Why adjust arctic blast but not polar wind?

React

Polar wind is arguably the strongest burst heal that exists in PVP currently. It hits two players every cast, applies a strong 10 second HOT to both of them, and scales on HP - meaning that players can build extremely tanky to the point that they can't be touched while simultaneously providing some of the best PVP healing possible.

If this skill is required for PVE tanks to heal themselves, make it a self heal only. There is no reason a 50k hp player should be hitting 20k burst heals on allies, while also applying a 3-4k per tick HOT to them in a PVP setting.

Panderbander

Hot take: allow it to continue to heal two people but only burst heal if there's no active Polar Wind HOT on the target. Recast only refreshes existing duration or something (idk give minor resolve if there's no burst heal?)

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Panderbander wrote: »

Hot take: allow it to continue to heal two people but only burst heal if there's no active Polar Wind HOT on the target. Recast only refreshes existing duration or something (idk give minor resolve if there's no burst heal?)

While less burst heals would certainly help, the HOT itself being one of, if not the strongest non-ultimate HOT in PVP is problematic as well.

Warden already has two other burst heals in it's kit - soothing spores and budding seeds. I don't really understand why this skill needs to heal other players if the goal is for it to enable self healing on PVE tanks. HP scaling heals simply should not be this potent, or if they are, they shouldn't be cross heals.

Soarora

Polar wind healing other players also traps newer warden healers into thinking they should/can run the skill, when they should not. There's no good reason for it to heal other players.

Durham

Lets nerf Polar to! I agree! They just destroyed the ICE warden in PVP ... While I use the other morph of Polar, now they are forcing me to run 40k health and use polar wind. Soothing spores was good years ago before other classes had their burst heals buffed. But if they nerf polar wind the class is dead. They just took the damage away in PVP if you take the healing what do they have left?

Soothing spores even with 7k weapon damage is not as bursty as the other classes burst heals. Mainly because spores has an AOE effect. Budding seeds is a delayed burst heal.

I agree I think polar wind is to strong! I did not think the other morph was. I just do not understand this change. This class is not the strongest in PVP. Now after this change it will fall to a bottom tier class in PVP.

1st and 2nd place classes are actually buffed indirectly.

Pevey

I wish they would make the artic wind heal a HOT and not burst at all. No 3-second delay, though. That makes it useless as a heal. Or just make polar heal and artic strictly damage. This skill is all over the place. For pve dps, burst heal is already worse than hot, and then 3-second delay means just take the heal away and reallocate that part of the power budget. 3 second delay on a hot is MAYBE useful in certain situations. 3 seconds on a burst is... not.

Soarora

Durham wrote: »

They just destroyed the ICE warden in PVP ... While I use the other morph of Polar, now they are forcing me to run 40k health and use polar wind. Soothing spores was good years ago before other classes had their burst heals buffed. But if they nerf polar wind the class is dead. They just took the damage away in PVP if you take the healing what do they have left?

You can play glass cannon. I do and it works great, but granted I don't really do Cyrodiil nor do I PvP that often. I will miss being able to... yknow... heal myself though. I feel like the cost of arctic blast was enough of a drawback.

Durham

"You can play glass cannon". No current Ice Warden is considered a glass cannon. They are not in the top damage tier. So I do not understand why they hit the Ice Warden meanwhile nothing is doing more damage then a Sorc or Nightblade in PVP.

You cant play a glass cannon warden build. If you want a glass cannon you play a sorc or nightblade.

Durham

Pevey wrote: »

I wish they would make the artic wind heal a HOT and not burst at all. No 3-second delay, though. That makes it useless as a heal. Or just make polar heal and artic strictly damage. This skill is all over the place. For pve dps, burst heal is already worse than hot, and then 3-second delay means just take the heal away and reallocate that part of the power budget. 3 second delay on a hot is MAYBE useful in certain situations. 3 seconds on a burst is... not.

Even if they make Artic a HOT PVP wardens will be forced to POLAR. In PVP you have to have a Burst!

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Durham wrote: »

Lets nerf Polar to! I agree! They just destroyed the ICE warden in PVP ... While I use the other morph of Polar, now they are forcing me to run 40k health and use polar wind. Soothing spores was good years ago before other classes had their burst heals buffed. But if they nerf polar wind the class is dead. They just took the damage away in PVP if you take the healing what do they have left?

