Please Stop Trivializing Content

Daggers

Excellent post OP, agree with you 110%.

We're all a little different in what we like, and maybe some of us older gamers (and I know I'm not just speaking for myself in these forums) like to reminisce over how games used to be, only to be told "nostalgia isn't all it's cracked up to be".

Pen & Paper RPGs were never easy games, and early MMORPGs reflected that. It's not just about difficulty, it's challenge and reward. And when you have an open world to explore, the experience is so much more thrilling if the world is dangerous, and every new turn could lead you to places where you suddenly feel the need to run as fast as you can, or turn-tail.

The atmosphere that comes with those feelings can't be replicated in a world made of soft cushions and padded walls.

It's too much to ask these days, but wouldn't it be nice to have a server that caters to RPG -- not just in the in-character sense, but one where you really care (and think hard) about what you do, because it's a journey and has all the things that make journeys interesting - friendships forged in fire.

As opposed to a public dungeon filled with people churning through everything so fast you don't even get a chance to have a proper 1-on-1 fight half the time.

As I say, we're all a little different and I'm sure mine isn't the best fit concept for everyone, but sadly this is the price we pay - commercial design targets the broadest common denominator, so we're all minorities these days.

Custos91

Sry, I just did the last Mage guild last quest with 5 lvl less then required, would have done the same with the fighters guild quest, but the pinions were bugged...
The game is perhaps not easy, but you can solve you problems^^
And:
If a boss seems impossible, just try resto staff and kite it, works better than the 3 dps and the 1 tank build I tried^^

Kendaric

Custos91 wrote: »

And:
If a boss seems impossible, just try resto staff and kite it, works better than the 3 dps and the 1 tank build I tried^^

That can't and shouldn't be the solution, however.

There needs to be some sort of middle ground that can be found. Personally, my preferance would be to allow grouping for the currently solo bosses. Even with reduced loot/exp (scaled down by the number of helpers you have).
NPC hirelings would be another option, provided the NPC AI can be made to work properly. That way, it would be possible to get a healer NPC for those who lack self-heals.

Lorgren_Benirus

Please ignore anything what the OP said, this is a game and I play it for entertainment. If OP wants a challenge then do something real, like in real world and not in a game. Go run a marathon or something.

NordJitsu

With all do respect @Lorgren_Benirus‌ you don't know what a game is. Games are about over coming challenges. They always have been, since the days of Space Invaders, Super Mario, Sonic, ect. ect.

Games are about you dying over and over until you learn how not to die. The satisfaction comes from self improvement.

All those studies that show that video games improve cognition and motor function? Ya, that only works if the game is challenging.

If you want passive entertainment then you should go watch a movie or read a book. Video games are interactive entertainment and challenge is vital to keeping them interesting. People like yourself who want everything handed to you for nothing are destroying the medium.

South_of_Heaven

NordJitsu wrote: »

With all do respect @Lorgren_Benirus‌ you don't know what a game is. Games are about over coming challenges. They always have been, since the days of Space Invaders, Super Mario, Sonic, ect. ect.

Games are about you dying over and over until you learn how not to die. The satisfaction comes from self improvement.

All those studies that show that video games improve cognition and motor function? Ya, that only works if the game is challenging.

If you want passive entertainment then you should go watch a movie or read a book. Video games are interactive entertainment and challenge is vital to keeping them interesting. People like yourself who want everything handed to you for nothing are destroying the medium.

Couldn't have explained it better.

I believe some people have gotten used to certain facebook "games" like farmville etc a little too much and believe games are supposed to offer instant gratification and passive entertainment. On top of that they almost always bring up how challenging real life is like it somehow backs their argument about wanting a challenge-less, effortless, spoon feeding gaming experience.

As it was mentioned there are other means of passive entertainment - games have always been about interactivity. And unfortunately in this game, save for a couple of main quest bosses, all the rest of the fights only require spamming a button - so much for interactivity. Hope VRs are better in that regard.

Morgha_Kul

NordJitsu wrote: »

With all do respect @Lorgren_Benirus‌ you don't know what a game is. Games are about over coming challenges. They always have been, since the days of Space Invaders, Super Mario, Sonic, ect. ect.

