Please stop putting mythic leads in Trials.

Dragonnord

Shara_Wynn wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

Shara_Wynn wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

Shara_Wynn wrote: »

@Dragonnord You can't say that someone is wrong, just because you disagree with them. It is not for you tell anyone else, how to experience a game, an event, the world. You are entitled to your opinion but so are other players. If another player doesn't like doing trials, or are in some way intimidated by them, then they don't like doing trials and that's ok. You can disagree with them but that doesn't make them wrong.

We all need to remember that we are all individuals. What is easy for you, isn't necessarily so easy for others.

I have had someone on these forums tell me that nHoF was as easy as FG1 and that it was impossible to wipe in it (their lived experience). Well, I did nHoF with a PUG and it wiped three times on the final boss (my lived experience).

I'm sorry but I don't agree with you. They are wrong, yes. If they find it difficult that doesn't mean it is difficult. With ALL DUE RESPECT, they are then below the line of skill needed to complete an easy content as an old normal trial is.

If I say the sun is small because I see it very small, if I say it's green because to my eyes it looks green, if I say its rays are cold becasue I fell them cold on my skin, it doesn't matter, the sun is big, yellow and hot, so I'm wrong regardless how I see it and feel it.
 
If I put 4 little kids to complete Fungal Grotto 1 they will say "Oh! Mommy! This is so difficult!". And Fungal Grotto is not difficult, regardless what the kids say.

Go ask in zone chat: "Hey guys! Is Fungal Grott 1 difficult?" If you get 100 responses, I'm sure the 100 will be that it is not, and what are you going to say? The same to me that "You can't say Fungal Grotto 1 is difficult because for you it's easy"?

For me, things have a general, known and set level of difficulty, regardless personal opinions and personal skill levels.
 

Again that is your opinion. Everything you have just said. Opinion. None of it is fact. And no they are not wrong. There is no way that you can objectively know how difficult another finds something that you find easy because that is an entirely subjective experience. If someone finds something difficult, then it is difficult, for them and it doesn't really matter if you find it easy, as you are not them.

Funny that what I say is wrong but at the same time you say "No, they are not wrong". So I can say they are wrong and it's not valid but you can tell me that I'm wrong and that they are not wrong and it's valid.

I never said you were wrong, I said that they weren't wrong and that your opinion doesn't constitute a fact.

Dragonnord wrote: »

Following your logic then, I can tell you that everything you are saying to me is wrong.

Not sure you are following any logic there because the general point of what I said was that no one can say anyone is wrong about a subjective experience. But you are as entitled to air a subjective opinion as the next person (that still doesn't make it an object fact).

Dragonnord wrote: »

So Shara, what you are telling me is completely wrong, because is subjetcive blah, blah, blah.

There you are.

No that is not what I am telling you.

Dragonnord wrote: »

By the way, please do not derail the thread anymore, because that's what is happening here with you caring so much for what I say.
 

Also I wasn't trying to derail the thread. Initially I was agreeing with the original poster that finding a trial group in Craglorn or via the Group Finder outside of peak times is difficult and sometimes nigh on impossible. I was also agreeing with another poster that the bar has been raised. This is very much the case as the "Savior of..." achievement has never been locked behind a trial before.

You (and others) made the point about how easy you (and they) thought nHoF is. I disagreed with you and made the counter point that it is not for you to tell others how to feel. If you don't think that it is difficult, but others do, that doesn't make you right and them wrong, it just means that you both have different experiences of the content.

You (and others) are also of the opinion, that it is quite easy to get 11 other people together for a trial group. However, in my experience, during the times I play, I do not find that to be the case.

As such I agree with the OP in that I also wish that ZOS would stop putting mythic leads behind trials as many will struggle to obtain those leads, for a variety of reasons I am sure. And yes, that is also just my opinion.

You still don't understand that it doesn't matter what you say and what your experience is.