Soothing spores even with 7k weapon damage is not as bursty as the other classes burst heals. Mainly because spores has an AOE effect. Budding seeds is a delayed burst heal.

I agree I think polar wind is to strong! I did not think the other morph was. I just do not understand this change. This class is not the strongest in PVP. Now after this change it will fall to a bottom tier class in PVP.

1st and 2nd place classes are actually buffed indirectly.

The arctic changes make no sense, I agree. I also agree there is room to improve on soothing spores as the main class burst heal/cross heal.

But polar wind IS broken. It has been laughably so for an extremely long time now. You give up almost nothing post hybridization to reach 40-45k HP, at which point you can expect to see burst heals in the range of 15K+ and HOT ticks in the range of 3k+ on this skill, on two people every cast.

Again, if they simply made it a self heal, I would not have an issue with it.

ToRelax

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote:

It is our hope that these changes still help the Warden class access powerful tools from their kit, without the overwhelming power they enabled in PvP situations.

I was very confused reading that while Polar Wind remains unaddressed.

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ToRelax wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote:

It is our hope that these changes still help the Warden class access powerful tools from their kit, without the overwhelming power they enabled in PvP situations.

I was very confused reading that while Polar Wind remains unaddressed.

Agreed. Arctic Wind didn't need any changes, and nobody was asking for them.

Polar wind on the other hand has been overperforming for years at this point. It needs adjustment.

xylena_lazarow

Polar is only a problem on high hp dedicated healers.

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xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Polar is only a problem on high hp dedicated healers.

Not quite. The heal becomes problematic at anything north of 38k HP or so, which is quite easily achievable in the current meta with max stats being so irrelevant. Even most warden DDs you'll see in typical small scale groups are using this as their cross heal and stacking 40k HP to support it.

The worse part is that warden healers/tanks can build to be absurdly tanky by simply stacking HP with this heal - while gaining the best cross heal that exists in PVP. It simply does not make sense. An HP scaling heal should not be the strongest cross heal in PVP, you should be required to stack offensive stats just like every other strong cross heal that exists.

I've always seen you post that you're pretty strongly against the "tank meta" and "stalemate builds". Surely you don't actually think this heal is fine in it's current state?

xylena_lazarow

React wrote: »

I've always seen you post that you're pretty strongly against the "tank meta" and "stalemate builds". Surely you don't actually think this heal is fine in it's current state?

Polar on high hp dedicated healers is definitely a problem and I've long said that. I'll agree with you that the cross heal should be reduced. The self heal isn't any worse than other DD self burst heals. Spending the past couple months on Warden DD, it is very "fair" compared to NB or Sorc, Warden can't just disengage and reset like they can, so it's appropriate that they should have some degree of face tanking.

Really there are so many problems after a decade that we're just duct taping the holes on a sinking ship. I get the sense you want a full proper rebalance, and I'd want that too, but the odds are against us.

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xylena_lazarow wrote: »

React wrote: »

I've always seen you post that you're pretty strongly against the "tank meta" and "stalemate builds". Surely you don't actually think this heal is fine in it's current state?

Polar on high hp dedicated healers is definitely a problem and I've long said that. I'll agree with you that the cross heal should be reduced. The self heal isn't any worse than other DD self burst heals. Spending the past couple months on Warden DD, it is very "fair" compared to NB or Sorc, Warden can't just disengage and reset like they can, so it's appropriate that they should have some degree of face tanking.

Really there are so many problems after a decade that we're just duct taping the holes on a sinking ship. I get the sense you want a full proper rebalance, and I'd want that too, but the odds are against us.

Yeah like I've said a few times in this thread, it would be fine if it was just a self heal. That is the easiest and most logical fix for it that would solve the problem in PVP while also allowing for PVE tanks to keep their self heal.

SkaiFaith

I solo Infinite Archive 'til Arc 5 and I HAVE TO slot Polar Wind + Resolving Vigor to be able to barely survive, on an Oakensoul single bar which leaves me with 3 damaging slots.

I have 36K HP + 3.6K gained by the 10% buff from healing.

Since Resolving Vigor is needed for Minor Resolve, Polar Wind is the only heal I have to keep my companion alive, otherwise the companion would instantly be useless.

