Movement and Speed Must be addressed

MincMincMinc

Moving this here to stem off the other thread discussion.

The summup is that movement in eso has been butchered and left in shambles since summerset murkmire era. See the history in the spoiler below. Not only is there an issue with the vast DIFFERENCE in speed, but the CONSISTENCY

1. Summerset releases RATs and and 10% swift trait(at the cost of losing 3x robust/mag).....Surprise, everyone is 30% faster for some reason. This much speed undermines gap closers, making them useless since you can travel faster than they cast without the clunkiness.
2. Many issues arise with skill interactions. Dizzy missing, leaps disappearing, etc Everyone gets upsetti
3. Murkmire dlc comes around to "solve" it
4. Add snares to everything
5. Warden aoe frost meta must snare and root every second
6. Major expedition pots must be the issue, reduce its time instead of addressing the tooltip??????
7. Forward momentum snare immunity must be the issue, cut it in half?????
8. Swift was finally reigned in to be 7% after a following change..... If you add something into the equation and suddenly there is an issue, it is likely what you added causing the heartache. I know that mindset doesn't sell dlc though.

The below summed up suggestions aim to make movement in eso more consistent and functionally fun to play with.

First the difference between the fastest you can go and slowest you can go must be reigned in. Note this does not include reducing the cap as that would not help the situation. If a player only wants to build speed and be useless let them.

• Major expedition should be 15%, I dont know why this wasnt touched in the major/minor buff changes.
• Minor expedition should be 8%
• Celerity10%(actually 11% due to maths) should be 5%
• Swift should be 5%..... audit other stand alone buffs to match
• Snare tooltips should be audited to match 2x the counterpart. Hefty snares should be 30% while lesser snares should be 15%
• Hurricane has been power crept so hard, the "speedy" stamsorc isnt even an identity anymore. Come up with something better like a 15% movement speed increase that decreases per tick. Making a trade off between the speed or going on the offensive. Give a reason to make our brains work.

Next is making movement consistent

• Proper use of snare and root immunity should be rewarded. These skills should give 4s of immunity, but doubles if you actually remove a snare or root.
• Skills that combine Immunity and major expedition are too potent. This creates a 0 to 100mph moment. Id rather remove the expedition entirely. Or atleast reduce to minor. Maybe instead of doubling the immunity if a snare gets removed, grant the minor expedition.
• Expedition potions should be changed to minor and be the full duration again.
• "Invisible" animation roots like escapist poisons must be addressed and made more clear

If I missed any I can edit my post to add to the list to keep it in one place.

tsaescishoeshiner

I remember snares were removed from a lot of skills since Murkmire, so much that it's shifted which skills were used. I don't often feel snared in zergs, just against ball groups.

I love max movement speed builds, so I would be disappointed if the speed sources that you mentioned were nerfed so that 200% speed was impossible. But I do see an issue with builds that are able to be fast, tanky, have good recovery, and usually deal good damage, too (though sometimes not enough 1v1 skilled players).

I like the change to making snare immunity have a bonus if you don't purge a snare, makes it less worthwhile to keep up constantly.

Maybe there could be melee-range skills that reduce some "bonus speed" but don't snare people below 100% base speed. That way they would risk getting caught if they're not careful.

MincMincMinc

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

I remember snares were removed from a lot of skills since Murkmire, so much that it's shifted which skills were used. I don't often feel snared in zergs, just against ball groups.

I love max movement speed builds, so I would be disappointed if the speed sources that you mentioned were nerfed so that 200% speed was impossible. But I do see an issue with builds that are able to be fast, tanky, have good recovery, and usually deal good damage, too (though sometimes not enough 1v1 skilled players).

I like the change to making snare immunity have a bonus if you purge a snare, makes it less worthwhile to keep up constantly.

Maybe there could be melee-range skills that reduce some "bonus speed" but don't snare people below 100% base speed. That way they would risk getting caught if they're not careful.

Which snares? The only ones that were changed was the warden frost root and snare meta that happened after murkmire. Otherwise most of everything stayed the same. I also love speed builds, been a speed based bosmer stamsorc for 8 years now. However a problem is a problem.

Ideally the speed cap is not changed, however the soft limit of what a normal build can achieve for a WALKING speed is reigned in. There are still options for buffing sprint speed by larger quantities. Walking movement speed is worth alot more since you can flawlessly cast skills, unlike while sprinting.

