of wood and fish selling place, while others suit better for iron.

I mean you don't buy iron swords in wall mart either, that's where you buy the guns - right my lovely American friends?

crush83

I have considerable trouble selling blues in Zone chat. I also feel like I'm spamming Zone...why is there no Trade chat?

I often have to price the blues at near vendor prices just to get people to send me a PST. Which means I'm probably not maximizing profit, but my inventory is full and I need to offload the items. I don't want to vendor them because they could be useful for someone else.

Green items, I just straight up vendor or research.

I've joined a few guilds, a couple with a store where I was unable to sell anything. In fact, the guild stores seemed to be full of people selling items, but no one buying...

I'm not sure that a global auction house is the answer, but some type of public facing vendor system would certainly be nice.

Aemesh23

Drachenfier wrote: »

Aemesh23 wrote: »

I notice nobody mentions that the 'global auction house' economies in other games are notoriously abused (and later left to fester and rot as carcasses) by large gold-farming rings, greedy nitwits and silly rabbits, who buyout everything, increase the pricing and toss them back on the auction block.

Then you didn't read the thread, its been mentioned many times, and it's utterly nonsensical. It's the most common mentioned excuse, and the least common occurrence in reality. The real reason people don't want a global economy is so that they can continue to artificially inflate prices by limiting supply to small markets.

Utterly nonsensical... Kind of like staying in a guild that allows its members to inflate prices (and that's a choice in this game, not an economic absolute) by limiting supply to small markets.

And no I didn't read through the whole thread, I skimmed it (sorry to all those who mentioned AH abuse, I really do try to read 5 pages a minute, but I'm only 1/10 that good). But I did it to avoid the inevitable groan that comes from reading posts by people who sterilize the content of other people's posts by presenting counterarguments based on supposition, and presenting them as facts. You can bet your head and every gold tooth that the vast majority of AHs on other games have major inflation problems the longer they run. How can you deny it? Anyone who's played those games has seen the evidence first hand! I even gave a prime example in Diablo3, would you like more examples? Actually, I'm sure you've read about it elsewhere, you can argue with those people if you like.

On the other hand, let's say I agree, for a moment, that limiting supply in small markets is the REAL reason people don't want a global economy... and not because I personally don't want to see all the crazy gold-farming, and/or gold purchasing shizbirds out there to be running around will a full set of gold gear because mommy (/spouse or /you) has a big wallet, and ESO's terms be damned! Wait a second, no, I really do disagree. I've seen this process happen, indirectly and directly, in a great many games, and *startling correlation* those games had global AH! And no I am not the kind of profiteer that you mention, I get all my gear and gold from pvp and dungeons (in cyrodiil)

IF I agreed for a moment, that the guild store needs improvement, I'd say that yes, the guild bank/store interface should probably be expanded on.... OH WAIT! I did say that. I forget, I barely read my own posts, let alone everyone else's. Shoot.

Glurin

Drachenfier wrote: »

Aemesh23 wrote: »

I notice nobody mentions that the 'global auction house' economies in other games are notoriously abused (and later left to fester and rot as carcasses) by large gold-farming rings, greedy nitwits and silly rabbits, who buyout everything, increase the pricing and toss them back on the auction block.

Then you didn't read the thread, its been mentioned many times, and it's utterly nonsensical. It's the most common mentioned excuse, and the least common occurrence in reality. The real reason people don't want a global economy is so that they can continue to artificially inflate prices by limiting supply to small markets.

Drachenfier wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Drachenfier wrote: »

MysticAura wrote: »

Drachenfier wrote: »

MysticAura wrote: »

Drachenfier wrote: »

The OP and those like him want to keep prices high so they can make money off of their fellow players. When markets are small and centralized, its hard for supply to exceed demand, because the player base doesn't have access to the entire supply of goods out there, so people like the OP and those that support him can continue to charge higher prices for their useless crap, mainly their useless crafted crap.

Shame on you, IMO. Every game needs a global or at least faction wide AH for a healthy and vibrant economy.

