Please Stop Trivializing Content

Sakiri

Funny, because whenever I see someone ask about Doshia they all got told "look it up", "you suck" or "go back to wow".

Face it, theyre going to keep nerfing crap when people cant complete it, regardless of the reason.

They have completion rates and stats on aversge attempts per kill, you dont.

Theyll do what they feel is best, not what a vocal minority on the forums, either side of it, says.

If people havent figured that out after 15 years of MMO gaming, I dont know what to tell you.

nudel

bearcalypse wrote: »

I might be sympathetic to this argument if things were not so buggy. We have no idea if people can't complete missions because NPCs are unresponsive or we have no visual cues from bosses because they just stand there and then you get slammed with their special attack with no wind-up. If people are dying without knowing what got them I suggest they implement a better combat log without forcing people to download an addon for it - at least the addons seem to be less buggy than the actual game.

Exactly...This actually hurts your argument regarding balance. Why is ZOS rebalancing fights where the balance can't be accurately judged by new players because the fights are bugging and/or the players are lagging. You do not come in and rebalance something without first assessing whether it was working properly in the first place. And my hope is that ZOS would actually...I dunno...collect more frickin data before making drastic changes two weeks into launch.

If you're trying to justify balancing with the argument that 'this boss wasn't working right', that defense is about as strong as a straw house in a tornado.

Ben_Cynicb16_ESO

I totally agree that content is being made too easy. I have yet to encounter a dungeon that I could not three man at or below level with two friends. While we have all played MMOs before, two of us are playing class/builds that we are totally unfamiliar with and having to learn almost from scratch. This isn't even slowing us down, which I could accept with some disappointment if there were four of us, but with only three of us the content should surely at least be a challenge.

bearcalypse

nudel wrote: »

If you're trying to justify balancing with the argument that 'this boss wasn't working right', that defense is about as strong as a straw house in a tornado.

My argument has always been to allow people to get help by allowing grouping and in the meantime bring the game into the current decade by allowing mobs and bosses to scale so I can actually enjoy public dungeons and anchor events with a group. I don't see how fixing bugs (which isn't happening nearly fast enough before the free month expires) works against my arguments.

mlstevens42_ESO

I feel part of the reason people seem to have so many problems when they hit these "difficult" encounters is because they have never had to learn how to play the character. There are far to many people in each phase. If there were fewer people they would not be able to mob rush everything. They might learn how to block or that they might need to heal they might learn that standing in a red marked area on the ground is BAD and that one needs to move.

When you have a horde of eight people running in the same area as you and everyone going after the same things no one really has to be able to do anything save make sure they got a hit on the critter in hopes of getting exp. Then suddenly out of the blue they are in a solo instance with no clue. Sure it is going to be difficult for them when this happens. They may not even know what all of their abilities do let alone blocking dodging interrupts.

I too miss those solo adventures taking on things alone and well being alone. In some ways I wish I could go back to the silence, when meeting anyone was a rare thing for me. I knew it would change when it went live, but I had hoped that phasing would be done differently so one could still get the feeling of being in a wilderness.

SMVegas83

I love this thread. A bunch of self-serving people deciding that their idea of fun is what matters. The bottom line is Zenimax made a game and they want as many people as possible to play it, experience it and enjoy it. Sadly, you can't satisfy everyone, and their are a HELL of a lot more casual players than Hardcore players.
Of course that's neither here nor there.

There are plenty of people who don't care to be challenged playing a video game. They're not playing the game to learn anything, because a video game can't teach anything worth knowing as it applies to real life - you know, that thing that happens outside your house. There are plenty of people that don't have self-esteem issues and don't find themselves uplifted by an arbitrary accomplishment on a video game, when they know it is relatively meaningless outside of personal enjoyment. Beat a hard boss? Good for you, give yourself a pat on the back and a brownie button. Im sure your boss will give you an especially large raise on your next review for that meaningless crap.

