Are MMO players spoiled by WOW?

Catches_the_Sun

Are MMO players spoiled by WoW? I would say they absolutely are. Whether many of the WoW features started there or were copied from other MMOs of that immediate era (EQ2, SWG) the fact is that WoW introduced MMO gaming to millions of people who previously had no desire to play one. They did this by making their game more accessible, or dumbing it down, reducing dependency on other people & the need to socialize. Since the vast majority of MMO gamers today got their start with WoW, they expect to be spoon-fed in the same ways. They expect an Auction House, they expect quest markers to tell them exactly where to go & what to do when they get there. They expect damage numbers flying all over the place, dps meters, mini-maps, instanced arena PvP, add-ons that map their skyshards & lore books, etc etc.

tarek

wow is for brain dead vegetables, I'm sorry i played it and I was HATED <<< HATED for reading quests and books and taking my time exploring and fishing just for the hell of it, I actually enjoyed the leveling up process... when me and my buddy reached level 80 we just quit... the game is NOT a good place for people that want to have fun, its for grinding gold farmers and hardcore babies, the daily quests turned my stomach and the cookie cutter builds just made me sick,
if I was not grinding for the best gear then i was a noob unworthy of the glory of
the hardcore players .

now I saw TESO on youtube and the world looked amazing and the quests are voiced and seem pretty nice, I'm not in TESO to grind for the best gear unless its fun nor I'm gonna go for "builds" unless it suits me

I play games to have fun

oh yah and flying mounts just killed world pvp in wow, KILLED IT

Hawtsauce

" oh yah and flying mounts just killed world pvp in wow, KILLED IT "

DUDE ! flight form ... spot a target > bear charge from mid air > cat form sooo much fun ( well not for them )

Thete

Hawtsauce wrote: »

" oh yah and flying mounts just killed world pvp in wow, KILLED IT "

World pvp was always pointless. If anything killed it, it was the far more sensible concept of battlegrounds.

Flying mounts were a stunningly bad idea though, which even the developers have admitted to semi-regretting.

Raice

I don't think it's so much that people are spoiled by WoW. I think the issue is so many people have been programmed to expect certain features in an MMO so much that those certain features are considered "conventions" of the genre.

And these conventions were amplified by the 10 years of MMO copy-cats that simply didn't do the conventions justice. It wasn't until later that these conventions became decent. I would say SWTOR is a good example of this. For the most part - it handles the "expected" very well. Sure, say what you will about it - but don't lie about the truth - it was a solid game built completely on conventions.

The issue with conventions is that they are a dangerous thing to have in the most expensive genre in gaming. It's kind of like the Hollywood Blockbuster. The movies that show up in the Summer-time are all going to follow the same formula. But the higher-budget movies that are somewhat dicey for the studio, or attempt to actually break conventions are reserved for the Winter.

MMO's have all been Summer Blockbusters. They all follow the same convention. And players have played that for the past 10 years, without much in the way of an option. Sure... there have been a few. But they were all... well... they didn't have the production value of a really good game.

This genre needs that Winter release. It has to have it so that new conventions can be established or old ones can be brought down. ESO is a pretty good "Winter Release" if you ask me. It isn't the Tarentino MMO that is sort of needed, but it's a good start.

michaelfomenkocub18_ESO

fehu777 wrote: »

Hello!

I've been playing for a few days now and following the game for much longer and time after time I see a common theme in some of the post and videos on the internet.

Players are complaining about the lack of convenience , a few examples are the size of the pvp area and the lack of numbers showing damage done.

This is interesting to me because I very much so enjoy the absence of
"spoon feeding" in ESO.

Every accomplishment feels more enjoyable and worth while because it took more effort to achieve.

In the past I have witnessed the "watering down" of games that I loved and its a sad experience to go through = (

If any reader feels that they are in opposition to this overview I would be interested in hearing you out as to why you feel this way.

its not so much that players have been spoonfed by wow, the 'numbers showing damage done' on wow are addons much like are available for eso already for anyone willing to take 2 minutes to google it or look on curse. as far as the massive pvp zone, its elder scrolls since when is anything in elder scrolls condensed lol.

but these complaints are because of how wow is, but because of the kind of player that wow has focused on drawing in over the last few years. they quit focusing on mature long term gamers and changed their focus on pulling in a younger audience, mainly the toxic community many of us know and loathe known as the 'CoD players.' a bunch of young kids that want everything now and cry and whine that everythings unfair if they dont get their way.

sadly now that blizzard has brought those types of individuals into the mmo community getting rid of them is nearly impossible. liberal use of your ignore list and prayers that the eso devs are smarter then blizzard and ignore them as well are advised.

also prayers that their balls drop so they stop hurting our ears in voip servers, and that they mature faster with our wonderful examples of mature mmo gamers to show them the way, wouldnt go amiss either

tarek

I just Hope Beth/Zen can resist the urge to add pandas and Pokemon pet fights and flying butterfly mounts and raids that need 5 months of preparation before hand

jimredtalon

gonzo914 wrote: »

You kids complaining about the server being down and a long wait when changing areas or logging on should have seen Wow when it first came out. The server was down for the first 90 days the game was open. No one could get on whatsoever, but we didn't complain. We just paid our subscription fee each month hoping that would be the month it came back up so we could play.