Vaqual

MincMincMinc wrote: »

(...)Skills that combine Immunity and major expedition are too potent. This creates a 0 to 100mph moment.(...)

I fully agree with this point. RAT (+Falcon's Swiftness) is too optimal in what it does. I think your ideas are pretty good.

My biggest issue with movement speed is another tho....of a more RP related nature....
I hate that the character is leaning forward like he is sprinting even for small speed increases. The animation shouldn't change until you hit the base sprint speed (+- armor penalties). Same goes for the jogging/walking animation threshold.

Edit: In case someone decides to misunderstand this: I dont want these abilities to be useless, but as OP wrote, the combo of snare removal und major expedition is just ruining the competition. The skills should be changed, not nerfed.

valenwood_vegan

Sounds like a pvp thing. Nerf speed there please. "Speed buffs are reduced by 25% (or whatever is appropriate) when battle spirit is active", for example. Or cap speed via battle spirit.

I think those of us playing the rest of the game wouldn't be thrilled with suddenly having to play in slow motion.

Genfe

I don’t want to walk around in syrup.

MincMincMinc

Vaqual wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

(...)Skills that combine Immunity and major expedition are too potent. This creates a 0 to 100mph moment.(...)

I fully agree with this point. RAT (+Falcon's Swiftness) is too optimal in what it does. I think your ideas are pretty good.

My biggest issue with movement speed is another tho....of a more RP related nature....
I hate that the character is leaning forward like he is sprinting even for small speed increases. The animation shouldn't change until you hit the base sprint speed (+- armor penalties). Same goes for the jogging/walking animation threshold.

Edit: In case someone decides to misunderstand this: I dont want these abilities to be useless, but as OP wrote, the combo of snare removal und major expedition is just ruining the competition. The skills should be changed, not nerfed.

Animations in eso are another whole area that could have a major pass done. Too many skills with animations overdone.... too many deadly ultimates or important counterplay animations that are small and hidden.

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

Sounds like a pvp thing. Nerf speed there please. "Speed buffs are reduced by 25% (or whatever is appropriate) when battle spirit is active", for example. Or cap speed via battle spirit.

I think those of us playing the rest of the game wouldn't be thrilled with suddenly having to play in slow motion.

Even with the suggested changes, the majority of pve is left unchanged.... not like you go into dungeons/raid slotting celerity, swift, expedition pots. Sprint speeds would be practically unaffected for farming if that's your thing. I dont think the entirety of combat should be balanced around new players farming resource nodes or mob pulls not wanting to sprint or gap close.

valenwood_vegan

MincMincMinc wrote: »

I dont think the entirety of combat should be balanced around new players farming resource nodes or mob pulls not wanting to sprint or gap close.

Nor should it be balanced around the desired pvp nerfs of the day.

Edit: Just wanted to add... really not trying to be rude / hostile toward pvp here. I will continue to push for them doing more to balance the modes separately when constant nerfs are requested, because it would actually be beneficial for both sides of the issue... pvp could get more frequent and targeted adjustments without them having to compromise and consider the impacts on the pve side of the game every time... and angering pve'ers by making changes to fix problems they don't have or understand.

And, pvp'ers could discuss proposed changes without worrying about us pve'ers jumping in and derailing the topic.

YandereGirlfriend

Hard disagree, friend. No need to fix what isn't actually a problem. Gap-closers and Stuns exist, and, particularly for Stuns, that's where you're going to get your kills against any reasonably skilled player.

Particularly if you fight outnumbered, the number of incoming Snares being applied to you is outlandish. Under the old 2-second RAT immunity this necessitated devoting an obscene number of your total GCDs simply to cleansing Snares. Increasing the immunity period to 4 seconds on most skills has been a very welcome change.

And let's not like valorize Snares like they take some supreme skill to use. Most are simply free toss-ins on skills that you'd already be using. So bogging-down the movement of everyone for the sake of buffing Snares is not a goal worth pursuing.

MincMincMinc

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

I dont think the entirety of combat should be balanced around new players farming resource nodes or mob pulls not wanting to sprint or gap close.

Nor should it be balanced around the desired pvp nerfs of the day.

