Please remove the drops from public dungeon bosses

RubyTigress

Punish the bots, not the avg player by eliminating loot.

rager82b14_ESO

RubyTigress wrote: »

Punish the bots, not the avg player by eliminating loot.

Some times you have to punish the players for the sake of the game. This is one of them times, unless they can come up with a clever way of making it give loot like once.

Either way, like some one says the players farming it is just as bad as the bots. So...ya.

MercyKilling

Literally every other MMO has nothing like public dungeons, so nobody can say that "It's normal behavior."
This is the first MMO that I've encountered where a public style dungeon exists. Every other one I've played has been instanced dungeons, so farming hasn't been an issue with interfering with those that don't farm.
Now all of a sudden, the two playstyles are thrust together...and like oil and water...they aren't mixing.
Also, literally every other MMO dungeon has one boss..and loot only drops once from them once you kill them. Bosses do not respawn...unless you exit the dungeon and start from the beginning and run the entire dungeon again.

The broken mechanic/bad design choice was having bosses respawn and public instancing, because THAT is what is promoting spawn camping.

NordJitsu

All we need is fewer people per phase.

Fewer people per phase would solve 90% of the issues with this game.

-Trivial dark anchors
-Impossible to find mats
-Trivial public dungeons
-Players/bots camping certain locations (dungeon bosses)
-Visual annoyance of over crowding
-Impossible to interact with non-phased quest interactables

I could go on and on.

Yes its an MMO, but it was designed to be Elder Scrollsy. All these random people are destroying the experience they tried to build which is heavily based on immersion, challenge, exploration, ect.

knightblaster

MercyKilling wrote: »

Literally every other MMO has nothing like public dungeons, so nobody can say that "It's normal behavior."
This is the first MMO that I've encountered where a public style dungeon exists. Every other one I've played has been instanced dungeons, so farming hasn't been an issue with interfering with those that don't farm.
Now all of a sudden, the two playstyles are thrust together...and like oil and water...they aren't mixing.
Also, literally every other MMO dungeon has one boss..and loot only drops once from them once you kill them. Bosses do not respawn...unless you exit the dungeon and start from the beginning and run the entire dungeon again.

The broken mechanic/bad design choice was having bosses respawn and public instancing, because THAT is what is promoting spawn camping.

Public group PvE content has been in several MMOs. WAR had public quests. Rift had the rifts. There are probably a few others I am forgetting. In every case it's been a nightmare to balance. If it gives good loot, people farm the crap out of it. If it doesn't give good loot, noone does them at all, and so they languish. It's a feature that is understandable, but very hard to balance properly. I am not surprised that ESO is having issues balancing its own public group content. It's "normal" for players to find the most efficient way to get "X" and then to farm the heck out of it 24/7. The issue here is that farming these bosses is too efficient relative to other ways of getting crafting mats, so people are farming the heck out of it, which is interfering with the playstyle of non-farmers. I agree that it needs to be adjusted, but I don't think that the behavior of the players is surprising, given that it is pretty much the most efficient way to get mats to deconstruct for crafting.

Zokten

MercyKilling wrote: »

Literally every other MMO has nothing like public dungeons, so nobody can say that "It's normal behavior."
This is the first MMO that I've encountered where a public style dungeon exists. Every other one I've played has been instanced dungeons, so farming hasn't been an issue with interfering with those that don't farm.
Now all of a sudden, the two playstyles are thrust together...and like oil and water...they aren't mixing.
Also, literally every other MMO dungeon has one boss..and loot only drops once from them once you kill them. Bosses do not respawn...unless you exit the dungeon and start from the beginning and run the entire dungeon again.

The broken mechanic/bad design choice was having bosses respawn and public instancing, because THAT is what is promoting spawn camping.

Literally tons of mmos had things like public dungeons and many of them had world pvp where people could come kill you as your were doing it.

Laerian

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

Laerian wrote: »

Yes, after a long meditation, taking into account many pros and cons, the OP decided to ask devs to remove the loot.