For the first year, it took an entire fortnight just to log on, and I could clean my mom's entire basement in the time it took to go from one area to the next. And the lag was bloody awful. I logged on one day and took damage from a hit from the previous day.

And we didn't have those fancy animations like you have now. All we had were streams of zeroes and one, bright green lines and lines of them scrolling off the screen, and we had to compile them ourselves so we could see what was happening.

Plus, I had to walk 25 miles in the snow and sleet and freezing cold, uphill both ways, to get to the Starbucks where I could sit outside on the curb and pirate their wireless so I could log on to play.

You kids today just don't realize how good you have it.

Cute but I do remember some of those text based RPG MMO's back in the 90's. You wanna talk old school man.

ConquerorDromtar

Interesting premise OP and overall an interesting discussion here. I'm going to completely agree with previous posters who've said WoW has conditioned the majority of players to expect certain gameplay elements and conventions be followed in their games. In some areas and to certain degrees including such gameplay elements and following certain conventions can be a very good thing for a game. I would love to see ESO include elements that improve banking and guild administration functionality, for example.

However, in other things I would like to see ESO remain true to the developers' intentions. I love the "action combat" and questing systems. The need to consider active blocking, dodging, and resource use makes combat much more engaging. Likewise, the hybrid questing system where there are clear mini-quest hubs/story arcs that give a clear path with additional quests to be found through exploration is awesome. Even though it's been frustrating for me at times (due to conditioning from past games) I think the hybrid model really is the best of both worlds.

On to encounter modification/nerfing using EP side Doshia as an example. I had a HORRIBLE time with that fight at level. I've never developed the twitch skills/reflexes most other players have and am running on a lower-end machine so certain timing/visual cue issues made things a bit difficult for me. On top of that, my skill choices, weapon use choices, and the room itself gave me fits. I'll be honest, I tried 10 times at near-level and gave up in utter frustration, only to come back at lvl 17 and finally make it through after a few deaths even at that level.

In the context created above, I can completely understand how ZOS would choose to modify the encounter to make it more accessible/easier for people considering it's an important threshold in the quest arc. I would say that's the core issue we're dealing with here; the wide variety of choice players have with their characters will inherently cause some encounters to be much more difficult for some than others. Modifying a few encounters here and there to allow people with "sub-optimal specs", hardware/latency issues, and/or lower facility with combat mechanics than other players isn't a bad thing.

A wholesale "instant gratification-ization" of the game IS a bad thing.

zydrateanatomy

I did play WoW for several years, but I've also played a dozen other MMO's like Guild Wars (both of them), Champions Online, and a few others. So when I play ESO, my mind compares it between all of them.

ESO to me gets more fun as it goes on. Which is backwards in my opinion. The game should hook you from the start but instead I was saddled with annoyance after annoyance. After hurdling through all that, I'm still underleveled for half my quests. They're doable, but the quest rewards are level locked. That has been my latest obstacle.

ESO does need tweaking. Don't let the people going "shut up, wow kids" distract you from this.

ConquerorDromtar

Zydra,

Have you completed all of the quests in each zone before moving on? I'm finding myself in the opposite situation; I'm often over leveled for the quests I'm doing. Before going to the next zone I've made sure to get all of the sky shards which has had the side effect of opening up a number of quests/questlines I'd previously missed, not to mention the exploration XP gains. If you're having difficulties with being under leveled it may help you to look for sky shards.

Cascade_V

ConquerorDromtar wrote: »

Interesting premise OP and overall an interesting discussion here. I'm going to completely agree with previous posters who've said WoW has conditioned the majority of players to expect certain gameplay elements and conventions be followed in their games.

of course...even ESO is copying the successful WoW model (which also uses older material);

item colors - Why is ( green < blue < purple ) some kind of biblical convention?

mail? When did any medieval society have common mail?

Disappearing mounts? they just vanish right there and reappear...

ESO is just not that mechanically different that what has been already out there. I think they're generating business on the story, which is why WoW still stays due to the age and the lore. Even SWTOR pulled in a ton of people initially but the story simply couldn't develop and people left.

Somehow the above is the norm with small sidetracks in selection characteristics.