Bottom Line? Everyone plays a video game for different reasons, their definition of fun is different, and they don't need any of you deciding what that is for them. As for Zenimax? Like it's already been said - they'll do what they think is best for the health of the game on the whole. Nerfs are coming, and they'll probably continue to nerf. It's only going to get easier.

jedensuscg

I agree 100%.

In Beta Gutstripper ripped me to shreds several times, and I had a decent build, but I was failing at the mechanics. I finally figured out the mechanics and what to do that I beat him and it was still close. It had my heart pumping, it was...awesome.

Now in release, I go in, expecting the same tough fight and...own him completely. No pots, no food, barely even dodged his attacks. And I was playing a far weaker build that I was just trying out.

Some bosses I still struggle with, because my build, but I like my build, so I struggle with these bosses, overcome them DESPITE a build that is weak to them (Although I am a FIRM believer that the game should FORCE you to try out different builds for different types of fight. having a one size fits all build will stagnate the game faster than anything else).

Also the whole "play how you want" BS needs to stop. Zenimax needs to retract that marketing ploy. Ok so I want to "play how I want" Well I want to hack and aimbot, what that is illegal? WELL YOU LIED ZENIMAX...

See what I did there. There has to be limits to this mantra for the health of the game.

We need to see difficulty beefed back up, at the very least, a slider for all solo content.

drakuel1ub17_ESO

*sigh*

I only have one question, how in the world did this get on a priority list for patching?

Okay maybe two... With all the issues with progression quests bugs and class skill line issues, you make it a priority to nerf a boss?!!?!?!

God I surely hope this isn't a sign of the future of this game, if they cave into a minority of wines we are in for bad times... I do not care about if it should or should not of been less or more difficult, I am not happy with the decision to even mess with it right now with so many other things we really need fixing first.

These type of changes need to be vetted with the community as a whole for longer period of time, not just half slammed into a patch... GOD where is the quality control guy and if he is on the job FIRE HIM NOW...

You have serious real issues we need to focus on, nerfing bosses or working skill lines right now should not be on the list period!!!!!!!!!!!!! Fix the broken things first, then let's discuss what needs balancing/tweaking for sanity sake..

*walks away shaking his head at this decision*

South_of_Heaven

I couldn't agree more with the OP.

Lately a few "Nerf Molag Bal" threads have been popping up from people who expect instant gratification and in some of these cases, the OPs themselves have admitted that they were quick to complain and as soon as they learned the strategy, the fight was actually easy.

It would really be a shame if they started nerfing content based on some people who were frustrated by their own impatience or unwillingness to actually learn to play the game.

So in case they nerf Molag Bal, it will be very clear to me as to how they will handle the game in the future and - it's the first time I say this - they can count me out of their subscription plan.

Ady

Lets put this simply. Either nerf pve content until a majority can get trough it with no problems or allow people to come in other peoples instances and help with the quest. Either way one of these needs to be done, the majority of people playing this game are not "leet" and other bs thrown around here.

So in conclusion nerf pve or ditch the idiotic phasing system forcing people to solo in an mmo or lose subs and let the "ellite" crowd pay for future content.

South_of_Heaven

Ady wrote: »

Lets put this simply. Either nerf pve content until a majority can get trough it with no problems or allow people to come in other peoples instances and help with the quest. Either way one of these needs to be done, the majority of people playing this game are not "leet" and other bs thrown around here.

So in conclusion nerf pve or ditch the idiotic phasing system forcing people to solo in an mmo or lose subs and let the "ellite" crowd pay for future content.

It's amazing how people whine for a FEW solo quests they have to complete, for which you don't have to be "leet" - you just have to accept that losing is a possibility and learn to move away from red areas!

But you are too spoiled for that, yes? Can't be bothered to actually play, want to breeze through instead and be done with it right? Besides it's only a game, it's not real life, games are supposed to give you things on a silver platter, because that's the definition of a game, right?

SMVegas83 wrote: »

I love this thread. A bunch of self-serving people deciding that their idea of fun is what matters. The bottom line is Zenimax made a game and they want as many people as possible to play it, experience it and enjoy it. Sadly, you can't satisfy everyone, and their are a HELL of a lot more casual players than Hardcore players.
Of course that's neither here nor there.

