Movement and Speed Must be addressed

Mayrael · October 15

Just a sorc thread to make streak even stronger

Vaqual · October 15

I have heard from multiple people who didn't give ESO a try that the ugly running animation is what turned them off to begin with when they looked at ingame footage. Triggering the sprint animation at sub 40% movement speed bonus looks so incredibly bad.

Edit: I know that is only tangentially related to the subject, but I end up avoiding permanent movement modifiers just because I can't bear looking at the animation. Quite the handicap.

DrSlaughtr · October 15

Lystrad wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

There is no "Major Defile" button you can just spam on a target, for example. If there was simply a skill that dispelled buffs, it would simply be too strong.

Slight correction here, there is a spammable source of major defile. The templar ability dark flare. Single target spammable that applies major defile in a small area around it's target.

Back on topic, I like the idea of lowering the speed cap. I understand why people don't want speed lowered because people like to go fast, but I think it's important to consider that "tankiness" has three facets, and movement speed is the third, it's not just healing and mitigation. If you want to soften a tank meta, then all three need to be nerfed in tandem. Mitigation so that players take more damage, healing so that they recover slower, and speed to increase the time they spend vulnerable in the open between points of cover.

Given that this is mostly a pvp concern I'm open to the idea of reduced speed being something that specifically comes into effect under battle spirit, and I am also sympathetic towards the people who want to be able to get from point a to point b quickly out of combat so one compromise I could see would be to also have an in combat speed and out of combat speed, where in combat the speed bonuses have the new values, but out of combat they're returned to their original values.

I said "major defile button" as in a skill whose sole purpose is to apply the debuff to a target or area with no counterplay.

There used to be a thing called defile warden (I played one) where you walked into a group, applied major and minor defile plus a few other nasties, and watch them to boom. Nothing you could do about it, groups complained endlessly, and so they made it less viable.

Back to the topic.

Nothing described in this thread is because of speed, other than the target can escape your melee bubble before you can get off your attack. That's why we have things called gap closers and CCs.

Also by making this BS only, we're admitting that this is a PVP salt issue. You're okay with players burning through open world, stealing all the resource nodes and killing all the NPCs, but not someone putting work into and sacrificing set and CP slots to move a little quicker on the battlefield.

This is all about "I can't land attacks so I want everyone dragged down to accommodate my personal limitation."

Attacks miss all the time on guards and stationary players because it's a client to server to client issue.

If you want to attack people who are faster than you can get off your skills and animation cancelling, then play range.

Soarora · October 15

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

NuarBlack wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

NuarBlack wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

There’s much bigger problems than player speed for dev time to focus on. Like why don’t skills go off reliably (hitting 1 skill several times in a row, you’ll notice it skips casts), why is necro so bad at anything other than tank, why is templar, etc. I can’t think of any mechanic you can straight up skip by being too fast as most if not all mechanics that chase you actually go faster the longer they’re up and bosses can’t be kited anymore due to anti-roll mechanics.

Wait, you serious? One of the primary reasons skills don't fire is desync caused by too much speed. Speed is the primary culprit. Slowing down the game would literally improve skills firing more consistently.

And before you go blaming the servers think about what you are asking especially after you made the argument that the devs need to be efficient with their time. What is easier? Adjusting player speed or expensive server overhauls?

In what way? Stand completely still in a house with only you and hit a skill like combat prayer as many times as you can in a row onto the ground. It doesn’t matter that no one is moving, inputs get skipped. That’s what I was referring to.

Player speed isn’t the only problem, if its a problem at all.

Well you can't exceed the GCD. That isn't inputs not registering or Well it is but very much intentional. Never have inputs not register on the GCD when I have good latency. Mashing buttons faster than the GCD isn't proving anything.

It's not that I'm trying to hit skills faster than the GCD, it's that consistently skills will cast on each GCD except sometimes the skill doesn't cast at all. Only way I could think of this having anything to do with GCDs is if the GCD is slightly off to the point that it adds up and results in a null GCD.

That has nothing to do with the target's speed…

Read back through the comment chain, that’s my point. It has nothing to do with anyones speed because it happens even in a solo instance with no one moving.

boi_anachronism_ · October 15

silky_soft wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

PeacefulAnarchy wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Even with the suggested changes, the majority of pve is left unchanged.... not like you go into dungeons/raid slotting celerity, swift, expedition pots. Sprint speeds would be practically unaffected for farming if that's your thing. I dont think the entirety of combat should be balanced around new players farming resource nodes or mob pulls not wanting to sprint or gap close.

There are a number of pve fights in both dungeons and trials where people use celerity and expedition sources to properly kite mechanics and to move in a coordinated fashion, It's true that going to the level of using swift jewelry or wild hunt is rare, but not unheard of. most prominent examples are cloudrest and asylum trials, but all kite and boss teleport mechanics are aided by speed boosts. thay aren't necessary, but they are a useful build option and the tradeoff in pve is currently pretty balanced.

I understand, but there are a variety of other work arounds available. I'd think in raid instances if speed was that necessary due to the lack of player skill/awareness you would want a healer or offtank slotting sources like rapids or path instead of everyone dropping damage. Even so cutting walking speed bonuses by half would have minimal effect on those maybe scenarios. Compensation can easily be added with sprint speed through cp, as that would be the mechanic counter.

.... .. .One of my trifecta teams is aussi and im ps/na. The lag when i run with them is pretty brutal. I dont get remotely the same reaction time. Figured this out comparing povs. When im doing kite mechs, especially for portals i depend on speed to counter balance the server issues.. that would be awful.

That's why there needs to be a base speed boost to higher latency players. To counter the most important mechanic in eso, position check.