How are the giant chain openings in the sky that suddenly spawn monsters different than Rifts' ?

3 catagories of armor? do we need catagories?

Rifts, Tera, Aion, Conan, Warhammer ..they all follow WoW and seek to tap its market...and Wow essentially took what it had from Asheron's call, Ultima and Everquest. Yeah there's others but they all come down to the same basic mechanics.

Today people are comfortable in what general reference they like. You'll have fan boys from each one touting what is best...in the end, teh success depends on populations as that is busines and what generates more money when gives more content and it keeps going. WoW subs jump up and down with expansions for just that reason.

WoW was best when it was new, casual and expansive...as is ESO at the start.
I have mechanical complaints atm with ESO but the content will be good for a few months, after that...I'll probably chuck in with all of the above.

crush83

ConquerorDromtar wrote: »

Have you completed all of the quests in each zone before moving on? I'm finding myself in the opposite situation; I'm often over leveled for the quests I'm doing.

I find myself in this situation in every zone so far, but I'm a completionist, so I'm not leaving a zone until I've got at least the Exploration, Questing, Skyshard, World Bosses, and Cave Exploration achievements finished.

I've also been able to complete two lore book collections so far.

StuppyJoe

It's true that Wow has been watered down a lot, irritatingly so. That said, Wow has also already solved a lot of the problems that ESO should have been able to avoid. Further, Wow has a sense of community, even now, that ESO has been unable to develop because guilds are forced to focus on trade not socialization.

It's not that we don't recognise that Wow has a ton of problems right now, but rather that ESO is losing players for easily solvable reasons.

Zorak

Zubba wrote: »

Zorak wrote: »

Zubba wrote: »

To me, it's more like WOW destroyed the online gaming scene completely.

How so ?

WoW is the reason MMO became so "popular" in the Western community.

I find WoW very boring and repetitive now, but you can't ignore what they done.

There was many games before wow with alot more interesting game mechanics. Now the majority, if not all of the game companies "follow" the model of wow. Wow is very good at being wow. But truly not something I like to play.

I like games with risk/rewards. Open World pvp with loot drops as an example. Game mechanics that dont say "oops, you cant do that", but rather let me do it and then pay the consequences. I also never liked quests, or grinding.

No problem with that. But that's YOUR opinion.

Still, WoW is BY FAR, more popular than those other games together. Maybe that's why so many companies made lots of "WoW clones" ?!?!

And that's something you can't change.

Talking about open world pvp...WoW has it, ESO don't.

And if you don't like questing nor grinding, maybe MMORPGs aren't the right games for you.

Edit: And plz, I think WoW was revolutionary and deserves respect for all it did, but now I find it old and boring.

pysgod1978b14_ESO

The color system came from Diablo 2 and of course WoW to differentiate easier. Games before it you had to check each items stats separately to tell what was what. It even caught on with EvE though a less extent with there being normal tech 1 as white, tech 2 as orange, storyline as light green, factions as dark green, tech 3 as another color and then purple for the officer stuff.

crush83

The thing people loved most about SWG was the diversity in itemization. No two weapons were the same (unless they were created from a factory run).

It was marvelous tbh, and that is what made crafting so great in that game. I find itemization extremely boring in every other MMO. Even in ESO it's pretty bland.

Sure, there is a fair amount of variety, but a Beech Staff of Flame, is a Beech Staff of Flame, is a Beech Staff of Flame. Yeah, there are traits. Big deal. Yeah, you can have a green, blue, purple, or yellow that slightly boosts the stats. The problem is it boosts them exactly the same for everyone.

I want variety in all stats depending on who crafted it, and with what quality of resources they crafted it. I want rare components that can supplant other components. I want the quality of these components to vary. Of course, the stats on items in this game are pretty basic, so there's not a lot of variation that could even exist unfortunately.

The great part of SWG was that Joe might craft his buff packs with 2079 power and 2 hours and 39 minutes of duration, while Jill might craft her buff packs with 2289 power and 2 hours of duration. Brad might make his buff packs with 2019 buff power and 2 hours and 45 minutes of duration. Bob might make his packs wtih 3100 power (using Janta Blood component) and 1 hour and 45 minutes of duration. etc.

Look at weapons. Joe might craft a T21 rifle with 294-547 damage and 8.4 speed. Jill might craft a T21 rifle with 319-512 damage and 8.7 speed. Brad might craft one with 185-617 damage and 11.4 speed. Bob might craft one with 344-495 damage and 7.4 speed.

The variation was so immense, it really gave people a signature touch, and an extremely in depth crafting experience. Loot was just as varied, which made SWG's itemization perhaps the best I've ever experienced in an MMO.

