Why adjust arctic blast but not polar wind?

MATH_COW

React wrote: »

MATH_COW wrote: »

React wrote: »

MATH_COW wrote: »

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Telos_Tim wrote: »

MATH_COW wrote: »

Templar doesn't need all those push and stunt they will be alright without it…

This is the second time you’ve said this sentence… Define “push and stunt” 😂

You keep mentioning skill, and a lack there-of, yet from the way you talk about playing the build, it would appear you need to look inward and reflect.

A lot of projection going on here, because if you or anyone around you is dying while you’re running a high health Warden, it’s a skill issue, and a severe one at that. Maybe a build issue too, because you mention bad sustain, need I remind you as a Warden player you should remember that you get 250 free resource return per second from a passive? That’s akin to 500 recovery, except you get it back while holding block, and for doing nothing other than keeping a Green Balance HoT on at least one person? Other classes need to secure a kill for their sustain passives, or wait untill they have an ultimate, but no, Warden gets it free.



There is no other class with passive sustain even remotely close to that.

Ah yeah the famous easy HoT Green Balance skill!
There is... Budding Seeds that is not easy to maintain on PvP because of the movement the short area of effect and the ultimate... So free to get heh.

And yeah people can die around Polar Wind healer because somehow there is people that know how to deal with that kind of thing and don't need to come in forum to complain that this skill is "too strong".

Lotus flower? Trellis? Budding? All excellent skills to proc that passive with depending on the size of your group.

I hate to say it, but you're in the minority here if you think polar wind is completely fine in it's current state.

I'm mostly seeing that I'm the minority that read.

I was answering about how "easily" it is to get the sustain passive from healing with a Green Balance passive.
"250 free resource return per second from passive" he said.
No, Lotus is not a easy way. You need to hit with a light or heavy attack to proc it while you could do something else and that's really not one of the best skill you wanna slot on a build where you haven't a lot of slot free to waist.
Trellis same but there you need to get hit. Budding Seeds I just explain why this is not a easy way to get a free sustain with the passive.

What exactly do you mean by "you need to hit a light or heavy when you could be doing something else"? You weave between abilities, it is like the most basic fundamental mechanic in the game. You can proc that passive on cooldown with Lotus by doing something you'd already be doing anyways.

You're just describing your own inability to manage basic mechanics such as weaving, posisitioning, and buff uptimes while suggesting that others don't understand what they're talking about.

Because as healer in PvP you are most of the time not into focus on your weaving, you are focusing on your allies 90% of the time, even in PvE I don't care of weaving as healer.
And because what you are saying is that I should waist a slot for a skill that is barelly useless in those builds to maintain something that I need to proc every 1 seconds. Because all of this part of the discussion is about "Nature's gift" passive that is supposly easy to maintain at 100% uptime everywhere and everytime.

CameraBeardThePirate

MATH_COW wrote: »

React wrote: »

MATH_COW wrote: »

React wrote: »

MATH_COW wrote: »

-

Telos_Tim wrote: »

MATH_COW wrote: »

Templar doesn't need all those push and stunt they will be alright without it…

This is the second time you’ve said this sentence… Define “push and stunt” 😂

You keep mentioning skill, and a lack there-of, yet from the way you talk about playing the build, it would appear you need to look inward and reflect.

A lot of projection going on here, because if you or anyone around you is dying while you’re running a high health Warden, it’s a skill issue, and a severe one at that. Maybe a build issue too, because you mention bad sustain, need I remind you as a Warden player you should remember that you get 250 free resource return per second from a passive? That’s akin to 500 recovery, except you get it back while holding block, and for doing nothing other than keeping a Green Balance HoT on at least one person? Other classes need to secure a kill for their sustain passives, or wait untill they have an ultimate, but no, Warden gets it free.



There is no other class with passive sustain even remotely close to that.

Ah yeah the famous easy HoT Green Balance skill!
There is... Budding Seeds that is not easy to maintain on PvP because of the movement the short area of effect and the ultimate... So free to get heh.

And yeah people can die around Polar Wind healer because somehow there is people that know how to deal with that kind of thing and don't need to come in forum to complain that this skill is "too strong".

Lotus flower? Trellis? Budding? All excellent skills to proc that passive with depending on the size of your group.

I hate to say it, but you're in the minority here if you think polar wind is completely fine in it's current state.

I'm mostly seeing that I'm the minority that read.

I was answering about how "easily" it is to get the sustain passive from healing with a Green Balance passive.
"250 free resource return per second from passive" he said.
No, Lotus is not a easy way. You need to hit with a light or heavy attack to proc it while you could do something else and that's really not one of the best skill you wanna slot on a build where you haven't a lot of slot free to waist.
Trellis same but there you need to get hit. Budding Seeds I just explain why this is not a easy way to get a free sustain with the passive.

What exactly do you mean by "you need to hit a light or heavy when you could be doing something else"? You weave between abilities, it is like the most basic fundamental mechanic in the game. You can proc that passive on cooldown with Lotus by doing something you'd already be doing anyways.

You're just describing your own inability to manage basic mechanics such as weaving, posisitioning, and buff uptimes while suggesting that others don't understand what they're talking about.

