Please do NOT include the vote/recommend aspect to Home Tours

tindomiel4

JavaRen wrote: »

I do not mean to neglect or downplay anyone's concerns. I'm actually trying to better understand them by seeking specific examples, rather than abstracts, precisely because I am having trouble seeing the big deal and would rather understand than dismiss prematurely.

I appreciate that. Specific hypotheses have been advanced, including by your post, and that's all we can truly do until people experience the system in real time. I don't know how well it can actually be tested on the PTS, but presumably we might start to get a better idea.

Razmirra

This has too much potential for abuse, judging by what I have read so far. I'll keep my houses locked and reserved for guildmates and friends who want to take a look at it.

darvaria

Housing is a true sandbox in this game.

I'm looking forward to seeing all kinds of houses. I think this "voting" will ruin the entire experience. Will be fun to see ALL kinds of houses. Lavish ones, modern, functional, creepy, big and small. Look to see what ppl do what their spaces. It shouldn't be a competition.

My house is 100% functional with EVERY convenience crammed in the entrance. No walking and searching. If we are "voting" I just won't put it on tour.

Necrotech_Master

darvaria wrote: »

Housing is a true sandbox in this game.

I'm looking forward to seeing all kinds of houses. I think this "voting" will ruin the entire experience. Will be fun to see ALL kinds of houses. Lavish ones, modern, functional, creepy, big and small. Look to see what ppl do what their spaces. It shouldn't be a competition.

My house is 100% functional with EVERY convenience crammed in the entrance. No walking and searching. If we are "voting" I just won't put it on tour.

its only a competition if you really care, i could care less how many recommendations my home(s) will get when i list them as there is no benefits or otherwise

the search as explained by some others, can but does not always take recommendations into account, you have to actively include that as a search parameter

the "home page" from what it sounds like will have the featured homes, one "highly recommended" and one with low recommendation count, but again, not something i really care about if it happens or not

tsaescishoeshiner

SilverBride wrote: »

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

...just taking a shot at what's so bad about the system being abused.

If the system is being openly abused then the recommendations are rendered invalid, so what is the point of even having them?

Well, to start, Recommended isn't the only feature of Housing Tours. In fact, Recommended hadn't even populated on PTS yet yesterday and I found some awesome builds via Browse. That I Recommended.

Secondly, why would a small amount of potential, unprovable abuse make the whole system worthless? It would have to happen at a pretty big scale to make any difference. I Recommended two houses that were amazing. I'm sure people are going to use it legitimately the vast majority of the time, otherwise people wouldn't have any reason to buy votes in the first place.

Someone could also counter that by running their own honest-vote housing tours to support their fellow housing communitymembers.

It's also no different from housing competitions where judges can vote only for their friends or guildmates, be bribed, or extort players. But I haven't heard people say that potential makes housing contests completely pointless. Compared to Housing Tours, that's more likely on paper because there are actual rewards.

Is it different from EHT's trending feature?

I also just don't see how someone else doing that impacts me. Someone else buying Emperor or a trial carry doesn't make me want to never enter Cyrodiil or a trial.

Again, no one needs to like this system. There are reasons to not like it and reasons to prefer EHT. We all see things differently, which is valid and interesting. I'm just curious as to some reasons that are being Agreed by other people that don't add up to me.

(Agree can also be abused or bought on the forums, with the rewards of ... social clout and badges? Yet it wouldn't stop me making a comment. I'm not trying to be difficult, I just don't see the difference. : P )

Jaraal

JavaRen wrote: »

So, I'll try to be more clear: I am interested in actual (well hypothetical) stories of how this can go wrong, not concerns and fears. For example: "Bob is in a housing guild,, the GM organizes an event to reccomend their GF's house. Bob doesn't want to (for pick a reason) and instead of quietly smipping it he says so. Given the toxic nature of said guild/GM Bob is ostracized or even booted." Or maybe "Kate is proud of her decorating and would like others to appreciate it to. But due to how others are unfairly buying (or coercing) recommendations her homes never show up on the highlight list, but instead are only seen by her friends and people who search by tags or names. This bums her out."

So, anyone have something more severe than these?

How about this:

George is disabled, and isn't very competitive at high APM things, such as trials, dungeons, arenas, and PvP. But George is a master at home decorating, and he sells his talent as a service to be able to afford more furnishings, furnishing plans, and gear to be better at his overland endeavors. He is also socially reserved, so he shies away from guilds and zone chat, and depends on word of mouth to promote his digital business.