Awesome

Correct, That or one time drop. I figure it would be easier to remove it until they make a choice on what to do. Before mats get out of hand.

It could be daily or every six hours. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

MercyKilling

Okay, I stand/sit corrected. I forgot about RIFT, because it was such a lackluster game to me that I didn't even make it a month before I moved on.

Look, I'm reasonably certain....actually so certain I'm willing to bet an entire month's wages that the developers of THIS game did not sit around a table discussing "how to best design content that players can farm to their heart's content".
I'm also willing to bet that month's pay that farming never became a factor in this game's design. It's not an intended action of the normal flow of game play.
Yes, lots of people do it, but any game designer worth their salary will never design a farm. They design entire games. They WANT players to experience every last bit of the content, not sit in some cave waiting for a boss to spawn so they can get a loot drop.
If that were the intent, why give us players this huge, expansive world to explore? Why populate it with varieties of monsters and make it so lush and beautiful to look at?
Why not just make one dungeon with one boss that pops every five seconds so people can just smack it down and get their loot?
Because it's NOT the majority of people that do this. Farming isn't something everyone does.

I also disagree that it's the most efficient way to get mats to deconstruct for crafting. Takes me fifteen minutes and about three to five circuits on one of my characters to get about 50 high iron ore, 20 orichalcum, 30-35 cotton and about a dozen runes from the mobs between the nodes I'm harvesting.

I get ten times that much for running missions and deconstructing the weapons that drop from the mobs I fight while accomplishing the mission objectives if it's in an open world setting. If it isn't open world, then it's more efficient at leveling.

BUT. I'm not doing all this for "efficiency". The drops are a byproduct of me PLAYING the game and not caring about being "efficient" or "optimal". Just like the developers intended.

I'm willing to wager that if you actually asked one of them "Did you design this part of the game with farming in mind?" that their answer would be "No." And a pretty SWIFT no at that.

Speaking on the "fewer people per phase" "solution"....no. Won't work. Why?
You'll tick off the role players, who are the most loyal of all customers this game could ever have. They are the ones that will pay the subscription for YEARS as long as they're content to do so.
Make it so they can't gather and the game will lose that support, and that, my friends is a VERY BAD thing. Worse than losing farmers, I'd say.

knightblaster

Of course it wasn't designed to be farmed -- I don't disagree with you there. My point is that you have to be very, very, very careful with your public group content, because if you are not it will be relentlessly farmed, and then you will be forced to nerf it. It's happened in other games. It happens precisely because the design failed to take into account the propensity of a certain portion of the playerbase (we can disagree about what the proportion is) to farm what they perceive to be the most efficient means of getting X. If standing in one place and killing a mob that respawns once a minute is guaranteed to drop valuable loot every single time, it will be relentlessly farmed. That is a design issue that should have been foreseen. It apparently wasn't and so now we are having threads and discussions like this about what to do about it. Player proclivities don't really change that much -- you have to design in such ways as to not permit this kind of play, because if you permit it, it will happen to beat the band.

cromica81_ESO

They should probably just make it so that after you complete the public dungeon that character can not enter it anymore because if they take away the loot then there is no reason to go back.

ShinChuck

Before doing anything, I think Zenimax needs to stop and wait.

It's early. It's busy, because it's early. Chances are, things will smooth out over time as the playerbase normalizes.

Personally, I've only had an issue once or twice, usually in prime time, and usually in earlier public dungeons. I haven't had many issues getting tags after leaving the first couple public dungeons behind.

Regardless, stop, wait. See what happens. Don't make ANY drastic adjustments without any idea of the long term affect potential.

Tiyamel

agree with OP, its so hard to get a completion when there is a huge group of RMT with stupid names stood in a bunch auto-*** the boss as soon as it spawns, it then becomes a lottery as to whether you get the completion or have to wait until it respawns again and then its round 2, reporting them seems to do nothing, they just create a new character and do it again, and on a side note while im ranting, im so sick of those cheating node teleporters, invisibly warping to nodes, harvesting and warping away again, so hard to report as you can't see them, however last night i got a split second glimpse of a name (tiwae), reported that bugger quick, Zenimax really needs to sort RMT out before they ruin the game for the rest of us.

