Should Auction House be Public or Guild only?

Nox_Aeterna

NaciremaDiputs wrote: »

Tarelyn wrote: »

Eris wrote: »

I voted guild only mostly because I feel that server wide auction houses just lead to market manipulation and price gouging. People just sit there all day buying up the cheap stuff and listing it for way more than its worth artificially inflating the value of items.

i understand what you mean. but dont u think they will still do that in Guild anyway?
i mean, in theory, no... but people r people anyway. and greed is still greed.
i just dont get it.

The guild approach allows the guild to respond to this type of behavior however they see fit.

In a public AH there is no way to enforce undercutting or resellers. The buyers just have to suck it up and deal with it. In a guild store though, the guild leaders can monitor the behavior of the guild members and enforce their own rules about how to deal with people who try to manipulate the economy in ways that may be unfair.

Basically, guild stores create smaller pocket economies where the members can choose to participate if the rules are in line with their ideals, whereas a global AH forces all players into a single economy where there are little to no rules, no enforcement of any rules beyond what the game servers provide, and where the richest players are the only ones who stand a chance of participating in a real economy.

Guild stores are a superior system for players in my opinion.

Actually , only reason guilds stores create a problem , is the 25%. Which is a huge cut.

Otherwise , buy in one guild , sell in the other guild for profit. Problem solved.

It is possible atm , and there is profit to be made , but the 25% does take a cutting.

Jeremy

NetViperX wrote: »

Being a person that has to deal with the public for a living I have developed a very sizable dislike for people. I avoid guilds and groups like the plague because of the many annoyances that come from having to deal with people and their BS. So for me a server wide AH would be a blessing.

Same.

Expecting us to wade through trade spam or negotiate over video game item prices just isn't what I consider to be fun or a worthwhile use of my time.

There are way better ways to be social on a video game than haggling and spamming. Like those new adventure zones they have been touting. Those sound like a fun and social experience. Spamming trade chats not so much.

vencibushy

unknowngamer wrote: »

Absolutely yes.

Honestly I cannot believe this is even being debated against in this day and age. Its seems as if all the naysayers are liberal hipsters who took a couple courses in economics, graduated with rose-coloured glasses and want to take a grassroots approach to markets returning us to the stone age in terms of trading and wealth acquisition. Here are a couple rebuttals to common global AH worries:

1) Global AH destroys communities by negating face to face trading
Couple issues here. First off, this isn't the olden-days of 1999 EQ and UO where you spammed EC tunnels and posted wares on trading sites because that was your only option to trade in an efficient manner. AH's main purposes are to sell your goods quick and easy so you can get back to actually playing the game. For every guy /saying in EC chatting it up with others there were another 10 alt-tabbing to pass boredom. No community there.
Secondly, AH is the least of things to worry about with the megaserver phasing concept. Sure if you find friends you like you can add them and switch instances but as far as dynamic communities of good people its impossible. The game chooses which community we default to every time we log in. When 2/3 of zone chat is tradespam and you come across guilds named named Christpunchers and guys named Anahlphist (I'm not making this up) global AH is not what worries me in a community sense.

2) Global AH opens up possibilities for mass market manipulation and price gouging

As if Wall Street doesn't do this on a daily basis. You can't stop people from buying low and selling high its the foundation of trade and is what separates the wealthy from those that stay wealthy. Actually, price gouging will be more likely to happen in a closed market than an open one. Hell, its what us smiths in UO at the Britain forge did every day. We knew damn well that a full suit of plate wasn't worth 7.5-10k and so did the buyers - but it was either us or vendor trash so you paid what we told you. By not allowing a broad market to examine current lows and highs of pricing items your more likely to get screwed than not. Already rarer items are quoted by players as "make an offer". In trade, saying that is the same thing as saying "I have no clue about the value of goods I possess so you tell me what they are worth so I don't look like an idiot". This isn't poker where checking has a bluff-based tactile benefit. If the offer was not what you wanted your going to counter-offer the price you had in mind anyway so just say it up front and don't waste other people's time. In the end, you're more likely to feel pressured to undersell to unload quicker because god knows when you'll receive another offer due to the difficulty receiving recognition in chatspam. AH's at the very least allow you to ballpark the value of your goods.