I can jump and land on my screen before the jump happens on the wife's pc next to me. That's the difference which makes me believe the ping detailed in the game is double of what it actually represents.

Thats nice. Until performance is fixed something like this would only cause more issues.

MincMincMinc · October 15

Soarora wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

NuarBlack wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

NuarBlack wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

There’s much bigger problems than player speed for dev time to focus on. Like why don’t skills go off reliably (hitting 1 skill several times in a row, you’ll notice it skips casts), why is necro so bad at anything other than tank, why is templar, etc. I can’t think of any mechanic you can straight up skip by being too fast as most if not all mechanics that chase you actually go faster the longer they’re up and bosses can’t be kited anymore due to anti-roll mechanics.

Wait, you serious? One of the primary reasons skills don't fire is desync caused by too much speed. Speed is the primary culprit. Slowing down the game would literally improve skills firing more consistently.

And before you go blaming the servers think about what you are asking especially after you made the argument that the devs need to be efficient with their time. What is easier? Adjusting player speed or expensive server overhauls?

In what way? Stand completely still in a house with only you and hit a skill like combat prayer as many times as you can in a row onto the ground. It doesn’t matter that no one is moving, inputs get skipped. That’s what I was referring to.

Player speed isn’t the only problem, if its a problem at all.

Well you can't exceed the GCD. That isn't inputs not registering or Well it is but very much intentional. Never have inputs not register on the GCD when I have good latency. Mashing buttons faster than the GCD isn't proving anything.

It's not that I'm trying to hit skills faster than the GCD, it's that consistently skills will cast on each GCD except sometimes the skill doesn't cast at all. Only way I could think of this having anything to do with GCDs is if the GCD is slightly off to the point that it adds up and results in a null GCD.

That has nothing to do with the target's speed…

Read back through the comment chain, that’s my point. It has nothing to do with anyones speed because it happens even in a solo instance with no one moving.

You ever try chasing someone with whirlwind when both players are at max movement speed? You can be practically inside their player model and not have the hit register. The difference in speed highly contributes to differences between clients and server. By the time the skill activates and checks from the cast location, the players are outside of the range. Even in pve it is possible to happen if the client thinks they are closer to a target and activate the skill, but they are not actually close enough from what the server sees.

If run speed was reduced these scenarios would be less likely, and would only happen when the defending player is sprinting. Which at that point itd be somewhat acceptable since the defending player is taking a cost action(sprint) to defend.

Again, for other's comments changing the speed cap is a poorly thought through blanket fix on a dumpster fire of a standardization issue that has been ignored for years.

DrSlaughtr · October 15

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

NuarBlack wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

NuarBlack wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

There’s much bigger problems than player speed for dev time to focus on. Like why don’t skills go off reliably (hitting 1 skill several times in a row, you’ll notice it skips casts), why is necro so bad at anything other than tank, why is templar, etc. I can’t think of any mechanic you can straight up skip by being too fast as most if not all mechanics that chase you actually go faster the longer they’re up and bosses can’t be kited anymore due to anti-roll mechanics.

Wait, you serious? One of the primary reasons skills don't fire is desync caused by too much speed. Speed is the primary culprit. Slowing down the game would literally improve skills firing more consistently.

And before you go blaming the servers think about what you are asking especially after you made the argument that the devs need to be efficient with their time. What is easier? Adjusting player speed or expensive server overhauls?

In what way? Stand completely still in a house with only you and hit a skill like combat prayer as many times as you can in a row onto the ground. It doesn’t matter that no one is moving, inputs get skipped. That’s what I was referring to.

Player speed isn’t the only problem, if its a problem at all.

Well you can't exceed the GCD. That isn't inputs not registering or Well it is but very much intentional. Never have inputs not register on the GCD when I have good latency. Mashing buttons faster than the GCD isn't proving anything.

It's not that I'm trying to hit skills faster than the GCD, it's that consistently skills will cast on each GCD except sometimes the skill doesn't cast at all. Only way I could think of this having anything to do with GCDs is if the GCD is slightly off to the point that it adds up and results in a null GCD.

That has nothing to do with the target's speed…

Read back through the comment chain, that’s my point. It has nothing to do with anyones speed because it happens even in a solo instance with no one moving.

You ever try chasing someone with whirlwind when both players are at max movement speed? You can be practically inside their player model and not have the hit register. The difference in speed highly contributes to differences between clients and server. By the time the skill activates and checks from the cast location, the players are outside of the range. Even in pve it is possible to happen if the client thinks they are closer to a target and activate the skill, but they are not actually close enough from what the server sees.

If run speed was reduced these scenarios would be less likely, and would only happen when the defending player is sprinting. Which at that point itd be somewhat acceptable since the defending player is taking a cost action(sprint) to defend.

Again, for other's comments changing the speed cap is a poorly thought through blanket fix on a dumpster fire of a standardization issue that has been ignored for years.

You basically just argued against yourself.

If two players of equal speed are running in the same direction, the one in pursuit has to hit a skill that immediately stops them from running AND it has a cast time.

Not to mention the fact that whirling blades is notorious for lagging, often being delayed in the animation firing.

So yes by time you get the attack off they have broken away. You shouldn't have used whirling blades.

Here's a thought: run a gap closer. Or a cc.

Edit: I missed your point about sprint "costing an action to defend." What? What action? Sprinting isn't on the GCD. It's moving. Same as moving with a stick or WSAD. It's just moving a little faster. And has been said, your entire argument is "they are faster than I can attack so they should be slower." You should attack faster and with proper skills. Animation cancel whirling blades if you must use it, but you shouldn't be using it in pursuit. You are causing yourself grief and blaming the system.

xylena_lazarow · October 15

Standardize all AoE damage skills to 8m radius or wider, no need to nerf speed then.