Sarah is the leader of a trade/social guild, parses 100k+ DPS, and has unlimited funds. Her home decorating skills are average, but she longs for the spotlight, strives to be at the top of the recommended housing tours list, and wants to make a killing as a semi-professional house decorator. Sarah sends out guild mails urging everyone to vote for her, offers to pay for votes in zone chat, and puts the word out on all social media platforms. Her marketing campaign is a force to be reckoned with, her house is always the first one you see in the activity finder, and soon everybody wants to have a house they can proudly say was decorated by her. Of course, the creations aren't very good... but hey... not everyone can claim they overpaid for an original Sarah 'masterpiece,' now, can they?

spartaxoxo

JavaRen wrote: »

I do not mean to neglect or downplay anyone's concerns. I'm actually trying to better understand them by seeking specific examples, rather than abstracts, precisely because I am having trouble seeing the big deal and would rather understand than dismiss prematurely.

I think if the housing recommendations were to be filled with the same people all the time, I can see how it would leave a sour tastes in other's mouth. There's a pretty decent chance that players that are more popular are going to be featured more, regardless of the quality of their build. Hopefully those featured a lot will have the builds to match and it will be the case they're both popular and talented. But, I can see why those who want their stuff featured wouldn't like it.

tsaescishoeshiner

Jaraal wrote: »

JavaRen wrote: »

So, I'll try to be more clear: I am interested in actual (well hypothetical) stories of how this can go wrong, not concerns and fears. For example: "Bob is in a housing guild,, the GM organizes an event to reccomend their GF's house. Bob doesn't want to (for pick a reason) and instead of quietly smipping it he says so. Given the toxic nature of said guild/GM Bob is ostracized or even booted." Or maybe "Kate is proud of her decorating and would like others to appreciate it to. But due to how others are unfairly buying (or coercing) recommendations her homes never show up on the highlight list, but instead are only seen by her friends and people who search by tags or names. This bums her out."

So, anyone have something more severe than these?

How about this:

George is disabled, and isn't very competitive at high APM things, such as trials, dungeons, arenas, and PvP. But George is a master at home decorating, and he sells his talent as a service to be able to afford more furnishings, furnishing plans, and gear to be better at his overland endeavors. He is also socially reserved, so he shies away from guilds and zone chat, and depends on word of mouth to promote his digital business.

Sarah is the leader of a trade/social guild, parses 100k+ DPS, and has unlimited funds. Her home decorating skills are average, but she longs for the spotlight, strives to be at the top of the recommended housing tours list, and wants to make a killing as a semi-professional house decorator. Sarah sends out guild mails urging everyone to vote for her, offers to pay for votes in zone chat, and puts the word out on all social media platforms. Her marketing campaign is a force to be reckoned with, her house is always the first one you see in the activity finder, and soon everybody wants to have a house they can proudly say was decorated by her. Of course, the creations aren't very good... but hey... not everyone can claim they overpaid for an original Sarah 'masterpiece,' now, can they?

This is a good example of how unrealistic and overexaggerated it is that large numbers of houses will get Recommended falsely, since that's a lot of work for no reward. I also don't see why George would care that someone else went to a lot of effort just to get their house temporarily listed on Recommended. It doesn't hurt him in any way? It's not a competition, so there can't really be unfairness.

On that note, it's also a good reminder of why Recommended definitely shouldn't be seen as like a contest that represents the best houses--especially because that's completely subjective. A few groups might visit certain houses at random, or based on the name, and that would arbitrarily boost some houses up. I don't see the issue.

I'm pretty sure a few guilds having a "House Tour" night will counteract sooo much work that one vote-spammer can do lol. This is all a good reason for people to support little houses by voting themselves or running group tours.

There's also a Browse tab. I found two homes I loved there on PTS, and a bunch I thought weren't my taste. If Recommended delivers cool houses that I like, that's all I'll need to use it sometimes instead of Browse.

I have my own issues with Housing Tours as it is (I want more favorites, house descriptions, more visitors for smaller homes to accommodate Housing Tours, etc). I'm just not sure why Recommended is such a problematic idea for people, especially those who haven't tried it out.

SilverBride

I can just see the huge backlash that will happen the first time someone wins a housing competition with purchased votes. I really hope they reconsider this.

Araneae6537

I don’t think vote purchasing/campaigning is important. Not saying it’s good practice, but I agree with those saying it win’t matter.