3) The main concern is controlling the spread of epic/rare items
If ZOS biggest worry is to control the trade-based acquisition of end-game epic gear fine - make them BOP like the good old days and you remove this fear entirely. If people want the best then they have to earn it by doing. Sounds fair to me.

In closing, its quite clear most people want an auction house. Already most people have 4/5 of their guilds as trading guilds making their trading market already the size of a non-wow MMO server. And to be quite honest most people only fully commit to 1 guild, they tend to be an all-in affair and rightfully so. Nobody wants a part-time guild member with relaxed guild loyalty. Doesn't make for the best bedfellow.

Stop believing the free market is an omnipotent evil entity corrupting the world because it simply isn't. There are far more ravenous socio-economic systems and policies that damage the distribution of wealth. For all you Uni kiddies out there take what you need from your courses in Economics but don't turn into a social democrat calling for more market intervention - it will sort itself out. If your prof was really so smart he or she would be out there making a fortune as opposed to 50K a year with nothing to show for it but a set of Birkenstock sandals putting in time for their pension.

I could not agree more!!! And that comes from my MC's in economics Objectively the current situation looks like a government trying to over-regulate a free market by keeping it fragmented and unconsolidated.

Though the current system might have some known virtues I am against it. So far the end result could be narrowed to the following effects:

1. Very limited amount of potential buyers -> in theory - up to 5 guilds by 500 people.
2. Slow distribution of goods -> crafting leads to almost nonexistent way of making profit out of a basic form of labor(resource gathering, manufacturing and crafting, marketing and selling). At the present, crafting has almost none or even negative profitableness.
3. Limited access to resources -> the best gear will only be available from crafting. In limited market, obtaining rare high quality materials will be virtually impossible.

Artificially limited markets have even more flaws like artificially low prices driven by limitations and not free market. If something is in high demand and low supply it WILL cost a lot, no mater what. If it isn't, it will not!

My subjective impressions so far:
1. Stiff interface. The guild store function is hard to use and the lack of search function is a big issue.
2. House cuts are way too hefty. On top of this you pay them prior to the actual transaction. So no mater what, you lose money if the transaction is unsuccessful.
3. Selling many items actually might end up in major LOSSES. The current limited market does not allow for fast enough turnovers and at the end a player could end-up with with tons of items "for sale" and huge amount of money paid upfront for guild store fees.
4. A guild is supposed to be a union of player against the challenges posed ingame. The current system goes totally against this simple basic function of a guild. A guildie is supposed to be your friend ingame to whom you help. Turning your guildies in a potential market neglects this simple rule formed by many years and MMORPG games. There are just some things in this world that could not be moderated and forced. It basically makes people look at their guildies like a big sack of gold and not like a friends. ALSO IT TURNS GUILDS INTO A SMALL SHOPPING MALLS. And we all know people love SHOPPING MALLS right? NAAAHHH!

Don't make me wrong. I'm doing just fine in this current system. Took me just 3 days to buy a 42k horse

MercyKilling

RakeWorm wrote: »

The reasoning for my opinion is rather simple: I want gold to stay almost irrelevant. An auction house would change that.

If gold is almost irrelevant, then why are people selling motifs for 1.5-2k gold?
Why are people selling vamp/ww bites for 10+k gold?
Ingame currency is hardly irrelevant, nor should it ever be, because if it -is- irrelevant, then there could never BE an ingame economy.

For me, the current system is railroading me into doing something I don't want to do in order to participate in the barter/trade system. TWO things, actually.
1) Join a guild.
2) Enter a PvP zone.

I cannot avail myself of a guild store without doing one of the two things listed.
THAT needs to change....and having an AH changes it.