This is true to some extent, but it's only half of the picture. If you charted it on a graph (X axis is difficulty, Y axis if "fun"), you would get an inverted U. If it's too easy, and there's no fun. Likewise, if it's too hard, there's no fun. You have to try to get closer to the middle where the U peaks.

The problem with this is that not everyone has the same capabilities. For instance, if you played the original Heavy Gear game, you may remember the scenario that included jumping up onto moving boxes to reach the top of a room (apparently to fight a final boss). I sat at the console for over 16 straight hours, jumping, jumping, jumping and falling. I never finished that mission. My friend Brad completed it on his first attempt. It's just not something I'm good at. On the other hand, I can solve puzzles with the best of them.

The jumping thing was just too difficult for me, so it was simply not fun - FOR ME. Brad found it somewhat entertaining, though. So what were the developers to do? If they make it easy enough for me to do, Brad might not enjoy it - as much.

This is the crux of the issue. If something is too hard, there will be those who CANNOT complete it. If it's too easy, it may not be any more fun, but at least everyone CAN complete it. In my mind, that's better. The problem is to make things easy enough without being too easy.

It's a hard thing to accomplish.

Leovolao

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

With all do respect @Lorgren_Benirus‌ you don't know what a game is. Games are about over coming challenges. They always have been, since the days of Space Invaders, Super Mario, Sonic, ect. ect.

This is true to some extent, but it's only half of the picture. If you charted it on a graph (X axis is difficulty, Y axis if "fun"), you would get an inverted U. If it's too easy, and there's no fun. Likewise, if it's too hard, there's no fun. You have to try to get closer to the middle where the U peaks.

The problem with this is that not everyone has the same capabilities. For instance, if you played the original Heavy Gear game, you may remember the scenario that included jumping up onto moving boxes to reach the top of a room (apparently to fight a final boss). I sat at the console for over 16 straight hours, jumping, jumping, jumping and falling. I never finished that mission. My friend Brad completed it on his first attempt. It's just not something I'm good at. On the other hand, I can solve puzzles with the best of them.

The jumping thing was just too difficult for me, so it was simply not fun - FOR ME. Brad found it somewhat entertaining, though. So what were the developers to do? If they make it easy enough for me to do, Brad might not enjoy it - as much.

This is the crux of the issue. If something is too hard, there will be those who CANNOT complete it. If it's too easy, it may not be any more fun, but at least everyone CAN complete it. In my mind, that's better. The problem is to make things easy enough without being too easy.

It's a hard thing to accomplish.

I agree with you 100%, you have to find some point in between where the game is challenging and people are not getting frustrated.
That being said, I'm not a pro mmo player, I don't always block and most of the time I forget to interrupt. Still this game offers little to no challenge (for me), so I ask my self: how is it that I, not playing the optimal way and playing solo most of the time can go throw the content of this game with no problem whatsoever? And the answer is that this game is already easy, and there is no need to further nerf the content.

bantad87

I didn't get to play Beta (fricking drill weekend every time a beta popped...lol), but all I can say about the difficulty is that I sell all my potions and have no self healing, but I crushed every bit of content without any difficulty.

Only time I die is in PvP, or I accidentally pull like 15 mobs...lol. The game is not really challenging in the slightest.

Also, I'd like to add that the insane popularity of Dark Souls, and its constant comparison to other games gives weight to the argument that players want more difficult games, not less difficulty. Dark souls was really not that impressive of a game development-wise, but it provided players with constant thrill through difficulty. Plus the game was insanely successful; plenty of proof that difficult games can be successful without maintaining huge populations of casuals.

In fact, most games do fine and grow before casuals jump on the bandwagon - its when games cater to the masses that they often fail. Hence Rome 2, BF4, X:Rebirth - they lose everything that makes them unique.

Sakiri

Laura wrote: »

Ady wrote: »

Lets put this simply. Either nerf pve content until a majority can get trough it with no problems or allow people to come in other peoples instances and help with the quest. Either way one of these needs to be done, the majority of people playing this game are not "leet" and other bs thrown around here.

So in conclusion nerf pve or ditch the idiotic phasing system forcing people to solo in an mmo or lose subs and let the "ellite" crowd pay for future content.