Fungal Grotto 1 is easy. Period. If you find it difficult is your problem and doesn't change the fact that Fungal Grotto 1 is still easy.

Again, if a 12 years old kid says Fungal Grotto 1 is the most ultra hard nightmare content he has played in his short gaming life, that means nothing. Fungal Grotto is easy.

Otherwise, the different type of contents could never be labeled as easy, medium, hard, etc.

Imagine when you install a game and the game lets you select the difficulty level: EASY, NORMAL, HARD, NIGHTMARE.

What are you going to tell the company? "Hey! I selected easy and died a lot and find it very difficult. You lied to me company! That's not easy! It's super difficult! I will sue you!"?

Again, what you say, feel or experience doesn't change the fact that some content has a standard, set or fixed level of difficulty.
 

spartaxoxo

Dragonnord wrote: »

Again, what you say, feel or experience doesn't change the fact that some content has a standard, set or fixed level of difficulty.
 

Difficulty is subjective. It is not a hard fact. If a kid thinks Fungal Grotto is hard, then it is, for the kid. Developers don't set difficulty because it's an objective fact. They set difficulty levels like easy, medium, hard because their play data or design experience tells them that most people will feel that way about it. But many people sharing an opinion, does not make that opinion a fact.

code65536

sarahthes wrote: »

Normal HoF is about the same difficulty level as normal FG1, taking into account it's scaled for 12 players.

It can be beaten with far, far fewer than the intended number of party members, mechanics can be ignored with as few as half the number of intended party members...

Yeah. They're on par.

FG1 is difficult for new players the first time they do it too, if grouped with other people who don't know what they're doing. That doesn't mean it's objectively difficult though.

I can solo nFG1 in 4 minutes. I can even solo vFG1 with HM scroll in a bit over 10 minutes (I did that a few too many times back when the Krag'h mask was dropping).

I cannot solo nHoF in any amount of time, and I expect it would be a struggle to 3-man it (if you "scaled it" from 1-in-4 to 3-in-12).

There are actual mechanics--including wipe mechanics--in nHoF that are bypassed only because you kill the boss before it happens. No such mechanics exist in any form in either nFG1 or vFG1.

To compare nHoF to nFG1 is hyperbolic to the point of ridicule. While I have been making the case in this thread that nHoF, as a normal trial, is accessible and easy, it doesn't help for people to over-exaggerate that in such a transparent way.

sarahthes

code65536 wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

Normal HoF is about the same difficulty level as normal FG1, taking into account it's scaled for 12 players.

It can be beaten with far, far fewer than the intended number of party members, mechanics can be ignored with as few as half the number of intended party members...

Yeah. They're on par.

FG1 is difficult for new players the first time they do it too, if grouped with other people who don't know what they're doing. That doesn't mean it's objectively difficult though.

I can solo nFG1 in 4 minutes. I can even solo vFG1 with HM scroll in a bit over 10 minutes (I did that a few too many times back when the Krag'h mask was dropping).

I cannot solo nHoF in any amount of time, and I expect it would be a struggle to 3-man it (if you "scaled it" from 1-in-4 to 3-in-12).

There are actual mechanics--including wipe mechanics--in nHoF that are bypassed only because you kill the boss before it happens. No such mechanics exist in any form in either nFG1 or vFG1.

To compare nHoF to nFG1 is hyperbolic to the point of ridicule. While I have been making the case in this thread that nHoF, as a normal trial, is accessible and easy, it doesn't help for people to over-exaggerate that in such a transparent way.

You can clear nhof easily, skipping mechanics, with 1/3 to 1/2 of the suggested group size. Which is why I compared it to fungal grotto.

In any case, I think the main point is - in the time people have spent arguing in this thread, they could have posted countless nhof runs in group finder, gotten the lead, and finished with it.

Instead, they're choosing to argue.

ToRelax

code65536 wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

Normal HoF is about the same difficulty level as normal FG1, taking into account it's scaled for 12 players.