Not to mention, I've seen pics of the current interface and read tons of posts about how hard it is to navigate and utilize. Not that I think an AH would solve -those- problems...it seems it would certainly get it actioned upon faster, due to everyone in the game having to utilize it, instead of only guilds and their members.
Also not to mention...we forum-goers are but a small chunk of the player base.

Razkiel

I didn't read through all the pages of responses, but instead of a world wide AH, how about a Faction AH, that would actually make more sense from a lore perspective. Maybe have a multi-Faction AH in the PVP area, but for the most part have it be restricted to each faction.

Seraseth

I'd definitely agree it should be faction based, that would cut the size down some. Would also make more sense lore wise.

Supersomething

Razkiel wrote: »

I didn't read through all the pages of responses, but instead of a world wide AH, how about a Faction AH, that would actually make more sense from a lore perspective. Maybe have a multi-Faction AH in the PVP area, but for the most part have it be restricted to each faction.

I would be fine with a faction based Auction House. Just as long as everyone can post and sell in the same one and it isn't segregated off like it is now. A Black Market or something like that in the PVP zone would also be spectacular.

Greydog

wrlifeboil wrote: »

The problem in a public AH would be in limiting the selection of items in the AH in that virtual realm to the players currently within that realm. Sellers could potentially be moved into different virtual realms even in the course of a hour. It would probably mean there wouldn't be any form of outstanding bids allowed. A buyer would either have to purchase the item listed in the auction house or they would run the risk of being placed in a different virtual realm the next time they zoned or logged. Then there would be problems if the seller of the item was moved to a different virtual realm when he zoned or logged. I'm sure the devs have gone through this before and it probably influenced the development of what we have in guild stores. So I don't expect any kind of global AH any time soon.

Interesting.

Possibly a solution could be found in a feature WoW used to solve a completely different issue.

With their battlegrounds they were having problems getting enough players on a server to fill them. Their response was to create "battlegroups" by putting different servers together to increase the pool of players to draw from.

Along those lines ESO could have "Consortiums" and assign players/guilds to them to ensure that they're market would always be the same instance.

I realize that was most likely their motives behind the current system but IMO they cut access off far short of where it should be.

cecilzero1

no because it will give the botters more of a foothold in the game

Attorneyatlawl

I'd like to see a per-Cyrodiil-campaign auction house, maybe. Maintain the more local economies but not make it as small as it is now.

Krayor

Greydog wrote: »

As I said in my original post here. I cannot vote because the choices are either one or the other when neither is the better option.

I don't agree that it was taken out of context, but whatever...

If you read the poll, you would see that it states whether an auction house (or store) should be guild only or or be public (server wide). The poll mentions nothing about replacing guild stores. Guild stores could be easily converted to reach the general public in more areas than PvP keeps. So based on your post you would be voting for a public store. The poll is too ambiguous to simply state it's "all or nothing".

I think your observation is a good reason why they went with Guild Stores. Perhaps it was a technical limitation or even a nightmare to figure out stable programming to support the "realm" issue.

I think if it was then Zenimax would've stated it. It never has. I gave the reason that Zenimax went for this design in my original post in this thread. That's all that's been said about it.

I don't feel that the server technology effects a system like this. Otherwise, we'd be having problems with the guild stores as well. You're responding to some pretty wild assumptions about the phasing technology. There are systems that are going to be separated from the systems that deal with phasing, such as the mail system, help system, and the current guild store systems. A system such as a public AH (or any type of store system) would more likely be separate from the phasing systems also. In short, it's not likely a technical issue, but a design issue.

Drachenfier

Killum wrote: »

I don't see the need for a global marketplace and I am a crafter. In every game that I have played that has them, prices become inflated and the economy gets out of hand or the system gets abused. A global marketplace is very hard to control but as others have mentioned a guild market can be controled by the guild members and is less susceptible to abuse. However I do think an Auction channel in chat is needed just to get people selling/trading items out of the main zone chat.