Dracovar

cromica81_ESO wrote: »

lordspyder wrote: »

The fact of the matter is that ZOS has said that camping a public dungeon boss is considered harassment under the TOS. It is against the rules, now we need to figure out how to fix it, I agree with the diminishing returns, I think that would work best, you still got a few times to get that cool item before you are cut off.

Also just a side note, make sure you are reporting these tools, camping these bosses is bannable.

A link to this would be nice.

If they really don't want people to do this then they just have to make them *** just like like the instance dungeons.

No, it's not bannable. If I want to kill a dungeon boss nonstop for 10 hours, I can.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/comment/597542/#Comment_597542

"...The act of manually farming these bosses, while possibly not very courteous of others who are trying to have a shot at the content too, is not against our Terms of Service."

Terroni

Why not just make the loot BoP with zero value.

doniecmb16_ESO

knightblaster wrote: »

Public group PvE content has been in several MMOs. WAR had public quests. Rift had the rifts. There are probably a few others I am forgetting.

Yes, pretty much everything before WoW, which by itself brought us some awesome advancements like AH, instances, battelgrounds, mmo e-sports, bread crumbs and question marks over the heads of quest givers, so every half-brain can play it and be milked for monthly sub.

The side effect was that it was targeted by large group of cheaters/exploiters.

ESO si trying to bring some of good old school gameplay back. I am sure they will deal with bot spawn camping problem very soon.

Distrobomb

I think it's working as intended. You probably had to kill a boss a few times before you received credit. Hardly deserving of a change. Keep wasting your time reporting though.

Kyosji

Are you even checking if the player is a bot before reporting them? Whispering to them a few times before reporting? Most people, like myself, have zone, area, and yell disabled because of spam and the addons already flooding their chat box. Sending whispers usually is a better way to get a hold of them.

I say this, because I've already been reported MANY times and had to talk to GMs because some crybaby or idiot started reporting me without checking if I was a bot.

Just a heads up on you as well, if you falsely report enough players as bots, YOUR account can be punished.

Sarenia

Better solution:

Killing the boss means he'll give no rewards for 'n' amount of time.

Makes farming impractical.

RustyBlades

PUDs should have an initial quest that awards a shot at good loot (a random urn). Said quest should be a daily quest, repeatable daily. The boss should also be instanced to the quest. No daily, no boss.

Zakua

I don't want Bots in game, I am sure I may have come across a few but honestly nothing has stopped me from getting what I want in this game...yet...

I am not a Bot but if I run a dungeon and get to the Boss, I'm going to have a whack at him several times before I throw in the towel/get bored/get what I want and move on. I do not see anything wrong with this, do you?

I come from games where you "farm" the crap outa bosses until you get what you want (BL1,BL2 and so on). I'm not going to run an entire dungeon just to get a white qual staff of frost from a Boss, nope, I'm going to dig in and execute him repeatedly with extreme prejudice until he gives me something to move on with.

Bots are bad but lets not generalize and pool determined players into the problem.

JJDrakken

Simple solution. Have the bosses drop a key, unique with up to 1-3 times your allowed to loot said key.

Then add a loot chest that allows people to then get a random chance of the loot drop from it. Always have the chest give soul gems(full) & random stuff from that bosses loot table.

If peeps are afraid of chest camping(keeping it open to grief others), have it be an NPC at the front of the dungeon that will then exchange you a loot bag for said keys.

Resipsa131

I am a newcomer to MMOs and it hasn't been a huge problem for me personally but if you create a large supply of rare items (antithetical to say the least) the demand and price will go down. Is that a good or bad thing for long term viability?

Ohioastro

I'd prefer it, to be honest, if there were areas with heavy densities of mobs and numerous spawn points with random pops. People who like farming could go there and there would be lots of drops. The dungeons could be for people interested in doing the quests, and the bosses could give nice quest credit for a single drop and then drop nothing (to encourage people to move onto other places.)