It can be beaten with far, far fewer than the intended number of party members, mechanics can be ignored with as few as half the number of intended party members...

Yeah. They're on par.

FG1 is difficult for new players the first time they do it too, if grouped with other people who don't know what they're doing. That doesn't mean it's objectively difficult though.

I can solo nFG1 in 4 minutes. I can even solo vFG1 with HM scroll in a bit over 10 minutes (I did that a few too many times back when the Krag'h mask was dropping).

I cannot solo nHoF in any amount of time, and I expect it would be a struggle to 3-man it (if you "scaled it" from 1-in-4 to 3-in-12).

There are actual mechanics--including wipe mechanics--in nHoF that are bypassed only because you kill the boss before it happens. No such mechanics exist in any form in either nFG1 or vFG1.

To compare nHoF to nFG1 is hyperbolic to the point of ridicule. While I have been making the case in this thread that nHoF, as a normal trial, is accessible and easy, it doesn't help for people to over-exaggerate that in such a transparent way.

^ This, which is why I don't like leads in trials. They force grouping much more than most dungeons, regardless of how easy it is with 12 people.

Elsonso

code65536 wrote: »

To compare nHoF to nFG1 is hyperbolic to the point of ridicule. While I have been making the case in this thread that nHoF, as a normal trial, is accessible and easy, it doesn't help for people to over-exaggerate that in such a transparent way.

We also need to make sure that nHoF does not get understated (hyperbolic in the other direction). People in here tend to be the more expert players. They are more likely to be skilled with the game. They likely have DPS that is beyond average, possibly significantly beyond. They likely have gear that is also well beyond average. Seems like HoF is a picnic for expert players, especially the ones that have done it before.

I think that expert players often forget that not everyone is an expert player. Some people aspire to be expert players, and may get there some day. Some people will never be expert players, for whatever reason.

What I am hearing is that 12 non-expert players can complete nHoF, just because 12 players are not really needed for that trial. They will likely wipe at least one time, probably more, and it will probably take them a fair amount of time to complete it. Possibly more than one attempt.

The more expert players that they can get to run with them, the easier it will become. That will be hit-or-miss in a PUG.

I will say one thing, though. The time to get that lead is _right now_, if it is not already past the optimal window. The more time that has passed since content launch, the fewer expert players that will be around doing the once-only content in that release.

Dragonnord

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

Again, what you say, feel or experience doesn't change the fact that some content has a standard, set or fixed level of difficulty.
 

Difficulty is subjective. It is not a hard fact. If a kid thinks Fungal Grotto is hard, then it is, for the kid. Developers don't set difficulty because it's an objective fact. They set difficulty levels like easy, medium, hard because their play data or design experience tells them that most people will feel that way about it. But many people sharing an opinion, does not make that opinion a fact.

I didn't say it's a fact, I didn't say it's objective, I said there's a standard, fixed and set level of difficulty for x type content.

You and Shara know exactly what I mean, you are just confronting for the sake of doing so.
 

StarOfElyon

code65536 wrote: »

Unlike the Sunspire lead, the HoF lead has a guaranteed drop chance (regardless of difficulty) if you've never gotten it before. (From what I've heard, though, that guarantee goes away if you're chasing additional leads for codex.)

And normal is pretty puggable via Group Finder.

(That said, vet HoF is one of the best trials ever, and people really should give vet a whirl.)

Those Dovrah Sabatons were a PAIN to grind. 😂

fizl101

StarOfElyon wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Unlike the Sunspire lead, the HoF lead has a guaranteed drop chance (regardless of difficulty) if you've never gotten it before. (From what I've heard, though, that guarantee goes away if you're chasing additional leads for codex.)

And normal is pretty puggable via Group Finder.

(That said, vet HoF is one of the best trials ever, and people really should give vet a whirl.)