Because as healer in PvP you are most of the time not into focus on your weaving, you are focusing on your allies 90% of the time, even in PvE I don't care of weaving as healer.
And because what you are saying is that I should waist a slot for a skill that is barelly useless in those builds to maintain something that I need to proc every 1 seconds. Because all of this part of the discussion is about "Nature's gift" passive that is supposly easy to maintain at 100% uptime everywhere and everytime.

Lol what? Weaving should be automatic no matter what else you're doing. Healers should still be weaving, and you shouldn't have to focus on it, it's just muscle memory.

techprince

Polar Wind should be a self heal only.

Durham

Telos_Tim wrote: »

MATH_COW wrote: »

Templar doesn't need all those push and stunt they will be alright without it…

This is the second time you’ve said this sentence… Define “push and stunt” 😂

You keep mentioning skill, and a lack there-of, yet from the way you talk about playing the build, it would appear you need to look inward and reflect.

A lot of projection going on here, because if you or anyone around you is dying while you’re running a high health Warden, it’s a skill issue, and a severe one at that. Maybe a build issue too, because you mention bad sustain, need I remind you as a Warden player you should remember that you get 250 free resource return per second from a passive? That’s akin to 500 recovery, except you get it back while holding block, and for doing nothing other than keeping a Green Balance HoT on at least one person? Other classes need to secure a kill for their sustain passives, or wait untill they have an ultimate, but no, Warden gets it free.



There is no other class with passive sustain even remotely close to that.

Most wardens get that passive from just 1 ability that they run. The other is one of the worst abilities in the game that is Crit Buff that other classes get for slotting an ability on 1 bar and they get the effects on both bars lol... But I have to use bar space for it because it takes my crit from 12% to 24% lol... So yea I get that substain if Im hitting someone. I also get that sustain if Im running vines. Currently I am not running vines I just do not have room for it. (Stam Warden) I have to give up this for shields or the new scribe warden class ability. Honestly because of range damage atm I having to pick shields over Vines it was a great ability in the past when melee was more dominate. SO with out that specific ability I do not get that passive all the time like you are suggesting. YOU HAVE TO BUILD FOR SUSTAIN ON ANY WARDEN BUILD!

"keeping a Green Balance HoT on at least one person? "
This is vines. If I run this I lose ability to effectively counter range, I only run this if Im tower humping! I have found that slabs in this meta has been more favorable. So I do not get this regen that you are suggesting..

"Other classes need to secure a kill for their sustain passives"
Not true:
DKs do not, They get it from ult dropping and doing damage
Templars do not (Sustain is on the armor buff with a heal)
Sorcs do not and they have amazing sustain
Night blades has amazing sustain

I cant believe you are actually suggesting that Wardens have the best regen lol... In all my builds I find myself having to build more regen then my Sorc, Nightblade, DK. I have to build in my Templar about the same.

Durham

Why are we having a conversation about Wardens on the boards lol when the meta is clearly Sorcs and Nighblades.

BTW
I would rather run Artic blast over Polar. However now I will have to run a polar build and I have been running it the last few nights. It does not feel as good as my higher damage and hitting power from my Artic Blast build.

But again I dont understand what is going on here. Where is the Night blade and Sorc tune downs. lol. Very frustrating!

SkaiFaith

Durham wrote: »

Telos_Tim wrote: »

MATH_COW wrote: »

Templar doesn't need all those push and stunt they will be alright without it…

This is the second time you’ve said this sentence… Define “push and stunt” 😂

You keep mentioning skill, and a lack there-of, yet from the way you talk about playing the build, it would appear you need to look inward and reflect.

A lot of projection going on here, because if you or anyone around you is dying while you’re running a high health Warden, it’s a skill issue, and a severe one at that. Maybe a build issue too, because you mention bad sustain, need I remind you as a Warden player you should remember that you get 250 free resource return per second from a passive? That’s akin to 500 recovery, except you get it back while holding block, and for doing nothing other than keeping a Green Balance HoT on at least one person? Other classes need to secure a kill for their sustain passives, or wait untill they have an ultimate, but no, Warden gets it free.



There is no other class with passive sustain even remotely close to that.

Most wardens get that passive from just 1 ability that they run. The other is one of the worst abilities in the game that is Crit Buff that other classes get for slotting an ability on 1 bar and they get the effects on both bars lol... But I have to use bar space for it because it takes my crit from 12% to 24% lol... So yea I get that substain if Im hitting someone. I also get that sustain if Im running vines. Currently I am not running vines I just do not have room for it. (Stam Warden) I have to give up this for shields or the new scribe warden class ability. Honestly because of range damage atm I having to pick shields over Vines it was a great ability in the past when melee was more dominate. SO with out that specific ability I do not get that passive all the time like you are suggesting. YOU HAVE TO BUILD FOR SUSTAIN ON ANY WARDEN BUILD!

"keeping a Green Balance HoT on at least one person? "
This is vines. If I run this I lose ability to effectively counter range, I only run this if Im tower humping! I have found that slabs in this meta has been more favorable. So I do not get this regen that you are suggesting..

"Other classes need to secure a kill for their sustain passives"
Not true:
DKs do not, They get it from ult dropping and doing damage
Templars do not (Sustain is on the armor buff with a heal)
Sorcs do not and they have amazing sustain
Night blades has amazing sustain

I cant believe you are actually suggesting that Wardens have the best regen lol... In all my builds I find myself having to build more regen then my Sorc, Nightblade, DK. I have to build in my Templar about the same.

