Please do NOT include the vote/recommend aspect to Home Tours

WolfCombatPet · July 6

I played an MMO once that introduced voting to housing.

It ended up with:
- people feeling hurt their home was not voted up
- homes being used as advertisements for in game services, like dungeon or XP runs
- people pity-voting homes that they did not really think should be recommended
- guild events to vote up the GM's girlfriend's house

Players STOPPED touring homes as events because things were always awkward when someone's house simply wasn't liked.

Situations arose where you didn't upvote their house, so now that player won't upvote yours.
Or the other way around, where it became more of a popularity contest than about how many people actually liked a build.

Imagine the awkwardness of trying to come up with something to say when you don't like someone's build *enough* to be a recommendation to other players.

Instead of voting/recommending, simply have Home Tours keep track of which homes your account has already visited. When you want to explore more homes, those should not show up.
Instead, a history of homes we have visited and a favorites list would be useful.

Players naturally recommend homes to others.

Please take into account all the negative that another MMO already experienced with introducing voting to housing.
Ask people who watched housing guilds fall apart due to how easily voting can result in drama and tensions.

I currently love going to see people's homes. It's one of my favorite things to do. I especially love getting tours by the creator.
But if a voting aspect is introduced, I would never do this again. I don't want to have to come up with the perfect words to not hurt someone's feelings when I don't upvote them. That or we might as well start admitting that the whole recommendation system is simply going to be a popularity contest and with it all the drama that ensues.

Devs ask for feedback. So here it is from a player who saw a housing community fall apart when a game introduced voting.

It would be less controversial if we were allowed to publicly vote on a DPS performance in a dungeon. And every time that player logged in, they would see the number of people who approved of them. A constant reminder of how many people liked and disliked their gameplay.

If you can foresee the drama in that (and it would at least be backed up by numerical data), then why not foresee the drama in voting someone's subjective artwork?

Idelise · July 6

I will honestly opt out and turn it off on all my houses to not participate... the artist community can be toxic enough over popularity contests already (I recall even one Discord community lead did purposefully give the title of an 'Arbiter of Art/Writing/Housing' to artists he was friends/had relationship with - so they appeared on top of the list in the thousands-wide community... which of course meant more attention came to them, more commissions etc. - people were outraged especially since like idk Arbiter of Writing didn't even make a single post on the whole community lol). I imagine something similar happening with housing/in housing guilds etc. (as you said events to upvote GM gf's house etc.). It's an idea to encourage toxicity, nothing more.
RPers also won't be using it I imagine - having randoms crash in your house and disrupt events is not something many would want.

TDVM · July 6

I agree with not putting this into the game, it would be a big disappointment(and already is) and the worst update for housing

DenverRalphy · July 6

Players are limited to how many recomendations they can cast each week.

If a player doesn't have the fortitude to stand up to perceived peer pressure on their own merit, they can always just shrug and say "no recomendations left, sorry".

LikiLoki · July 6

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Players are limited to how many recomendations they can cast each week.

If a player doesn't have the fortitude to stand up to perceived peer pressure on their own merit, they can always just shrug and say "no recomendations left, sorry".

If there are a limited number of them, then this will be an incentive to sell them. What could be easier than buying the popularity of your home

DenverRalphy · July 6

LikiLoki wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Players are limited to how many recomendations they can cast each week.

If a player doesn't have the fortitude to stand up to perceived peer pressure on their own merit, they can always just shrug and say "no recomendations left, sorry".

If there are a limited number of them, then this will be an incentive to sell them. What could be easier than buying the popularity of your home

And who really cares?

It's not like there's a leaderboard where placing at the top each week/month earns a prize. Housing doesn't earn rewards for increased traffic coming and going through the front door. And if as a visitor you decide you find a particularly highly recommended home to be stinker.. well it's not like you spent 2 hours preppring for a Trial that gets wiped 10 minutes after entering. You just shrug and move on.

House designers who consistently build spectacular homes will get all the recommendations they need, and won't miss out on any prestige.

Casdha · July 6

Waiting for this to get moved to housing to reduce the viewing traffic.