Those Dovrah Sabatons were a PAIN to grind. 😂

The Psijic portal in S.Elsweyr was worse lol

Necrotech_Master

Elsonso wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

To compare nHoF to nFG1 is hyperbolic to the point of ridicule. While I have been making the case in this thread that nHoF, as a normal trial, is accessible and easy, it doesn't help for people to over-exaggerate that in such a transparent way.

We also need to make sure that nHoF does not get understated (hyperbolic in the other direction). People in here tend to be the more expert players. They are more likely to be skilled with the game. They likely have DPS that is beyond average, possibly significantly beyond. They likely have gear that is also well beyond average. Seems like HoF is a picnic for expert players, especially the ones that have done it before.

I think that expert players often forget that not everyone is an expert player. Some people aspire to be expert players, and may get there some day. Some people will never be expert players, for whatever reason.

What I am hearing is that 12 non-expert players can complete nHoF, just because 12 players are not really needed for that trial. They will likely wipe at least one time, probably more, and it will probably take them a fair amount of time to complete it. Possibly more than one attempt.

The more expert players that they can get to run with them, the easier it will become. That will be hit-or-miss in a PUG.

I will say one thing, though. The time to get that lead is _right now_, if it is not already past the optimal window. The more time that has passed since content launch, the fewer expert players that will be around doing the once-only content in that release.

i dont see everyone as an expert player, i know there are people who havent done trials before

1, 2, or even half a group of them wont cause a normal trial to fail in 9/10 instances

if you havent done the trial at all, i think your vastly overestimating the difficulty of a normal trial

i also doubt that it will be hard to get the lead later on, as others have said, if you really wanted the lead, just post a group in the group finder

im personally not going to compare fungal grotto 1 to hof, i think that is a little too much, i would say normal hof is about the difficulty of some normal DLC dungeons that have mechanics that cannot be ignored, when run in a "normal" size group for said content

scalecaller peak DLC dungeon, on normal, with mostly inexperienced players, might actually have some trouble getting past the first boss, and the gargoyle boss, as they both still have dangerous mechanics (if in a high dmg group, again becomes mostly irrelevant), but in a low dmg group, i could see people still getting wiped from petrify orbs on the gargoyle fight if they are all inexperienced (both with the mechanics, and with actual combat)

normal HOF isnt much different than that, you have at least 1 person who knows the trial to explain should something go wrong, and it will have a very high chance of clearing

Shara_Wynn

Dragonnord wrote: »

Shara_Wynn wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

Shara_Wynn wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

Shara_Wynn wrote: »

@Dragonnord You can't say that someone is wrong, just because you disagree with them. It is not for you tell anyone else, how to experience a game, an event, the world. You are entitled to your opinion but so are other players. If another player doesn't like doing trials, or are in some way intimidated by them, then they don't like doing trials and that's ok. You can disagree with them but that doesn't make them wrong.

We all need to remember that we are all individuals. What is easy for you, isn't necessarily so easy for others.

I have had someone on these forums tell me that nHoF was as easy as FG1 and that it was impossible to wipe in it (their lived experience). Well, I did nHoF with a PUG and it wiped three times on the final boss (my lived experience).

I'm sorry but I don't agree with you. They are wrong, yes. If they find it difficult that doesn't mean it is difficult. With ALL DUE RESPECT, they are then below the line of skill needed to complete an easy content as an old normal trial is.

If I say the sun is small because I see it very small, if I say it's green because to my eyes it looks green, if I say its rays are cold becasue I fell them cold on my skin, it doesn't matter, the sun is big, yellow and hot, so I'm wrong regardless how I see it and feel it.
 
If I put 4 little kids to complete Fungal Grotto 1 they will say "Oh! Mommy! This is so difficult!". And Fungal Grotto is not difficult, regardless what the kids say.

Go ask in zone chat: "Hey guys! Is Fungal Grott 1 difficult?" If you get 100 responses, I'm sure the 100 will be that it is not, and what are you going to say? The same to me that "You can't say Fungal Grotto 1 is difficult because for you it's easy"?