Yes.
The fact people are saying Wardens have best sustain just shows how little they know about the class.

Look at any skilled and informed content creator making guides available to anyone - everyone says Warden has poor sustain.

Btw, I'm not whining about our sustain. The opposite!
I argue that our low sustain is part of the identity of the class which tend to build for high health and low Mag and Stam. It's fine like this.
People are calling to nerf what the upside of being a Warden is. Touch that and we go directly to the bottom. Concede diversity - not every class should play the same way.

Durham wrote: »

Why are we having a conversation about Wardens on the boards lol when the meta is clearly Sorcs and Nighblades.

BTW
I would rather run Artic blast over Polar. However now I will have to run a polar build and I have been running it the last few nights. It does not feel as good as my higher damage and hitting power from my Artic Blast build.

But again I dont understand what is going on here. Where is the Night blade and Sorc tune downs. lol. Very frustrating!

I don't get it either, lol.

Theist_VII

Durham wrote: »

Telos_Tim wrote: »

MATH_COW wrote: »

Templar doesn't need all those push and stunt they will be alright without it…

This is the second time you’ve said this sentence… Define “push and stunt” 😂

You keep mentioning skill, and a lack there-of, yet from the way you talk about playing the build, it would appear you need to look inward and reflect.

A lot of projection going on here, because if you or anyone around you is dying while you’re running a high health Warden, it’s a skill issue, and a severe one at that. Maybe a build issue too, because you mention bad sustain, need I remind you as a Warden player you should remember that you get 250 free resource return per second from a passive? That’s akin to 500 recovery, except you get it back while holding block, and for doing nothing other than keeping a Green Balance HoT on at least one person? Other classes need to secure a kill for their sustain passives, or wait untill they have an ultimate, but no, Warden gets it free.



There is no other class with passive sustain even remotely close to that.

Most wardens get that passive from just 1 ability that they run. The other is one of the worst abilities in the game that is Crit Buff that other classes get for slotting an ability on 1 bar and they get the effects on both bars lol... But I have to use bar space for it because it takes my crit from 12% to 24% lol... So yea I get that substain if Im hitting someone. I also get that sustain if Im running vines. Currently I am not running vines I just do not have room for it. (Stam Warden) I have to give up this for shields or the new scribe warden class ability. Honestly because of range damage atm I having to pick shields over Vines it was a great ability in the past when melee was more dominate. SO with out that specific ability I do not get that passive all the time like you are suggesting. YOU HAVE TO BUILD FOR SUSTAIN ON ANY WARDEN BUILD!

"keeping a Green Balance HoT on at least one person? "
This is vines. If I run this I lose ability to effectively counter range, I only run this if Im tower humping! I have found that slabs in this meta has been more favorable. So I do not get this regen that you are suggesting..

"Other classes need to secure a kill for their sustain passives"
Not true:
DKs do not, They get it from ult dropping and doing damage
Templars do not (Sustain is on the armor buff with a heal)
Sorcs do not and they have amazing sustain
Night blades has amazing sustain

I cant believe you are actually suggesting that Wardens have the best regen lol... In all my builds I find myself having to build more regen then my Sorc, Nightblade, DK. I have to build in my Templar about the same.

I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt because you might be having a bad day, so let me explain the difference between an active ability and a passive ability.

While support Wardens primarily and the occasional flame or poison using, ult’ing DK get their sustain from a passive ability, other classes get their sustain from active abilities. Active abilities require a skill slot, passive abilities do not. Support Wardens are going to dip into Green Balance regardless of the passive for its healing power, meaning that they are obtaining their sustain for free.


Templar

you ONLY have Rune (active ability), on first glance it looks pretty good for sustain, until you realize that is the only thing giving you any and are having to heavy attack constantly.

Nightblade

you used to have Reave on Incap (active ability) and it was great for sustain, they then removed it, and then put a stipulation on Siphoning Strikes (active ability) where you need to be doing damage each second to sustain. Guess which class is the direct damage class. Couldn’t be Nightblade, could it? You need to kill targets to return resources.

Sorcerer

you have an active skill, Dark Deal, it is cracked, yet still an active skill, you need to slot the skill, knowing it’s only there for sustain.

Dragonknight

is a bit busted with sustain passives, they have three, but each of them are individually weaker than the one passive found on Warden.

Necromancer

you need to use the tethers for sustain, and the ghost. Three (3) active abilities. You can write off the ghost because it’s a good skill standalone, meaning the passive is free-er than free.

Arcanist

you have two passives for sustain that are both individually weaker than the Warden one.

Now, some of those classes do have % recovery increases in their passives, but the values are so small that you’re only getting around 75-100 extra resources a second, compared to the 250 you get from Nature’s Gift on a support and are not worth the mention.

All of this is one roundabout way to say, Warden has the best passive ability for resource return, but only on support builds.

Which is completely off-topic when it comes to Polar Wind, but someone earlier in the thread tried to make the claim that they can’t sustain the skill on a support, which is a bold lie.

Theist_VII

Why would a Warden DD be commenting about poor sustain? It has no relevance to the topic… no DD should be running 40k+ health, which is necessary to exploit Polar Wind.

Kind of funny seeing people offended by the call out of this blatantly obvious imbalanced skill.

As a Warden main, one should be grateful to @React for having made this post to bring attention to the mistake in morph nerfs, as Arctic Wind, although annoying, wasn’t breaking any ground as a heal.

