Are MMO players spoiled by WOW?

doniecmb16_ESO

Hawtsauce wrote: »

how many people have ever owned a car without power windows or automatic transmission

Probably about 90% of Europeans.
We also don't use dollars here. Pretty crappy currency...

rioinsigniab16_ESO

It isn't just wow's fault. It's the entire MMO industry. Bioware, Blizzard, Cryptic...their all as bad as one another for implementing shallow gameplay and jumping on buzzwords like "viceral active combat" and other such rubbish.

Many MMO's have gone for "dumbed down" gameplay, hoping to appeal to a wide enough audience because doing so means that they don't have to put as much effort into their products. MMO devs / publishers are a lazy bunch.

But a fair portion of people are getting sick of shallow simplistic gameplay. They want something richer to get their teeth into. Of course, there will always be those who want to take the "path of least resistance".

Thankfully, it seems the market is beginning to do an about face in response. Which just goes to show that companies will only be seen to "listen" (I use that term loosely) when it hurts their bank balance...and not a moment sooner.

Melian

savinel wrote: »

fehu777 wrote: »

This is interesting to me because I very much so enjoy the absence of
"spoon feeding" in ESO.

Every accomplishment feels more enjoyable and worth while because it took more effort to achieve.

In the past I have witnessed the "watering down" of games that I loved ...

I'm not sure what "spoon feeding" means to you... but I'm inferring that if you're happy that it hasn't been watered down than it must be "harder" in some dimension.... and that's where you lose me.

ESO's pretty easy. That's not a criticism: I like ESO a lot. But I see it as about on the same level of "hard" as WoW, albeit with better graphics, better PvP, better PVE story lines, and better variety in character builds.

I'm just puzzled by how one would see it as "harder" than WoW.

Apologies if I misunderstood you.

Caveat: my other MMO is EVE Online.

I played WoW until last fall, and I'd say ESO is harder for these reasons:
1. Lack of tab targeting
2. Low-level mobs have mechanics you only see at max level in WoW, and they can't be ignored.
3. Slower leveling

And I love it.

Salsadoom

gonzo914 wrote: »

You kids complaining about the server being down and a long wait when changing areas or logging on should have seen Wow when it first came out. The server was down for the first 90 days the game was open. No one could get on whatsoever, but we didn't complain. We just paid our subscription fee each month hoping that would be the month it came back up so we could play.

For the first year, it took an entire fortnight just to log on, and I could clean my mom's entire basement in the time it took to go from one area to the next. And the lag was bloody awful. I logged on one day and took damage from a hit from the previous day.

And we didn't have those fancy animations like you have now. All we had were streams of zeroes and one, bright green lines and lines of them scrolling off the screen, and we had to compile them ourselves so we could see what was happening.

Plus, I had to walk 25 miles in the snow and sleet and freezing cold, uphill both ways, to get to the Starbucks where I could sit outside on the curb and pirate their wireless so I could log on to play.

You kids today just don't realize how good you have it.

You got sleet and snow? Man you had it easy, we had to walk in nuclear fall out across broken glass with no shoes! On good days we only had to carry our brother on our backs, bad day our brother and sister!

Greydog

There's a difference between "dumbed down" and "convenient" ..If WoW had never been released people would still crave convenience as it's very much a part of the world they live in.

Nox_Aeterna

More or less OP , the simple fact is , players got older , and playing games in general is not a "nerd"/"no life" thing anymore.

It is something a lot more people do today and tons of those players dont have hundreds of hours/month to give into the game.

So games become more casual to accommodate this.

Aett_Thorn wrote: »

matthewameluxenub17_ESO wrote: »

It would be nice if said people actually could remember vanilla WoW on launch. TESO does have a few things it could improve, definitely, but it seems like most comments along the lines of "WoW has this! Why not TESO?!" fail to remember that a week and a half after WoW launch, no, the game did not have said feature.

But then, a lot of players are just looking for something which is WoW (with all its expansions/updates), but new and fresh and not WoW. Which isn't right or wrong, just is.

^This. So. Much. This.

The problem with every new MMO is that it's, well...new. People come from other MMOs and wonder why it doesn't have a ton of end-game content, or a number of PvP options, or feature X or Y, when most new MMOs don't have all of those features at the start. Comparing a new game fresh from launch to a 9-year old game with 11+ years of development behind it is folly.

