Please Stop Trivializing Content

South_of_Heaven

Lanatireb17_ESO wrote: »

Why is it that in every mmo after some while an elitist shows up and gathers all the 'this is all much too easy, dont make it even easier' elitists around him? Yes, maybe to YOU those bosses where manageable even at an appropriate level, but maybe, JUST maybe, some people build characters that simply arent fit for the task? Maybe, JUST maybe, some classes are stronger than others, and maybe currently there are skills that arent as strong as others and builds that arent as good?
I dont know what class and skill lines you played my dear friend OP, but rest assured, there are classes that have HUGE problems beating those bosses, and not because they dont dodge or block or hop around or kite, but simply because their CLASS and skill lines arent up to the task?
What about people who put plenty of skill points into crafting?
About those who didnt put any skillpoints into the selfhealing skills every class has?
What about Nightblades? Their skillset currently is utterly broken with about half their skills not doing what they are supposed to do?
What about people who want to enjoy content without having to have the perfect cookie cutter build?
Ah...yes...it doesnt matter to you, i know.
I does matter to Zenimax though. And if 3 people leave because the game is too easy, well, guess what, i already know if some people who stopped playing cause their progress was blocked cause they couldnt defeat storyline bosses.

But because YOU, my dear OP are super imba, along with your three elitist friends, those people dont deserve to finish the storyline quests.. i see.

Do you know how many people I've seen trying a boss once, never caring for tactics or avoiding the red areas and then coming to the forums and whine about how supposedly difficult the encounter was?

I bet you are one of them because I can't imagine how a healthy human cannot overcome the trivial "difficulty" of the current content and quit because of it!

There is also a tip in-game saying that retreating and coming back after becoming stronger is a valid tactic. The game gives you the chance to over-level and try again. But I guess some people want to complete everything on the first try and god forbid if they put any effort to them.

Lanatireb17_ESO

I tried Mannimarco alltogether 53 times , starting in level 42, finally being able to defeat him in level 47 with all purple gear and after spending 15k gold on respeccing. Your point being, besides being an elitist jerk?

South_of_Heaven

Lanatireb17_ESO wrote: »

I tried Mannimarco alltogether 53 times , starting in level 42, finally being able to defeat him in level 47 with all purple gear and after spending 15k gold on respeccing. Your point being, besides being an elitist jerk?

Elitist jerk? I am just a person who wants to do something more interactive than watching a movie or playing farmville on facebook. You know *play* a game. And up until now I have found the content terribly boring with most bosses needing nothing more than spamming one button to be defeated.
I know this is farmville lovers' idea of fun, but isn't this supposed to be a game?

As for the situation you describe, you are either lying or you are doing something terribly, terribly wrong. I never used potions, rarely had to switch some skills to make the fight easier and completed quests at their level with all green gear (never wore a purple ), mannimarco included (wiped a few times on him though). I am not a very good player either.

So I can only say this - keep calm, read your skills, morph them, try to get some self-healing skills every class has and do not gimp yourself by putting everything in all the crafting skills (I level 3 crafting skills). Also have an alternative weapon, preferably ranged.

Lanatireb17_ESO

What class are you playing?

NordJitsu

@Lanatireb17_ESO‌

I'm not an elitist.

There's plenty of Nightblade builds that can absolutely wreck Manni right now. I've got several guildies who are both NBs and new to the game who absolutely wrecked Manni.

And no, you don't need a "cookie cutter build" to do it. There are hundreds of different ways to make a viable guild in this game. There's some ways to make really bad builds too. If you had that much trouble with him, you were probably using a really bad build.

Instead of complaining about the difficulty though and ruining the game for players of even average competence, you should have come to the forum or gone to your guild to ask for help. There's lots of people who'd be willing to talk you through it.

bearcalypse

I find it hilarious that the e-peeners who wanted no compromise in how hard solo content would be will have to deal with bosses getting nerfed into wet noodles (see newly nerfed Doshia) when they could have compromised and gone with allowing people to bring help for their progression missions and just have those missions scale for more than 1 person. That way the solo difficulty could have been preserved while allowing people with different builds to progress.

Allow me to channel Nelson Muntz: Ha Ha!