Durham

Telos_Tim wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

Telos_Tim wrote: »

MATH_COW wrote: »

Templar doesn't need all those push and stunt they will be alright without it…

This is the second time you’ve said this sentence… Define “push and stunt” 😂

You keep mentioning skill, and a lack there-of, yet from the way you talk about playing the build, it would appear you need to look inward and reflect.

A lot of projection going on here, because if you or anyone around you is dying while you’re running a high health Warden, it’s a skill issue, and a severe one at that. Maybe a build issue too, because you mention bad sustain, need I remind you as a Warden player you should remember that you get 250 free resource return per second from a passive? That’s akin to 500 recovery, except you get it back while holding block, and for doing nothing other than keeping a Green Balance HoT on at least one person? Other classes need to secure a kill for their sustain passives, or wait untill they have an ultimate, but no, Warden gets it free.



There is no other class with passive sustain even remotely close to that.

Most wardens get that passive from just 1 ability that they run. The other is one of the worst abilities in the game that is Crit Buff that other classes get for slotting an ability on 1 bar and they get the effects on both bars lol... But I have to use bar space for it because it takes my crit from 12% to 24% lol... So yea I get that substain if Im hitting someone. I also get that sustain if Im running vines. Currently I am not running vines I just do not have room for it. (Stam Warden) I have to give up this for shields or the new scribe warden class ability. Honestly because of range damage atm I having to pick shields over Vines it was a great ability in the past when melee was more dominate. SO with out that specific ability I do not get that passive all the time like you are suggesting. YOU HAVE TO BUILD FOR SUSTAIN ON ANY WARDEN BUILD!

"keeping a Green Balance HoT on at least one person? "
This is vines. If I run this I lose ability to effectively counter range, I only run this if Im tower humping! I have found that slabs in this meta has been more favorable. So I do not get this regen that you are suggesting..

"Other classes need to secure a kill for their sustain passives"
Not true:
DKs do not, They get it from ult dropping and doing damage
Templars do not (Sustain is on the armor buff with a heal)
Sorcs do not and they have amazing sustain
Night blades has amazing sustain

I cant believe you are actually suggesting that Wardens have the best regen lol... In all my builds I find myself having to build more regen then my Sorc, Nightblade, DK. I have to build in my Templar about the same.

I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt because you might be having a bad day, so let me explain the difference between an active ability and a passive ability.

While support Wardens primarily and the occasional flame or poison using, ult’ing DK get their sustain from a passive ability, other classes get their sustain from active abilities. Active abilities require a skill slot, passive abilities do not. Support Wardens are going to dip into Green Balance regardless of the passive for its healing power, meaning that they are obtaining their sustain for free.


Templar

you ONLY have Rune (active ability), on first glance it looks pretty good for sustain, until you realize that is the only thing giving you any and are having to heavy attack constantly.

Nightblade

you used to have Reave on Incap (active ability) and it was great for sustain, they then removed it, and then put a stipulation on Siphoning Strikes (active ability) where you need to be doing damage each second to sustain. Guess which class is the direct damage class. Couldn’t be Nightblade, could it? You need to kill targets to return resources.

Sorcerer

you have an active skill, Dark Deal, it is cracked, yet still an active skill, you need to slot the skill, knowing it’s only there for sustain.

Dragonknight

is a bit busted with sustain passives, they have three, but each of them are individually weaker than the one passive found on Warden.

Necromancer

you need to use the tethers for sustain, and the ghost. Three (3) active abilities. You can write off the ghost because it’s a good skill standalone, meaning the passive is free-er than free.

Arcanist

you have two passives for sustain that are both individually weaker than the Warden one.

Now, some of those classes do have % recovery increases in their passives, but the values are so small that you’re only getting around 75-100 extra resources a second, compared to the 250 you get from Nature’s Gift on a support and are not worth the mention.

All of this is one roundabout way to say, Warden has the best passive ability for resource return, but only on support builds.

Which is completely off-topic when it comes to Polar Wind, but someone earlier in the thread tried to make the claim that they can’t sustain the skill on a support, which is a bold lie.

You are correct after this patch you are only going to have support Warden but many of us do not play support wardens we play other styles.. Like I have said in every post the only VIABLE PVP Warden will be a support healing warden. Healing Wardens as long as they have vines and they are getting hit you correct they have good sustain.


Meanwhile - I can play any role on Night Blade! On a Sorc I can be tanky and still have some of the highest damage in Cyrodil

This change will make the Warden a class near the bottom only to be tank or healer.

SkaiFaith

Telos_Tim wrote: »

Also, I would advise people check the definition difference between whining and providing feedback before they make themselves look more foolish than they already have.

That being said, if you’re a Warden DD commenting about poor sustain, it has no relevance to the topic, because no DD should be running 40k+ health, which is necessary to exploit Polar Wind.

Not to mention, if time was taken to read the thread, it would be visible that we’re all confused why Arctic Wind was hit instead of Polar Wind, when Polar Wind was the problem.

If anything, @React having made this post has brought attention to the mistake and could inadvertently do more to fix Warden than hurt it, as it was an obvious mistake to nerf Arctic Wind instead of Polar Wind.

First, I said "I'm not whining", so what's the problem since I was talking in my defense, not to disregard anyone...