This game will get new content. It will get more end-game content. It will get more PvP options. It will get more X and Y and Z. But it will get these over time. People need to learn to be a bit patient with new games, and they will get to a point where they can compete with more mature games.

WoW is out today , TONS of other MMOs are out today.

It does not matter how it was 10 years ago , because that was 10 years ago , we are not living back then , we are here in 2014, not 2004.

And the new MMO comes to compete with said games that are already here, if they dont offer more , or atleast close to what others offer , people will not just stick around waiting for them to do it.

This is the reason pretty much all the MMOs that tried the subs/month "recently" failed.

People dont just keep waiting.

Svann

Invoking the wow corollary to Godwins Law.
/thread

Audigy

I think that with WOTLK and all those measurement tools, people stopped playing for fun, but to prove themselves.

Those proving "grounds" so to speak define if someone is worthy enough to enter someone else´s group. If you swim against the tide, you are an outsider and will never see any raid or group content besides LFR & LFD.

Not because you cant beat the other content, but because the community see´s you as an unworthy member of the group.

So yes, you can say people are spoiled by wow and its clones. Spoiled in a way that they cant play for fun anymore and have to analyze everything, always in danger of being unworthy to other community members.

Just look at it, already during Beta various people posted leveling guides, crafting guides etc. and many at the forum read them. They did so because they were afraid to fail, but by doing so they ruined the whole game for them. Lets face it, a game wont be fun if you treat it as a job, but this is what many of these readers do.

We even have an ESOhead, those that don't know it - its a website that explains you every quest, every mob, every skill - well it plays the game for you so to speak.


I remember using Thottbot sometimes at Vanilla, like when I didn't find a quest item. Needless to say that I stopped very fast with that, also because it took away the "explore" feeling of the game.

With ESO its the same, I have no idea what the max skill level is, what zones there are, what skills my classes have, what happens if I walk left instead of right. And you know what? This is fun and I can only tell everyone who is spoiled by wow, turn of your Addons, turn of ESOhead and just play the game. Avoid threads at the forum which are clearly a spoiler - you will have a lot more fun like that.


That said, don't expect the community to tolerate this. While it didn't happen yet at ESO, I remember wow and how furious people were if you didn't know a boss fight or if you didn't know a shortcut in a dungeon...

knightblaster

Audigy wrote: »

I think that with WOTLK and all those measurement tools, people stopped playing for fun, but to prove themselves.

...

Just look at it, already during Beta various people posted leveling guides, crafting guides etc. and many at the forum read them. They did so because they were afraid to fail, but by doing so they ruined the whole game for them. Lets face it, a game wont be fun if you treat it as a job, but this is what many of these readers do.

...

With ESO its the same, I have no idea what the max skill level is, what zones there are, what skills my classes have, what happens if I walk left instead of right. And you know what? This is fun and I can only tell everyone who is spoiled by wow, turn of your Addons, turn of ESOhead and just play the game. Avoid threads at the forum which are clearly a spoiler - you will have a lot more fun like that.


That said, don't expect the community to tolerate this. While it didn't happen yet at ESO, I remember wow and how furious people were if you didn't know a boss fight or if you didn't know a shortcut in a dungeon...

While I don't disagree that this play style can be fun, different people find different things fun.

For some players, playing an online game more "professionally" -- that is, having a good and thorough knowledge of the key systems at least before playing so that decisions are optimized -- is a core part of their fun experience. They don't enjoy stumbling around -- they don't find it fun, but frustrating. Obviously a different definition of fun from what you have, and that's fine, I think.

I also think many players have been molded by WoW, but also many players are, regardless of WoW, older, less patient, and want to get things done faster so as to avoid taking 10 months to level (want to not be tied to one game for 10 months). It varies.

I do think that WoW had a very negative impact on the MMO space in terms of game design, but I also think that there is more than one legit playstyle and not everyone likes to explore and wander without having prepared themselves with knowledge first. Yes, it's a "gamey-er" way to play, but these are games, and these are gamers -- many like playing in a "gamey" way.

Gohlar

I think it's funny to see people who failed in WoW. You can tell who they are because they still aren't over it.

wrlifeboil

fehu777 wrote: »

Hello!