Kellhus

The problem is that players have been repeatedly taught that single player fights in MMO do not require attention to mechanics -- just stand there and hit it till it dies, collect loot, move on. You have people completely bewildered that face tanking isn't working, and it's by design.

ESO is really about options, and many actually will work on a scale from easy to harder. You have to be willing to shore up your weaknesses with other skills, all while remaining mobile and paying attention to what is happening in the fight.

I got creamed on Molag Bal for the first five tries, then once it dawned on me what I was doing wrong I didn't drop below 80%. Every fight in the game simply requires you to pay attention and react accordingly -- how you do damage simply lengthens or shortens the overall fight time.

South_of_Heaven

Kellhus wrote: »

The problem is that players have been repeatedly taught that single player fights in MMO do not require attention to mechanics -- just stand there and hit it till it dies, collect loot, move on. You have people completely bewildered that face tanking isn't working, and it's by design.

ESO is really about options, and many actually will work on a scale from easy to harder. You have to be willing to shore up your weaknesses with other skills, all while remaining mobile and paying attention to what is happening in the fight.

I got creamed on Molag Bal for the first five tries, then once it dawned on me what I was doing wrong I didn't drop below 80%. Every fight in the game simply requires you to pay attention and react accordingly -- how you do damage simply lengthens or shortens the overall fight time.

ESO is already a facetanking game as well unfortunately.

Only 1-2 bosses in the main quest are remotely difficult at first and really easy once you get a grip of what's going on. It's utterly shocking that people complain about them. How spoiled can a person be.

The things that kept me going were the beautiful graphics and design, the great voice acting and content but in terms of combat and difficulty I already find ESO's fights boring because of only requiring facetanking and if they continue and nerf things even more they can kiss the subscription of those who want to play something more interactive than farmville on facebook goodbye.

ChuiDuma

@Lanatireb17_ESO‌

What about nightblades? I play a nightblade, and I killed Doshia on my first try.

Because I was using what I had learned and playing utilizing dodging. I do not have a cookie cutter build, I have one that works for me with how I want to play the game.

It's possible your build doesn't work, I don't know. It's also possible that you're one of the people who just wants to stand there and wail on things until they're dead, putting no effort into it. I don't know that either.

I've posted several times in various "omg Doshia is so hard!" threads, but I'm forced to think that many players do not want to become *better* players.

The problem I have with nerfing Doshia is that if you understand the mechanics and you actually utilize the 3 magic skills that can save your live (dodge, interrupt, block), then she can be super easy after a bit of practice. The answer isn't to give up and whine about it, but rather to ask how can you get better?

By not practicing and becoming a better player, you're setting yourself up for failure later on. Harvesters do not go away. They become a normal mob enemy later on down the line, so if you're having trouble with Doshia, you're gonna hate it when you're ~lvl 40 in Coldharbour.

AngryNord

Ady wrote: »

Lets put this simply. Either nerf pve content until a majority can get trough it with no problems or allow people to come in other peoples instances and help with the quest. Either way one of these needs to be done, the majority of people playing this game are not "leet" and other bs thrown around here.

So in conclusion nerf pve or ditch the idiotic phasing system forcing people to solo in an mmo or lose subs and let the "ellite" crowd pay for future content.

Amen

Laura

Ady wrote: »

Lets put this simply. Either nerf pve content until a majority can get trough it with no problems or allow people to come in other peoples instances and help with the quest. Either way one of these needs to be done, the majority of people playing this game are not "leet" and other bs thrown around here.

So in conclusion nerf pve or ditch the idiotic phasing system forcing people to solo in an mmo or lose subs and let the "ellite" crowd pay for future content.

That is the problem why do you want it SOOO EASY that its not a problem? do you know how many times I died on manimarco? at least 10. Molag bal? 12 or 13.

Did I cry? NO. I kept changing my strategy a little bit till i got it and when I did IT FELT AMAZING. YOU ARE FIGHTING GODS AND THE MOST POWERFUL PEOPLE/DEMONS IN EXISTENCE. I am far from "leet" or "elite" I can barely see, I have severe arthritis, I am almost 50 years old, and I am probably old enough to be your mom. I didn't research my class and after I died several times I didn't come to the forums wishing everything was super easy for me. You have infinite lives there is no game over - re-evaluate your approach and actually feel good about yourself when you win against something that isn't a total face roll. I will never understand why some people want to play these games with a drool cup.