That is not true at all. Why would anyone want crap? They simply wouldn't buy if it was crap. If it was actually priced above what the person felt it was worth, they wouldn't buy. People are not forced to buy anything. I'm sorry but undercutting and market killing is what breaks economy it doesn't make it. I do not mean reasonable pricing, I mean selling below cost and flooding. Which equals devaluing.

With the current guild system if one guild was doing what you say you hate, you could choose not to buy, or to join another guild who isn't doing it. Or you could say no all together and make or find things yourself.

Prices are regulated by supply and demand in a broad economic model. If tons of people are selling the Blue Chestplate of Awesomeness, the only way people like you can continue to demand a high price for it is if its only available in a limited market. You make it obvious by your complaints about "undercutting", which you've made several times, that you have no interest in a fair market, only one where you can continue to gouge your fellow players.

Wrong, my comments are geared towards keeping a fair market. Not an oversaturated one where nothing has value. People will farm your valuable piece, and dump every single one on the market. You point out supply and demand but only see one part of it. You actually argue my own point with half what you say. Considering I do not sell to avoid this whole situation, I do not gouge anyone, nor have I ever, nor would I ever. I also wouldn't charge 2 gold for something worth 10 just to compete with people who don't care about the market at all.

Over pricing doesn't work in any market as most aren't dumb enough to pay more than somethings value. People are more than happy to pay less than something is worth, regardless of how it effects the market as a whole. People will charge less than something is worth in order to sell their item first. Please understand what I'm saying before arguing it. Don't accuse me of ridiculous things that couldn't be further from the truth.

By definition, a fair market is one where all consumers have access to all items and all prices. Limited centralized markets are NOT fair markets. "Oversaturated where nothing has value" is how supply and demand works in all markets. If you try to sell 500 Imperial Motifs in your guild store, it will be oversaturated and the price will drop. This is how it works, no matter how much you want to deny it. Everything you say points to you wanting to keep prices high so you can continue to overcharge players for stuff that is overly abundant in the world outside of your little market shell.

You keep repeating exactly what I'm accusing you of, so don't get upset when I accuse you of it. One more time - when supply exceeds demand, prices drop. By limiting the supply you can artificially inflate the prices, which is exactly what you keep describing.

Unfortunately, a global AH completely removes your option to shop around. If the market is over-saturated with what you're selling, you can't go to another one and sell your wares for a better price. Which in turn would fill a need in that particular market. On the buyer side, it's much, much easier for gold farmers to control the prices, especially on things like basic crafting mats. (WoW copper bars for five gold each anyone?)

If you're leveling your crafting skill, you've only got two options under a global AH system. Pay insanely high prices for your basics or farm it yourself. ESO went with a sort of one-two punch solution on this particular front. First, multiple markets means you can shop around a bit and find one you can afford. Second, you can harvest anything whether you've got the associated crafting skill or not, meaning a lot more people are able to farm the resource and increase supply.

it is virtually impossible for any one entity to monopolize common goods in a global economy. Rare goods are a different story, but rare goods are always going to be expensive due to them being....rare. Basic economic principles apply even when the dreaded gold farmer rears its ugly head. The laws of economic supply and demand don't suddenly change. Any time supply exceeds demand, prices fall. When demand exceeds supply, prices rise. The broader your consumer base, the better the price regulation. You'll never be paying "insanely high prices for basics" in any global market, it simply doesn't work that way.

Virtually every single other MMO out there with a global AH system proves you wrong. Go ahead. Look at the price of basic crafting mats in those other AHs. You will very often see them listed for way, way, way more than anyone could ever hope to get out of them and quite often by just two or three sellers. This isn't a case of rare goods being monopolized. These are common goods being bought up and controlled by a select few individuals.

You're right about one thing though. I, personally will not be paying these insanely high prices. But there are other people out there who will. People who have reached end game and have plenty of gold to spare or people who have bought gold with real money.

crush83

I want to like the idea of trade guilds. I believe that it offers a road back to player-run vendors and shops. However, there is a problem in the design.

That problem is that you have to be a member of the trade guild in order to buy from it. The main criticism with the few trade guilds I've been able to join so far is that everyone is selling, and seemingly no one is buying.

