Please Stop Trivializing Content

SuperScrubby

If you aren't using self heal skills in this game then that's the problem right there. Makes content a breeze.

Neferath

Seriously guys, of course i can understand that it can be frustrating if you aren't able to kill the one or other quest related boss right the moment you encounter him. But there is actually one reason for this to happen in most cases.

People grind through this game without learning how to properly set up their skill bar or even worse, to use the right skill at the right moment since they don't even read the skill description.

One of the main reasons for this to happen, is that this game is allready too easy and therefor doesn't "force" you to learn your skills during the casual gameplay.
The result is always the same. Players start to use a single skill the whole time since they learned that this is enough to kill every single mob they encounter.

Once they end up at a boss mob that requires some more "thinking" about what to use at what moment, they get into trouble and start to complain about the overall difficulty of boss mobs.

The only way to solve this problem without nerving the game to death like Sony did with Star Wars Galaxies or Blizzard did with WoW, is to keep the generel difficulty at a somewhat high pace right from the beginning of the game in order to force players to "actually learn" how to proper set up their two skillbars and to use those skills.

All these calls for nerving several bosses or the overall difficulty of this game will only result in the same disaster that games like SWG, WoW or SWTOR and countless others allready experienced.

Morgha_Kul

What I mean is, if you're finding content too easy, you might try deliberately gimping yourself - for your own enjoyment.

I did exactly this in Star Trek Online. Most of the players there are scrambling, grinding for months on end to get the uber-elite fleet gear that makes Borg cubes melt in 2.2 seconds. I, on the other hand, am still using basic gear most other players consider vendor trash. My characters in most ground missions are using Mk I gear (ie L1-10) for L50 content. I sometimes use that Tier 1 starship in L50 content. Why? To challenge MYSELF.

They have to make the game easy enough that MOST people can enjoy the content. If that's too easy for you, you can do things to make it more difficult for yourself without costing everyone else their enjoyment. That's all I'm suggesting.

As ever, though, there is a balance point to be achieved, because you still have to challenge people. Making it challenging to MOST people will inevitably leave SOME people unable to enjoy it. As I said before, it's a balancing act.

NordJitsu

@Morgha_Kul‌

Like I said, I was in gear 8 levels below me. And it was random gear. Mix of light medium and heavy.

depw87rwb17_ESO

There is probably a middle ground here. Leveling content has to be a learning experience, yes. But I don't believe for a second that "sink or swim" is an appropriate learning method, certainly not for a game. I think that TESO can please the moderates of both crowds, but it should not cater to either extreme.

In his book Outliers: The Story of Success, Malcolm Gladwell provides an interesting anecdote that might apply here.

He talks about experiments conducted by Alan Schoenfeld, a math professor at Berkeley who studied hundreds of people as they tried various problem-solving activities. Schoenfeld is discussing the case of a nurse named Renee as she tried to solve a relatively basic math problem provided by a computer program:

Twenty-two minutes pass from the moment Renee begins playing with the computer program to the moment she says, “Ahhhh. That means something now.” That’s a long time. “This is eighth-grade mathematics,” Schoenfeld said. “If I put the average eighth grader in the same position as Renee, I’m guessing that after the first few attempts, they would have said, ‘I don’t get it. I need you to explain it.’” Schoenfeld once asked a group of high school students how long they would work on a homework question before they concluded it was too hard for them ever to solve. Their answers ranged from thirty seconds to five minutes, with the average answer two minutes.

When you look at that data in the context of an MMO, how many people are Renee? I suspect not many. Maybe we're not all the eight-graders either, but playing this game isn't homework: it's an activity that's completely optional and we're paying to perform. Repeated failure is not always going to result in folks persisting until they succeed: it might very well result in them becoming frustrated and leaving. Maybe if you're opinionated, and not very far-sighted, this might seem glorious... but it's bad business.

That said, there's no denying that some people are like Renee, and this game should cater to them by having challenging elder-game content. Leveling can provide the foundations people need to improve their play enough to survive elder-game content, but I don't think it should be so hard that people quit in frustration in significant numbers. That's just bound to hurt the game's growth, and nobody should want that.

Sakiri

Alandauron wrote: »

@NordJitsu, this is a lost cause it seems. Gaming isn't what it used to be. Everyone wants to have everything spoon fed to them so they can get to the end and simply move on. This is what's wrong with MMOs of today, if they can't quickly grind to maximum level and easily roll over everything in the game then it's too hard.

This IS NOT a debate on what gaming is, it's a debate on how lazy people have become and how horribly entitled they think they are. I miss the challenge that used to come from gaming, but others just want to buy a fully leveled character and not ever face a challenge.