I can't wait till you all see veteran content....

South_of_Heaven

Laura wrote: »

Ady wrote: »

Lets put this simply. Either nerf pve content until a majority can get trough it with no problems or allow people to come in other peoples instances and help with the quest. Either way one of these needs to be done, the majority of people playing this game are not "leet" and other bs thrown around here.

So in conclusion nerf pve or ditch the idiotic phasing system forcing people to solo in an mmo or lose subs and let the "ellite" crowd pay for future content.

That is the problem why do you want it SOOO EASY that its not a problem? do you know how many times I died on manimarco? at least 10. Molag bal? 12 or 13.

Did I cry? NO. I kept changing my strategy a little bit till i got it and when I did IT FELT AMAZING. YOU ARE FIGHTING GODS AND THE MOST POWERFUL PEOPLE/DEMONS IN EXISTENCE. I am far from "leet" or "elite" I can barely see, I have severe arthritis, I am almost 50 years old, and I am probably old enough to be your mom. I didn't research my class and after I died several times I didn't come to the forums wishing everything was super easy for me. You have infinite lives there is no game over - re-evaluate your approach and actually feel good about yourself when you win against something that isn't a total face roll. I will never understand why some people want to play these games with a drool cup.

I can't wait till you all see veteran content....

Well said!

Btw can you imagine what would happen if Super Mario Classic was released in this age and had forums?

Aemesh23

NiRN wrote: »

They want to reach as wide an audience as they can and lets face it alot of people aren't pros at playing MMO's. I don't condone the dumbing down of content but when it all boils down to it it's about money. Easier content= wider player base=$$$

This ^

An army only moves as fast as its slowest soldier. Zenimax can't afford to appeal to the top twenty percent of players at the cost of losing the bottom half who invariably will post that the game is "too hard" ....

The good news is, you can always go to cyrodiil to find a challenging opponent. Unless you just PVE'd your brains out, leveled to veteran X as fast as you could with your mad skillz, and proceed to beat a bunch of level 30's to death with shield blocks. "Oops! 'nother one bites the dust, this game is too easy."

*cough*

Alandauron

AngryNord wrote: »

The road they are heading now is perfectly sound. It prevents them from losing subs that get frustrated over overpowered bosses, impossible quests, and elitist swine telling them to "learn to play, ***". OK, so they may be losing the 40-year old virgins still living in their mothers' basement that does nothing but play ESO all day and only boasts about how ridiculously easy everything is - well good riddance!

You are so terribly misguided it isn't even funny, it's really just pathetic actually. You do realize that girls play games now, and so does just about everyone in the world? No, well I know quite a few good looking girls that laughed at Doshia after the first nerf, they would be truly disappointed in her now.

Doshia IS easy if you pay attention to the mechanics(even more so now unfortunately). Any class could beat her as long as you pay attention to when those orbs appear, there is a move Doshia does that immediately after the orbs appear. Destroy orbs and regain life.....WTF ARE YOU SERIOUS!?!?!? So even if you were running low on health you get almost all life back...but that's hard right?

Even if you took your time with it and nicked away at her life you could get your own health back each time she performed that move. But that ground lightning spell hurts so bad...dodge roll to the side and magically that arc spell can't eve hit you...NO WAY!?!?!?

Pay attention to cues and she was cake, I had more trouble with Giants later on than I did with Doshia, Giants don't have those convenient bubbles to help you restore your health

That is only one boss, the others have become a joke as well, but what can we do. It seems there is a ton of facetankers that don't care to improve, they just want to walk through the story and never experience a PvE challenge.

South_of_Heaven

AngryNord wrote: »

Reported one more troll. Already gotten one fanboy banned from here (and hopefully the game as well), looks like you'll be next.

You are the one who is quick to characterize in this and especially your previous post:

AngryNord wrote: »

The road they are heading now is perfectly sound. It prevents them from losing subs that get frustrated over overpowered bosses, impossible quests, and elitist swine telling them to "learn to play, ***". OK, so they may be losing the 40-year old virgins still living in their mothers' basement that does nothing but play ESO all day and only boasts about how ridiculously easy everything is - well good riddance!

And still you are trying to report others more civil than yourself? Tsk tsk tsk naughty boy...