There are plenty of people who don't care to be challenged playing a video game. They're not playing the game to learn anything, because a video game can't teach anything worth knowing as it applies to real life - you know, that thing that happens outside your house. There are plenty of people that don't have self-esteem issues and don't find themselves uplifted by an arbitrary accomplishment on a video game, when they know it is relatively meaningless outside of personal enjoyment. Beat a hard boss? Good for you, give yourself a pat on the back and a brownie button. Im sure your boss will give you an especially large raise on your next review for that meaningless crap.

I get it, you take s*** on your job and in real life and want to play a game with everything handed to you on a silver platter, putting no effort at all, breezing through the content and feeling accomplished in -at least- something. Is that it?

Because you think that a game will give you exactly that, the instant gratification you don't get from anywhere else, because that's what games are for, right?

And whoever wants something more engaging than achieving things with auto-clicking (which is probably what you love) and something more interractive than watching a movie has issues, right?

Yes, I clearly see who is the one with the issues here mate

Edit: Also you are wrong in what you say about casual and hardcore players. Many casual players, including me, are happy with the difficulty - even disappointed by the lack of it.

*Your* category of players are not the "casual" players, they are people who want to play farmville instead of Elder Scrolls. And they are thankfully fewer than the rest.

SMVegas83

South_of_Heaven wrote: »

But you are too spoiled for that, yes? Can't be bothered to actually play, want to breeze through instead and be done with it right? Besides it's only a game, it's not real life, games are supposed to give you things on a silver platter, because that's the definition of a game, right?

The definition of a game is to be fun. I didn't realize you or anyone else in this thread were any authority on what people should deem fun to them.

You like a challenge? Good for you. Believe it or not, I do too. Difference is I'm not a snob about it, I don't go around acting like people who can't do this stuff are whiners or wrong for feeling like they don't want to be challenged by a video game. Come down off the high horse buddy, being able to overcome a video game doesn't make you all that special, and congregating in a thread with other snobs doesn't make any of you right.

Some dude wants to mindlessly bore through a video game? More power to 'em. When I play a game that isn't challenging enough for me, I either accept that it's not a challenge and enjoy it for what it is, or find ways to challenge myself - I don't come to the game's forum, then whine about all the whiners who are whining and ruining MY experience ... because that's not hypocritical at all, right?

South_of_Heaven

SMVegas83 wrote: »

South_of_Heaven wrote: »

But you are too spoiled for that, yes? Can't be bothered to actually play, want to breeze through instead and be done with it right? Besides it's only a game, it's not real life, games are supposed to give you things on a silver platter, because that's the definition of a game, right?

The definition of a game is to be fun. I didn't realize you or anyone else in this thread were any authority on what people should deem fun to them.

You like a challenge? Good for you. Believe it or not, I do too. Difference is I'm not a snob about it, I don't go around acting like people who can't do this stuff are whiners or wrong for feeling like they don't want to be challenged by a video game. Come down off the high horse buddy, being able to overcome a video game doesn't make you all that special, and congregating in a thread with other snobs doesn't make any of you right.

Some dude wants to mindlessly bore through a video game? More power to 'em. When I play a game that isn't challenging enough for me, I either accept that it's not a challenge and enjoy it for what it is, or find ways to challenge myself - I don't come to the game's forum, then whine about all the whiners who are whining and ruining MY experience ... because that's not hypocritical at all, right?

First of all, who the hell said that I want some difficulty in order to overcome it and then feel special? Feel special? Where do you get these things? From your 10yo kids? Because the other 99% of us who want decent difficulty, don't want it in order to feel special. I just want to do something more interactive than a movie, is that so bad? Because with your line of thought, watching a movie will be equally interactive and engaging.