For me, things have a general, known and set level of difficulty, regardless personal opinions and personal skill levels.
 

Again that is your opinion. Everything you have just said. Opinion. None of it is fact. And no they are not wrong. There is no way that you can objectively know how difficult another finds something that you find easy because that is an entirely subjective experience. If someone finds something difficult, then it is difficult, for them and it doesn't really matter if you find it easy, as you are not them.

Funny that what I say is wrong but at the same time you say "No, they are not wrong". So I can say they are wrong and it's not valid but you can tell me that I'm wrong and that they are not wrong and it's valid.

I never said you were wrong, I said that they weren't wrong and that your opinion doesn't constitute a fact.

Dragonnord wrote: »

Following your logic then, I can tell you that everything you are saying to me is wrong.

Not sure you are following any logic there because the general point of what I said was that no one can say anyone is wrong about a subjective experience. But you are as entitled to air a subjective opinion as the next person (that still doesn't make it an object fact).

Dragonnord wrote: »

So Shara, what you are telling me is completely wrong, because is subjetcive blah, blah, blah.

There you are.

No that is not what I am telling you.

Dragonnord wrote: »

By the way, please do not derail the thread anymore, because that's what is happening here with you caring so much for what I say.
 

Also I wasn't trying to derail the thread. Initially I was agreeing with the original poster that finding a trial group in Craglorn or via the Group Finder outside of peak times is difficult and sometimes nigh on impossible. I was also agreeing with another poster that the bar has been raised. This is very much the case as the "Savior of..." achievement has never been locked behind a trial before.

You (and others) made the point about how easy you (and they) thought nHoF is. I disagreed with you and made the counter point that it is not for you to tell others how to feel. If you don't think that it is difficult, but others do, that doesn't make you right and them wrong, it just means that you both have different experiences of the content.

You (and others) are also of the opinion, that it is quite easy to get 11 other people together for a trial group. However, in my experience, during the times I play, I do not find that to be the case.

As such I agree with the OP in that I also wish that ZOS would stop putting mythic leads behind trials as many will struggle to obtain those leads, for a variety of reasons I am sure. And yes, that is also just my opinion.

You still don't understand that it doesn't matter what you say and what your experience is.

Fungal Grotto 1 is easy. Period. If you find it difficult is your problem and doesn't change the fact that Fungal Grotto 1 is still easy.

Again, if a 12 years old kid says Fungal Grotto 1 is the most ultra hard nightmare content he has played in his short gaming life, that means nothing. Fungal Grotto is easy.

Otherwise, the different type of contents could never be labeled as easy, medium, hard, etc.

Imagine when you install a game and the game lets you select the difficulty level: EASY, NORMAL, HARD, NIGHTMARE.

What are you going to tell the company? "Hey! I selected easy and died a lot and find it very difficult. You lied to me company! That's not easy! It's super difficult! I will sue you!"?

Again, what you say, feel or experience doesn't change the fact that some content has a standard, set or fixed level of difficulty.
 

...yeah... it's like talking to a brick wall...

The sun is shining. The weather is good. Have a nice one, truly

sarahthes

Shara_Wynn wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

if the avg dps in the game right now is at least 30k on the 6 mil dummy, your group would be doing almost 300k dps which is way over the bar for normal

We don't know what the average DPS is in this game, but if I had to formulate a realistic guess, I would suggest it is closer to 15k than 30k... and that includes the people who are looking at Trials thinking, "wonder if I can do this..."

the only way to really get less than 15k dps is to do absolutely nothing but light attack, or you know, have no weapons or armor equipped

Possibly. It would certainly be interesting to hear from ZOS about the average DPS is across active players. I'd also like to see the distribution. I think there are probably spikes at different places along the spectrum, too.

sarahthes wrote: »

I didn't say it was impossible to wipe. I said it was about the same difficulty as FG1. It's possible to wipe there too.