That is the problem why do you want it SOOO EASY that its not a problem? do you know how many times I died on manimarco? at least 10. Molag bal? 12 or 13.

Did I cry? NO. I kept changing my strategy a little bit till i got it and when I did IT FELT AMAZING. YOU ARE FIGHTING GODS AND THE MOST POWERFUL PEOPLE/DEMONS IN EXISTENCE. I am far from "leet" or "elite" I can barely see, I have severe arthritis, I am almost 50 years old, and I am probably old enough to be your mom. I didn't research my class and after I died several times I didn't come to the forums wishing everything was super easy for me. You have infinite lives there is no game over - re-evaluate your approach and actually feel good about yourself when you win against something that isn't a total face roll. I will never understand why some people want to play these games with a drool cup.

I can't wait till you all see veteran content....

I can bring friends to veteran content.

Kendaric

NordJitsu wrote: »

With all do respect @Lorgren_Benirus‌ you don't know what a game is. Games are about over coming challenges. They always have been, since the days of Space Invaders, Super Mario, Sonic, ect. ect.

Games are about you dying over and over until you learn how not to die. The satisfaction comes from self improvement.

All those studies that show that video games improve cognition and motor function? Ya, that only works if the game is challenging.

If you want passive entertainment then you should go watch a movie or read a book. Video games are interactive entertainment and challenge is vital to keeping them interesting. People like yourself who want everything handed to you for nothing are destroying the medium.

Not everyone is motivated by the same things, however. Yes, some players crave a challenge, others play for diversion or social interaction.
I`ll take Skyrim as an example: Had I been forced to play in the higher difficulty modes, I`d have stopped within a couple of hours. Instead, I could turn the difficulty down and enjoy the story, which, for me, is the main reason to play.

In the end, content must exist for both ends of the spectrum or the game loses customers.

Sakiri

mlstevens42_ESO wrote: »

Thing is there are several builds that have people have used to already get through the content. As in have already defeated all of these fights. I know I did not copy any build from someone else. So it has to have been possible. So therefore it is not impossible.

Grouping for the main quest things would defeat the you are the hero sort of atmosphere they have made there. It would have to change the flavor of the fights to make them a challenge. Honestly people need to be able to do some of the things that these solo fights teach one to do like block dodge use abilities that are defensive instead of spamming dd stuff all of the time.

Btw I am a Woman I am 49 years old have trouble seeing sometimes in here. Further I am married have a 26 year old kiddo that is married. So it is not like I am some young punk living in parents basement like some assume those that can get through the content are. I do not consider myself a pro by any stretch. Still I am in vr content.

I dont care who or what you are, I know kids in Moms basement that cant beat these.

I can. I have friends that wont be able to and will just quit until they nerf it.

As to the "wait until they get into vet content" people... you can group vet content like you can overland quests. There is no comparison.

AngryNord

...

Lanatireb17_ESO

AngryNord wrote: »

Troll

+1 for truth

NordJitsu

Zaxq wrote: »

Love the "play as you want" excuse bad people use to ask for nerfs.

Well, I want to put no skills on my bars at all, and wear no Armor.

I want to RP a servant. So ONLY going to use the servant Disguise.

So my Armor will be 0 and I will have no attacks.

Now, I demand a nerf to ALL content so i can win. You said I can play how I want ZoS. This is so unfair. Nerf Everything! How dare you make it so i cant kill the boss by just being in his presence.

He should fall over and die when I look at him. Then drop full Vet10 set Epics.

Or I unsub.

Exactly.

That's a horrible argument. Play how you want to play means there's lots of different ways to beat content. Not that being a crap player is a viable strategy to defeat things.

And @Morgha_Kul‌ I agree that its about finding that happy middle. What I'm saying is that they've gone way to far to the left of your inverse U.

Lorgren_Benirus

NordJitsu wrote: »

With all do respect @Lorgren_Benirus‌ you don't know what a game is. Games are about over coming challenges. They always have been, since the days of Space Invaders, Super Mario, Sonic, ect. ect.

Games are about you dying over and over until you learn how not to die. The satisfaction comes from self improvement.

All those studies that show that video games improve cognition and motor function? Ya, that only works if the game is challenging.