I've been playing for a few days now and following the game for much longer and time after time I see a common theme in some of the post and videos on the internet.

Players are complaining about the lack of convenience , a few examples are the size of the pvp area and the lack of numbers showing damage done.

This is interesting to me because I very much so enjoy the absence of
"spoon feeding" in ESO.

Every accomplishment feels more enjoyable and worth while because it took more effort to achieve.

In the past I have witnessed the "watering down" of games that I loved and its a sad experience to go through = (

If any reader feels that they are in opposition to this overview I would be interested in hearing you out as to why you feel this way.

Probably in part. As the most successful mmo on the planet, WoW sets the standard for all mmos. It is the responsibility of new mmos to meet and beat that standard if they want to attract WoW-type players. If a new mmo doesn't 'agree' to those standards, they have to convince gamers that taking their mmo in a different direction with different features is better. Otherwise gamers have no reason to switch.

It's like smartphones. Phone manufacturers have to convince potential consumers that their 'new and improved' smartphone is better than the one they were selling last year or else consumers won't have a reason to upgrade or to switch from another company's smartphone.

lioslinn

wrlifeboil wrote: »

As the most successful mmo on the planet, WoW sets the standard for all mmos. It is the responsibility of new mmos to meet and beat that standard if they want to attract WoW-type players. If a new mmo doesn't 'agree' to those standards, they have to convince gamers that taking their mmo in a different direction with different features is better. Otherwise gamers have no reason to switch.

*facepalm* I disagree. It's us as consumers that run the show. If people were more adventurous and willing to try different things, then companies that dare go against the standard would actually have a chance. But people have become so cynical and in a hurry that within days of a release the WoW comparisons pour like rain.

I wish people would just think out of the box instead of always expecting the same old tired game. There are lots of interesting, original MMOs out there that most people would never dare try because they're... different. But companies don't dare stray too far from the familiar business model. It's like we've become so conditioned by generic themepark MMOs we can't accept anything else. Like that video listed earlier proposed, I think sandbox settings are the future as they give more room to player creativity and initiative. I also have fond memories of SWG, creating and running our own city etc. I've seen people build wonders in Terraria etc.

I have young kids and can play an hour a day if I'm lucky. I still don't think that means I expect instant gratification or to optimize my gameplay. (I don't get how people feel gratified to pay 60$ for a game then zoom through it in a few days, how that strokes their ego somehow but hey that's a topic in itself I agree that WoW opened the doors to the MMO world to a wider audience, hence people are less interested in socializing. But then why bother playing at all, vs a single player, to show off your l33t skills? *shrug*

There are other great MMOs out there. I've recently discovered the secret world. Modern setting, no levels or classes, engaging storyline, vivid interesting NPCs and *gasp* quests that you have to think to solve! No hand holding, dumbly following quest markers etc. People there are soooo friendly and laidback, as I hadn't seen since 'the good old days of EQ1'. I'm starting to think MMOs are finally starting to split into niche markets and older 'seen it all' gamers are quietly migrating to these games and letting the masses dwell in themeparks.

I'm patiently tolerating all of the d00ds in the game because sadly a MMO of this size needs a bigger playerbase to grow. But I don't see Zenimax moving away from the standard themepark to a more niche market, they wouldn't dare peeve off their playerbase. I just hope they don't cave in and keep the few items that make ESO different.

disclosure: I've played most MMOs out there since UO, even worked on one in university and never liked WoW. As a previous poster said so well it's definitely the fast food of MMOs. Popular because it reached a wider audience but NOT because it's good, unique or high quality. I wonder if it had never existed, if companies would be more bold in their risk taking and we would have more varied games now, or it MMOs would have remained a smaller niche hobby and so attract less $$$

Robbiejuve

To the original question, absolutely not. People right now are upset about really basic MMO functionality that should be the bread and butter of all MMO's. Stuff that has nothing to do with bells and whistles that other MMOs have added.

As we saw today, failing to patch the game correctly
A silly maintenance schedule
Not being prepared for day 1 gold spammers
No search box in guild store

And to some of the comments, why are you comparing this to vanilla wow. Do car manufacturers produce cars based on specs from 10 years ago?

Dont copy your competitors but learn from their mistakes.