Soarora · October 15

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

NuarBlack wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

NuarBlack wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

There’s much bigger problems than player speed for dev time to focus on. Like why don’t skills go off reliably (hitting 1 skill several times in a row, you’ll notice it skips casts), why is necro so bad at anything other than tank, why is templar, etc. I can’t think of any mechanic you can straight up skip by being too fast as most if not all mechanics that chase you actually go faster the longer they’re up and bosses can’t be kited anymore due to anti-roll mechanics.

Wait, you serious? One of the primary reasons skills don't fire is desync caused by too much speed. Speed is the primary culprit. Slowing down the game would literally improve skills firing more consistently.

And before you go blaming the servers think about what you are asking especially after you made the argument that the devs need to be efficient with their time. What is easier? Adjusting player speed or expensive server overhauls?

In what way? Stand completely still in a house with only you and hit a skill like combat prayer as many times as you can in a row onto the ground. It doesn’t matter that no one is moving, inputs get skipped. That’s what I was referring to.

Player speed isn’t the only problem, if its a problem at all.

Well you can't exceed the GCD. That isn't inputs not registering or Well it is but very much intentional. Never have inputs not register on the GCD when I have good latency. Mashing buttons faster than the GCD isn't proving anything.

It's not that I'm trying to hit skills faster than the GCD, it's that consistently skills will cast on each GCD except sometimes the skill doesn't cast at all. Only way I could think of this having anything to do with GCDs is if the GCD is slightly off to the point that it adds up and results in a null GCD.

That has nothing to do with the target's speed…

Read back through the comment chain, that’s my point. It has nothing to do with anyones speed because it happens even in a solo instance with no one moving.

You ever try chasing someone with whirlwind when both players are at max movement speed? You can be practically inside their player model and not have the hit register. The difference in speed highly contributes to differences between clients and server. By the time the skill activates and checks from the cast location, the players are outside of the range. Even in pve it is possible to happen if the client thinks they are closer to a target and activate the skill, but they are not actually close enough from what the server sees.

If run speed was reduced these scenarios would be less likely, and would only happen when the defending player is sprinting. Which at that point itd be somewhat acceptable since the defending player is taking a cost action(sprint) to defend.

Again, for other's comments changing the speed cap is a poorly thought through blanket fix on a dumpster fire of a standardization issue that has been ignored for years.

That is bad, but also not what I was referring to. My original argument is there’s other problems that need fixing, I was told reducing movement speed would fix skills not hitting, I clarified I meant spammables won’t cast on every GCD when spammed, which can be tested alone.

Gabriel_H · October 16

So you've never tanked in PvE?

Elyu · October 16

R.E. movement speed in PvP:

I think SkinnyCheecks suggestion is excellent: add a "if battle spirit is active" tag to sets that changes functionality to balance between PvE and PvP beyond merely damaging sets (old: effecting mobs vs effecting players).

Regarding snares: have snares increase in strength / duration depending on no. players effected (anti ball group) AND have cleansing a snare have a ramping cost depending on the number of players cleansed.

Regarding movement in general: MAKE IT CONSISTENT. I hate when my character, whether on foot or riding, moves over a 10cm bump in the ground and pauses for a full second to find their feet again.
Same for gap closers + teleport skills. They are so horrendously inconsitent.

DrSlaughtr · October 16

Elyu wrote: »

R.E. movement speed in PvP:

I think SkinnyCheecks suggestion is excellent: add a "if battle spirit is active" tag to sets that changes functionality to balance between PvE and PvP beyond merely damaging sets (old: effecting mobs vs effecting players).

Regarding snares: have snares increase in strength / duration depending on no. players effected (anti ball group) AND have cleansing a snare have a ramping cost depending on the number of players cleansed.

Regarding movement in general: MAKE IT CONSISTENT. I hate when my character, whether on foot or riding, moves over a 10cm bump in the ground and pauses for a full second to find their feet again.
Same for gap closers + teleport skills. They are so horrendously inconsitent.

But no reason given to do this has anything to do with speed. That's the problem here. I have heavy attacks miss on stationary targets. Where is my recourse? I have whirling blades go off 2 seconds after hitting he button. Where is my recourse?

Every person calling for this is essentially saying "I couldn't kill X because of speed." No, you couldn't kill them because you chose poorly in your execution or you were simply outplayed. So now we are wanting to add it to battle spirit, which is essentially stating that characters who choose not to be faster or use the proper tools to attack faster players, those players should be nerfed to make the game easier for me.

This is one of those situations where I see an emotional reaction rather than a logical one, and while I don't "get that", at least that explains it. If you want to mash a button that can't hit a faster player, do two things. 1. Don't mash buttons. There are GCDs. 2. Use a better skill to stop or slow them than thinking whirling blades will work in a chase.

If it was really an unselfish opinion that "player movement is too fast", then a person would advocate for all movement speed be reduced, including floor, because this, supposedly, is a server load issue. But that isn't what I am seeing suggested. What I see is "I want to sit at the floor and I don't want the ceiling to be too high for me to change my ways."

necro_the_crafter · October 16

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

Elyu wrote: »

R.E. movement speed in PvP:

I think SkinnyCheecks suggestion is excellent: add a "if battle spirit is active" tag to sets that changes functionality to balance between PvE and PvP beyond merely damaging sets (old: effecting mobs vs effecting players).

Regarding snares: have snares increase in strength / duration depending on no. players effected (anti ball group) AND have cleansing a snare have a ramping cost depending on the number of players cleansed.