And you want to nerf Polar Wind... So basically negating Warden's solo capabilities of running Infinite Archive or Veteran Dungeons, or just hard, intense content, like Dragons - this while other classes are more performing.

No way I'll ever agree with this.

CameraBeardThePirate

SkaiFaith wrote: »

I solo Infinite Archive 'til Arc 5 and I HAVE TO slot Polar Wind + Resolving Vigor to be able to barely survive, on an Oakensoul single bar which leaves me with 3 damaging slots.

I have 36K HP + 3.6K gained by the 10% buff from healing.

Since Resolving Vigor is needed for Minor Resolve, Polar Wind is the only heal I have to keep my companion alive, otherwise the companion would instantly be useless.

And you want to nerf Polar Wind... So basically negating Warden's solo capabilities of running Infinite Archive or Veteran Dungeons, or just hard, intense content, like Dragons - this while other classes are more performing.

No way I'll ever agree with this.

No other heal in the game except Hardened Ward is as good as Polar Wind. It's undeniably overtuned.

Soarora

SkaiFaith wrote: »

I solo Infinite Archive 'til Arc 5 and I HAVE TO slot Polar Wind + Resolving Vigor to be able to barely survive, on an Oakensoul single bar which leaves me with 3 damaging slots.

I have 36K HP + 3.6K gained by the 10% buff from healing.

Since Resolving Vigor is needed for Minor Resolve, Polar Wind is the only heal I have to keep my companion alive, otherwise the companion would instantly be useless.

And you want to nerf Polar Wind... So basically negating Warden's solo capabilities of running Infinite Archive or Veteran Dungeons, or just hard, intense content, like Dragons - this while other classes are more performing.

No way I'll ever agree with this.

You're using polar wind to heal your companion, that's not true soloing, that's using a companion (which takes you off the solo board and into the duo, but also there is a difference between true solo and with companion). No other class has a health-based heal that works on other people, either. I make my companions healers anyways, I use arctic blast and sometimes vigor to heal me but that's all. Warden is one of the best IA classes due to its interactions with the IA buffs, like the frost damaging ones and focused efforts, a nerf to polar wind will not cause warden to crumble into an abyss.

SkaiFaith

Soarora wrote: »

SkaiFaith wrote: »

I solo Infinite Archive 'til Arc 5 and I HAVE TO slot Polar Wind + Resolving Vigor to be able to barely survive, on an Oakensoul single bar which leaves me with 3 damaging slots.

I have 36K HP + 3.6K gained by the 10% buff from healing.

Since Resolving Vigor is needed for Minor Resolve, Polar Wind is the only heal I have to keep my companion alive, otherwise the companion would instantly be useless.

And you want to nerf Polar Wind... So basically negating Warden's solo capabilities of running Infinite Archive or Veteran Dungeons, or just hard, intense content, like Dragons - this while other classes are more performing.

No way I'll ever agree with this.

No other class has...

You are right, every class should be exactly the same, in fact why even have different classes to chose?

Wardens sure have same kind of skills as Nightblades, Sorcs and DKs...

Soarora

SkaiFaith wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

SkaiFaith wrote: »

I solo Infinite Archive 'til Arc 5 and I HAVE TO slot Polar Wind + Resolving Vigor to be able to barely survive, on an Oakensoul single bar which leaves me with 3 damaging slots.

I have 36K HP + 3.6K gained by the 10% buff from healing.

Since Resolving Vigor is needed for Minor Resolve, Polar Wind is the only heal I have to keep my companion alive, otherwise the companion would instantly be useless.

And you want to nerf Polar Wind... So basically negating Warden's solo capabilities of running Infinite Archive or Veteran Dungeons, or just hard, intense content, like Dragons - this while other classes are more performing.

No way I'll ever agree with this.

No other class has...

You are right, every class should be exactly the same, in fact why even have different classes to chose?

Wardens sure have same kind of skills as Nightblades, Sorcs and DKs...

Of course, not every class should be the same, I advocate for increased class diversity and have multiple posts about ways to make warden more unique, but if other classes work fine without a health-based heal ally skill, then there's no reason warden wouldn't either and generally I don't see it belonging in the game. It reduces the importance of healers because now a tank can heal (though a tank can heal anyways, but not as effectively due to not scaling off health) and is unhealthy for PvP.

Durham

Honestly nerf polar, keep arctic blast as is. Give back the passive for ice damage. However make it cost more to block or something.