Alandauron

AngryNord wrote: »

Reported one more troll. Already gotten one fanboy banned from here (and hopefully the game as well), looks like you'll be next.

If you're referring to me then you'll be sadly disappointed. Not trolling you, if anything your post is more of a troll, but maybe that's all you're doing here. Try reading the post, didn't say anything offensive to you, just that you are misguided if you think that people that live in their parent's basements are the ones posting on here.

But thanks for pointing out the report option here, seems both your posts are more about offending and trolling than related to the topic. Flagging them both now.

Veakoth

Bogdan the Nightflame, last boss in veteran Elden Hollow, click the Opus and go fight him and you'll finally see the one boss currently in the game of worth.
If its one of many to come ill be very glad

cigarsmoker

While I agree whole heartedly with this there is a breaking point. The Lyris Doppelganger is a case in point where only a small number of people are beating this boss at the level the quest is given.

My build is very good for what I want to do. I'm playing a dual wielding NB going for a crit build. I can take down a single mob of equal level in a few seconds and a named mob in a couple minutes of good fighting. Most mini-bosses take 10-15 minutes of combat.

So what does that say when a level 30 challenge (Doppelganger Lyris) kicks my ass for over an hour and a half straight?

It says there is something wrong with that encounter and it needs to be adjusted so that your AOE build and my single target crit build can both finish the encounter and both be fun to play through, not frustrating.

Napkins

Gaming companys cater to the largest player base. As they should. So this game will be way more casual friendly than hardcore friendly. Like every mmo out there. (minus daoc)

South_of_Heaven

Napkins wrote: »

Gaming companys cater to the largest player base. As they should. So this game will be way more casual friendly than hardcore friendly. Like every mmo out there. (minus daoc)

I am a casual and still disappointed by the difficulty. To which player base do they cater? Farmville lovers?

Alandauron

@Napkins, same here, quite the casual player myself. I play the games I do for enjoyment, but not religiously or super often. Part of that enjoyment is challenge, ZOS is taking that enjoyment away from me and many others.

Saying that the majority want the bosses nerfed is an overstatement. It's usually the vocal minority that gets things like this to happen. The rest are content and say nothing, I only came to the forums after reading patch notes about another Doshia nerf. She was already ridiculously easy.

@cigarsmoker, I play a nightblade single target build, you just have to watch for those orbs. Harvesters are only tough if you let them get their life back instead of taking it back from them. That move that takes most of your life away is the one that comes right before the orbs appear, the harvester is "harvesting" your life force. Take it back before they get it.

LonePirate

I wish everyone who thinks this game is too easy would embrace their knowledge and experience with the game by sharing it with the world via uploaded videos that can be used as teaching tools for everyone. I want to see these people blast through the elite end of quest bosses as easily as they say they do. I want to see what they are doing that so many other people are not. If the game is indeed too easy and/or these people are just that good, then what's the harm in proving it and helping their fellow players at the same time?

Alandauron

LonePirate wrote: »

I wish everyone who thinks this game is too easy would embrace their knowledge and experience with the game by sharing it with the world via uploaded videos that can be used as teaching tools for everyone. I want to see these people blast through the elite end of quest bosses as easily as they say they do. I want to see what they are doing that so many other people are not. If the game is indeed too easy and/or these people are just that good, then what's the harm in proving it and helping their fellow players at the same time?

There were probably plenty streaming it, but once you beat them you have to level through another character. Most will eventually, but it's not like we can skip straight to these encounters on command.

Harvesters,

watch for the spell that lifts you into the air and drains your life to about 1/4. Right after it ends expect those orbs. Kill them quick to regain most, if not all, your health. This also prevents the Harvester(Doshia, Lyris Doppleganger) from being able to recover any health.

Gutstripper,

make sure to step out of any red! when gutstripper charges if you are out of red path he will become disoriented allowing either time for a heal or to use a strong attack to knock him down. Kiting works best, but if me lee just make sure to reserve enough stamina for one dodge roll for his spin attack. When that red circle appears around him dodge roll out.

Stamina is very important in any fight, if you spam stamina based attacks until you run out every time you are only gimping yourself. You need stamina to block, you need stamina to dodge roll. If you find yourself always running out of stamina consider quick slotting stamina pots instead of health.