Nor should it be allowed to power creep without being checked. Can you provide any scenario in pve where this drastically uproots combat? Or are your complaints out of combat? Substantiate a claim at least.

I see your edit, I understand but zos many of times stated that they do not want there to be a big difference between combat in PVE and PVP. If many differences are introduced players may preference the other or be confused entirely.... not that zos did a great job showing pve'ers how to learn pvp... or vice versa.

MincMincMinc

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Hard disagree, friend. No need to fix what isn't actually a problem. Gap-closers and Stuns exist, and, particularly for Stuns, that's where you're going to get your kills against any reasonably skilled player.

Particularly if you fight outnumbered, the number of incoming Snares being applied to you is outlandish. Under the old 2-second RAT immunity this necessitated devoting an obscene number of your total GCDs simply to cleansing Snares. Increasing the immunity period to 4 seconds on most skills has been a very welcome change.

And let's not like valorize Snares like they take some supreme skill to use. Most are simply free toss-ins on skills that you'd already be using. So bogging-down the movement of everyone for the sake of buffing Snares is not a goal worth pursuing.

Wait who are you disagreeing with? If it is with my OP I think you are actually agreeing with me.

• Too many snares on everything.
• Snares are not standardized very clearly
• counterplay immunity is too short
• Maybe we disagree where I think the movement speed buffs are too high and too numerous (coming from a bosmer stamsorc speed based player of 9 years.) The readjustment lower only works if the above is also readjusted with snares being in check and counterplay rewarded.

PeacefulAnarchy

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Even with the suggested changes, the majority of pve is left unchanged.... not like you go into dungeons/raid slotting celerity, swift, expedition pots. Sprint speeds would be practically unaffected for farming if that's your thing. I dont think the entirety of combat should be balanced around new players farming resource nodes or mob pulls not wanting to sprint or gap close.

There are a number of pve fights in both dungeons and trials where people use celerity and expedition sources to properly kite mechanics and to move in a coordinated fashion, It's true that going to the level of using swift jewelry or wild hunt is rare, but not unheard of. most prominent examples are cloudrest and asylum trials, but all kite and boss teleport mechanics are aided by speed boosts. thay aren't necessary, but they are a useful build option and the tradeoff in pve is currently pretty balanced.

MincMincMinc

PeacefulAnarchy wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Even with the suggested changes, the majority of pve is left unchanged.... not like you go into dungeons/raid slotting celerity, swift, expedition pots. Sprint speeds would be practically unaffected for farming if that's your thing. I dont think the entirety of combat should be balanced around new players farming resource nodes or mob pulls not wanting to sprint or gap close.

There are a number of pve fights in both dungeons and trials where people use celerity and expedition sources to properly kite mechanics and to move in a coordinated fashion, It's true that going to the level of using swift jewelry or wild hunt is rare, but not unheard of. most prominent examples are cloudrest and asylum trials, but all kite and boss teleport mechanics are aided by speed boosts. thay aren't necessary, but they are a useful build option and the tradeoff in pve is currently pretty balanced.

I understand, but there are a variety of other work arounds available. I'd think in raid instances if speed was that necessary due to the lack of player skill/awareness you would want a healer or offtank slotting sources like rapids or path instead of everyone dropping damage. Even so cutting walking speed bonuses by half would have minimal effect on those maybe scenarios. Compensation can easily be added with sprint speed through cp, as that would be the mechanic counter.

PeacefulAnarchy

rapids is expedition, so is path. your proposal is to cut all speed boost sources in half, not just swift. also sprint speed is only helpful when running between fights, in a fight you want to generally avoid sprinting since you can't cast.

And yes, there are workarounds, no pve fight requires extra speed, but it's a balanced tool that gives groups choices.

I only casually pvp so I don't really get what problem you're even trying to solve? people run away too fast? why can't you run after them? snares and roots are a thing and so are gap closers, you have the same tools at your disposal as your enemy.

MincMincMinc

PeacefulAnarchy wrote: »

rapids is expedition, so is path. your proposal is to cut all speed boost sources in half, not just swift. also sprint speed is only helpful when running between fights, in a fight you want to generally avoid sprinting since you can't cast.

And yes, there are workarounds, no pve fight requires extra speed, but it's a balanced tool that gives groups choices.