And congregating in a thread with other people who want to save the game, in order to keep enjoying it, hardly makes us snobs. It's your self-righteous complex that wants us to be snobs. So go ahead and ask them to turn ESO into farmville, we will keep asking for something more... interactive. If the company wants to please the former crowd then so be it. I bet that in the end, they will regret it.

SMVegas83

South_of_Heaven wrote: »

I get it, you take s*** on your job and in real life and want to play a game with everything handed to you on a silver platter, putting no effort at all, breezing through the content and feeling accomplished in -at least- something. Is that it?

Because you think that a game will give you exactly that, the instant gratification you don't get from anywhere else, because that's what games are for, right?

And whoever wants something more engaging than achieving things with auto-clicking (which is probably what you love) and something more interractive than watching a movie has issues, right?

Yes, I clearly see who is the one with the issues here mate

Edit: Also you are wrong in what you say about casual and hardcore players. Many casual players, including me, are happy with the difficulty - even disappointed by the lack of it.

*Your* category of players are not the "casual" players, they are people who want to play farmville instead of Elder Scrolls. And they are thankfully LESS than the rest.

LAWL! Dude ... I love you, no *** of course.

the difference between me and the other people in this thread claiming they don't want the difficulty nerfed is that I don't begrudge other people for having different taste. I love how you all are basically insulting the idea that people don't want to be challenged, and then as soon as I challenge you on that you get all defensive and put words in my mouth. Bravo man. Way to build a solid argument

I don't begrudge you liking a challenge, and I don't begrudge people whose definition of fun is different. I like a challenge, and I like games that aren't a challenge as well.

The sad part is every last one of you should know what's coming. They didn't make this game just for you ... they made this game to make money, and the only way to make more money is more players, and the number of people who want to faceroll through the content outweigh the people who want to be challenged. Keep hunting that white whale though, Ahab. Im sure someday there will be an MMO that cares more about challenging you than attracting more players.

It's not rocket science or prophecy to say this game is going to get nerfed. You think this conversation is going to change that? Goodluck. In the meantime, I just find it funny the way this conversation has gone thus far, all the high and mighty attitudes of the people posting. That was what prompted me to even post at all.

GTaichou

I don't intend to watch this thread and argue semantics or about whose idea of achievement or value is more correct, so please do not even start about that with me. I'm here to throw my voice on the pile;

ZOS, please do not nerf the game any further. In my opinion, it's becoming boring... But the thing that worries me most is that I feel like you're betraying your own (or Bethesda's) vision for this game (or shaming their name). To be completely honest at this point, all other ES games I've played have been more challenging and thus more rewarding than the current state of ESO. For the first time I'm beginning to worry about the future, and it's been hardly two weeks since launch.

If the whispers I hear about veteran content being nerfed in this patch are true, I'll feel like all the work I did in PTS was for nothing. The game will be an escalator to VR10, completed quickly and nothing worth writing home about. It will be no time before Craglorn is also nerfed to hell because the learning curve was too steep. When I tell my friends about the glory days of ESO it will be when it was in PTS...

Sakiri

Well, Ill just say that if enough people arent completing it in a timely manner, theyre going to nerf it.

ZOS has the data, none of us do.

And most people dont use forums. They just leave.

ZOS doesnt want tons of people leaving because its less money for them.

Next thing well have a super hard game but no one playing it and you golks will wonder where everyone went.

Theyre going to nerf it. Its far more effective to increase completion rate by reducing difficulty than trying to increase player skill. Anyone expecting older content to stay hard when new stuff is added makes me laugh.

nickster2112b16_ESO

It just doesn't make sense to nerf all the content they will loose more players from lack of content because everyone just strolled through the game than they will from ppl leaving because its too difficult no idea what ZOS is thinking.

AlchemyDevil

I agree with the OP, the game has been nerfed enough. There has to be a line drawn somewhere. I can understand the casual/unskilled players getting all bent out of shape that they can't beat the game in a week like they have probably done in so many other mmo's in the past. But I believe that's what makes this game better than some of those others.