Just to be clear... I assume we need to note that you are talking about veteran FG1?
I mean, if you are talking normal everyday FG1 that can be solo'ed by a drunken skeever with only three legs, then...?

I'm not talking about vet.

Normal HoF is about the same difficulty level as normal FG1, taking into account it's scaled for 12 players.

It can be beaten with far, far fewer than the intended number of party members, mechanics can be ignored with as few as half the number of intended party members...

Yeah. They're on par.

FG1 is difficult for new players the first time they do it too, if grouped with other people who don't know what they're doing. That doesn't mean it's objectively difficult though.

You cannot solo HoF.

Dragonnord wrote: »

Shara_Wynn wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

Shara_Wynn wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

Shara_Wynn wrote: »

@Dragonnord You can't say that someone is wrong, just because you disagree with them. It is not for you tell anyone else, how to experience a game, an event, the world. You are entitled to your opinion but so are other players. If another player doesn't like doing trials, or are in some way intimidated by them, then they don't like doing trials and that's ok. You can disagree with them but that doesn't make them wrong.

We all need to remember that we are all individuals. What is easy for you, isn't necessarily so easy for others.

I have had someone on these forums tell me that nHoF was as easy as FG1 and that it was impossible to wipe in it (their lived experience). Well, I did nHoF with a PUG and it wiped three times on the final boss (my lived experience).

I'm sorry but I don't agree with you. They are wrong, yes. If they find it difficult that doesn't mean it is difficult. With ALL DUE RESPECT, they are then below the line of skill needed to complete an easy content as an old normal trial is.

If I say the sun is small because I see it very small, if I say it's green because to my eyes it looks green, if I say its rays are cold becasue I fell them cold on my skin, it doesn't matter, the sun is big, yellow and hot, so I'm wrong regardless how I see it and feel it.
 
If I put 4 little kids to complete Fungal Grotto 1 they will say "Oh! Mommy! This is so difficult!". And Fungal Grotto is not difficult, regardless what the kids say.

Go ask in zone chat: "Hey guys! Is Fungal Grott 1 difficult?" If you get 100 responses, I'm sure the 100 will be that it is not, and what are you going to say? The same to me that "You can't say Fungal Grotto 1 is difficult because for you it's easy"?

For me, things have a general, known and set level of difficulty, regardless personal opinions and personal skill levels.
 

Again that is your opinion. Everything you have just said. Opinion. None of it is fact. And no they are not wrong. There is no way that you can objectively know how difficult another finds something that you find easy because that is an entirely subjective experience. If someone finds something difficult, then it is difficult, for them and it doesn't really matter if you find it easy, as you are not them.

Funny that what I say is wrong but at the same time you say "No, they are not wrong". So I can say they are wrong and it's not valid but you can tell me that I'm wrong and that they are not wrong and it's valid.

I never said you were wrong, I said that they weren't wrong and that your opinion doesn't constitute a fact.

Dragonnord wrote: »

Following your logic then, I can tell you that everything you are saying to me is wrong.

Not sure you are following any logic there because the general point of what I said was that no one can say anyone is wrong about a subjective experience. But you are as entitled to air a subjective opinion as the next person (that still doesn't make it an object fact).

Dragonnord wrote: »

So Shara, what you are telling me is completely wrong, because is subjetcive blah, blah, blah.

There you are.

No that is not what I am telling you.

Dragonnord wrote: »

By the way, please do not derail the thread anymore, because that's what is happening here with you caring so much for what I say.
 

Also I wasn't trying to derail the thread. Initially I was agreeing with the original poster that finding a trial group in Craglorn or via the Group Finder outside of peak times is difficult and sometimes nigh on impossible. I was also agreeing with another poster that the bar has been raised. This is very much the case as the "Savior of..." achievement has never been locked behind a trial before.

You (and others) made the point about how easy you (and they) thought nHoF is. I disagreed with you and made the counter point that it is not for you to tell others how to feel. If you don't think that it is difficult, but others do, that doesn't make you right and them wrong, it just means that you both have different experiences of the content.