I only casually pvp so I don't really get what problem you're even trying to solve? people run away too fast? why can't you run after them? snares and roots are a thing and so are gap closers, you have the same tools at your disposal as your enemy.

Right so the expedition sources available would still be fine. IDK back when my group did asylum and cloudrest nobody was running speed. Has something changed in those trials? You can sprint between between skill casts without much loss if done right btw.

You ever play redlight greenlight as a kid? Where you are at a standstill then full speed and then standstill again. That is how pvp combat is every 4s since murkmire. Snares and roots being too easily spammed in aoe. Counterplay options being too short. With so many sources of regular movement speed added to the game as one player breaks free from snares they go 100mph compared to the other player. At this level of speed you can out run someone streak spamming or gap closers....which is why nobody runs them anymore and just slots RATs. At this speed it is possible to outrun damage calculations and prevent them from happening... which is why dragonleap misses half the time(so much so that dragon leap still roots the target through ALL immunity to ensure it hits, which can still miss if you know how to avoid it lol)

If PVE is so reliant on the speed buffs, sure hold off if you think power creep hasnt happened here. Snares and immunity are fairly specific to pvp though and is such a mess.

necro_the_crafter

easy way to implement it without interfearing with pve stuff would be to add unique effects to a category of skills.

All gap-closers purges enemy of any speed buffs, and aplies short minor snare (like 10% for 2 secs)
All stuns that go through shields reduce enemy block mitigation by (40?)% for short duration (2-4 secs)
All direct damage executes aplly stacking healing debuff (up to 30%) if hit in execute range, or debuff can scale with execute damage dealt.
Breaking invis (pots/vamp/cloack) with aoe damage makes target revealed for 2-4 secs

Small offtop considering pulls while we at it:

All pulls should either apply cc immunity, or dont apply it. Why RoA is a rulebreaker? I would understand if at least all melee pulls that stacks people on top of you doesnt apply cc imunity, but void call does apply it. Some stardatisation is needed here, pulls should be split into groups and made a clear ruleset for each one of them. Like ranged that stack onto AoE area center does apply 4 secs cc immunity, single target pulls do apply 2 secs cc immunity, meele that stack on caster - dont apply.

I belive such new core mechanics should be baseline on every above spell, so we have a counter for stuff that's been powercreeping all that time.

YandereGirlfriend

This entire premise is flawed because no problem exists that needs to be solved.

MincMincMinc

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

This entire premise is flawed because no problem exists that needs to be solved.

I thought in your first post you were all for the snare immunity increase and snares are too prevelant and easily spammed. The work the snare spammer does does not equal the amount of brain power the defender has to use to play the game.

You don't think there has been any speed creep? Gap closers are worth it to slot? Melee skills dont have issues connecting?

Idk quick firing off the noggin I think there may be power creep here, i can update if you think of others. My proposal still has power creep to a degree.

• Old Stamsorc had 10%(minor)+30%(pots) === 40%
• New stamsorc has 15%(minor)+30%(rats)+10/11%(celerity)+5%(bosmer)+7%*0:3(swift)+2%*1:5(medium armor) === 62%-92%
• My OP Proposed 8%(minor)+15%(maj)+5%(celerity)+5%(bosmer)+5%*0:3(swift)+2%*1:5(medium armor) === 35%-58%

Urzigurumash

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

This entire premise is flawed because no problem exists that needs to be solved.

The non viability of tons of Melee Specs that were viable for years? Melee MagBlade was so bad it was irrelevant for years and now it dominates Melee, everybody else is plinking away with Force Shock.

The only thing I can say is that DK and Templar and their descendants Den and Cro do of course deserve their suffering, born into the Irrevocable Perdition of being a Tank in PvP.

Urzigurumash

Warden got bailed out with the snare removal on Falcons Swiftness. The other 3 Tank Classes need something like this if the Speed Capped Kite Meta doesnt change. Berserk on Chains is nice but it's still too clunky for PvP in many cases.

(I main a Bosmer these days too so it's also not personally motivated, a problem is a problem)

gariondavey

Nice write up
This would ironically hurt ballgroups too because then people with triple swift + major and minor expedition who don't wear snow treaders could move faster than ballgroups via sprinting

Twohothardware

It's definitely time to rebalance movement and sprint speed. Like you said, it's too easy to have really high movement with little investment and the server doesn't have a fast enough tick rate to handle it and consoles don't have fast enough frame rate. I think lag would be reduced in Cyrodiil if everyone was just knocked down a peg on their speed.