Thete

SuperScrubby wrote: »

I don't know what came first the chicken or the egg in this instance, but I feel similar to Hawtsauce. People are bigger *** now, I personally saw the change when I played some WoW and during that generation. I don't know if the game lead to that kind of widespread behavior becoming acceptable or if the game just happened to amass a larger group due to the penetration that game had into the common household.

The egg came first. I'm always having to explain that to my students.

Also, WoW didn't do anything to support the behaviour you describe. It's the simple fact that you have people who can say and do what they like without consequences. I could say that such behaviour has been around since the first internet forums, but it goes back even further than that.

It's the same thing that causes people to rant and rave at others from the safety of their cars. They'd never shout and swear at people going slower than them on a busy high street because they'd get a smack in the mouth.

End of the day most people are arseholes who, given the chance to be arsholes without consequences, will duly indulge.

AlchemyDevil

Unfortunately it's already in the process of happening, challenging bosses have already been nerfed into a simple faceroll game from level 1 - 50, you and I both know those same unskilled crying players are going to whine about the Veteran content very soon and then we will be playing a game we can beat in a week or two. It's sad but they have already started catering to the players that are unwilling to learn game mechanics and tactics, the rest of the game will be next on the nerf list. As other whiners have stated in other threads, it's more financially viable to them to make the content accessible to everyone as the alternative is teaching people how to play.

rager82b14_ESO

AlchemyDevil wrote: »

Unfortunately it's already in the process of happening, challenging bosses have already been nerfed into a simple faceroll game from level 1 - 50, you and I both know those same unskilled crying players are going to whine about the Veteran content very soon and then we will be playing a game we can beat in a week or two. It's sad but they have already started catering to the players that are unwilling to learn game mechanics and tactics, the rest of the game will be next on the nerf list. As other whiners have stated in other threads, it's more financially viable to them to make the content accessible to everyone as the alternative is teaching people how to play.

Sounds like my type of game. Not every thing has to be tough or require effort to be fun. I can do it either way.

Either way, nerfs are going to happen balance will happen. Things will become easier or harder. It just the nature of a mmo. I don't mind either or.

KerinKor

fehu777 wrote: »

If any reader feels that they are in opposition to this overview I would be interested in hearing you out as to why you feel this way.

Sneering and deriding WOW is easy, many do it, most who do simply look foolish and shallow.

Fact is some games have tried to be different .. FFXIV V1 for example had a multi-classing system which was hugely flexible, and was shouted down by the 'vets' who demanded the 'trinity' or nothing.

I have no idea what "spoon feeding" has to do with the presence of damage numbers and why you feel more 'accomplished' because in this game you whack away at something with no idea how effective you are.

I am certainly not a min/maxer and abhor the depth of 'theorycrafting' some descend to, but there is some information whose absence seriously affects one's ability to play as well as one can: lack of buff/debuff feedback, lack of damge done/taken,. etc. basic battle mechanics.

Gwarok

So many quotes to quote that I agree on but not enough room for them all

.

Today we mourn the passing of our beloved old friend, Common Sense, who
has been with us for many years. No one knows for sure how old he was,
since his birth records were long ago lost in the bureaucratic red tape of Oblivion.
He will be remembered as having cultivated such valuable lessons as:

- Knowing when to come in out of the rain;
- Learning to re-spec
- Why the early bird doesn't always gets the worm;
- Life isn't always fair;
- And maybe it was my fault.

Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial policies (don't spend
more than you can earn) and reliable strategies (adults, not children,
are in charge). His health began to deteriorate rapidly when well-intentioned but overbearing regulations were set in place.

Common Sense also took a beating when he couldn't defend himself from a
Dadrea in his own home because it was so OP. Sadly, Common Sense finally gave up the will to live.


Common Sense was preceded in death,
- by his parents, Truth and Trust,
- by his sister, Respect
- by his wife, Discretion,
- by his daughter, Responsibility,
- by his son, Reason.
- by his grandmother, Sound Judgement
- and by his grandfather, Future Planning

He is survived by his 8 evil stepsisters;
- But I'm Entitled
- I Know My Rights
- I Want It Now
- It Wasn't Me
- Someone Else Is To Blame
- I'm Offended
- I'm A Victim
- It Needs 2 B NRFT
Not very many people attended his funeral because so few realized he was gone...