Second - some talk from a PvP perspective and others from a PvE.
If you want my specific case shown: run an Oakensoul Warden in the Infinite Archive with a Companion keeping it alive trough Arc 5 without Polar Wind - it's just plain impossible.

Oakensoul give you just 5 slots.
Polar Wind is perfect in IA because you slot just that and you keep your companion alive. Any other heal doesn't work as efficiently, there simply is no choice.
In IA later arcs high damage is needed and if I have to give up slots for multiple healing skills... And now we are also losing damage if we go above 30K health which is obligatory in IA to survive.

All of this is nerfing Wardens a lot in IA or any "solo" content, being World Events or Dungeons (this time I specify ""solo"" because in fact I'm not solo with a companion that needs heals, right?) making impossible to stay at the same level as before.

And before you say World Events are not solo content - not everyone plays when/where it's full of people. Xbox EU is empty most of the time I'm online. No one doing Dragons, Harrowstorms, or whatever.

Edit: man... It was the other side of the arguers that talked about "best sustain" on Wardens when it simply is not true. I couldn't care less about sustain as I said multiple times.

Durham

"Which is completely off-topic when it comes to Polar Wind, but someone earlier in the thread tried to make the claim that they can’t sustain the skill on a support, which is a bold lie."

Im not a support Warden.

Polar wind has an animation attached to it. I can spam my DK heal burst quicker At 40k health at 24% crit you are healing for 8.5k ish 3 out of 4 times... 1 out of 4 you will be 12 to13k. You can spam it but as Vamp 3 its sitting 4.5K + in cost. Because you are investing so much in health your Magicka probally will not go much over 20k. If you are stam build you looking at 17k if you are running Rally Cry. Most Wardens that I know do not want to run 40K+ health to be effective.

I also cant spam Polar , see I also have to cast my armor, speed and shields to get to the nearest LOS because of the amount of Range out there, and finally I have maybe 4 Polors before Im out of Magicka. I literally have to build for 2k+ magicka and 1800+ Stam recovery so I can run shields so I vigor and polar off the high range damage incoming! BTW I never build for that much regen on DK! Please understand that if Im running vines its not enough healing to out shine slabs currently so again that source of regen is a no go for me when Im on the defensive!

2 sorcs on you cant tank it very long you have to LOS
2 nightblades you cant tank it very long you have to LOS
2 Warden on a Nightblade they can avoid most of your very predictable damage and even tank it because you cannot land half your damage. Crit healing is massive for these guys!
2 Wardens on a Sorc yea its a stalmate because of the off healing the sorc will have a hard time taking one of the wardens down but they probally will not kill the sorc. Shields are insane atm.

Why are we even looking at the Warden is my whole point!

Durham

The only thing a Warden has that is OP is Polar. Thats it! I can name plenty of OP items on other class and several of these class have multiple OP abilities. Artic blast does not need this change, the Warden class as a whole does not need this change to the damage. Under 30k damage requirement please do not do this!

Again why are we bringing Wardens to the nerf table?

Theist_VII

Durham wrote: »

"Which is completely off-topic when it comes to Polar Wind, but someone earlier in the thread tried to make the claim that they can’t sustain the skill on a support, which is a bold lie."

This is a fact.

Polar wind has an animation attached to it. I can spam my DK heal burst quicker At 40k health at 24% crit you are healing for 8.5k ish 3 out of 4 times... 1 out of 4 you will be 12 to13k. You can spam it but as Vamp 3 its sitting 4.5K + in cost. Because you are investing so much in health your Magicka probally will not go much over 20k. If you are stam build you looking at 17k if you are running Rally Cry. Most Wardens that I know do not want to run 40K+ health to be effective.

I also cant spam Polar , see I also have to cast my armor, speed and shields to get to the nearest LOS because of the amount of Range out there, and finally I have maybe 4 Polors before Im out of Magicka. I literally have to build for 2k+ magicka and 1800+ Stam recovery so I can run shields so I vigor and polar off the high range damage incoming! BTW I never build for that much regen on DK! Please understand that if Im running vines its not enough healing to out shine slabs currently so again that source of regen is a no go for me when Im on the defensive!

2 sorcs on you cant tank it very long you have to LOS
2 nightblades you cant tank it very long you have to LOS
2 Warden on a Nightblade they can avoid most of your very predictable damage and even tank it because you cannot land half your damage. Crit healing is massive for these guys!
2 Wardens on a Sorc yea its a stalmate because of the off healing the sorc will have a hard time taking one of the wardens down but they probally will not kill the sorc. Shields are insane atm.

Why are we even looking at the Warden is my whole point!

What you’re describing is difficulty sustaining on a bruiser, not a support build.

What we’re describing, is a skill being abused by people designing their support builds around 40-50k health, to be exploitative on a support. One can very easily sustain using that passive, the Blue Betty, and either Roksa or a set of Wretched Vitality, maybe some magicka recovery or reduced cost glyphs… I mean you don’t exactly need to build into weapon/spell damage. Polar Wind does more than enough alone to cover the healing, with other skills only there to either provide defensive utility or sustain.

Now if we’re going to talk about what you’re talking about…

Wardens are not great at damage right now outside of Northern Storm, they’re honestly kind of sad, I would love to see their Animal Companion skills less Vvardenfell themed and more powerful, I have advocated for such on many different occasions.