Food and drinks make a considerable difference. If you are having issues beating a boss and you haven't consumed some form of food or drink(in game) then doing so could turn things in your favor. Green food/drink gives one stat bonus, Blue food/drink gives 2, Purple food/drink gives all 3.

I am a provisioner in my guild and give all this away for free to guildies, if you're not in a guild it might be time to find one for the support you can gain from it.

Clutch

Well some content needed balancing. Balreth for example. It's not rocket science to use the talisman. The issue was that it favored heavy damage builds so the fight just took longer than it should have for the inexperienced. First time playing beta I had a tough time with him because he'd just regenerate, the last time I went into beta I just dominated him but the fight still went longer than I would have liked.

There's a line between trivializing content and balancing content to match. I'd be ok with, again as an example, Balreth doing tremendous damage with his targeters to convince players to move or dodge if it met the fight would go a little quicker.

LonePirate wrote: »

I wish everyone who thinks this game is too easy would embrace their knowledge and experience with the game by sharing it with the world via uploaded videos that can be used as teaching tools for everyone. I want to see these people blast through the elite end of quest bosses as easily as they say they do. I want to see what they are doing that so many other people are not. If the game is indeed too easy and/or these people are just that good, then what's the harm in proving it and helping their fellow players at the same time?

That's actually a valid point that the "experienced" players take for granted. See I come back, having played the beta, and previous encounters that I thought were hard became trivial. It's because I knew the drill, things became like second nature. Many would be surprised just how effective a learning curve is once the ball gets rolling. At one point fights like Dorsha and Balreth became tedious because even pre-nerf, once you knew what was going on; there wasn't much excitement to be had out of it.

Goes hand in hand with what Bioware has been doing with TOR in every update. Give mobs CCs that they can spam constantly because for whatever reason they think that makes an encounter more challenging.

cigarsmoker

@Alandauron I have watched for the orbs. If you check my post in the thread about the Lyris Doppelganger you'll see that I even swapped out my whole ability load to an AOE (as much as possible) fire staff to take out the orbs and I am still getting creamed. I'm blocking the heavy attack and attacking as she is stunned and still getting my backside handed to me.

So you can't say it's an issue of tactics or my personal skill. It's an issue of how I want to play as opposed to how I am being forced to play to win this, and I'm still not winning it. At one point I counted 8-9 orbs in the room while this encounter was going on and even with the wall of flame ability they weren't popping.

I'm not saying don't make it a challenge, I love a good challenge. What I am saying is make it fun and possible for everyone no matter their style of play.

Alandauron

cigarsmoker wrote: »

@Alandauron I have watched for the orbs. If you check my post in the thread about the Lyris Doppelganger you'll see that I even swapped out my whole ability load to an AOE (as much as possible) fire staff to take out the orbs and I am still getting creamed. I'm blocking the heavy attack and attacking as she is stunned and still getting my backside handed to me.

So you can't say it's an issue of tactics or my personal skill. It's an issue of how I want to play as opposed to how I am being forced to play to win this, and I'm still not winning it. At one point I counted 8-9 orbs in the room while this encounter was going on and even with the wall of flame ability they weren't popping.

I'm not saying don't make it a challenge, I love a good challenge. What I am saying is make it fun and possible for everyone no matter their style of play.

Wow...must be a bug then. Only supposed to be 4 orbs and they go straight to the harvester. But that's not related to difficulty, that's related to bug reporting. Sad to hear that's happening, try /camp maybe...probably won't work for a solo quest though...weird bug.

Morgha_Kul

I will say this. I agree that you don't want to trivialize content, especially significant foes like Mannimarco (who I haven't met yet, being L20). On the other hand, there are situations now in the game that I cannot see how one could possibly be expected to survive.

For example, there's the mission at L15 where you first chat with Tharn. After the conversation, a bad guy comes in (Falco, I think the name is) and fights you. Now, I play a Sorceror. Unless I'm using a restoration staff, I'm dead. Guaranteed. They guy has so much resistance and does so much damage that unless I can more or less continuously heal myself, I'm dead in seconds. There's just not any way I could defeat him with just damage. Last time I did it, I was forced to run around the rock again and again and again, keeping out of reach while my magicka and health regenerated enough for me to resummon or heal so I could hit him with the restoration staff's basic attack. Took me nearly 40 minutes to finally defeat him.