May Common Sense rest in peace.


/SARCASM off.

PF1901

lioslinn wrote: »

wrlifeboil wrote: »

As the most successful mmo on the planet, WoW sets the standard for all mmos. It is the responsibility of new mmos to meet and beat that standard if they want to attract WoW-type players. If a new mmo doesn't 'agree' to those standards, they have to convince gamers that taking their mmo in a different direction with different features is better. Otherwise gamers have no reason to switch.

*facepalm* I disagree. It's us as consumers that run the show. If people were more adventurous and willing to try different things, then companies that dare go against the standard would actually have a chance. But people have become so cynical and in a hurry that within days of a release the WoW comparisons pour like rain.

I wish people would just think out of the box instead of always expecting the same old tired game. There are lots of interesting, original MMOs out there that most people would never dare try because they're... different. But companies don't dare stray too far from the familiar business model. It's like we've become so conditioned by generic themepark MMOs we can't accept anything else. Like that video listed earlier proposed, I think sandbox settings are the future as they give more room to player creativity and initiative. I also have fond memories of SWG, creating and running our own city etc. I've seen people build wonders in Terraria etc.

I have young kids and can play an hour a day if I'm lucky. I still don't think that means I expect instant gratification or to optimize my gameplay. (I don't get how people feel gratified to pay 60$ for a game then zoom through it in a few days, how that strokes their ego somehow but hey that's a topic in itself I agree that WoW opened the doors to the MMO world to a wider audience, hence people are less interested in socializing. But then why bother playing at all, vs a single player, to show off your l33t skills? *shrug*

There are other great MMOs out there. I've recently discovered the secret world. Modern setting, no levels or classes, engaging storyline, vivid interesting NPCs and *gasp* quests that you have to think to solve! No hand holding, dumbly following quest markers etc. People there are soooo friendly and laidback, as I hadn't seen since 'the good old days of EQ1'. I'm starting to think MMOs are finally starting to split into niche markets and older 'seen it all' gamers are quietly migrating to these games and letting the masses dwell in themeparks.

I'm patiently tolerating all of the d00ds in the game because sadly a MMO of this size needs a bigger playerbase to grow. But I don't see Zenimax moving away from the standard themepark to a more niche market, they wouldn't dare peeve off their playerbase. I just hope they don't cave in and keep the few items that make ESO different.

disclosure: I've played most MMOs out there since UO, even worked on one in university and never liked WoW. As a previous poster said so well it's definitely the fast food of MMOs. Popular because it reached a wider audience but NOT because it's good, unique or high quality. I wonder if it had never existed, if companies would be more bold in their risk taking and we would have more varied games now, or it MMOs would have remained a smaller niche hobby and so attract less $$$

Thank you!

Morthur

.

Stautmeister

Played wow from 2006 to 2013, cleared Deathwing on 10 man heroic before they made it more accessible (which i think is a great mechanic to let a larger part of the playerbase experience content)
However i noticed that i wasnt playing for gameplay reasons, i played because i enjoyed hanging out with my fellow guildmembers, having fun on teamspeak.
At the highest level of raiding wow was nothing more than min/maxing your stats, musclememory and encounterknowledge.
Themeparkwise though they gave you A LOT to do, and i still feel its one of the best themepark mmos out there, i spend literally hours doing nothing. Which is great if a game can make you spend time like that!

What i enjoy about ESO though is (i play without any mods for a pure experience) Is that i have to pay constant attention to my surroundings (chests are actually valuable and recourses relatively rare) i cant afk hit more than 1 monster, il die.

Most quests here are like the legendary rogue questline in cataclysm and i think that is a big step forward for the MMO genre in general.

playing as a tank, even if i know the inns and outs of a fight, i still have to jungle stam/magicka, decide when to block, accept, roll, kite and position.
This level of "skill" (which i think it is) requirement i find to be amazing.

Combine WoWs themepark idea's with esos storytelling and game mechanics and i think you got an amazing game

Morthur

.