I have experienced the exact opposite of what you describe here, in every mmo i've played with an AH. I'd be willing to bet that you have too, but as a crafter that wants to market his wares, you don't want to be undercut by people. When supply exceeds demand, prices drop. In isolated markets, this isnt' the case, thus allowing the gougers to continue to gouge.

Gedalya

I have no doubt changes will be needed for this game over time; but I would prefer to play the game as the developers intended with changes enhancing that vision instead of changing it.

Lets play and enjoy the game as it is; with out quickly rushing to demand it be patched to conform to <Name of Generic MMO Here>.

Greydog

Krayor wrote: »

Greydog wrote: »

As I said in my original post here. I cannot vote because the choices are either one or the other when neither is the better option.

I don't agree that it was taken out of context, but whatever...

If you read the poll, you would see that it states whether an auction house (or store) should be guild only or or be public (server wide). The poll mentions nothing about replacing guild stores. Guild stores could be easily converted to reach the general public in more areas than PvP keeps. So based on your post you would be voting for a public store. The poll is too ambiguous to simply state it's "all or nothing".

I read your post, your choices were "should be guild only or be public (server wide)" ...As much as I dislike the guild only option I still don't believe it should be server wide.

I personally like the idea of ZOS building Bazaars on some of that unused map space where guilds can place merchants.

If you had an "other" choice I would have chosen that and elaborated upon my idea in my post. Sans that choice I can't vote because as I stated neither of the others are the better option. (IMO)

Xen91

GUILD ONLY

Chomppa

I'm happy with just guild trades , no need to really change it , but if majority wants an auction house then they'll get it .

Streega

Global AH is a paradise for the gold-sellers, can't you understand this? You can always kick the cheater out from the guild (and the store), but you can't remove him from the global AH - well, you can report him of course, but... No, the Guild Stores are all we need to "live long and prosper"

Tarelyn

Gedalya wrote: »

I have no doubt changes will be needed for this game over time; but I would prefer to play the game as the developers intended with changes enhancing that vision instead of changing it.

Lets play and enjoy the game as it is; with out quickly rushing to demand it be patched to conform to <Name of Generic MMO Here>.

Understand your thought,
however...

1). It was intended to be like the ElderScrolls. Where Archery is actually incredibly fun and as close to realistic as ever seen in a game, as far as i know anyway.

@ ESO, however, its borked beyond belief. Only way that will ever change is if enough common sense posters get through *someones* thick head enough to consider changing it.

2). No one is asking for it to conform to any other MMO.
Just making it useful would be a small victory.
i personally dun care for limiting meh wares to a single (or 5) guilds who, when they cant have something at their desired price, they'll cry & punt ya.
what kind of bs is that?
if i work hard for sumpin, ill b danged if im going to sell it for next to nothing to someone just bcoz he is a "guildee"
(whom i don't know any better than any other toon in the open world)

i GIVE stuff to a guildee.
i dun like selling it to them.
and thats the only option in this silly screwed up idea of an AH.

did anyone mention that the Gold Standard in this game is horrid?
ex: buy sword 500g.
sell it 8g.

cmon.

spend 6 hours running around simply farming.
afer breaking down worthy junk, the sell junk nets you very little.

yea, changes need made.
and this is one of them!

Zershar_Vemod

Voted 'Public.'

No reason to make it solely guild.

stojekarcub18_ESO

so much chatter on this subject... have you actually gone out and explored the world??? you should NEVER have the need to buy anything in this game.

LimeFox

Here's my problem as a crafter. Right now, if none of my 5 guilds is selling an item like Turpen - which totally happens, because it's popular and in high demand - and I haven't discovered or extracted any, I can't buy it. And please don't tell me to spam zone chat for a seller and hope that seller doesn't then take my money and run.

I'm for an auction house. It keeps people honest. For example, I make a tidy profit in FF14 selling accessories I craft. Those accessories had better be low priced and high quality though, or no one will buy them. If FF14 did ESO's system, I could start selling Mythril Ear Cuffs for 30k as long as I had the only stock in town. Yeah, my guild might boot me, but if they had no other way to get those earrings for the time being, they probably wouldn't. Since they have the auction house in place, supply and demand largely keeps things fair - try selling those Mythril Ear Cuffs for more than 900 gil, and no one will buy them, ever, because other people offer it cheaper.