This mindset of catering to the players that don't wish to learn about game mechanics or learn to use tactics will lead us to yet another boring and un challenging mmo like most of them that we have available to us today. This leads to playing a game that you can easily finish in the first month of play therefore negating any need to subscribe as you can complete everything and move onto the next game.

Why should the developers conform to players that have no desire to play the game as intended? Play it your way, sure, but play it your way while still being able to complete the content. If this trend continues this game will be just like the rest of them, just another mmo. There are soooo many easy, spoon fed, hand holding mmo's out there that a 10 year old can play and win, why turn this game into another one of those? If you can't handle this difficulty just move on to one of the many other options you have available to you, and stop trying to ruin one of the rare few mmo's available that actually poses some challenge.

AlchemyDevil

Sakiri wrote: »

Well, Ill just say that if enough people arent completing it in a timely manner, theyre going to nerf it.

ZOS has the data, none of us do.

And most people dont use forums. They just leave.

ZOS doesnt want tons of people leaving because its less money for them.

Next thing well have a super hard game but no one playing it and you golks will wonder where everyone went.

Theyre going to nerf it. Its far more effective to increase completion rate by reducing difficulty than trying to increase player skill. Anyone expecting older content to stay hard when new stuff is added makes me laugh.

It seems you are assuming that everyone wants what you want? I can guarantee you that there are a lot of players that don't want the difficulty to decrease. Whether that is a minority or majority only a survey could truly indicate. But that is a very narrow minded assumption that no one will play if the game is difficult, just because YOU are not capable of playing at this difficulty does not reflect the opinions of the masses.

Sakiri

AlchemyDevil wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

Well, Ill just say that if enough people arent completing it in a timely manner, theyre going to nerf it.

ZOS has the data, none of us do.

And most people dont use forums. They just leave.

ZOS doesnt want tons of people leaving because its less money for them.

Next thing well have a super hard game but no one playing it and you golks will wonder where everyone went.

Theyre going to nerf it. Its far more effective to increase completion rate by reducing difficulty than trying to increase player skill. Anyone expecting older content to stay hard when new stuff is added makes me laugh.

It seems you are assuming that everyone wants what you want? I can guarantee you that there are a lot of players that don't want the difficulty to decrease. Whether that is a minority or majority only a survey could truly indicate. But that is a very narrow minded assumption that no one will play if the game is difficult, just because YOU are not capable of playing at this difficulty does not reflect the opinions of the masses.

Youre assuming I want it nerfed.

Im not making assumptions. Im stating facts based on 15 years of experience in the genre.

I dont care either way, but Im telling you they arent going to stop nerfing, and that most wont kvetch about difficulty, theyll just leave.

nudel

bearcalypse wrote: »

nudel wrote: »

If you're trying to justify balancing with the argument that 'this boss wasn't working right', that defense is about as strong as a straw house in a tornado.

My argument has always been to allow people to get help by allowing grouping and in the meantime bring the game into the current decade by allowing mobs and bosses to scale so I can actually enjoy public dungeons and anchor events with a group. I don't see how fixing bugs (which isn't happening nearly fast enough before the free month expires) works against my arguments.

One does not presuppose the other. If the boss mechanics are not functioning that does not mean the boss is unbalanced. It means those mechanics are bugged and need fixing.

If you get in a car with a missing tire and fail to make a few laps around a track, do I completely change the track or replace the tire first and then see how the track actually plays out?

Ben_Cynicb16_ESO

As I have stated previously I think this game is becoming too easy, for me and the group of friends I play with regularly and I would like to see difficulty raised again. However this does not mean anyone who prefers an easier difficulty needs to be excluded. There are numerous possible solutions to this problem, and the only thing they have in common is that Zenimax needs to get away from the one-size fits all mentality they seem to be labouring under.

As has previously been suggested, they could open up their solo instances to multiple players (this is an MMO after all). Alternatively they could introduce varying difficulty settings for instanced content.

I agree that many players will simply leave if the difficulty is not to their liking, but what a lot of people on this thread seem to be missing, particularly Sakiri and SMVegas is that the silent percentage of the population applies equally to those who would like to see the difficulty stay the same or get harder as it does to those who want it to go down, and they too will just leave if the game ceases to be what they want it to be. To have a sustainable thriving population ESO needs both groups to stay.