I don't like the idea of grouping on these solo progression points but honestly I would prefer that over what they are currently doing and nerfing everything to the point of uselessness. As long as they make it a mechanic where you HAVE to invite them in the instance with you and I can't have a bunch of randoms running in there with me.

This isnt a case of "lazy" or not, and its not a case of "spoon fed" anything. That argument is rubbish.

Games are played for entertainment. Everyone has different tolerances for frustration. Frustration is not fun. Seeing someone frustrated with something and no matter what you do you *cant* help them by talking isnt fun either. As the family "IT guy" with a mostly techno-idiot family(Mom couldnt figure out why her computer wouldnt turn on one day... it wasnt plugged in...) trying to explain things to people that need to see it done to emulate is a pain in the arse.

This is the main quest line. EVERYONE IS EXPECTED TO BE ABLE TO COMPLETE IT.

There are people leaving because its too frustrating to be fun.

No one here is asking for an auto win. You still have to do the fight. You wanting it to be PTS level unforgiving is just as bad to me as "spoon fed" to you.

And Ill say this: obviously completion rates on PTS werent as ZOS wanted them or they wouldnt have changed it.

Sakiri

reignfyre wrote: »

I would LOVE to find an MMO where I couldn't defeat most if not all bosses on my first attempt. My vanilla WoW guild was terrible, but we died over and over to each boss leading up to Magmadar and had FUN when those suckers finally went down and we perfected our strategy. Plus on Sargeras the PVP action just trying to get to the dungeon was HIGH LARRY US.

This game, on the other hand, is a snooze fest.

I want vanilla WoW back. Srsly.

As a vanilla wow raid leader:

I dont. Got sick of the challenge being gear checks and cat herding. Fights were mostly boring.

EQ2 had fights that went uncompleted worldwide until the level cap went up when I played last. And its f2p. Have at it.

Sakiri

Milanna wrote: »

@‌AngryNord

I get what you are saying, I am at that point myself. I went in, got killed by Mannimarco and his ***** skeletons a few times at level 21.

I decided I need a few more levels before tackling him again. I have nearly finished Grathwood at 24 and I am giving Manni another go at 25.
I believe I have improved my gameplay and I hope I will do better this time.

Why not do the same? You dont HAVE to do it at lvl 20-21.

Later quests you *cant* outlevel. Final story quest you get right around vr1.

For the record, I found Bal easier than Manni.

Sakiri

kirnmalidus wrote: »

I beat Molag Bal last night. I’m not sure if he’s been nerfed yet, because this was the first time I fought him.

It took me two tries to beat him, so not super difficult to the point that I was dying repeatedly and about to give up, but not a total pushover either. I was so close on the first try I buckled down and made another run at him right away.

When I beat him I felt like I had actually accomplished something, that I had overcome a serious challenge. I had so much adrenaline coursing through me I was literally shaking (and had been during the fight too, which made getting actives off in time a bit difficult). I had a couple of friends over who also play the game and they were watching me fight and cheering me on. And that’s how beating a game should be.

At this rate we are going to have VR players who point out “I beat boss XX before date YY when they nerfed him.” And when it comes down to teaming up with players to run group dungeons, those are the guys I want on my team.

To everyone suggesting they just allow grouping for these quests, no. Just no. As many people have pointed out (and you have mostly ignored), whether you make it mandatory or not is irrelevant. If taking a friend to fiend Molag Bal had been an option I would’ve been stupid not to. If something isn’t mandatory, but it is foolish to the point of stupidity not to do it, it is basically mandatory.

Finally, I play a Nightblade (and have bought every available skill to date in two crafting lines), so everyone crying about the class is too difficult or broken/bugged… nope. I think everyone complaining about this has probably never looked at the Siphoning skill tree and the self heals available there.

Bal was one shot and I have four fully maxed crafting skills on a dw dk.

Doesnt mean Im special.

Chirru

I completely and utterly disagree with the OP.
You want a hardcore game... introduce perma - death.
I wonder what all you yea - Sayers would do then?

So you beat the boss after being defeated several times?
Defeat means your char is DEAD!
YOU LOST! Game is over!

Allow the average...not so Elite-players some room.
Best would be to introduce a two or three Tiers system where you
Game Nerds can show off...best with Achievement rank list list and all such.
better even... demand that your Characters get a Halo so everyone can see how uber you are. And next demand every not so uber player bowing down to you.

yes...the above is tongue in cheek... however, stop trivializing the players who are not so game - savvy.