Regarding movement in general: MAKE IT CONSISTENT. I hate when my character, whether on foot or riding, moves over a 10cm bump in the ground and pauses for a full second to find their feet again.
Same for gap closers + teleport skills. They are so horrendously inconsitent.

But no reason given to do this has anything to do with speed. That's the problem here. I have heavy attacks miss on stationary targets. Where is my recourse? I have whirling blades go off 2 seconds after hitting he button. Where is my recourse?

Every person calling for this is essentially saying "I couldn't kill X because of speed." No, you couldn't kill them because you chose poorly in your execution or you were simply outplayed. So now we are wanting to add it to battle spirit, which is essentially stating that characters who choose not to be faster or use the proper tools to attack faster players, those players should be nerfed to make the game easier for me.

This is one of those situations where I see an emotional reaction rather than a logical one, and while I don't "get that", at least that explains it. If you want to mash a button that can't hit a faster player, do two things. 1. Don't mash buttons. There are GCDs. 2. Use a better skill to stop or slow them than thinking whirling blades will work in a chase.

If it was really an unselfish opinion that "player movement is too fast", then a person would advocate for all movement speed be reduced, including floor, because this, supposedly, is a server load issue. But that isn't what I am seeing suggested. What I see is "I want to sit at the floor and I don't want the ceiling to be too high for me to change my ways."

If you are necromancer - you cant be outplayed by speed alone. You can run from BB explosion radius even after it jumped at you, you can outrrun gostly embrace even if it casted right under your feet, you can outrun any melee spammable necro can use, you can outrun dawnbreaker - only viable cc this class have access to. Maybe its more of an necro issue, but its indeed possibly to counter an etire class with just a Celerity+Major Expedition that every class have access to.

DrSlaughtr · October 16

necro_the_crafter wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

Elyu wrote: »

R.E. movement speed in PvP:

I think SkinnyCheecks suggestion is excellent: add a "if battle spirit is active" tag to sets that changes functionality to balance between PvE and PvP beyond merely damaging sets (old: effecting mobs vs effecting players).

Regarding snares: have snares increase in strength / duration depending on no. players effected (anti ball group) AND have cleansing a snare have a ramping cost depending on the number of players cleansed.

Regarding movement in general: MAKE IT CONSISTENT. I hate when my character, whether on foot or riding, moves over a 10cm bump in the ground and pauses for a full second to find their feet again.
Same for gap closers + teleport skills. They are so horrendously inconsitent.

But no reason given to do this has anything to do with speed. That's the problem here. I have heavy attacks miss on stationary targets. Where is my recourse? I have whirling blades go off 2 seconds after hitting he button. Where is my recourse?

Every person calling for this is essentially saying "I couldn't kill X because of speed." No, you couldn't kill them because you chose poorly in your execution or you were simply outplayed. So now we are wanting to add it to battle spirit, which is essentially stating that characters who choose not to be faster or use the proper tools to attack faster players, those players should be nerfed to make the game easier for me.

This is one of those situations where I see an emotional reaction rather than a logical one, and while I don't "get that", at least that explains it. If you want to mash a button that can't hit a faster player, do two things. 1. Don't mash buttons. There are GCDs. 2. Use a better skill to stop or slow them than thinking whirling blades will work in a chase.

If it was really an unselfish opinion that "player movement is too fast", then a person would advocate for all movement speed be reduced, including floor, because this, supposedly, is a server load issue. But that isn't what I am seeing suggested. What I see is "I want to sit at the floor and I don't want the ceiling to be too high for me to change my ways."

If you are necromancer - you cant be outplayed by speed alone. You can run from BB explosion radius even after it jumped at you, you can outrrun gostly embrace even if it casted right under your feet, you can outrun any melee spammable necro can use, you can outrun dawnbreaker - only viable cc this class have access to. Maybe its more of an necro issue, but its indeed possibly to counter an etire class with just a Celerity+Major Expedition that every class have access to.

If you drop a dawnbreaker at someone's feet, they cannot out sprint it. What they can do is move left or right to avoid the cone. That is the drawback of dawnbreaker.

What you are sayin is "it is too hard to attack in melee against mobile targets." YES. IT IS. It should be! You have access to more damage in melee than most range setups because it is easier to hit targets from range. Have you ever watched any form of melee combat? Look at boxing. Faster boxers are harder to hit, so you have to be closer.

If a target is faster than your character, don't attack them as if they aren't. Attack them with abilities that neutralize their speed. Sometimes ESO PVPers blow my mind. There is a segment of the playerbase that seems to want everyone to play essentially the same builds on homogenized classes, and just wack at each other with foam swords.

There are ways to counter speed. There are ways to counter movement. There are ways to counter tanks. There are ways to counter invisibility. Some counters are better than others, but they exist. Use those counters. Everyone should have at least one CC and one range skill slotted for several reasons, including this.

necro_the_crafter · October 16

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

If you drop a dawnbreaker at someone's feet, they cannot out sprint it. What they can do is move left or right to avoid the cone. That is the drawback of dawnbreaker.

What you are sayin is "it is too hard to attack in melee against mobile targets." YES. IT IS. It should be! You have access to more damage in melee than most range setups because it is easier to hit targets from range. Have you ever watched any form of melee combat? Look at boxing. Faster boxers are harder to hit, so you have to be closer.

If a target is faster than your character, don't attack them as if they aren't. Attack them with abilities that neutralize their speed. Sometimes ESO PVPers blow my mind. There is a segment of the playerbase that seems to want everyone to play essentially the same builds on homogenized classes, and just wack at each other with foam swords.