Now for the two problem classes, Sorcerer and Nightblade are a problem, and it’s going to be even worse next update, we all know that. I’m sure even ZOS knows that, but Gilliam is a rogue and Magicka Sorcerer was bottom of the barrel for years, and so my presumption is that their being given some time on top.

While I agree with your sentiment, that’s not really the topic, and no one in here is targeting Warden, we’re bringing light to a skill that has been destroying the PvP experience for years now.

SkaiFaith

Durham wrote: »

The only thing a Warden has that is OP is Polar. Thats it! I can name plenty of OP items on other class and several of these class have multiple OP abilities. Artic blast does not need this change, the Warden class as a whole does not need this change to the damage. Under 30k damage requirement please do not do this!

Again why are we bringing Wardens to the nerf table?

Couldn't agree more. Beyond comprehension...

Durham

Telos_Tim wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

"Which is completely off-topic when it comes to Polar Wind, but someone earlier in the thread tried to make the claim that they can’t sustain the skill on a support, which is a bold lie."

This is a fact.

Polar wind has an animation attached to it. I can spam my DK heal burst quicker At 40k health at 24% crit you are healing for 8.5k ish 3 out of 4 times... 1 out of 4 you will be 12 to13k. You can spam it but as Vamp 3 its sitting 4.5K + in cost. Because you are investing so much in health your Magicka probally will not go much over 20k. If you are stam build you looking at 17k if you are running Rally Cry. Most Wardens that I know do not want to run 40K+ health to be effective.

I also cant spam Polar , see I also have to cast my armor, speed and shields to get to the nearest LOS because of the amount of Range out there, and finally I have maybe 4 Polors before Im out of Magicka. I literally have to build for 2k+ magicka and 1800+ Stam recovery so I can run shields so I vigor and polar off the high range damage incoming! BTW I never build for that much regen on DK! Please understand that if Im running vines its not enough healing to out shine slabs currently so again that source of regen is a no go for me when Im on the defensive!

2 sorcs on you cant tank it very long you have to LOS
2 nightblades you cant tank it very long you have to LOS
2 Warden on a Nightblade they can avoid most of your very predictable damage and even tank it because you cannot land half your damage. Crit healing is massive for these guys!
2 Wardens on a Sorc yea its a stalmate because of the off healing the sorc will have a hard time taking one of the wardens down but they probally will not kill the sorc. Shields are insane atm.

Why are we even looking at the Warden is my whole point!

What you’re describing is difficulty sustaining on a bruiser, not a support build.

What we’re describing, is a skill being abused by people designing their support builds around 40-50k health, to be exploitative on a support. One can very easily sustain using that passive, the Blue Betty, and either Roksa or a set of Wretched Vitality, maybe some magicka recovery or reduced cost glyphs… I mean you don’t exactly need to build into weapon/spell damage. Polar Wind does more than enough alone to cover the healing, with other skills only there to either provide defensive utility or sustain.

Now if we’re going to talk about what you’re talking about…

Wardens are not great at damage right now outside of Northern Storm, they’re honestly kind of sad, while I would love to see their Animal Companion skills less Vvardenfell themed and more powerful. Yes Sorcerer and Nightblade are a problem, and it’s going to be even worse next update, we all know that. Most people do.

While I agree with your sentiment, that’s not really the topic, and no one in here is targeting Warden, we’re bringing light to a skill that has been destroying the PvP experience for years now.

Ok Gotcha and understand, I remember just 2 years ago that Wardens were pretty limited you never wanted a Warden quest, because you simply did not see a ton of them. I think this change will drop the Warden down to the bottom once again.

Theist_VII

Durham wrote: »

Telos_Tim wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

"Which is completely off-topic when it comes to Polar Wind, but someone earlier in the thread tried to make the claim that they can’t sustain the skill on a support, which is a bold lie."

This is a fact.

Polar wind has an animation attached to it. I can spam my DK heal burst quicker At 40k health at 24% crit you are healing for 8.5k ish 3 out of 4 times... 1 out of 4 you will be 12 to13k. You can spam it but as Vamp 3 its sitting 4.5K + in cost. Because you are investing so much in health your Magicka probally will not go much over 20k. If you are stam build you looking at 17k if you are running Rally Cry. Most Wardens that I know do not want to run 40K+ health to be effective.

I also cant spam Polar , see I also have to cast my armor, speed and shields to get to the nearest LOS because of the amount of Range out there, and finally I have maybe 4 Polors before Im out of Magicka. I literally have to build for 2k+ magicka and 1800+ Stam recovery so I can run shields so I vigor and polar off the high range damage incoming! BTW I never build for that much regen on DK! Please understand that if Im running vines its not enough healing to out shine slabs currently so again that source of regen is a no go for me when Im on the defensive!

2 sorcs on you cant tank it very long you have to LOS
2 nightblades you cant tank it very long you have to LOS
2 Warden on a Nightblade they can avoid most of your very predictable damage and even tank it because you cannot land half your damage. Crit healing is massive for these guys!
2 Wardens on a Sorc yea its a stalmate because of the off healing the sorc will have a hard time taking one of the wardens down but they probally will not kill the sorc. Shields are insane atm.

Why are we even looking at the Warden is my whole point!

What you’re describing is difficulty sustaining on a bruiser, not a support build.