I would hate to see the positive collaborative spirit of the community change, but I have been thinking about this, and housing competitions often have great prizes at stake and one or more people rating your build, and yet I have not seen toxic behavior there (I’m sure there are exceptions, such as those who copy-paste builds, and no activity is going to be completely free of toxic people). My point being, the people who are helpful, positive, and courteous even while competing for crowns, gold, exclusive pets, a free house — how would recs that contribute to nothing more than placement in the UI turn us against one another?

I don’t mean to dismiss people’s concerns and empathize with those who have experienced rude or malicious behavior. From what I’m hearing of the system though, Housing Tours should not itself be a cause any more than using Housing Hub, or anything that allows interaction between people. I’m going to check out the system on PTS and would urge those with concerns to as well. Maybe you will have ideas to make it better or, informed by past experience, see potential problems and solutions that may not have been considered.

Kesstryl

I think ZOS confused the demographics of players who enjoy housing with hard mode leader board score pushers. Housing does not need "recommendations", a.k.a votes, to push a competitive mindset on a player demographic that is largely noncompetitive. Even sweaty leaderboard score pushers who enjoy housing are not decorating with a competitive mindset. Housing is a creative activity which means it is relaxing for some and zen for others. Being a creative activity also means that it is highly subjective. We don't want or welcome any kind of competitive mechanic.

Techwolf_Lupindo

When I first heard of this new housing voting system, I was hoping that ZOS was smart enough to rank by trends and not popularity. Meaning once a house goes to the top, slowly drops out and may never return. But that might have it own problems.

Jaraal

Araneae6537 wrote: »

I don’t think vote purchasing/campaigning is important. Not saying it’s good practice, but I agree with those saying it win’t matter.

Being the Emperor is not important, either. But you'd be surprised what some people are willing to go through or how much they will spend to get it. And I'd bet there are a lot more people that would rather be at the top of a housing list than would realistically strive to be Emperor.

Techwolf_Lupindo wrote: »

When I first heard of this new housing voting system, I was hoping that ZOS was smart enough to rank by trends and not popularity. Meaning once a house goes to the top, slowly drops out and may never return. But that might have it own problems.

That's somewhat of a moot point, as there are over 100 houses currently in the game. If your top house drops out, it might be time to campaign the next one up to take it's place. Housing is the true end game for many. Some folks have spent thousands of real dollars on their creations. I wouldn't underestimate what some players will do to be considered the best.

Jaraal

Kesstryl wrote: »

I think ZOS confused the demographics of players who enjoy housing with hard mode leader board score pushers. Housing does not need "recommendations", a.k.a votes, to push a competitive mindset on a player demographic that is largely noncompetitive. Even sweaty leaderboard score pushers who enjoy housing are not decorating with a competitive mindset. Housing is a creative activity which means it is relaxing for some and zen for others. Being a creative activity also means that it is highly subjective. We don't want or welcome any kind of competitive mechanic.

And yet there are many housing guilds who host contests with 100-200+ million gold prizes, and ZOS themselves host housing competitions with significant prizes.

If you think housing enthusiasts are not competitive, and that there are no rewards for your creativity.... well, others may disagree with you.

Gaebriel0410

In all honesty, I think that if people go through all the effort of convincing as many people as possible to arrange a top spot on something as trivial as the housing recommendations list, they probably deserve that spot, and I gotta say, well played.

Though I also don't get why it even matters, it's just a thumbnail on a group finder screen. I think the problem is not really the system, but the whole obsession to be publically liked for.. I guess internet points?

If abused, basically anything can be used to be toxic in some way, since people are inventive and will always find a way.
Of course it is easier said than done but I think the best way to combat toxicity comes from within, by just not always seeking the virtual approval of others.

Casdha

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i was actually potentially going to list all of my houses so people could use them for free fast travel if they wanted, even though some 95% of the houses are not decorated lol

Unless things have changed I believe this only works for a house you own.

I believe it would be like previewing a home from the store where if you walk out the door you return to where you started and not the zone the house is in.

I guess this need to be checked out on PTS.

agelonestar

I couldn't disagree more.

It sounds like a fun way of showing off your home / homes and for those who are really into housing, it will be a new way of showing off your hard work.

Participation is not mandatory, so if you don't like the idea of criticism, don't take part.

This happens all the time in guild competitions and beyond, so "showing off your home" is obviously reasonably popular. Personally I can't wait to show off Sunfire's Sect Guild House and my Palace in Hew's Bane.

tomofhyrule

Casdha wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i was actually potentially going to list all of my houses so people could use them for free fast travel if they wanted, even though some 95% of the houses are not decorated lol

Unless things have changed I believe this only works for a house you own.