There are ways to counter speed. There are ways to counter movement. There are ways to counter tanks. There are ways to counter invisibility. Some counters are better than others, but they exist. Use those counters. Everyone should have at least one CC and one range skill slotted for several reasons, including this.

Oh yea, tell me what skill I can swap for "ability to neutralize enemy speed" that isnt countered by a speed itself (turn evil and mesmerize) and what "ability to neutralize enemy speed" I have to use instead?. Enlighten me.

silky_soft · October 16

necro_the_crafter wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

If you drop a dawnbreaker at someone's feet, they cannot out sprint it. What they can do is move left or right to avoid the cone. That is the drawback of dawnbreaker.

What you are sayin is "it is too hard to attack in melee against mobile targets." YES. IT IS. It should be! You have access to more damage in melee than most range setups because it is easier to hit targets from range. Have you ever watched any form of melee combat? Look at boxing. Faster boxers are harder to hit, so you have to be closer.

If a target is faster than your character, don't attack them as if they aren't. Attack them with abilities that neutralize their speed. Sometimes ESO PVPers blow my mind. There is a segment of the playerbase that seems to want everyone to play essentially the same builds on homogenized classes, and just wack at each other with foam swords.

There are ways to counter speed. There are ways to counter movement. There are ways to counter tanks. There are ways to counter invisibility. Some counters are better than others, but they exist. Use those counters. Everyone should have at least one CC and one range skill slotted for several reasons, including this.

Oh yea, tell me what skill I can swap for "ability to neutralize enemy speed" that isnt countered by a speed itself (turn evil and mesmerize) and what "ability to neutralize enemy speed" I have to use instead?. Enlighten me.

You should slot streak. It ignores speed cap, moves you out of aoe slow, moves you even if you're immobilised, does damage and is an aoe stun so they and all their mates cant move.

YandereGirlfriend · October 16

It cannot be emphasized enough how bad base movement speed feels in this game.

If the goal is to get more players to uninstall then, by all means, proceed with

necro_the_crafter wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

If you drop a dawnbreaker at someone's feet, they cannot out sprint it. What they can do is move left or right to avoid the cone. That is the drawback of dawnbreaker.

What you are sayin is "it is too hard to attack in melee against mobile targets." YES. IT IS. It should be! You have access to more damage in melee than most range setups because it is easier to hit targets from range. Have you ever watched any form of melee combat? Look at boxing. Faster boxers are harder to hit, so you have to be closer.

If a target is faster than your character, don't attack them as if they aren't. Attack them with abilities that neutralize their speed. Sometimes ESO PVPers blow my mind. There is a segment of the playerbase that seems to want everyone to play essentially the same builds on homogenized classes, and just wack at each other with foam swords.

There are ways to counter speed. There are ways to counter movement. There are ways to counter tanks. There are ways to counter invisibility. Some counters are better than others, but they exist. Use those counters. Everyone should have at least one CC and one range skill slotted for several reasons, including this.

Oh yea, tell me what skill I can swap for "ability to neutralize enemy speed" that isnt countered by a speed itself (turn evil and mesmerize) and what "ability to neutralize enemy speed" I have to use instead?. Enlighten me.

What's your front-bar? After the patch hits you'll have one guaranteed free bar slot from de-slotting Grave Grasp, heh heh. Also weird to see Siphon on there. That seems far from essential.

Recall that there are a lot of new Pulls now with Scribing. Easiest and best is Leashing Soul. Slot Avid and time your Pull to coincide with your BB, DB, and Avid and you've got a fairly decent little combo. Can't Block while you're being Pulled.

Vaqual · October 16

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

It cannot be emphasized enough how bad base movement speed feels in this game.

That sounds like an opinion to me.

System_Data · October 16

I play a bow necromancer. Activate Blighted Blastbones, use Magnum Shot, profit.

Seriously though, Necromancers are just bottom tier currently. Other classes have unblockable stuns, Necromancers get their best burst skill turned into a dot.

Ngl, i've played many games where movement is fast as f and there's no trouble with hits confirming. This is a ZOS issue.

The best thing you can do is play another game and spend less time complaining about it when ZOS ignores feedback anyways. I'm having a great time playing other games and spending my money elsewhere.

DrSlaughtr · October 17

necro_the_crafter wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

If you drop a dawnbreaker at someone's feet, they cannot out sprint it. What they can do is move left or right to avoid the cone. That is the drawback of dawnbreaker.

What you are sayin is "it is too hard to attack in melee against mobile targets." YES. IT IS. It should be! You have access to more damage in melee than most range setups because it is easier to hit targets from range. Have you ever watched any form of melee combat? Look at boxing. Faster boxers are harder to hit, so you have to be closer.

If a target is faster than your character, don't attack them as if they aren't. Attack them with abilities that neutralize their speed. Sometimes ESO PVPers blow my mind. There is a segment of the playerbase that seems to want everyone to play essentially the same builds on homogenized classes, and just wack at each other with foam swords.

There are ways to counter speed. There are ways to counter movement. There are ways to counter tanks. There are ways to counter invisibility. Some counters are better than others, but they exist. Use those counters. Everyone should have at least one CC and one range skill slotted for several reasons, including this.

Oh yea, tell me what skill I can swap for "ability to neutralize enemy speed" that isnt countered by a speed itself (turn evil and mesmerize) and what "ability to neutralize enemy speed" I have to use instead?. Enlighten me.

That's a silly question because I don't think you're open to changing.

There are multiple options for pulls that have other beneficial effects, including damage. You could also just use a range skill or, do the smart thing: don't chase.