If you want passive entertainment then you should go watch a movie or read a book. Video games are interactive entertainment and challenge is vital to keeping them interesting. People like yourself who want everything handed to you for nothing are destroying the medium.

No, they're not. A definition of the word "game" means entertainment and not some "die over and over again" as you put it. You may like it, most do not. What do you really "self improve" there? Clicking buttons? Because that's what it is in the end, just that and it's not something you can really put on your CV and be proud of. It won't help you much when you're looking for a job. Completing some real achievement does, or at least people will say "Really, you did that? Nice." As for the game then it was, is and will be an entertainment, means to pass time. And don't throw the BS like "People like yourself who want everything handed to you for nothing are destroying the medium" around either, you don't know a jack about others. If you think others opinion or choice is bad then your own isn't worth much more either. I can respond to that statement "people like you need to get out of their basement more and see what the real life is about and actually do something real, for a challenge, something what actually matters and is a real challenge, pressing buttons is not it".

Lanatireb17_ESO

Next time i play Monopoly i tell my coplayers that they cant seriously be having fun cause they dont keep hitting the floor dead over and over again.

AngryNord

OK, to those who are so afraid of the game getting "nerfed" and who throw out all sorts of abuse like "stop whining and go back to WoW" and whatnot... I just want to share this with you.

1) I have Asperger Syndrome. That means, I don't handle frustration very well. _at all_. I shout, I swear, I throw things, you name it. This also means I don't have good coordination. I get confused when there are too much going on at once, and often miss the correct key, or press the wrong key.
2). I have an old, slow computer. Due to 1) I am on partial disability pension, so I can't just "go out and buy a better computer" - I simply can't afford that.
3) No, I don't have much experience with MMOs. I played a bit of Ultima Online many years ago, that's about it. I am not a very good player at all, fine, I admit that. I am not at all unwilling to learn. I do know how to dodge, block, I don't just "stand around and hit the attack key". But due to 2) I often get really bad lag in combat, meaning that even though I dodge, before the keypress actuall get registered, I am already dead. This of course further adds to frustration.

I am on the 'Castle of Worms' quest - my character is a level 21 Nord Templar with heavy armour and a two-handed axe. Using mostly the Silver Bolts and Piercing Javelin spells, combined with Honor the Dead to self-heal and Critical Charge to do some extra damage. I take down most mobs in this quest fairly easilly. But I just can't get past the skeletons. I simply can't. The flames create lots of lag, meaning that even if I use the potion or Honor the Dead in time, the keypress takes too long to register, and voila - I'm dead. I tried the quest again now tonight, I got to the second wave a couple of times, but after dying about 10 times I rage quit. I can't see myself ever attempting this quest again, I just completely hate it now, it has ruined much of my motivation for this game. And I really, really do want to enjoy it. I have enjoyed the vast amount of questing so far, I really love the lore and art. But due to just this one quest, I am pretty much ready to throw in the towel, and likely will cancel my sub tomorrow.
I am pretty certain that if I was allowed to group with just _one_ other player, I'd have breezed through this quest. Easilly. Or if the quest was just ever so slightly lowered in difficulty, perhaps having just two skeletons in each wave, or only one wave of them. And I could continue enjoying the game. Instead, Zenimax have lost a paying customer, and I have grown to really hate the game I really enjoyed and could play for hours on end just a few days ago. I admit, I was so frustrated and angry with this quest, that I even went on one of those more shady forums to investigate about an invincibiliy hack, just so I could have gotten through the quest, and kept on enjoying the game. Then again, I know that the coming main quest quests will likely cause the same frustration, so I guess my cancellation is in place.
But why couldn't Zenimax just have allowed me to bring _one_ guildmate with me on this quest? That would've reduced the strain in combat enough that I could fairly easilly have gone on with the quest, and then gotten back to Deshaan and kept on questing there, and likely been to Shadowfen by now. Really - in what way would it have ruined the game for others that me, and a small minority with me, would bring just _one_ guildmate with us on these quests? I can see nothing but win on it - I, and the others who struggle with small parts of certain quests, could have kept on enjoying the game, Zenimax would have still gotten the income from us to keep developing the game, and for those who don't have any trouble with these quests, well, they could still do them alone just like before.
Why are you so against this?