I believe it would be like previewing a home from the store where if you walk out the door you return to where you started and not the zone the house is in.

I guess this need to be checked out on PTS.

I did check it out, and you do get to port to the outside of the house. At least currently on 10.1.0.

The PTS also has no achievements for getting one of your own houses recommended. The new achievements are for recommending a house yourself, and also for visiting a house which has been recommended by others. Otherwise, the 'recommendation' system feels like and carries as much weight as 'likes' on social media.
...and that's about how important they are. Yes, some people live and die by that number. Others ignore it because we ignore all social media.

TaSheen

Casdha wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i was actually potentially going to list all of my houses so people could use them for free fast travel if they wanted, even though some 95% of the houses are not decorated lol

Unless things have changed I believe this only works for a house you own.

I believe it would be like previewing a home from the store where if you walk out the door you return to where you started and not the zone the house is in.

I guess this need to be checked out on PTS.

If you are a Beam Me Up member (guilds mostly for teleporting) and members have their houses listed then you can use them that way, yes.

Necrotech_Master

Casdha wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i was actually potentially going to list all of my houses so people could use them for free fast travel if they wanted, even though some 95% of the houses are not decorated lol

Unless things have changed I believe this only works for a house you own.

I believe it would be like previewing a home from the store where if you walk out the door you return to where you started and not the zone the house is in.

I guess this need to be checked out on PTS.

i assume it would work like port to friends house, where you can port to any house of a player, it ports you inside then you can walk outside

previewing a house in the crown store is entirely different, as it is a completely solo instance (though you can still see zone chat from other players previewing the same house, you dont see any other players)

I_killed_Vivec

Casdha wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Casdha wrote: »

A question with perspective




Why did ZOS see fit to change the way the forums themselves got feedback,,,, Anyone remember?

I'll see your 5 and raise ya

Impressive - lol'ed out before the game had even launched! It took me until January 2015 to reach 25 lols, but I wasn't alone...

spartaxoxo

Look at my field of LOLs. And see how it is barren. Nary a guffaw or even a chuckle. Partially because I joined too late . Partially because I'm not funny. 🤣

peacenote

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Look at my field of LOLs. And see how it is barren. Nary a guffaw or even a chuckle. Partially because I joined too late . Partially because I'm not funny. 🤣

Fwiw, this post made me laugh. 🤣

For the topic at hand, I am confused about the concerns but I may be too much on the outskirts of the housing community. I've purposely carefully decorated two houses. I LOVE seeing other houses featured on the forums and whatnot. They are all better than mine.

I might list one of my houses, the one I am proud of, but I don't expect it to get votes and don't care if others lobby for votes. If I ever paid someone to decorate, it would be based on a decorating style I like, regardless of whether their houses are popular or not.

I look at the recommendation list as just a way to maybe find houses I haven't seen that are fun to visit, but if a house stays on top I probably wouldn't go to it multiple times.

So... I don't get it. I'm trying but the stories don't resonate with me, although I respect the opinions of course. A recommendation list feels like something I would look at very rarely, only when I feel like touring houses for inspiration. Even if it was abused it would in no way influence my actual opinions of the designers. I make up my own mind!

SpiritKitten

I am more concerned with the 'report' feature that someone said has been added on PTS? So I can clearly forsee you *** someone off or reject their advances or whatnot and then they go falsely report your house for something offensive in the build, and then what happens? An actual employee goes inside your house and looks around? I doubt it. What is the next step for the person whose house got reported?

JavaRen

How could you even do something reportable in housing?

DP99

I just want people to visit my houses for visitor achievements. I couldn't care less about any kind of competition. All of my houses are fairly basic anyway, but I do think that they all look nice and there is some rhyme and reason. I'm not looking to really impress anyone but myself though.

SpiritKitten

JavaRen wrote: »

How could you even do something reportable in housing?

I can think of a few things but will refrain from mentioning them. However, all the 'sinister' furnishings like torture devices, gore, I can't see how that could be deemed reportable but I bet some people do report those builds.

aetherial_heavenn

I explained in detail the concerns, as have others, repeatedly. The issue is this
quotes from the ZoS ESO promotion page.

so if you’re interested in seeing all sorts of homes or in viewing the most popular creations, you can browse the top player homes in the Recommended tab of Home Tours. Whatever way you search, friends and guildmates will be specially tagged in the feed for easy recognition.