Seriously, every time I see someone run away into a tower or to a rock I turn tf around and find another target. But I also run a pull skill because it's fun and it annoys the targets.

necro_the_crafter · October 17

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

What's your front-bar? After the patch hits you'll have one guaranteed free bar slot from de-slotting Grave Grasp, heh heh. Also weird to see Siphon on there. That seems far from essential.

Recall that there are a lot of new Pulls now with Scribing. Easiest and best is Leashing Soul. Slot Avid and time your Pull to coincide with your BB, DB, and Avid and you've got a fairly decent little combo. Can't Block while you're being Pulled.

Siphon for corpsebuster, find it more relaible than graveyard for poppin corpses. Pull is fine actually, tryed it in cyro, yet to try for IC and BG.
Frontbar DW and back bar ice destro.

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

That's a silly question because I don't think you're open to changing.

There are multiple options for pulls that have other beneficial effects, including damage. You could also just use a range skill or, do the smart thing: don't chase.

Seriously, every time I see someone run away into a tower or to a rock I turn tf around and find another target. But I also run a pull skill because it's fun and it annoys the targets.

Thats the point, chase is not an option for necro. And Im not talking about situation when people LoS you, Im mean even on a plain field you can simply run from necro and get a free fight reset. Scribing skills are fine, but they are not as reliable as some other classes have like DKs fossilize, NB fear, Plar spear, Arc rune, sorcs streak.

silky_soft wrote: »

You should slot streak. It ignores speed cap, moves you out of aoe slow, moves you even if you're immobilised, does damage and is an aoe stun so they and all their mates cant move.

Yeah cant wait for multiclass DLC. Definitely them gonna slot streak on every of my chars xD

DrSlaughtr · October 18

necro_the_crafter wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

What's your front-bar? After the patch hits you'll have one guaranteed free bar slot from de-slotting Grave Grasp, heh heh. Also weird to see Siphon on there. That seems far from essential.

Recall that there are a lot of new Pulls now with Scribing. Easiest and best is Leashing Soul. Slot Avid and time your Pull to coincide with your BB, DB, and Avid and you've got a fairly decent little combo. Can't Block while you're being Pulled.

Siphon for corpsebuster, find it more relaible than graveyard for poppin corpses. Pull is fine actually, tryed it in cyro, yet to try for IC and BG.
Frontbar DW and back bar ice destro.

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

That's a silly question because I don't think you're open to changing.

There are multiple options for pulls that have other beneficial effects, including damage. You could also just use a range skill or, do the smart thing: don't chase.

Seriously, every time I see someone run away into a tower or to a rock I turn tf around and find another target. But I also run a pull skill because it's fun and it annoys the targets.

Thats the point, chase is not an option for necro. And Im not talking about situation when people LoS you, Im mean even on a plain field you can simply run from necro and get a free fight reset. Scribing skills are fine, but they are not as reliable as some other classes have like DKs fossilize, NB fear, Plar spear, Arc rune, sorcs streak.

silky_soft wrote: »

You should slot streak. It ignores speed cap, moves you out of aoe slow, moves you even if you're immobilised, does damage and is an aoe stun so they and all their mates cant move.

Yeah cant wait for multiclass DLC. Definitely them gonna slot streak on every of my chars xD

Silver leash alone can ruin someone's day.

Here's some free advice.

I've played so many PVP games over the years. All of them have one thing in common: You build to fight the targets you want to kill. You want abilities to counter their strengths and exploit their weaknesses. If you want to attack faster targets, you have to make sacrifices to do so, the same way people have to make hard choices if they want to fight shielded targets, cloaked targets, high armored targets, range DDs, etc, etc, etc.

This is the way PVP works. You can't expect the developers to come in and make the game easier for you so that you don't have to do this. Do you really want to play a game where none of these things matter? That there is no specs or uniqueness? Do you want everyone to basically stand around just mashing buttons until someone eventually dies?

Maybe necros are less equipped naturally to fight faster targets. I don't know if that is true or not, as I have not used one in PVP in a couple years. I don't remember that being the case but things change. They absolutely CAN run out-of-class pulls and CCs. They can ALSO be built for speed. Nothing is stopping you from running swift jewelry or slotting speed CP.

But there is something to be said about this: It's okay if you can't kill everyone. It's okay if you just can't kill runners. Not everyone plays that way. In my experience, most players want to just stand and fight. So you could do what a lot of people do. Focus on them and stop worrying about chases IF you do not want to spec into being able to counter their speed.

YandereGirlfriend · October 18

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

necro_the_crafter wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

What's your front-bar? After the patch hits you'll have one guaranteed free bar slot from de-slotting Grave Grasp, heh heh. Also weird to see Siphon on there. That seems far from essential.

Recall that there are a lot of new Pulls now with Scribing. Easiest and best is Leashing Soul. Slot Avid and time your Pull to coincide with your BB, DB, and Avid and you've got a fairly decent little combo. Can't Block while you're being Pulled.

Siphon for corpsebuster, find it more relaible than graveyard for poppin corpses. Pull is fine actually, tryed it in cyro, yet to try for IC and BG.
Frontbar DW and back bar ice destro.

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

That's a silly question because I don't think you're open to changing.

There are multiple options for pulls that have other beneficial effects, including damage. You could also just use a range skill or, do the smart thing: don't chase.

Seriously, every time I see someone run away into a tower or to a rock I turn tf around and find another target. But I also run a pull skill because it's fun and it annoys the targets.