Now go and beat the crap out of a Boss and then brag about it.

pknecron

Anyone who has finished the game already needs to get a life, and try doing something other than power-grinding through the game as fast as they can, and then bitching that it is too easy.

UnderKingRhun

it is certainly easier than it was in beta, but there is the odd spike in difficulty , damn harvesters. Not sure how a random elite can be harder than a quest arcs last boss, Heard Mannimarco was a tough fight from other guildies, had food and pots ready to face him...aaaand he died in like 10 seconds. even worse? Molag bal, i was expecting a really tough fight, granted i already hit vet 1 by the time i faced him but i was still in a mixture of lvl45-50 blues and purples.I was saving my wolf ulti to rolfstomp him, but he went down so quickly. I'm enjoying vet content, but why cant every encounter be as challenging? the casual folk coming into vet from leveling 1-50 are going to have a tough time.

Eccentric

I streamrolled through the content fairly quick the first week, one-shotting both Mannimarco and Molag Bal. I got more than a decade of experience in MMOs, so it was not really hard to figure out what to pick from skills and gear to level up with. Still I consider the leveling-content difficulty to be harder than most other MMOs out there.

People who actually QQ and *** about content being too easy are just being elitist scumbags. I seriously doubt less experienced and casual players will breeze through the content. Still waiting for my younger sister to get her face smashed in by Molag Bal.

Remember, reaching level 50 is only 1/3 of the leveling-content. Veteran ranks zones and especially Veteran Dungeons have proven to be a whole lot of fun.

LonePirate

There is no way people one-shot Manninarco in the level 40 quest or Molag Bal in the level 50 quest. Both have far too much HP and there is not a weapon or skill in the game that does enough damage to kill them with a single shot, not even using a maximized Vampire Sorceror with VR 10 gear and Magicka stats. What is with the desire to post such fabrications? Surely nobody believes this nonsense.

NordJitsu

LonePirate wrote: »

There is no way people one-shot Manninarco in the level 40 quest or Molag Bal in the level 50 quest. Both have far too much HP and there is not a weapon or skill in the game that does enough damage to kill them with a single shot, not even using a maximized Vampire Sorceror with VR 10 gear and Magicka stats. What is with the desire to post such fabrications? Surely nobody believes this nonsense.

Ya I don't get it either. There's no way anyone did that.

knaveofengland

yes the harder the game the longer people will pay for it and say MORE I want more,if general terms game is on medium to hard mode then more would form teams going lower questing, team play in mmos is only for dungeons and end lvl and pvp .
so it be a nice change for lower lvl team play
many thanks

South_of_Heaven

LonePirate wrote: »

There is no way people one-shot Manninarco in the level 40 quest or Molag Bal in the level 50 quest. Both have far too much HP and there is not a weapon or skill in the game that does enough damage to kill them with a single shot, not even using a maximized Vampire Sorceror with VR 10 gear and Magicka stats. What is with the desire to post such fabrications? Surely nobody believes this nonsense.

They obviously mean "beat on the first try", not in one hit...

LonePirate

South_of_Heaven wrote: »

They obviously mean "beat on the first try", not in one hit...

This is much more believable. Word choice is important, people!

Tatuaje

A lot of good points said on both sides here.... But I am with the OP. I am here due to my last MMO going soft and giving away the game. I also have no desire to grin my way to 50 just to get decent content. 1,2,3,4,5, is not a fun way to play.

South_of_Heaven

It's not about casual and hardcore players. I am a casual player and I am really amazed by how some people think they must get everything without any effort at all. And the effort needed is ridiculous. Only a couple of bosses are remotely difficult - one is a legendary necromancer and the other a bloody daedric prince. This is about some people who wish to play farmville vs everyone else.

"Mmo experience" and such silly claims are ridiculous - none needs to have any mmo experience whatsoever to play this game. The only thing one needs it to think and "solve" very easy problems - ones that a monkey could solve, like "stay out of the red area" or "block when you see a charged attack".
Or most importantly things like this: "I have all these skills at my disposal, which ones should I use?", "Since I die easily, should I perhaps use something that heals me"? You don't need mmo experience for such things you only need common sense.

Unfortunately many refuse to think or try, others refuse to retreat, get more levels and return there again and complain here on the forums instead expecting instant first-try rewards.

This is the only truth that none of these easily frustrated people will admit.
Actually some have in these forums, after creating a whole thread and drama complaining about the impossibility of a fight, they have returned to the thread after a few hours and said "hey, it was not that difficult after all, I just had to do that thing".