This provides both an alternative for the farmers and a reward for the questers.

zaria

Dracovar wrote: »

cromica81_ESO wrote: »

lordspyder wrote: »

The fact of the matter is that ZOS has said that camping a public dungeon boss is considered harassment under the TOS. It is against the rules, now we need to figure out how to fix it, I agree with the diminishing returns, I think that would work best, you still got a few times to get that cool item before you are cut off.

Also just a side note, make sure you are reporting these tools, camping these bosses is bannable.

A link to this would be nice.

If they really don't want people to do this then they just have to make them *** just like like the instance dungeons.

No, it's not bannable. If I want to kill a dungeon boss nonstop for 10 hours, I can.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/comment/597542/#Comment_597542

"...The act of manually farming these bosses, while possibly not very courteous of others who are trying to have a shot at the content too, is not against our Terms of Service."

Farming bosses is legal, farming quest bosses in a way who block others from completing the quest is not. I think I saw one farming in Grathwood quama mine, an quest dungeon, however here the boss was not the actual objective but some notes nearby so the farming made the quest easier, this was also farmed by players as people was jumping around and doing other stuff while waiting, using restoration staff I was able to get an credit for kill but did not get any good loot, had I gotten good loot I would probably stayed for 15-20 minutes before getting bored and moved on.

thedemiseraphb14_ESO

There are lots of things in the game on easily controlled timers. Hirelings, spawns etc.

So if you make it so that you can loot a public dungeon boss once a day, this will solve many issues. It will control bots. It will control farming. It will spread out the population in these so everyone gets their turn to get the boss. It will make griefers obvious. It will give you a reason to bounce through all the public dungeons. etc etc

Thoughts and feelings on this?

Also, this doesn't stop you from helping someone else get their loot that day etc if in a group.

rawne1980b16_ESO

Anthony45122 wrote: »

But I would prefer them dropping no loot rather than have bots or other players for that matter camping them and not letting others get loot.

"I can't have so no one can have"....

Anthony45122

rawne1980b16_ESO wrote: »

"I can't have so no one can have"....

Hahaha kid how about going back and reading the comments after that. I get my loot everytime I go to a public dungeon so try your flaming elsewhere.

Turial

MercyKilling wrote: »

Literally every other MMO has nothing like public dungeons, so nobody can say that "It's normal behavior."
This is the first MMO that I've encountered where a public style dungeon exists. Every other one I've played has been instanced dungeons, so farming hasn't been an issue with interfering with those that don't farm.
Now all of a sudden, the two playstyles are thrust together...and like oil and water...they aren't mixing.
Also, literally every other MMO dungeon has one boss..and loot only drops once from them once you kill them. Bosses do not respawn...unless you exit the dungeon and start from the beginning and run the entire dungeon again.

The broken mechanic/bad design choice was having bosses respawn and public instancing, because THAT is what is promoting spawn camping.

Completely wrong. Guild wars 2 is a perfect example where you have bosses outside of dungeons that can be farmed by both bots and players every 30 mins or or so, just because it is above ground does not mean a server is not a public dungeon. Guild wars 2 also has instanced dungeons but which players/bots will farm the bosses in there for their unique items all day, at one point you would only see farm groups for dungeons or worse you would get to that boss in the dungeon and your team would leave so they can farm it again, leaving you on your own not able to finish the dungeon. Dungeons also have multiple bosses to farm. Finally there are the champion mobs which offer fantastic loot and huge zergs of players just run the map in circles hitting these champs one by one in order for max loot profit and if you need to kill that champ well then good luck to you. So to some up you are completely wrong based on the fact you generalised every other MMO and my guess is you have played one, perhaps two others.... one of which was WoW but don't quote me on that guess if I am wrong but personally I don't think I am.

Chiren

They can just put a decay on it. After say - killing the boss 5 times in a day he doesn't drop any item loot until the next day.

Danarchist

Bots I reported last week were still standing at the same spot when I ran a second character through Sunday. Either they do not have any active GM staff or they consider bots a minor annoyance and are not going to ban them. Dxfysz I am sure appreciates this.