Your own home may be featured as a recommended home in the Activity Finder if it becomes popular enough!

and here's the thread about copying

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/660440/creation-copying-without-permission-using-eht#latest


The activity finder promotion being based on easy to manipulate recommendations, and the fact players will use this part to sell house builds that may not even be original is the reason for concern. NOT "hurt feelings".

peacenote

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Look at my field of LOLs. And see how it is barren. Nary a guffaw or even a chuckle. Partially because I joined too late . Partially because I'm not funny. 🤣

Fwiw, this post made me laugh. 🤣

For the topic at hand, I am confused about the concerns but I may be too much on the outskirts of the housing community. I've purposely carefully decorated two houses. I LOVE seeing other houses featured on the forums and whatnot. They are all better than mine.

I might list one of my houses, the one I am proud of, but I don't expect it to get votes and don't care if others lobby for votes. If I ever paid someone to decorate, it would be based on a decorating style I like, regardless of whether their houses are popular or not.

I look at the recommendation list as just a way to maybe find houses I haven't seen that are fun to visit, but if a house stays on top I probably wouldn't go to it multiple times.

So... I don't get it. I'm trying but the stories don't resonate with me, although I respect the opinions of course. A recommendation list feels like something I would look at very rarely, only when I feel like touring houses for inspiration. Even if it was abused it would in no way influence my actual opinions of the designers. I make up my own mind!

aetherial_heavenn wrote: »

I explained in detail the concerns, as have others, repeatedly. The issue is this
quotes from the ZoS ESO promotion page.

so if you’re interested in seeing all sorts of homes or in viewing the most popular creations, you can browse the top player homes in the Recommended tab of Home Tours. Whatever way you search, friends and guildmates will be specially tagged in the feed for easy recognition.

Your own home may be featured as a recommended home in the Activity Finder if it becomes popular enough!

and here's the thread about copying

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/660440/creation-copying-without-permission-using-eht#latest


The activity finder promotion being based on easy to manipulate recommendations, and the fact players will use this part to sell house builds that may not even be original is the reason for concern. NOT "hurt feelings".

Yes, the copying thing is a problem and I don't like it. But this seems like a mod problem, rather than an issue with the new functionality. I love mods, and I'm glad I play on PC, but native game functionality shouldn't be withheld because a mod enables it to be used negatively. Agree that it's an issue though.

Assuming for a moment that copying might be addressed another way (bans? api mod modification by ZOS, something), what does it matter if the top recommended homes are the result of people who advertised/lobbied for votes over those who haven't? Really trying to understand why it matters. For example, certain streamers might be more well known and therefore people find their builds faster. They may not be the best builds. As a result, I may not use them, and I use that popularity as ONE factor to consider if I try out a build myself. I don't automatically use it because it is "recommended." Don't members of the housing community also consider multiple factors when they make decisions?

Honestly I would be fine if they removed the recommendation feature or if they kept it. I'm not trying to argue. I just don't get why the potential for "top houses" or "best builders" to end up being "most popular" as opposed to "most talented" matters that much. Especially since it is all subjective, and is splitting hairs as to what on the spectrum of subjective should be allowed. It's no different than any other part of life?

Kesstryl

Jaraal wrote: »

Kesstryl wrote: »

I think ZOS confused the demographics of players who enjoy housing with hard mode leader board score pushers. Housing does not need "recommendations", a.k.a votes, to push a competitive mindset on a player demographic that is largely noncompetitive. Even sweaty leaderboard score pushers who enjoy housing are not decorating with a competitive mindset. Housing is a creative activity which means it is relaxing for some and zen for others. Being a creative activity also means that it is highly subjective. We don't want or welcome any kind of competitive mechanic.

And yet there are many housing guilds who host contests with 100-200+ million gold prizes, and ZOS themselves host housing competitions with significant prizes.

If you think housing enthusiasts are not competitive, and that there are no rewards for your creativity.... well, others may disagree with you.

Yes, and participation in those is optional. ZOS is making a semi leaderboard for housing which affects the entire housing community and can be abused. What happens when the most recommended homes get in the top votes and stay there because they have so many recommendations that newer players or newer decorations have no chance of being displayed? How would ZOS address people who pay for votes and go on massive marketing campaigns to keep their homes constantly displayed? How will the average player compete with popular content creators who will youtube their homes and have masses of people visit their homes and upvote them?