NordJitsu

@Lorgren_Benirus‌

You're getting wildly off topic... No one is arguing that defeating Mannimarco is going to earn you a Noble Prize or something. Its about having fun, not earning social acclaim. And easy is boring, not fun.

You do get some benefit beyond the enjoyment though. Like I said. numerous studies have found all sorts of cognitive benefits to video games, but that's contingent on the game challenging you.

And again, this basement talk isn't gonna do much for me. I'm not a hardcore player. I'm moderate at best, because I don't have the time. I work two part time jobs, I've got a kid, and I've just finished up grad school. Never lived in a basement.

Point is, I enjoy games that challenge me and make me learn. If you see how many people agree with me, you'll notice that a lot of others feel the same way. No one is arguing that games aren't entertainment. We're arguing about the type of entertainment.

You don't need to be some uber player to handle this game's challenges during the leveling experience and you never did. All you had to be was patient and willing to learn. There was a great thread on the Psijic Order forums with a player who was older and I believe disabled somehow. She came to the forums to ask for help beating Mannimarco. While she originally thought he should be made easier, I've since seen posts from her saying that she wished he hadn't been nerfed. Because now beating him has lost all sense of accomplishment.

I believe she died to him something like 50 times. Do you know how much more satisfying that eventual victory is compared to beating him on the first try?

Hypersillyman

That's the old "the best thing about slamming your head against a wall is that it feels so good when you stop" argument. I don't buy it. If I died to something in a game 50 times I would put that game away and never play it again because it simply is NOT fun for me to constantly and consistently fail at something just for the hope of how wonderful it will feel if I ever somehow miraculously beat it. Maybe for you that's fun. If so, there are literally hundreds of console games that cater to that exact mentality, and a few dozen Korean F2P mmos that do the same. For a game that is supposed to appeal to a wide market, they need to make it accessible to the vast MAJORITY of players, not just a hardcore minority that can't understand how anyone could possibly not be as leet as they are.

Try to have some perspective. It's not always a L2P issue, or a "go play WoW, scrub" sort of thing. Sometimes people legitimately have a hard time with games like this. This is why I have advocated since day one that these quests need to be doable by a group. That way, the solo players can still have their difficulty, and the rest of us can actually get past a content blocker that we would otherwise never progress beyond. I will never understand why the two sides, hardcore and casual, can't bring themselves to see compromise instead of either/or. It's like both sides are completely incapable of enjoying any game unless they are ruining it for someone else.

There is a happy medium here. I've stated it many times. Remove all forced solo. Allow any and all quests to be grouped. Simple. Solves the problem.

Moving on.

Sakiri

Ill have you know that basement living is awesome.

Basement apartments kick ass when you live in an area that gets stupid hot in the summer. Saved me a ton on energy costs.

Kendaric

NordJitsu wrote: »

You don't need to be some uber player to handle this game's challenges during the leveling experience and you never did. All you had to be was patient and willing to learn. There was a great thread on the Psijic Order forums with a player who was older and I believe disabled somehow. She came to the forums to ask for help beating Mannimarco. While she originally thought he should be made easier, I've since seen posts from her saying that she wished he hadn't been nerfed. Because now beating him has lost all sense of accomplishment.

I believe she died to him something like 50 times. Do you know how much more satisfying that eventual victory is compared to beating him on the first try?

Well, apparently the majority of PTS testers wasn't too happy with his difficulty though, otherwise the fight wouldn't have been adjusted before launch.

And sorry, but a needlessly long fight like Mannimarco isn't exactly my idea of fun. Having some mechanics? Sure. Being powerful? Sure, he's on the verge of becoming a god after all. But having the fight last for what felt like eternity was just annoying for me. As someone who enjoys playing alts a lot, I don't really enjoy the thought of having to endure that fight or my personal nemesis, the Lyris doppelganger, seven more times.

As for satisfaction ... no, beating the fight wasn't satisfying. It was more of a "it's done at last, don't want to endure it again anytime soon".
Different people have different preferences, for me the boss fights simply aren't fun.