Also, as someone that just leveled up a new character on a different server they need to have one standardized movement speed and get rid of Steed's Blessing in the green CP tree. New players move too slow compared to everyone else in the game that have access to CP and it's basically mandatory to slot.

Bashev

I agree, speed is problematic. One of the best defence in the game especially if there is some obstacle.

The point is that this is not visible in the logs and people dont complain. Most of them probably think that the server lags, which happens often but even without any lag the speed builds are extremely annoying to play against.

MincMincMinc

Again this is coming from someone who has played dizzyswing movement based stamsorc through every meta.

Sad that zos changed dizzy swing because "players have a hard time using it" when it was actually due to the garbage inconsistent state of movement after the murkmire era. A whole playstyle was deleted because of it. Most players now probably dont even remember how smooth combat was back then.

MincMincMinc

gariondavey wrote: »

Nice write up
This would ironically hurt ballgroups too because then people with triple swift + major and minor expedition who don't wear snow treaders could move faster than ballgroups via sprinting

Yeah, although that wasnt the intention in the slightest.

It brings a good point where regular movement speed shouldnt be outshined by sprint speed.

gariondavey

MincMincMinc wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

Nice write up
This would ironically hurt ballgroups too because then people with triple swift + major and minor expedition who don't wear snow treaders could move faster than ballgroups via sprinting

Yeah, although that wasnt the intention in the slightest.

It brings a good point where regular movement speed shouldnt be outshined by sprint speed.

My issue is you can reach near movespeed cap with major minor triple swift and celerity while wearing snow treaders.
There is no real downside in that situation. The movespeed cap should be reachable only via all movement speed increases + sprint, unlike how it currently is with no need to sprint.

MincMincMinc

gariondavey wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

Nice write up
This would ironically hurt ballgroups too because then people with triple swift + major and minor expedition who don't wear snow treaders could move faster than ballgroups via sprinting

Yeah, although that wasnt the intention in the slightest.

It brings a good point where regular movement speed shouldnt be outshined by sprint speed.

My issue is you can reach near movespeed cap with major minor triple swift and celerity while wearing snow treaders.
There is no real downside in that situation. The movespeed cap should be reachable only via all movement speed increases + sprint, unlike how it currently is with no need to sprint.

I was dumbfounded when they didnt include the expeditions on the major minor rework.

Power creep can be fine in most cases. Oh health pools went up, well now damage is being raised. Oh now damage is too high, gotta raise health.

Speed doesnt work that way. Its not like the maps are getting bigger. Or skills are farther ranged. Or aoes are getting larger. Gap closers and movement skills being near obsolete should be the tell tale sign. Even streak is up for debate movement wise. With rats I can outrun streak and jump over most gaps.

duagloth

It's been going on alot longer. Wrothgar was when I first noticed it

SkaiFaith

Wait, what?
I would have never thought to see arguing in favor of "less speed". In fact I would expect the opposite, take the floor much higher.

I mostly play solo, so Heavy builds, and I feel a slug, especially compared to when I swap to my running gatherer.
Also, new player speed in Heavy means you barely move, and don't make me start with mount speed.

I would fight for more speed for sure, but less... Ain't no way.
(I don't really have an opinion about snares aside from the fact I hate to be snared from NPCs like wolves)

Edit: the one thing I would like to see is more personalities not being canceled by the running animation.

Wuuffyy

Must be addressed? Because of what you said? Hahahahahahahaha!

But in all seriousness, no-one wants a slower game b/c some people that want to mow over people with their group uncontested want players slowed down.

Vaqual

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Must be addressed? Because of what you said? Hahahahahahahaha!

But in all seriousness, no-one wants a slower game b/c some people that want to mow over people with their group uncontested want players slowed down.

Being fast or slow is always relative. A slower average speed is basically like a direct multiplier to gap-closer and pull efficiency. It also affects the melee/ranged power relationship, which currently feels a bit lopsided due to the melee multipliers not quite balancing the range advantages.

I think alleging nefarious intentions is not quite fair after he made such an effort to explain his reasoning nicely.