Now,,,,,

I thought of this as a possibility which is why if I ever list a home it will be my sleek creek house, why? because it is my dump house. It is close to a wayshrine and it is where I dump all of my furnishings that I don't want to destroy in case I find a use for them later. Once it is full I will move to another.

I bought several strategic (mostly cheep) homes just to have free travel to zones (at least one in each) so a new character immediately has access to each zone (works even better after they added outside arrival). I will never use them so I thought why not make them furnishing banks.

Thysbe · July 6

DenverRalphy wrote: »

It's not like there's a leaderboard where placing at the top each week/month earns a prize.

I disagree - it is a leaderbaord since you can rank the houses by recommendation (literally nobody cares about the leaderboard prizes its all about the ranking)

so a competitive aspect is forced into a rather non-competitive and more collaborative community, which will most likely shy away quite a lot of players who dont want to get the daily dissapointment of not not getting any "unforced" recommendations for the hours they put in

vsrs_au · July 6

Nothing good ever results from adding a voting / recommendation system into a social media platform, and ESO housing is basically one of those. This won't end well.

liliub17_ESO · July 6

Nope. Taking an in-game activity - housing - and adding such a feature as a 'leaderboard' or 'vote up/down' makes NO SENSE. Why?

The FAR better, more positive, QoL change would be simply to allow people to openly visit or not - as allowed by the home's owner via permissions - without the need for a mod. Period. If it's competition the player wants, there are always fun ones hosted by the community they could enter. Heck, even I have dipped my toes in that pond!

There are some mind-blowing builds out there. There are also more humble builds which are just as spectacular, just less showy. My own builds fall on the humble end of things.

Syldras · July 6

WolfCombatPet wrote: »

Imagine the awkwardness of trying to come up with something to say when you don't like someone's build *enough* to be a recommendation to other players.

"It's not my personal taste."
"Problem" solved.

DenverRalphy · July 6

Thysbe wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

It's not like there's a leaderboard where placing at the top each week/month earns a prize.

I disagree - it is a leaderbaord since you can rank the houses by recommendation (literally nobody cares about the leaderboard prizes its all about the ranking)

so a competitive aspect is forced into a rather non-competitive and more collaborative community, which will most likely shy away quite a lot of players who dont want to get the daily dissapointment of not not getting any "unforced" recommendations for the hours they put in

Nope. You can't rank the houses by recommendation. You can sort the houses by number of recommendations. But it's not an indication of a ranking. Homes with a lot of recommendations aren't "declared" to be the best. If a player thinks that's what it means, then that's on the player. Because anybody that properly comprehends what it actually is, wouldn't give it a second thought.

All recommendations mean is that somebody (another player) said "Hey, I thought this was worth checking out". That's it. Nothing more.

Araneae6537 · July 6

Will players know how many recommendations they have rather than it purely used for features?

N00BxV1 · July 6

Now Selling Housing Recommendations!!!

For the low price of only 10 Columbine, you can purchase my vote of either a YES or NO -- for the Home of your choice!!!

This post is satire so please don't be offended.

But if someone still wishes to purchase my service then the offer is on the table.

IrelandTweaky · July 6

One more vote for... not having votes. Uh...

But seriously. Social media 'contests' where people vote on things often fails to display the actual merit of the thing; rather, it displays the marketing prowess of the whoever 'wins'. I don't want the stress of voting for something that has been, up until this point, pretty wholesome.

ArchangelIsraphel · July 6

In all honesty, I doubt you will even be able to keep live tabs on who did and did not upvote the home. It didn't seem like a very nuanced system from what I saw in the preview.

In any case- a simple "It wasn't my style." Or something along those lines is all that needs to be said. But in truth, you don't have to say anything at all to a stranger on the internet. You don't owe them an explanation, and you especially don't owe them an apology, for having your own individual tastes.

There's a certain point where you need to withdraw from feeling responsible for other peoples emotions and reactions online. If someone has made up votes that important to them, it's an emotional burden they've lain on themselves. You don't need to shoulder it or fix their feelings.

Do they feel dissapointed? Yes, some likely will. Allow them to feel that. It's okay to let other humans deal with their own emotions without compromising your own integrity in the process.