Tonight, I got to rescuing Tharn. The fight at the top of the tower saw me getting ganked by 4-6 skeletons at a time. There was simply no way to survive the amount of damage I was taking until I switched to my restoration staff again. Of course, it didn't help that Lyris preferred to just stand there watching.

The point is that while you don't want it to be too easy, it can't be too hard either. There's a balance point that has to be found. I'm not sure they've found it yet.

steinernein

You can increase the difficulty without requiring specific builds and that is pretty much all movement based things; increase the damage of red circles, make red circles occur more frequently, make it pattern based, and make the boss do far less for auto attack/white damage -- so there is almost never a chance of you dying to the boss's normal swings, but if you don't pay attention to the telegraphs/environment you should die within one or two hits.

Throw in some other mechanics and it should be perfectly fine. You can bring an empty bar and still win, granted it might take you longer, but it'll be purely about how you react to the environment.

LimeFox

I agree about the Halls of Torment bug. For some reason, that story line quest is the only one that's kicked my butt repeatedly. Mannimarco was fine. Final boss of the game was fine. Halls of Torment made me want to rage quit, I finally pulled it off at level 40, because....

-There were as many as 6 orbs popping. Even with my Nightblade Archer, I couldn't kill them fast enough. I'd get all but one, and that one would screw me.

-For some reason, I consistently get massive latency spikes in this fight. Nowhere else in the game, but here, the game almost hiccups through the fight. If you can't attack in real time, Harvesters become literally impossible and you simply die again and again.

-Lyris/Tharn do nothing. Literally. I never thought I'd long for Sven from Skyrim again, but even a level 3 Sven would be more useful here. I don't even understand why I need to drag an NPC around if they're just going to stand there and get in my way when I need to roll dodge.

-Sometimes the orbs either don't take damage, or they take literally 5 hits to go down. I have ridiculously high DPS and critical rates. I should be able to one shot those orbs, I've done it before.

-At one point, I got stuck in the enviroment. And died because the boss had smacked me into next week... and the middle of a stone pillar.

And I understand why people are frustrated with the boss mechanics, because currently, nothing in the game truly forces you to learn how to play. I know people who don't PvP, aren't doing the Guild quest lines, and are literally just playing through the story and quests in their faction. You don't learn tactics when there are several other people killing the same enemy, you're more worried about getting your quick AoE's in so the kill will count for you and you don't have to stand around waiting for twenty minutes for a respawn. Dungeons, quests, bosses, mini-bosses... there's nothing that forces you to have the skills to defeat it, because someone will usually be along in a few seconds to kill the same spawn. Those Harvester bosses in Dolmens? They die in about 2 seconds, every time, because there are fifteen people targeting her. I'm lucky to get two hits in. How would you learn the gimmick in a fight like that?

There either needs to be more instancing of solo stuff, so people learn this stuff earlier, or everything should be groupable. If people want to solo, they can solo, if people want to group, they can group. It truly doesn't affect Veteran Play by letting people learn to group effectively - there will still be people making it into those ranks who haven't a clue how to win, and did it so far by dumb luck. There'll still be morons who paid to have their character leveled, or handed the controls to a friend and said, "Screw it, can you do it for me?". This just allows people to progress who want to progress. ESO will do what makes it money, and that means the largest amount of players need to be able to play. I'd rather they allowed grouping for the Main Story than continue to nerf things into the ground. Because they'll do one or the other - they've already set a precedent for doing so.

mlstevens42_ESO

Thing is there are several builds that have people have used to already get through the content. As in have already defeated all of these fights. I know I did not copy any build from someone else. So it has to have been possible. So therefore it is not impossible.

Grouping for the main quest things would defeat the you are the hero sort of atmosphere they have made there. It would have to change the flavor of the fights to make them a challenge. Honestly people need to be able to do some of the things that these solo fights teach one to do like block dodge use abilities that are defensive instead of spamming dd stuff all of the time.

Btw I am a Woman I am 49 years old have trouble seeing sometimes in here. Further I am married have a 26 year old kiddo that is married. So it is not like I am some young punk living in parents basement like some assume those that can get through the content are. I do not consider myself a pro by any stretch. Still I am in vr content.