What we’re describing, is a skill being abused by people designing their support builds around 40-50k health, to be exploitative on a support. One can very easily sustain using that passive, the Blue Betty, and either Roksa or a set of Wretched Vitality, maybe some magicka recovery or reduced cost glyphs… I mean you don’t exactly need to build into weapon/spell damage. Polar Wind does more than enough alone to cover the healing, with other skills only there to either provide defensive utility or sustain.

Now if we’re going to talk about what you’re talking about…

Wardens are not great at damage right now outside of Northern Storm, they’re honestly kind of sad, while I would love to see their Animal Companion skills less Vvardenfell themed and more powerful. Yes Sorcerer and Nightblade are a problem, and it’s going to be even worse next update, we all know that. Most people do.

While I agree with your sentiment, that’s not really the topic, and no one in here is targeting Warden, we’re bringing light to a skill that has been destroying the PvP experience for years now.

Ok Gotcha and understand, I remember just 2 years ago that Wardens were pretty limited you never wanted a Warden quest, because you simply did not see a ton of them. I think this change will drop the Warden down to the bottom once again.

If you want to make a new thread going over what you want to see out of the new direction of pulling power from Winter’s Embrace and moving it to Animal Companions, I’ll help you keep it relevant.

There is nothing I want more than to be able to replace the Netch, Shalks, Cliffracer, and Mushrooms. It’s honestly the whole reason I rarely touch mine.

React

It is such an ESO-mentality to constantly deflect valid balance concerns by saying "what about this class/skill/x, it's way more broken!".

Nobody is doubting that NB has multiple things that overperform about it, nor that hardened ward is broken on magsorc. This thread is about polar wind.

Polar wind is fundamentally broken because it is a crossheal that scales with your defensive max stat, HP. Unlike nearly every other cross heal in the game, which all require offensive stats to boost their tooltips, polar wind does not. It enables supports to become so extremely difficult to kill that it often requires 3-4 coordinated, skilled, and high damage players to actually overwhelm the healing that the single support is putting out. While being this tanky, they're also providing a very similar amount of cross healing to several nearby allies, making them almost equally difficult to kill.

It is a clear imbalance. The skill was obviously designed as a heal intended for PVE tanks to support themselves, but it is drastically overperforming as a cross heal in PVP where supports and even some DD's are able to run 40-50k health without actually sacrificing much else.

There is room to improve upon the other, actual burst heal on the class (soothing spores), and other abilities in the kit as well I am sure. But again, this thread is about polar wind and it is relevant right now because they're looking at the other morph of this skill this PTS cycle, despite the other morph being in a totally fine state as is on live.

MATH_COW

All I see in this topic is people that don't play or even know Warden who don't want to listen people that play the class they want to nerf lol

CameraBeardThePirate

React wrote: »

It is such an ESO-mentality to constantly deflect valid balance concerns by saying "what about this class/skill/x, it's way more broken!".

It's actually a logical fallacy called Whataboutism or a Red Herring fallacy, and if someone is using it, their argument should be taken with a grain of salt or ignored entirely

xylena_lazarow

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

It's actually a logical fallacy called Whataboutism or a Red Herring fallacy, and if someone is using it, their argument should be taken with a grain of salt or ignored entirely

What-about can definitely be ignored. Polar's place in the meta is worth discussing though. It's far from the only way to stack obnoxious amounts of cross healing, delete Polar and Wardens do the same thing with scribbles or whatever. So yeah you've nerfed Warden a bit and pushed them from class into generics, but the same obnoxious play patterns remain. That said, Polar is definitely overpowered compared to other cross heals so I'm not opposed to a nerf.

CameraBeardThePirate

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

It's actually a logical fallacy called Whataboutism or a Red Herring fallacy, and if someone is using it, their argument should be taken with a grain of salt or ignored entirely

What-about can definitely be ignored. Polar's place in the meta is worth discussing though. It's far from the only way to stack obnoxious amounts of cross healing, delete Polar and Wardens do the same thing with scribbles or whatever. So yeah you've nerfed Warden a bit and pushed them from class into generics, but the same obnoxious play patterns remain. That said, Polar is definitely overpowered compared to other cross heals so I'm not opposed to a nerf.

They don't do the "same" thing with scribing though. Polar is an undeniably stronger heal than any of the scribing heals.

Scribing shields certainly come close when there's only one healer/shielder - but scribing shields of the same type can't be stacked while Polar can.

xylena_lazarow

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

They don't do the "same" thing with scribing though. Polar is an undeniably stronger heal than any of the scribing heals.

Highest Polar at 42k hp was around 16k, while highest Healing Contingency has been around 13k on my NB, the HoT is much lower, but it also gives a unique Affix buff and hits the whole group when stacked, not just one ally. Sure it's not as strong as Polar, it's definitely a nerf, you're still not getting rid of cross healing Wardens anytime soon.

Alchimiste1

MATH_COW wrote: »

All I see in this topic is people that don't play or even know Warden who don't want to listen people that play the class they want to nerf lol

Ah yes, nothing wrong with Polar wind. Absolutely nothing at all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZhADMGA6Ro

Wait, was that a 20k burst heal ? oh, and I forgot to clip the 5k crit hot tics from it. Oh and it heals others ?

Alchimiste1

it's not even min/maxed. I don't think I have a full 5 piece on. Could be higher with sets that increase healing done/received.