Alandauron

@NordJitsu, this is a lost cause it seems. Gaming isn't what it used to be. Everyone wants to have everything spoon fed to them so they can get to the end and simply move on. This is what's wrong with MMOs of today, if they can't quickly grind to maximum level and easily roll over everything in the game then it's too hard.

This IS NOT a debate on what gaming is, it's a debate on how lazy people have become and how horribly entitled they think they are. I miss the challenge that used to come from gaming, but others just want to buy a fully leveled character and not ever face a challenge.

I don't like the idea of grouping on these solo progression points but honestly I would prefer that over what they are currently doing and nerfing everything to the point of uselessness. As long as they make it a mechanic where you HAVE to invite them in the instance with you and I can't have a bunch of randoms running in there with me.

Neferath

Very nice post NordJitsu.

I totally agree with you. One of the great examples of what happens if you nerf too much at a game, therefor making it too easy, was Star Wars Galaxies. Every Dev should learn from what has happened there after Sony's combat update.

Kendaric

Alandauron wrote: »

As long as they make it a mechanic where you HAVE to invite them in the instance with you and I can't have a bunch of randoms running in there with me.

Well, that would be a given otherwise what would be the point of a group option?
No one here's advocating turning these encounters into public instances like the delves.

Also regarding difficulty/challenge... I do believe that the overland mobs can use a slight buff in a number of places. Not all of them, but in some cases it would be a good thing.

Morgha_Kul

Well, I've left a couple of comments, but I realize I never said what I actually think.

I think the foes in general are pretty decent. Overland foes are weaker than me, but can be a serious threat in small groups of 3 or 4. Most of the more serious bosses, are likewise fine. They're challenging, but aren't going to require me to play a specific style or follow a specific plan to defeat. Essentially, I have to be at least aware of what's going on to defeat them reliably. As with the minions, I should expect to be able to defeat these foes - perhaps not easily - but reliably.

The big bosses, like Mannimarco, I haven't really seen yet, but I've encountered some action in that questline. What I've seen is foes that frankly overwhelm me with so much damage or so many foes that there's simply no way for me to compete. It's too much.

Something I learned from GMing games over the years is that you don't want enemies, even major bosses, doing too much damage. They have to be somewhere in the same realm as the heroes. Champions was where it really became evident.

An enemy that can oneshot foes essentially takes away the game. If you don't have an opportunity to react, then you're not actually playing. The situation would be the same whether you were there or not. Likewise, you can't require players to do something to survive (such as self-heal) when not all players can DO that.

You can make things challenging, but you have to let the players stay in the game. If the enemy is going to do enormous amounts of damage, there needs to be a way for ALL players to avoid it or recover from it.

Major bosses like Mannimarco should be doing only moderately more damage than the players do, with his basic attacks. His big attacks that do lots of damage should be telegraphed, allowing players to avoid them. Finally, since not all players can self-heal, some means to recover during the fight should be made available to all. Yes, we have healing potions, but they're frankly quite weak and have a long cooldown, considering the amount of damage we take.

Most other enemies seem fine to me. I wouldn't change anything there.


TL/DR:

Cut back big bosses basic damage somewhat, and change certain missions so we're not being overwhelmed by numbers.

Leave all other foes alone, they seem fine (so far).

Elember

I agree with this post whole heartedly!

Just started playing about 2 months before beta ended and the game was launched. I was happy that there were some tough bosses that I came up against, like Doshia, in the fighters guild quest line because this gave me something to strive for, something to give me a reason to change my tactics, change the skills I was using, eat some special food, level up a bit, etc.

It is a game and for a game to be fun to play it MUST be difficult otherwise very soon it is no longer fun, simple as that.

Soon after the game was launched I noticed in the patch notes that they reduced Doshia's abilities and right away I started to think....

Inside of a year or less this game will be dead, gone, and I will have moved on because there will be no challenge.

For god sakes if a boss is difficult like that fighters guild quest I mentioned, instead of reducing the bosses skills/abilities all you need to do is make it so a person can take along a friend or a random player who is also having trouble with it.

Try to remember that ESO is an MMO and in MMO's ALL QUESTS should be able to be done in groups, NONE should be solo.