StuppyJoe

Here's why I prefer Wow, even now, even though I WANT to prefer eso: Wow STILL has more sense of community than eso. I know that eso is new but I don't think that that's the problem. The problem is that the guild system actively deters it. Just get an AH already.

SadisticSavior

Cascade_V wrote: »

of course...even ESO is copying the successful WoW model (which also uses older material);

LOL, WoW invented none of that stuff.

Cascade_V wrote: »

item colors - Why is ( green < blue < purple ) some kind of biblical convention?

mail? When did any medieval society have common mail?

Disappearing mounts? they just vanish right there and reappear...

Everquest was doing all of that in the 90s. And this game is way more like Everquest than WoW (which is a good thing)

ESO is mechanically different in the sense that if is far more sandbox than EQ or WoW was. You have far more control over character customization, both in looks and abilities. Very few skills are class-specific, and appearance can vary dramatically...I still have not seen anyone in the game that even resembles my character. IMO, the differences are significant.

Pretext

Easymode MMOs have spoiled the genre, once you make anything easier people only want to do it the easy way. Gamers are no different in that regard.

jmido8

There's a lot of things I want added to this game and I have never played WoW.

zydrateanatomy

ConquerorDromtar wrote: »

Zydra,

Have you completed all of the quests in each zone before moving on? I'm finding myself in the opposite situation; I'm often over leveled for the quests I'm doing. Before going to the next zone I've made sure to get all of the sky shards which has had the side effect of opening up a number of quests/questlines I'd previously missed, not to mention the exploration XP gains. If you're having difficulties with being under leveled it may help you to look for sky shards.

Actually I have the Skyshards mod. I end up clearing those up first, grabbing all the quests along the way for later use.

StuppyJoe

I just want a damn auction house.

A little one.

It doesn't even have to involve gnomes.

Gohlar

SadisticSavior wrote: »

Everquest was doing all of that in the 90s. And this game is way more like Everquest than WoW (which is a good thing)

ESO is mechanically different in the sense that if is far more sandbox than EQ or WoW was. You have far more control over character customization, both in looks and abilities. Very few skills are class-specific, and appearance can vary dramatically...I still have not seen anyone in the game that even resembles my character. IMO, the differences are significant.

This game is a theme park solo questing mmo, it's nothing like EQ. Also, EQ was not doing all of those things in the 90s.

ESO is pure theme park, just like WoW. I don't think you know what the term sandbox means. ESO relies on the modern WoW model heavily.

I also disagree that ESO has good visual variety with it's players. People look very much the same in their armor. That's subjective I suppose, but so much of what you say is simply wrong. To be blunt, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about when it comes to mmos.

Jeremy

This obsession with WoW must end.

StuppyJoe

It will end when eso is better. Right now, it's not. It should be but it's not.

Shimond

StuppyJoe wrote: »

It will end when eso is better. Right now, it's not. It should be but it's not.

Quite frankly if you feel that WOW is better than ESO right now, why are you playing ESO?

This isn't a 'go away' comment, it's a serious question. I don't understand how you could settle for second (or third or fourth or whatever) best if you truly believe that.

Knovah

Eso is in no way a sand box mmo by definition …but you also can not compare it to wow…I see why people mistake it as one .

Seriously it is comparing apples and peaches: yes both fruits yes both juicy
I enjoy wow and rift still and play eso more than either now, but I love them all 3 because they are different and offer different game choices.

People in general consider everything compared to wow because it is what is most popular, most successful and most well known…

In playing both no ways can I compare the two. I am not talking specs and engines and all the jargon with bells and whistles (you can argue semantics all day with looking crap up on Google). I am saying sitting down to the two games …If you really think they are so similar maybe we need to go back to " one of these things is not like the other "..(Yes I remember that song)... animation and play style alone you cant compare them. They are each of their own designs.

That does not make one worse than the other it makes them ……different… word of the day.

I will not compare them, I enjoy both games they offer me two unique play styles I enjoy. I guess I won't be a fanboi or whatever to any game. I am fickle I go with what I enjoy.

Oh and putting someone down because they disagree with you or vise versa … come on this may be the net but are we really that uncivilized that we cannot accept other people think differently? You can correct someone or point out what you see is wrong with out coming across as a well I won't use that word on the forums.

* This is my opinion there are many like it but this one is mine….. Don’t like it form your own and share with me...

Crumpy

Dunno why everyone seems to hate WoW so much, it's a well-made game.

Jeremy

Crumpy wrote: »

Dunno why everyone seems to hate WoW so much, it's a well-made game.

I found the game unremarkable. But that is just my opinion.

It did have excellent group-finding tools and smooth-running servers. I will give it that.

What I don't understand is why this game must always be used as the standard for every debate and conversation. It seems I can't barely breath on any topic without being attached to this World of Warcraft game.