Thats the point, chase is not an option for necro. And Im not talking about situation when people LoS you, Im mean even on a plain field you can simply run from necro and get a free fight reset. Scribing skills are fine, but they are not as reliable as some other classes have like DKs fossilize, NB fear, Plar spear, Arc rune, sorcs streak.

silky_soft wrote: »

You should slot streak. It ignores speed cap, moves you out of aoe slow, moves you even if you're immobilised, does damage and is an aoe stun so they and all their mates cant move.

Yeah cant wait for multiclass DLC. Definitely them gonna slot streak on every of my chars xD

Silver leash alone can ruin someone's day.

Here's some free advice.

I've played so many PVP games over the years. All of them have one thing in common: You build to fight the targets you want to kill. You want abilities to counter their strengths and exploit their weaknesses. If you want to attack faster targets, you have to make sacrifices to do so, the same way people have to make hard choices if they want to fight shielded targets, cloaked targets, high armored targets, range DDs, etc, etc, etc.

This is the way PVP works. You can't expect the developers to come in and make the game easier for you so that you don't have to do this. Do you really want to play a game where none of these things matter? That there is no specs or uniqueness? Do you want everyone to basically stand around just mashing buttons until someone eventually dies?

Maybe necros are less equipped naturally to fight faster targets. I don't know if that is true or not, as I have not used one in PVP in a couple years. I don't remember that being the case but things change. They absolutely CAN run out-of-class pulls and CCs. They can ALSO be built for speed. Nothing is stopping you from running swift jewelry or slotting speed CP.

But there is something to be said about this: It's okay if you can't kill everyone. It's okay if you just can't kill runners. Not everyone plays that way. In my experience, most players want to just stand and fight. So you could do what a lot of people do. Focus on them and stop worrying about chases IF you do not want to spec into being able to counter their speed.

Very well-said and I 100% agree.

I think that some just pine for the old days of the DSwing meta and the BG mosh pit where it was just 12 slow brawlers DSwinging each other each and every match while very slowly column LOSing. Some of those matches were admittedly fun but that meta got stale real quick. And it's a positive development that we have more varied playstyles these days.

And then also big agreement that many are like, "My build is my build and I don't want to adapt it or change." Like people seem to be absolutely locked-in to running triple-Infused jewels and tank red CP and want the game to change to accommodate their decision to use speed essentially as a dump stat.

But your "build for the targets that you want to kill" point is the best of them all. And accepting that there is no One Build To Rule Them All that will let you do everything all at once at maximum efficiency. Which is good. Because such an obvious and rigid meta would be absolutely suffocating.

So you build a brawler that can fight other brawlers and X against the zone players, that's good. That can handle many/most fights that you'll find as a small-scaler in Cyro. But then just accept that it isn't worth your time to mess with the troll tanks or the speedsters or the perma-Cloakers, etc. Just brawl with the brawlers and X the zone players. Life is good.

necro_the_crafter · October 18

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

Silver leash alone can ruin someone's day.

Here's some free advice.

I've played so many PVP games over the years. All of them have one thing in common: You build to fight the targets you want to kill. You want abilities to counter their strengths and exploit their weaknesses. If you want to attack faster targets, you have to make sacrifices to do so, the same way people have to make hard choices if they want to fight shielded targets, cloaked targets, high armored targets, range DDs, etc, etc, etc.

This is the way PVP works. You can't expect the developers to come in and make the game easier for you so that you don't have to do this. Do you really want to play a game where none of these things matter? That there is no specs or uniqueness? Do you want everyone to basically stand around just mashing buttons until someone eventually dies?

Maybe necros are less equipped naturally to fight faster targets. I don't know if that is true or not, as I have not used one in PVP in a couple years. I don't remember that being the case but things change. They absolutely CAN run out-of-class pulls and CCs. They can ALSO be built for speed. Nothing is stopping you from running swift jewelry or slotting speed CP.

But there is something to be said about this: It's okay if you can't kill everyone. It's okay if you just can't kill runners. Not everyone plays that way. In my experience, most players want to just stand and fight. So you could do what a lot of people do. Focus on them and stop worrying about chases IF you do not want to spec into being able to counter their speed.

No I dont want everybody to stand still and just do thier rotation on each other.

I think there is some misunderstanding happening so I want to state my points:

1. Necro needs reliable cc, because:
2. There is too much passive speed that dont imply any trade off.

Swift - 7% speed on 1 piece. Three swift jewelry = 21%. Minor expedition - 15%, ms swift is 1.4 times better.
Protective - 1190 armor. Three protective = 3570. Minor resolve - 2974, Protective is 1.2 times better.
Infused (weapon damage) - 105 damage. Three infused = 315 damage. Minor courage - 215, Infused is 1.46(1.5 if you add 15 recovery) times better .

So yeah you dont lose any stat density by running swift. Its quite good stat dense trait if compared to the spreadsheet buffs.

Celerity is a problem as well as it is PASSIVE. What I would like to see is to make PASSIVE movement speed made more active instead. Celerity could be a sprint 10% bonus, or trigger as a buff for 4 secs after roll dodge for example.

Also my struggle as necro is not against people who LoS, who runs inside towers or hugs every rock he sees.

Just plain movement on the flat field is enough to step away from any burst that you can have as a necro. Especially with all the movement speed lying around free to pick up. My own speed wont change 0.4 sec cast time on dawnbreaker, nor it would increase AI quality of my blastbones. Pull is a option, but you will run in the siruations where you pull a guy while your blastbones already in the air flying to targets last coordinates, and you simply pulling them out of bb exploison radius, effectivly denying yourself any burst. It happent everytime target manage to block or dodge your first pull, and when you connect the second you end up pulling them away from blastbones radius. Rooting ulfsilds is nice since it can be precasted, but its still have same issue as turn evil, where it wont connect to amoving target because of server-client position update. And thats an issue that is not primarily caused by the speed itself, but speed actually makes it much worse.