Keep the bosses strong and powerful and if you have to make a quest easier make it so you can group to complete it, it is a much better solution and that way the solo player still has the really tough fight and can get enjoyment from that and the player who does not want to tinker with their character can group to do that quest.

Elember

NordJitsu wrote: »

Oh....

Opening these fights to groups is a horrible idea. That would trivialize things even more.

That's like super duper easy mode.

Yes but it leaves the bosses tough to beat solo and the players who can't or won't bother to use different tactics and skills can still complete their game and won't whine about it. So grouping is actually a MUCH better answer then reducing the bosses to weaklings....

mlstevens42_ESO

Okay you may not care who or what I am. I only pointed out that gamers are quite varied in who they are where they come from and how skilled or not they happen to be. The idiocy that any one that can do it is some sort of minor deity is dumb. The suggestion that people that defeat the big challenges in a game are lacking in a social life is stupid. Some are simply more skilled in video games.

This is not rocket science this is not something that is going to win the noble peace prize. This is in fact a game nothing more. Many that play these games do so for a challenge. They see the game as compromised when everything becomes so easy that a four year old can do it. It takes so little of their time they do not feel it to be worth paying for. I know I am one of these types of gamers.

If the game holds no challenges I do not play it. Not for epeen I do not care if you got there first, second ,23rd or last. I rarely stay in town so not one of those standing around showing off their titles gears or what not. How you challenge yourself or not does not concern me. Since I primarily play solo in this game due to time of day what you are doing has little to no relevance. What does have relevance is making everything so simple that I am BORED to tears. Boredom means I do not keep buying more time. If you keep tossing me challenges I keep paying and playing.

Simple fact you are not going to be able to make a game that is going to please every one. You are going to have to make some decisions about how you want your game to be. Granted if it is to difficult no one will play if it is to easy people will not want to play either. The dev people need to decide and not listen to close to the shouting nerf every time something has the least little challenge to it. It needs to be looked at to determine if it is really to much or just someone that is complaining because they did not run in kill it with a big red I win button.

Without trying to be rude this game is not for everyone. I too get frustrated (mostly when things do not work like they are supposed to) I too have had trouble here and there. Just because I have times where I did not win did not mean it needed to be nerfed maybe I just needed to learn to play. Figure out my build do something different put in a different skill learn to dodge or block. Guess what with practice and what little patience I possess I defeated the challenges presented.

I am sorry that there are some that can not be bothered to learn how to play. Which is for the most part the problem. I do not feel that all challenge should be lost due to those that do not want to learn how to play. There should be a penalty for them. They should not be able to progress. Yes it is a game. This is part of the game.

Yes I know there are some out there who for whatever reason (real reasons not just the throwing a tantrum kind) are never going to be able to do it. I do not know what you can do to be helpful to them that isn't going to destroy the game for everyone else. There are things I can't do also. No matter how hard I try. I am not asking them to change everything so I can do it. (just for example as far as this game is concerned I can not for some reason get the hang of the lockpicking makes me frustrated enough to toss my pc out the window. Yet there are many people who can get it just like it was nothing. I do not insist they change the lp for me. Platforming in other games is frustrating but I digress.) So yes there are things I can not nor will I ever be able to do. I understand them being frustrated.

Still the question remains do you destroy any challenges in the game for those that do not want to learn how to play. If it were a vote I would vote no.

(note I place those with physical limitations in a different class dealing with them is different they can not help that they can not see, hear, maneuver or whatever their issue is. Sadly I am just unsure what one can really do to help them if they can be helped at all. Grouping might look like an answer and it might be the best answer but it would take a lot of changes to make it a challenge still. Mechanics for a solo versus a group fight are very different. Just slapping more health and a few adds is not going to make it the same sort of difficulty as the solo fight. One also has to wonder if they did do such a thing would the fight remain balanced for the solo adventure.)

reignfyre

I would LOVE to find an MMO where I couldn't defeat most if not all bosses on my first attempt. My vanilla WoW guild was terrible, but we died over and over to each boss leading up to Magmadar and had FUN when those suckers finally went down and we perfected our strategy. Plus on Sargeras the PVP action just trying to get to the dungeon was HIGH LARRY US.

This game, on the other hand, is a snooze fest.

I want vanilla WoW back. Srsly.