I hate people price-undercutting me too, especially when I listed a fair price, but I'd rather have that than be gouged for it.

AbraCadabra

It's a Store not an Auction House.

LimeFox

stojekarcub18_ESO wrote: »

so much chatter on this subject... have you actually gone out and explored the world??? you should NEVER have the need to buy anything in this game.

I disagree. I spend HOURS scouring the world for mats and grinding enemies to deconstruct the weapons they drop, and I never ever have enough Hemming/Pitch right now. I've got more than enough money to drop on it, but my guild doesn't sell it, and I'm not spamming zone chat. And this is with added perks to obtain items via retainers and deconstruction.

If I have the money to buy it, why shouldn't I be able to? If it's rare, then fine, I'll pay a premium for it. But a market board would at least give me a third party to hold the money/items in escrow, rather than relying on someone's good will not to get scammed via email.

dpayne83_ESO

Public auction houses open up the option for people to hold monopolies on certain things. Take the rare motif books for instance. If someone has the money they would buy them all and mark them up to ridiculous prices and keep doing it so the other gamers don't have a choice but to buy their overpriced wares. If anything the auction houses should be by zone, not server wide.

van.cannonb14_ESO

definitely server wide.

JunkyardWolf

you need a "no auction houses" button

chaosngn_ESO

They need to do one of the three:

1. Institute a mass auction house
2. Cut back on how many drops people get
3. Cheapen bag space

Far too many greens and blues are dropping in this game. That makes it difficult to have an economy without an auction house. Selling in the guild store isn't working as a solution since bag and bank space is so expensive later on and since so many people are getting the drops, they are hard to sell in /zone to begin with. Not only that, we're basically spamming the hell out of /zone with sales.

This means you are loaded down with greens and blues and basically can't sell them quick enough or do anything with them.

If they cut down the drop rates, this would help. But the best solution overall is a marketplace.

What I would suggest is have auction houses be realms just like PvP. You have to pick one to be on, and you can change your auction house realm only once per week/month.

This would help alleviate the strain on the mail/auction servers since it is one megaserver.

chaosngn_ESO

Tarelyn wrote: »

cant see any valid reasoning for Guild Only. Does anyone have any input on why its like that in the first place?
ive only played one other MMO (-DDO-) so maybe im bit clueless that way.
is it like this in other games?

Yes, gold sellers.

Think about this. They can farm all day long, but without a massive auction house, they can't sell the items they get to make the gold they sell unless it's in a guild or in trade.

We've seen how effective they are in trade, and most guilds wouldn't stand for it. My guess is that this was a decision from the beginning to combat gold selling.

rwood0604_ESO

I could not vote TBH but i do have a great idea if i must say much like the game Conquer which is now Conquer 2.0 they have a marketplace a lot of games do actually but anyways it would be new to see a city in the game made for setting up a store and selling goods down rows of rented out spots much like a Flea market and still keep the guild stores up but I don't personal think we should have an AH that spans across every player in the game

mdziur

One single AH will cause the economy to become like all the other MMOs that have a single public auction house... sky high prices, even worse RTM players farming and gold selling. it will just be a mess. Everything will be way too expensive. A single point of sale system (like a single public auction house) is much easier to control and manipulate than a decentralized economy.

A Decentralized economy is less affected by RTM players and market manipulators because they can only affect the guilds they join. Thereby limiting their affect on the overall game economy.

People who want high prices will support a single public AH because it is easier to manipulate. A stack of ingots should not cost 1000g or more. It should cost about 100g. No matter what type of ingot it is. Low prices means everyone can have access to all the goods they want.

Greedy money grubbers want high prices. I just want to play the game. I don't want to see it turn into any of the other MMOs with singe AH's. That would suck.