If you go and check out noCP or BG, where people wont have access to celerity, and where swift becomes much more of a rarer choise because you want more damage/recovey stats since you dont have cp percentages, booth AoEs and melee attacks connect much smoother then it is in cp PvP.

So, what i would like to see, is swift nerfed to 6% a piece on gold to bring its density closer to protective, and celerity made into more of an active buff, either buffing sprint movement speed, or aplly uniqe buff while under effect of cc immunity or after a roll dodge.

NuarBlack · October 22

The "just slot a gap closer" crowd probably has never slotted a gap closer cause you can literally run a gap closer and it doesn't even really connect. Sure it triggers the effect and damage of the gap closer but by time the animation ends you won't land a follow up skill cause the speed in the game literally out does the animations. The game looks atrocious cause of it.

The irony is that its probably the same people who cried about sorc streak and were told to slot a gap closer but cried till where now you can run down a streaking sorc with ease now, no gap closer necessary because passive speed is way superior to anything with a gcd and animation.

And I'm sorry but wow classic combat is way slower and feels way better than the completely disjointed mess that is current eso combat. Best combat period is fromsoft game combat and it is incredibly slow compared to eso. ESO combat problem has always been its lack of weight and speed creep has only exacerbated that.

MincMincMinc · October 22

I think most players lack the old game experience when the average movement speed was 90%-130% at most during combat. Somehow people are fine with the average player sitting at 160%-190% movement speed. IDK something seems to have creeped/grown out of touch. The OP proposals are to bring to moderate amount between these values above... not even as drastic a change as we could probably use.

Streak has never really been an issue as most gap closers out range, sustain, damage it. People just cry now because they dropped gap closers because they can literally outwalk them. Again pointing towards the fact that since movement speed is so inflated, you can ignore game mechanics like sprint or gap closers.

My second proposal on the issue is about the CONSISTENCY of speed or the change in speed. Roots bring your speed to 0. So in the old game your delta would be 0-130% where now adays you can be at 0-190%. This dynamic creates a stop and go traffic feeling in combat which feels terrible.

I believe many players try to compensate for this stop and go traffic feeling by simply just slotting more speed. Perhaps if snare/root counters were designed better, players would not need to compensate with as much speed.

Turtle_Bot · October 23

NuarBlack wrote: »

The irony is that its probably the same people who cried about sorc streak and were told to slot a gap closer but cried till where now you can run down a streaking sorc with ease now, no gap closer necessary because passive speed is way superior to anything with a gcd and animation.

Louder for those at the back please! 🙌🙌🙌

xylena_lazarow · October 23

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Somehow people are fine with the average player sitting at 160%-190% movement speed

I do enjoy the fast pace, but it breaks too many mechanics, 00s era MMO position tracking simply can't handle every player being Sonic. Watch two NBs go at it, it's like they can't hit each other in the face, but they'll land Concealed from across the screen. It's also weird from a build standpoint where you're obligated to stack speed just to land hits and evade target focus, yet you end up not feeling fast when everyone stacks speed and pushes up against the same cap.

It's a big systemic issue us players won't solve, but I'd still love to see AoE radii widened and standardized.

Turtle_Bot · October 24

Not that it can't be solved, but that majority of players don't want to see it ever be solved.

Too many players are addicted to that amount of speed being the baseline and don't care about any of the following issues that much free/baseline speed is contributing to/causing:
- the game being unplayable due to things like positional desyncs.
- prevents other bugs/issues from being fixed.
- requires huge unbalanced changes be made to classes that used to depend on speed to survive.
- completely unbalances some items that were not designed for that high of baseline speed.
- prevents counters to specific playstyles from being able to function because they no longer hit.

Plenty more issues, but there are the most common complaints seen about PvP in ESO and it's frustrating because these issues would be so much less problematic (if not completely fixed) if the player base in general would actually accept that being able to zoom around at/near speed cap required actually building for it instead of just being given it for free (or almost free).

Turtle_Bot · October 24

If anything, ZOS should look into testing the following:
- Lower the running (non-sprint) speed cap to 150% speed.
- Leave sprint speed cap at the current 200% speed.
- Mounted speed cap is increased to 250% speed.

Being mounted comes with the most drawbacks (can't use abilities, takes time to mount while being vulnerable and easy to disrupt and also the huge risk of unbreakable hard CC if dismounted), so it should have a massive speed advantage over just running that literally has zero drawbacks. Sprinting is the middle ground where you can't use abilities, but no other downsides such as time to mount or risk of unbreakable hard CC, so it makes sense for its cap to be in the middle.

- Snowtreaders now has a downside that cannot be ignored/worked around.
- RaT speed boost is now much less powerful because you don't get to match sprint speed just for casting it.
- Snares are much more effective since the non-sprint speed cap is lower.
- PvE mechanics that require speed now actually require sprinting instead of just jogging to avoid them while still parsing at full (or near full) DPS (mechanics can actually be engaging instead of just being another DPS check).
- No need for abilities like hardened ward to exist because sorc would actually have a real speed advantage from streak/BoL again that simply running cannot just nullify.
- Gap closers become actually useful options to slot again to get that burst of speed to counter speed builds and gap creators like streak/mist form/vault/etc.
- Mounting in combat can also be tested/brought back since doing it in active combat is a huge risk, but it gives a work around for the stuck in combat bug (like how ZOS enabled using transitus shrines while in combat to get around stuck in combat preventing moving around the map at all).
- Celerity becomes a much less mandatory CP allowing for other CP to be viable options.