Sakiri

Ive not missed that point Ben. Ive just not mentioned it. Content players usually dont complain and most dont use the forums on both sides.

Ive found that people that prefer difgiculty will more often stick around for social aspects(which is what kept me in wow for 9 years) while people hard stopped from all progression by difficulty dont.

Every time I suggest allowing a partner I get shot with assumptions itll be mandatory. Its no more mandatory than my trying to run a 10 man heroic raid with 6 or 8 people. And Ive done some short handed because wed rather that than pug.

greylox

Even vr content atm isn't too bad. Easy enough to do vr4 and 5 missions with my vr3 character. I just hope 6-10 is more of a challenge.

Nybling

I agree w/ OP.

I am also a member of the "Killed Mannimarco Pre-Nerf on the PTS" Club. That was one helluva fight.

Azyurel

Nybling wrote: »

I agree w/ OP.

I am also a member of the "Killed Mannimarco Pre-Nerf on the PTS" Club. That was one helluva fight.

Same here....sad to see some of these fights so watered down.

Imryll

nickster2112b16_ESO wrote: »

We don't want a game where any bad player can complete the content like other (shall not be named) mmo's we want a challenge, we want too feel like we have achieved something when we finally conquer it.

For some reason this got me to thinking. I'm convinced that in single-player TES certain encounters have dropped in difficulty after a few reloads. I don't see why a multi-player game couldn't do the same thing with solo bosses. Keep it hard for those who want hard, but have encounters self-adjust after repeated failures.

Everyone needs to complete the story, but maybe it's not necessary that we do so in quite the same way.

Or just add a solo boss difficulty setting: easy - normal - hard - insane and let folks do it their way.

Sakiri

Ah yes, thinly veiled wow hate thread. Got it.

Its accessibility isnt whats killing it. Sorry. The fact that its 10 years old is. But Ive been over that on their forums. No need to here.

Nox_Aeterna

I agree with others that said the game should be easy so that it accepts more build kinds and so on.

Honestly , each time i check the DK skills for an example , i cant understand how others can even compare at tanking , and i dont think they do , BUT their classes can also do the job , so it is fine.

It is the same principle , you dont need to be the best/optimal , you dont need food+best crafted gear+right skill combo... To win a fight.

I played skyrim on a dif level most never will , legendary since lvl 1 + TONS of mods to make it MUCH harder , hell mining ore would spam 3 elementals that each could 1 hit me with the heavy atk , but that was skyrim , which is a single player game , and where there no such thing like a role or a class or even content to be done in groups lols.

Lanatireb17_ESO

Why is it that in every mmo after some while an elitist shows up and gathers all the 'this is all much too easy, dont make it even easier' elitists around him? Yes, maybe to YOU those bosses where manageable even at an appropriate level, but maybe, JUST maybe, some people build characters that simply arent fit for the task? Maybe, JUST maybe, some classes are stronger than others, and maybe currently there are skills that arent as strong as others and builds that arent as good?
I dont know what class and skill lines you played my dear friend OP, but rest assured, there are classes that have HUGE problems beating those bosses, and not because they dont dodge or block or hop around or kite, but simply because their CLASS and skill lines arent up to the task?
What about people who put plenty of skill points into crafting?
About those who didnt put any skillpoints into the selfhealing skills every class has?
What about Nightblades? Their skillset currently is utterly broken with about half their skills not doing what they are supposed to do?
What about people who want to enjoy content without having to have the perfect cookie cutter build?
Ah...yes...it doesnt matter to you, i know.
I does matter to Zenimax though. And if 3 people leave because the game is too easy, well, guess what, i already know if some people who stopped playing cause their progress was blocked cause they couldnt defeat storyline bosses.

But because YOU, my dear OP are super imba, along with your three elitist friends, those people dont deserve to finish the storyline quests.. i see.