RisKKR

Somebody had made a decent point to me that if the Devs are adamant in this AB change, then they should MAJORLY buff leaching vines/trellis and lotus in healing power to compensate. Like literally triple the healing or something since we don't have a burst heal anymore. Most warden DDs are running leaching/trellis and lotus.

xylena_lazarow

RisKKR wrote: »

Somebody had made a decent point to me that if the Devs are adamant in this AB change, then they should MAJORLY buff leaching vines/trellis and lotus in healing power to compensate. Like literally triple the healing or something since we don't have a burst heal anymore. Most warden DDs are running leaching/trellis and lotus.

They want you to pay cash for Gold Road so you can run Healing Soul or Healing Contingency.

MATH_COW

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

MATH_COW wrote: »

All I see in this topic is people that don't play or even know Warden who don't want to listen people that play the class they want to nerf lol

Ah yes, nothing wrong with Polar wind. Absolutely nothing at all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZhADMGA6Ro

Wait, was that a 20k burst heal ? oh, and I forgot to clip the 5k crit hot tics from it. Oh and it heals others ?

Ah yeah showing me the power of a crit heal, which basically mean something that doesn't happen 100% of the time and saying "otherS" when in reality it's just ONE other person at a time in a short radius around you. Fallacious argument.

MATH_COW

React wrote: »

It is such an ESO-mentality to constantly deflect valid balance concerns by saying "what about this class/skill/x, it's way more broken!".

Depend on what you call a "valid balance" because this is just valid for people that doesn't care about playing warden.

But in fact the worst mentality is mostly the idea that we should nerf everything that is good, even barelly good, when we could just work on buffing what is not good enough.

This is a general mentalily in every game that I find a bit stupid. When something is good and fun we rather nerf them to lower those to the same level of bad things rather than buffing bad things to the level of good things.

This would be certainly harder but way better for everybody than stupidly lowering everything to the bottom tier.

SeaGtGruff

I thought Tanks were expected to help the other players in their groups by giving them buffs as well as debuffing the enemies. Applying a burst heal plus a HOT to another player seems to me like a kind of buff.

Note, while I do have an alt who's a full-Health Warden Tank, I don't actively play on him. My two main characters are a Sorc Tank and a Nightblade Tank, but they're really more DD/Tank hybrids designed for normal solo play, not for tanking vet group content. In other words, I don't see myself as having a dog in this particular fight, I'm just pointing out that Tanks have certain expectations placed upon them besides merely taunting enemies.

React

MATH_COW wrote: »

React wrote: »

It is such an ESO-mentality to constantly deflect valid balance concerns by saying "what about this class/skill/x, it's way more broken!".

Depend on what you call a "valid balance" because this is just valid for people that doesn't care about playing warden.

But in fact the worst mentality is mostly the idea that we should nerf everything that is good, even barelly good, when we could just work on buffing what is not good enough.

This is a general mentalily in every game that I find a bit stupid. When something is good and fun we rather nerf them to lower those to the same level of bad things rather than buffing bad things to the level of good things.

This would be certainly harder but way better for everybody than stupidly lowering everything to the bottom tier.

I play warden, and have on and off since it launched in morrowind. I enjoy playing warden in small scale.

There is nothing "fun" about polar wind, unless you're abusing it to make yourself and your friends unkillable. It is extremely imbalanced.

MATH_COW wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

MATH_COW wrote: »

All I see in this topic is people that don't play or even know Warden who don't want to listen people that play the class they want to nerf lol

Ah yes, nothing wrong with Polar wind. Absolutely nothing at all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZhADMGA6Ro

Wait, was that a 20k burst heal ? oh, and I forgot to clip the 5k crit hot tics from it. Oh and it heals others ?

Ah yeah showing me the power of a crit heal, which basically mean something that doesn't happen 100% of the time and saying "otherS" when in reality it's just ONE other person at a time in a short radius around you. Fallacious argument.

Ah yes, so we shouldn't consider the crit values of heals. Sound logic.

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

I thought Tanks were expected to help the other players in their groups by giving them buffs as well as debuffing the enemies. Applying a burst heal plus a HOT to another player seems to me like a kind of buff.

Note, while I do have an alt who's a full-Health Warden Tank, I don't actively play on him. My two main characters are a Sorc Tank and a Nightblade Tank, but they're really more DD/Tank hybrids designed for normal solo play, not for tanking vet group content. In other words, I don't see myself as having a dog in this particular fight, I'm just pointing out that Tanks have certain expectations placed upon them besides merely taunting enemies.

Buffs and heals are two drastically different things. There's nothing wrong with tanks providing buffs - such as major/minor buffs, set buffs, etc. There's nothing wrong with tanks providing utility either, via crowd control, pulls, or small off healing/shielding.

Polar wind is not a small burst/off heal. Once you hit around 45-50k HP, it is the strongest non-ultimate burst heal you'll see in PVP, has one of, if not THE strongest non-ultimate HOTs in PVP, and hits two people every cast.

This effectively turns a warden tank into the best healer, and a warden healer into the best tank. Unlike nearly all of the other heals in the game, which require offensive stats, Polar wind scales with a defensive stat.

Again, this would be fine if it were a self heal - tanks being hard to kill while providing the things I mentioned earlier are fine. But tanks providing the strongest cross healing in PVP is extremely problematic.