Shimond

kstauthamerb16_ESO wrote: »

Combine WoWs themepark idea's with esos storytelling and game mechanics and i think you got an amazing game

Completely disagree. The 'themepark' design behind WOW is the main reason I no longer play it (I can actually deal with dated graphics, gameplay is king). There was no sense of exploration or adventure, it was all 'to do this, click this button to join a queue for it and get your rewards'. Basically slot machine gameplay. No thanks. Instant gratification has brought in a tremendous amount of people (it always does) but hasn't evolved the genre at all.

Distrobomb

This is basically WoW in a different coating. They may try to appeal to some TES fanboys by throwing a nord on the cover, but I'm smart enough to see through it. This game feels no more achieving for me than when I got my thousandth gnome kill in WoW pvp. Some people really need to get over themselves. It's sickening. Everyone board the train towards F2P. . . it's coming

Shimond

Distrobomb wrote: »

This is basically WoW in a different coating

Either you've never played WOW before or you're not playing ESO.

Gohlar

Shimond wrote: »

Completely disagree. The 'themepark' design behind WOW is the main reason I no longer play it (I can actually deal with dated graphics, gameplay is king).

ESO is extremely theme park right down to listing the attractions on the map.

Distrobomb wrote: »

This is basically WoW in a different coating. They may try to appeal to some TES fanboys by throwing a nord on the cover, but I'm smart enough to see through it. This game feels no more achieving for me than when I got my thousandth gnome kill in WoW pvp. Some people really need to get over themselves. It's sickening. Everyone board the train towards F2P. . . it's coming

I agree and am also surprised people are trying to pretend otherwise. It's actually a good enough game to not go F2P, but they seem very intent on shoving solo questing down everyone's throat and that's going to be a problem.

Distrobomb

Shimond wrote: »

Either you've never played WOW before or you're not playing ESO.

Get quest, kill monsters, turn in quest. Did I miss something?

Shimond

Gohlar wrote: »

ESO is extremely theme park right down to listing the attractions on the map.

You might have a point if the majority of them appeared before you got in range of them.

Since they don't...

knightblaster

lioslinn wrote: »

I have young kids and can play an hour a day if I'm lucky. I still don't think that means I expect instant gratification or to optimize my gameplay. (I don't get how people feel gratified to pay 60$ for a game then zoom through it in a few days, how that strokes their ego somehow but hey that's a topic in itself I agree that WoW opened the doors to the MMO world to a wider audience, hence people are less interested in socializing. But then why bother playing at all, vs a single player, to show off your l33t skills? *shrug*

I think that MMO players have different motives. Some are explorers, just wanting to look around and pick the flowers, live in a virtual world. Some are socializers, and primarily like the interaction with other people in a virtual setting. The "gamer" types, however, are more numerous than these in the post-WoW context, and by and large from what I have observed over the past 10 years or so in the MMO space is that the primary motives of these players are greed, pride and envy. These are powerful motivators, and a game which is designed to stoke them, like WoW is, can really hook them in. But I think you need to understand that these motives are powerful, and are widespread among the MMO playerbase of 2014.

I'm starting to think MMOs are finally starting to split into niche markets and older 'seen it all' gamers are quietly migrating to these games and letting the masses dwell in themeparks.

Already has happened, to some degree, but the problem is making money from games that are expensive to produce if they will only have a very small niche group of fans playing them. That's not really sustainable as a business model, at least not unless you get a nice big bang of cash from the initial sell. The market is fragmented, and will continue to be so, outside of WoW. There are just too many games, and too many people, and only one that has the kind of "switching cost" power that WoW does. However, what that's really leading to is more games going off the subscription model, because players today are also a lot less willing to commit, given all the options available, in terms of a subscription to any one game, other than WoW.

I wonder if it had never existed, if companies would be more bold in their risk taking and we would have more varied games now, or it MMOs would have remained a smaller niche hobby and so attract less $$$

It would have been different, but gaming in general has also ballooned over the same period. It would not have played out the same way, but MMOs would also not have remained a small niche space, either, given the growth of broadband internet over the same time period, and the general drive to monetize gaming over that pipe in a larger scale way.

Gohlar

Shimond wrote: »

Gohlar wrote: »

ESO is extremely theme park right down to listing the attractions on the map.

You might have a point if the majority of them appeared before you got in range of them.

Since they don't...

It's still obvious theme park design. WoW maps didn't uncover until you went there. ESO is setup no differently. Why pretend otherwise?

ESO is straight up theme park.