Tatuaje wrote: »

A lot of good points said on both sides here.... But I am with the OP. I am here due to my last MMO going soft and giving away the game. I also have no desire to grin my way to 50 just to get decent content. 1,2,3,4,5, is not a fun way to play.

Save for 2-3 main quest bosses I could beat everything by only spamming an aoe. It is truly, truly amazing how people claim the game is remotely difficult.

NordJitsu

South_of_Heaven wrote: »

It's not about casual and hardcore players. I am a casual player and I am really amazed by how some people think they must get everything without any effort at all. And the effort needed is ridiculous. Only a couple of bosses are remotely difficult - one is a legendary necromancer and the other a bloody daedric prince. This is about some people who wish to play farmville vs everyone else.

"Mmo experience" and such silly claims are ridiculous - none needs to have any mmo experience whatsoever to play this game. The only thing one needs it to think and "solve" very easy problems - ones that a monkey could solve, like "stay out of the red area" or "block when you see a charged attack".
Or most importantly things like this: "I have all these skills at my disposal, which ones should I use?", "Since I die easily, should I perhaps use something that heals me"? You don't need mmo experience for such things you only need common sense.

Unfortunately many refuse to think or try, others refuse to retreat, get more levels and return there again and complain here on the forums instead expecting instant first-try rewards.

This is the only truth that none of these easily frustrated people will admit.
Actually some have in these forums, after creating a whole thread and drama complaining about the impossibility of a fight, they have returned to the thread after a few hours and said "hey, it was not that difficult after all, I just had to do that thing".

Tatuaje wrote: »

A lot of good points said on both sides here.... But I am with the OP. I am here due to my last MMO going soft and giving away the game. I also have no desire to grin my way to 50 just to get decent content. 1,2,3,4,5, is not a fun way to play.

Save for 2-3 main quest bosses I could beat everything by only spamming an aoe. It is truly, truly amazing how people claim the game is remotely difficult.

This post is full of win.

LonePirate

South_of_Heaven wrote: »

Save for 2-3 main quest bosses I could beat everything by only spamming an aoe. It is truly, truly amazing how people claim the game is remotely difficult.

You cannot defeat a troll simply by spamming an AoE. Would you care to revise your statement?

Lanatireb17_ESO

Dont mind him. he hasnt even reached VR yet, he has no idea what he is talking about.

NicoleOnyxheart

i just fought mannimarco recently, and i had quite a bit of trouble with him, he wiped me about 6 or 7 times before i was able to (barely) eke out a win. and i was outleveled as well (i believe 45-47 at the time)

venom arrow saved my ass, once i figured out his pattern, cause it interrupts the channel ability he has.

i'm no slouch in active combat, i fight and kill other players regularly in pvp, so being wiped one on one against mannimarco...i don't really see how he's that easy to beat.

Lanatireb17_ESO

NicoleOnyxheart wrote: »

i just fought mannimarco recently, and i had quite a bit of trouble with him, he wiped me about 6 or 7 times before i was able to (barely) eke out a win. and i was outleveled as well (i believe 45-47 at the time)

venom arrow saved my ass, once i figured out his pattern, cause it interrupts the channel ability he has.

i'm no slouch in active combat, i fight and kill other players regularly in pvp, so being wiped one on one against mannimarco...i don't really see how he's that easy to beat.

Playing a Nightblade?

martinhpb16_ESO

Agree with OP

Challenge is good. I actually tried doshia about 6 times, came back a couple of levels later and got the balance just right. killed her using skill not with ease.

One thing me I and my friends have liked so far is that you can die.

wastelanderer

I think defense system is broken/bugged, because it don't work, it's a same thing if you wear armor or not, making a tank is not possible if defense don't work.
Because of this it's hard to play.

Kendaric

wastelanderer wrote: »

I think defense system is broken/bugged, because it don't work, it's a same thing if you wear armor or not, making a tank is not possible if defense don't work.
Because of this it's hard to play.

It's not really broken in the literal sense, it seems related to lag as blocking and dodging often doesn't register. This, of course, adds to the frustration.

Milanna

Sakiri wrote: »

Later quests you *cant* outlevel. Final story quest you get right around vr1.

For the record, I found Bal easier than Manni.

Sure, but this is a new game. I am not that skilled at it... yet

When facing later content I will be a better player, perhaps that was why you found Bal easier?

kirnmalidus

Sakiri wrote: »

Bal was one shot and I have four fully maxed crafting skills on a dw dk.

Doesnt mean Im special.

I think you missed my point. Because it was that I'm not special, and it wasn't that hard.