If you think about it, say you join a Blacksmithing trade guild. No one in the guild is going to be buying from the shop because they are Blacksmith's themselves. If they need something, they will craft it for themselves first.

In fact, it's the people NOT in the guild who would provide the demand for the Blacksmith'd items. Yet, those people are precisely the people not allowed to purchase items from the store.

It seems to me that a Guild Store should receive a public facing vendor that can be placed in a city somewhere.

The public facing vendor could keep a portion of the profits it makes in order to pay for its space in the shop.

Now Trade Guilds can be picky about who they let in to their guild. They might choose only the best blacksmiths, or the most active. It would function more like a Trade Guild should function.

However, you still have the problem that gold farmers could buy all of the gear from these Trade Guilds and reoffer it for sale in their own Trade Guilds for ridiculous prices.

That is a problem that can't really be solved with any public facing, player-run store. However, by spreading the items out over multiple vendors, you've at least made it harder for them to buy the items and move them to their own store.

Glurin

crush83 wrote: »

I want to like the idea of trade guilds. I believe that it offers a road back to player-run vendors and shops. However, there is a problem in the design.

That problem is that you have to be a member of the trade guild in order to buy from it. The main criticism with the few trade guilds I've been able to join so far is that everyone is selling, and seemingly no one is buying.

That right there in bold is where the real issue is. I know it was mentioned during the beta period and I think before that that one of the main purposes of capturing keeps in Cyrodiil was so that you could open your guild store to everyone else. Or at least everyone on your alliance. Might be a good idea to get that implemented.

Drachenfier

Glurin wrote: »

Virtually every single other MMO out there with a global AH system proves you wrong.

On the contrary, they all prove me right. Basic crafting mats are dirt cheap in Rift, SWTOR, and GW2, which are the only ones I'm actively playing or have actively played within the last few months (aside from ESO). The only way a scenario that you describe could be possible is in a game with a tiny player base (kind of like small limited markets!), in which case the basic economic rule of supply and demand is being met by the other end of the spectrum, where supply does not exceed demand.

Honestly, i can't believe some of you are so stubbornly arguing against a basic principle that is as sure as water is wet.

crush83

Drachenfier wrote: »

Honestly, I can't believe some of you are so stubbornly arguing against a basic principle that is as sure as water is wet.

In some games, they are cheap, in others they are not. For example, last time I played WoW, basic leveling mats were outrageously expensive. Things like Linen Cloth, and Silk Cloth were more expensive than the mats that were dropping from the new zone.

But stop to think about why for a second. They were more expensive because the supply wasn't meeting the demand...

You had a bunch of new players coming to the game (or old players with new accounts possibly). They wanted to level their professions, but were power leveling through the content. Since fewer players were playing the low level content for a normal amount of time, there was a small supply of low level crafting mats, but the demand was extremely high.

This drove up the price of things like Silk Cloth and Linen Cloth. However, the price of the new Panda cloth was pretty much in line with Linen Cloth because everyone and their brother was getting it while doing the new content (which you couldn't really power level because Recruit-A-Friend bonus didn't apply to it).

Another reason they were so high was that veterans had boat loads of gold to spend, and weren't afraid to spend it to level up that new Panda character. While 5 gold might be an outrageous amount for a newcomer to the game, 5 gold is dropped off a single mob at the end-game content.

So yeah, basically Drachenfier is right.

Jeremy

Glurin wrote: »

crush83 wrote: »

I want to like the idea of trade guilds. I believe that it offers a road back to player-run vendors and shops. However, there is a problem in the design.

That problem is that you have to be a member of the trade guild in order to buy from it. The main criticism with the few trade guilds I've been able to join so far is that everyone is selling, and seemingly no one is buying.

That right there in bold is where the real issue is. I know it was mentioned during the beta period and I think before that that one of the main purposes of capturing keeps in Cyrodiil was so that you could open your guild store to everyone else. Or at least everyone on your alliance. Might be a good idea to get that implemented.

You are right. That's the problem. The market size of the individual guild stores are just too small to create a vibrant economy. That's why they should be consolidated in some way so everyone can access them - which would be basically the same as a public auction house.