Then please go after Night Blades and Sorcs they are both over performing.

Hasenpfote

Healing has general issues in PvP.

For PvE reason, it is nice, that you have support skills, that skales with Life or Magicka or Stamina or Attackpower.

Arcanists for example has shields, that scales with Resources only.
Warden has Heals, that can scales with life.

In general, heal AND damage need some adjustments in PvP, it is way too easy to get 25k armor penetration.

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Hasenpfote wrote: »

Healing has general issues in PvP.

For PvE reason, it is nice, that you have support skills, that skales with Life or Magicka or Stamina or Attackpower.

Arcanists for example has shields, that scales with Resources only.
Warden has Heals, that can scales with life.

In general, heal AND damage need some adjustments in PvP, it is way too easy to get 25k armor penetration.

Damage in PVP is totally fine. We're years deep into one of the tankiest metas we've ever had, and just now might be seeing some reprieve from that with the adjustment to undeath.

There are certain things in PVP damage wise that could be adjusted - mainly status effects and proc sets. But penetration is not one of them.

Polar wind on the other hand has been in dire need of an adjustment for a very, very long time.

Alchimiste1

Agreed. Artic is fine on live but polar is what creates problems.

MATH_COW

I'm tired of people that want to stupidly nerf just because they see only one side of a subject.
Mostly when they don't see how much the change they want would be horrible for PvE user that have to take a lost bullet because for PvP it's "overpowered".

No, Polar Wind is not broken or overpowered in PvP. Why? Because that healing is the only special thing a warden can do.

Warden doesn't have high mobility with teleportation or big shield like Sorc or Arcanist.
Warden doesn't have invisibility like NB. Warden doesn't have multiple way to push and stunt like Templar.

Warden is simply big resistance and self healing. The basis of what everybody need to be in PvP in a bit better, but nothing special like other class. If he has more than that, Polar Wind would be a bit too strong for sure.
But that's not how warden is. If you remove his ability to heal himself as he can right now it will just kill the possibility to play PvP at all. Warden doesn't have enough power to be a glass canon.

And no, on a dedicated healer it's not overpowered either. Because that just make a healer that can deal with little group but will heal badly on large group. That make hard to kill people? No ***... that's the purpose of healers!
I have a Polar Wind Healer build for battleground and don't worry when people stop being idiot and focus fire me or the same guy in same time the big heal is not enough anymore.

And so for PvE that would be just kill the support option that skill have for Tank and Archive build.
Warden is not the best tank even if they got a skill tree dedicated to tank, the Polar Wind healing on ally saved a lot of group mate and in the Archive on duo that's just wonderfull to have it even if the ally got Pale Order Ring as that will still give him Minor Toughness.

For Artic Wind I already talked about how stupid and annoying the change they will do are...
But to add about PvP... Warden finally got a good tool his burst heal. A good stunt in a world where stunt is everywhere and where the only way we got to stunt people before was Crystalized Slab which require us to get shoot by someone that can just stop shooting us when he see those levitated shield.
Not overpowered nope, as I said about the fact warden is only a bulky thing and not more and because you have to choice the morph. You cannot have both so you need to decide if you prefer to get healing over time or being able to stunt people that come close which is fair.
Choosing Artic mean you'll need to burn your magicka to survive hard moment but choosing Polar mean more heal but no way to stunt people to cancel them or try to execute.

ToRelax

The ability to heal your group shouldn't scale with your own tankieness. This isn't a difficult concept to grasp.

SkaiFaith

@MATH_COW my hero... Wholeheartedly agree!

MATH_COW wrote: »

I'm tired of people that want to stupidly nerf just because they see only one side of a subject.
Mostly when they don't see how much the change they want would be horrible for PvE user that have to take a lost bullet because for PvP it's "overpowered".

No, Polar Wind is not broken or overpowered in PvP. Why? Because that healing is the only special thing a warden can do.

Warden doesn't have high mobility with teleportation or big shield like Sorc or Arcanist.
Warden doesn't have invisibility like NB. Warden doesn't have multiple way to push and stunt like Templar.

Warden is simply big resistance and self healing. The basis of what everybody need to be in PvP in a bit better, but nothing special like other class. If he has more than that, Polar Wind would be a bit too strong for sure.
But that's not how warden is. If you remove his ability to heal himself as he can right now it will just kill the possibility to play PvP at all. Warden doesn't have enough power to be a glass canon.