That may sound harsh-but it isn't. It's important to your own mental health to withdraw from the burden of pleasing others online to the detriment of your own comfort and stylistic choices.

You don't have to set yourself on fire to keep other people warm.

SilverBride · July 6

I will just stick with the EHT Community and list my houses there. I will not use this new system unless they remove rating.

AlienSlof · July 6

Maybe it's because I'm old and grey now, but I just don't care about ratings either way any more. I can count on one hand the times I've even looked at any leaderboard. I just don't care!

My houses are decorated to my own spec and I don't need anyone's rating or vote to justify it. I like what I like! My main reservation with it is people being mean for the sake of it, but again, that is on them, not me.

I don't mind the tour part so much as I like looking at houses in game, just as I enjoy looking at gardens I pass while walking my dog - sometimes I get interesting inspiration from them for my own garden. Even better if I see the owner there and they can tell me what a particular interesting plant is!

I was hoping for more QoL stuff that has been requested for years, so this update is rather disappointing overall.

LunaFlora · July 6

SilverBride wrote: »

I will just stick with the EHT Community and list my houses there. I will not use this new system unless they remove rating.

it is possible that it'll get removed from eht as other eht features also got removed when they were added to the base game.
like after update 37 released these things were removed:
- Chat Links to Houses
- Guest Arrival and Departure Notifications
- House Name and Owner Notification upon arrival to a house
- Housing Editor "Place" and "Retrieve" list filters
- Identify Furniture
- Reset Target Dummy
- Tab Targeting

SilverBride · July 6

LunaFlora wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I will just stick with the EHT Community and list my houses there. I will not use this new system unless they remove rating.

it is possible that it'll get removed from eht as other eht features also got removed when they were added to the base game.
like after update 37 released these things were removed:
- Chat Links to Houses
- Guest Arrival and Departure Notifications
- House Name and Owner Notification upon arrival to a house
- Housing Editor "Place" and "Retrieve" list filters
- Identify Furniture
- Reset Target Dummy
- Tab Targeting

I hope not but if it does get removed then I just won't share my houses. Why implement a rating system that is so easily manipulated and has such a high potential for abuse?

I just hope this is optional because I love all of my builds and I won't open myself up to that.

Araneae6537 · July 6

SilverBride wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I will just stick with the EHT Community and list my houses there. I will not use this new system unless they remove rating.

it is possible that it'll get removed from eht as other eht features also got removed when they were added to the base game.
like after update 37 released these things were removed:
- Chat Links to Houses
- Guest Arrival and Departure Notifications
- House Name and Owner Notification upon arrival to a house
- Housing Editor "Place" and "Retrieve" list filters
- Identify Furniture
- Reset Target Dummy
- Tab Targeting

I hope not but if it does get removed then I just won't share my houses. Why implement a rating system that is so easily manipulated and has such a high potential for abuse?

I just hope this is optional because I love all of my builds and I won't open myself up to that.

Why would you not list your build if ZOS keeps the recommendation system? If it is indeed manipulated with bought votes, then just ignore it? I don’t know whether we’ll see how many recs any house, including our own, has received, or if it will just be used by the system to choose the featured selection, but could you not ignore it? And know any recs you do receive are genuine? Maybe there’s aspects I’m not thinking of and I’m not in favor of the rec system, but was thinking it would be no wore than useless?

SilverBride · July 6

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Why would you not list your build if ZOS keeps the recommendation system? If it is indeed manipulated with bought votes, then just ignore it?

I don't just ignore things I believe are wrong. I will not participate in a system that has such a high potential for manipulation and abuse.

Araneae6537 · July 6

SilverBride wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Why would you not list your build if ZOS keeps the recommendation system? If it is indeed manipulated with bought votes, then just ignore it?

I don't just ignore things I believe are wrong. I will not participate in a system that has such a high potential for manipulation and abuse.

That’s not very informative… Obviously I wasn’t suggesting you participate in buying or selling recs, but rather asking why you would not participate in showing your houses at all. How do recs matter enough to make you want to avoid the system entirely? That is what I would like to understand.