The truth is many games have tried to find alternative ways to run an economy instead of a public auction house. I'm not sure why, as they have worked quite well in all games I have played. In fact, the only example I ever seen mentioned where it's generally agreed they haven't worked out is in Diablo 3. A game I never played, but I am told RMT was a huge factor in that failed design so it's not really relevant to this game. So I challenge the anti-auction house crowd to come up with more examples.

But back to my point - Final Fantasy 14 tried a bazaar-based economy where everyone set up retainers in a market place to sell goods. It failed miserably. The whole system was simply more trouble than its worth, and they finally wised up and put in an auction house. That needs to happen here.

This is a game. People play it to have fun. No one - or at least very few - are going to enjoy spending hours sifting through different markets or reading trade spam trying to find what they are looking for. That is just not an enjoyable experience for a lot of us. And adds nothing of value to this game.

Glurin

Drachenfier wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Virtually every single other MMO out there with a global AH system proves you wrong.

On the contrary, they all prove me right. Basic crafting mats are dirt cheap in Rift, SWTOR, and GW2, which are the only ones I'm actively playing or have actively played within the last few months (aside from ESO). The only way a scenario that you describe could be possible is in a game with a tiny player base (kind of like small limited markets!), in which case the basic economic rule of supply and demand is being met by the other end of the spectrum, where supply does not exceed demand.

Honestly, i can't believe some of you are so stubbornly arguing against a basic principle that is as sure as water is wet.

If by "dirt cheap" you mean the only people who can afford it don't need it, then yeah, you're right. Just because Bill Gates can use his lunch money to buy a new yacht does not mean the yacht is "dirt cheap" to anyone but him though.

Jeremy

Drachenfier wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Virtually every single other MMO out there with a global AH system proves you wrong.

On the contrary, they all prove me right. Basic crafting mats are dirt cheap in Rift, SWTOR, and GW2, which are the only ones I'm actively playing or have actively played within the last few months (aside from ESO). The only way a scenario that you describe could be possible is in a game with a tiny player base (kind of like small limited markets!), in which case the basic economic rule of supply and demand is being met by the other end of the spectrum, where supply does not exceed demand.

Honestly, i can't believe some of you are so stubbornly arguing against a basic principle that is as sure as water is wet.

No on the contrary they all prove you wrong.

SWTOR and GW2 both had functioning economies where I could buy and sell with success. GW2 in particular had the best economy I have ever seen on the game. It worked amazing, and I could always sell and buy almost instantly. I could make money. I could spend money.

I never played rift, but judging by your other comments I would say that one probably worked rather well too. It seems you just have a problem with economies that work.

crush83

Glurin wrote: »

If by "dirt cheap" you mean the only people who can afford it don't need it, then yeah, you're right. Just because Bill Gates can use his lunch money to buy a new yacht does not mean the yacht is "dirt cheap" to anyone but him though.

But how many yachts is Bill Gates going to buy? When Bill Gates stops buying yachts, then the price of yachts will fall until:

• The price of the yachts meets the price to produce the yachts, at which no profit is made, and thus no benefit in producing the yachts.
• Someone else starts buying the yachts at whatever price they have descended to.

Supersomething

Drachenfier wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Virtually every single other MMO out there with a global AH system proves you wrong.

On the contrary, they all prove me right. Basic crafting mats are dirt cheap in Rift, SWTOR, and GW2, which are the only ones I'm actively playing or have actively played within the last few months (aside from ESO). The only way a scenario that you describe could be possible is in a game with a tiny player base (kind of like small limited markets!), in which case the basic economic rule of supply and demand is being met by the other end of the spectrum, where supply does not exceed demand.

Honestly, i can't believe some of you are so stubbornly arguing against a basic principle that is as sure as water is wet.

I cannot comment about Swtor since I haven't played that after the first month after its initial launch. GW2 however I can comment on.

That game has an AH that spans all of it servers and because of this it deflates the inflationary value of gold which is a good thing. The reason being is because the rarer materials within that game such as Orichalcum, Legendary precursors, etc. were worth more by comparison to everyday mats. This idea that the game economy would instantly tank because of a singular AH is absolutely false because GW2 has already proved it could be done and it works exceptionally well.