And no, on a dedicated healer it's not overpowered either. Because that just make a healer that can deal with little group but will heal badly on large group. That make hard to kill people? No ***... that's the purpose of healers!
I have a Polar Wind Healer build for battleground and don't worry when people stop being idiot and focus fire me or the same guy in same time the big heal is not enough anymore.

And so for PvE that would be just kill the support option that skill have for Tank and Archive build.
Warden is not the best tank even if they got a skill tree dedicated to tank, the Polar Wind healing on ally saved a lot of group mate and in the Archive on duo that's just wonderfull to have it even if the ally got Pale Order Ring as that will still give him Minor Toughness.

For Artic Wind I already talked about how stupid and annoying the change they will do are...
But to add about PvP... Warden finally got a good tool his burst heal. A good stunt in a world where stunt is everywhere and where the only way we got to stunt people before was Crystalized Slab which require us to get shoot by someone that can just stop shooting us when he see those levitated shield.
Not overpowered nope, as I said about the fact warden is only a bulky thing and not more and because you have to choice the morph. You cannot have both so you need to decide if you prefer to get healing over time or being able to stunt people that come close which is fair.
Choosing Artic mean you'll need to burn your magicka to survive hard moment but choosing Polar mean more heal but no way to stunt people to cancel them or try to execute.

Not aknowledging this is just shortsighted and quite selfish imho, but sure Polar Wind Wardens will be the ones considered selfish...

Theist_VII

Imagine not only being able to make an absolutely unkillable tank in PvP, and then being able to heal better than other group healers with that tank.

That’s what Polar Wind enables.

If it only healed yourself, then you would be an unkillable tank, something that has class parity, not an unstoppable force of trolling in PvP stalling out every Battleground lobby into 3-5million damage parse sessions where nobody kills each other in Deathmatch.

SkaiFaith

Telos_Tim wrote: »

Imagine not only being able to make an absolutely unkillable tank in PvP, and then being able to heal better than other group healers with that tank.

That’s what Polar Wind enables.

If it only healed yourself, then you would be an unkillable tank, something that has class parity, not an unstoppable force of trolling in PvP stalling out every Battleground lobby into 3-5million damage parse sessions where nobody kills each other in Deathmatch.

I'll just throw this here "casually":

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/662226/absurd-damage-numbers-in-battleground

As reported by many, no one is unkillable it seems. Pretty much the opposite.

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SkaiFaith wrote: »

Telos_Tim wrote: »

Imagine not only being able to make an absolutely unkillable tank in PvP, and then being able to heal better than other group healers with that tank.

That’s what Polar Wind enables.

If it only healed yourself, then you would be an unkillable tank, something that has class parity, not an unstoppable force of trolling in PvP stalling out every Battleground lobby into 3-5million damage parse sessions where nobody kills each other in Deathmatch.

I'll just throw this here "casually":

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/662226/absurd-damage-numbers-in-battleground

As reported by many, no one is unkillable it seems. Pretty much the opposite.

You post a link to a thread with no actual evidence, just anecdotal statements from people saying "I got hit hard".

I'm not a huge BG player these days, mainly because of the state of high MMR bgs. Have you played in them recently? Games where a single 45k health warden is present typically never end, with them doing millions of healing and causing more stalemates than anything else that exists. No other healer is even close in effectiveness, because not only is a high HP warden the best healer, but also an extremely potent tank. Typically in these settings you'd focus and kill the healer to make killing the other players possible - you cannot do that when the healer is simultaneously a tank.

The concept of achieving the best cross healing by raising your HP/survivability is fundamentally flawed. Like many have now suggested, if the skill simply becomes a self heal then the problem is solved. Wardens can continue being high HP tanks with absurd self healing, but they'll lose some cross healing capability to do so.

I just wanted to add as well; if your concerns are PVE related, then they really have no relevance to this conversation. Healing in PVE is not halved by battle spirit, and you have drastically more than you need in pretty much all settings. The necessary balancing to polar wind, if it came, would have no real impact other than making you slot a different heal and perhaps shifting some attributes from HP into something else. Even with 30k hp, I'm sure polar wind would be sufficient in PVE wherever it is used currently because of the lack of battle spirit.