SilverBride · July 6

Araneae6537 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Why would you not list your build if ZOS keeps the recommendation system? If it is indeed manipulated with bought votes, then just ignore it?

I don't just ignore things I believe are wrong. I will not participate in a system that has such a high potential for manipulation and abuse.

That’s not very informative… Obviously I wasn’t suggesting you participate in buying or selling recs, but rather asking why you would not participate in showing your houses at all. How to recs matter enough to make you want to avoid the system entirely? That is what I would like to understand.

Because I think it's a very bad idea and I refuse to be part of it. No further explanation is needed.

Alinhbo_Tyaka · July 6

Araneae6537 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Why would you not list your build if ZOS keeps the recommendation system? If it is indeed manipulated with bought votes, then just ignore it?

I don't just ignore things I believe are wrong. I will not participate in a system that has such a high potential for manipulation and abuse.

That’s not very informative… Obviously I wasn’t suggesting you participate in buying or selling recs, but rather asking why you would not participate in showing your houses at all. How to recs matter enough to make you want to avoid the system entirely? That is what I would like to understand.

One problem that other games have seen with housing ranking is players being ganged up on for not leaving likes at a house they are visiting. Another is ranking tends to create cliques where players manipulate the rankings in the favor of other players in their circle. Neither is good for the housing community and will tend to bring some toxicity that doesn't exist today or where it does exist it is not surfaced due to a lack of a mechanism to do so.

HazelRose · July 6

I didn't listen to the entire stream so maybe I'm missing some details. But why can't ZOS keep the ability to recommend houses but hide the number of recommendations from the player?

I agree that housing doesn't need a leaderboard, and having a leaderboard will lead to a more toxic environment. But why does the entire recommended houses feature need to be removed? Why isn't hiding the details on upvotes, who liked it, etc enough?

LunaFlora · July 6

there are no upvotes.
you can Favourite a home to revisit it.
and if enough people recommend a home it gets put in the recommended tab.

i revisited the stream and:
the only number shown for the homes is the amount of furnishings

https://www.twitch.tv/bethesda/v/2188253758?sr=a&t=1107s

Araneae6537 · July 6

I remain ambivalent. Like many here, I expect that many will buy recommendations so that the features do not accomplish the ideals ZOS intends, but that seems to me no worse than useless. We can use the system to find houses and real recommendations can still be word of mouth as they are now.

SilverBride wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Why would you not list your build if ZOS keeps the recommendation system? If it is indeed manipulated with bought votes, then just ignore it?

I don't just ignore things I believe are wrong. I will not participate in a system that has such a high potential for manipulation and abuse.

That’s not very informative… Obviously I wasn’t suggesting you participate in buying or selling recs, but rather asking why you would not participate in showing your houses at all. How to recs matter enough to make you want to avoid the system entirely? That is what I would like to understand.

Because I think it's a very bad idea and I refuse to be part of it. No further explanation is needed.

No, only needed if you want others to understand and potentially support your position, but nevermind.

TaSheen · July 6

I've never been interested in having people "visit" (yes, I'm like that IRL too). I do housing for my characters (therefore me) and I'm just not involved in allowing others to access my homes.

I'm not interactive in-game with anyone in any way.... and that includes housing.

SilverBride · July 6

Araneae6537 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Because I think it's a very bad idea and I refuse to be part of it. No further explanation is needed.

No, only needed if you want others to understand and potentially support your position, but nevermind.

I don't need others to support my position to not participate. I will do what I feel is right for me.

spartaxoxo · July 6

SilverBride wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Because I think it's a very bad idea and I refuse to be part of it. No further explanation is needed.

No, only needed if you want others to understand and potentially support your position, but nevermind.

I don't need others to support my position to not participate. I will do what I feel is right for me.

Well, yeah. But maybe your feedback can help the developers to change the way it works before it releases. I don't think the point in the question is to convince you to participate. It's to better understand and potentially support your position. I think your voice, and everyone else's who feels this feature might be abusive, could potentially be important to any changes that make it less vulnerable to manipulation and abuse.

But if you don't want to share, obviously you don't have to. That's perfectly okay!