You (and others) are also of the opinion, that it is quite easy to get 11 other people together for a trial group. However, in my experience, during the times I play, I do not find that to be the case.

As such I agree with the OP in that I also wish that ZOS would stop putting mythic leads behind trials as many will struggle to obtain those leads, for a variety of reasons I am sure. And yes, that is also just my opinion.

You still don't understand that it doesn't matter what you say and what your experience is.

Fungal Grotto 1 is easy. Period. If you find it difficult is your problem and doesn't change the fact that Fungal Grotto 1 is still easy.

Again, if a 12 years old kid says Fungal Grotto 1 is the most ultra hard nightmare content he has played in his short gaming life, that means nothing. Fungal Grotto is easy.

Otherwise, the different type of contents could never be labeled as easy, medium, hard, etc.

Imagine when you install a game and the game lets you select the difficulty level: EASY, NORMAL, HARD, NIGHTMARE.

What are you going to tell the company? "Hey! I selected easy and died a lot and find it very difficult. You lied to me company! That's not easy! It's super difficult! I will sue you!"?

Again, what you say, feel or experience doesn't change the fact that some content has a standard, set or fixed level of difficulty.
 

...yeah... it's like talking to a brick wall...

The sun is shining. The weather is good. Have a nice one, truly

You can beat hof with somewhere between 1/4 and 1/2 of the "required" players. Just like FG1.

In any case, you've spent so much time arguing about the injustice of having to do some of the easiest content in the game you could have beat it 10x over by now if you really cared to. This, I think you're arguing just for the sake of arguing at this point.

sarahthes

Also it sounds like there's going to be bonus endeavors for completing HoF next month, among other Morrowind/Clockwork City related things. So I expect group finder will remain quite busy with hof related groups!

Dragonnord

Shara_Wynn wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

Shara_Wynn wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

Shara_Wynn wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

Shara_Wynn wrote: »

@Dragonnord You can't say that someone is wrong, just because you disagree with them. It is not for you tell anyone else, how to experience a game, an event, the world. You are entitled to your opinion but so are other players. If another player doesn't like doing trials, or are in some way intimidated by them, then they don't like doing trials and that's ok. You can disagree with them but that doesn't make them wrong.

We all need to remember that we are all individuals. What is easy for you, isn't necessarily so easy for others.

I have had someone on these forums tell me that nHoF was as easy as FG1 and that it was impossible to wipe in it (their lived experience). Well, I did nHoF with a PUG and it wiped three times on the final boss (my lived experience).

I'm sorry but I don't agree with you. They are wrong, yes. If they find it difficult that doesn't mean it is difficult. With ALL DUE RESPECT, they are then below the line of skill needed to complete an easy content as an old normal trial is.

If I say the sun is small because I see it very small, if I say it's green because to my eyes it looks green, if I say its rays are cold becasue I fell them cold on my skin, it doesn't matter, the sun is big, yellow and hot, so I'm wrong regardless how I see it and feel it.
 
If I put 4 little kids to complete Fungal Grotto 1 they will say "Oh! Mommy! This is so difficult!". And Fungal Grotto is not difficult, regardless what the kids say.

Go ask in zone chat: "Hey guys! Is Fungal Grott 1 difficult?" If you get 100 responses, I'm sure the 100 will be that it is not, and what are you going to say? The same to me that "You can't say Fungal Grotto 1 is difficult because for you it's easy"?

For me, things have a general, known and set level of difficulty, regardless personal opinions and personal skill levels.
 

Again that is your opinion. Everything you have just said. Opinion. None of it is fact. And no they are not wrong. There is no way that you can objectively know how difficult another finds something that you find easy because that is an entirely subjective experience. If someone finds something difficult, then it is difficult, for them and it doesn't really matter if you find it easy, as you are not them.

Funny that what I say is wrong but at the same time you say "No, they are not wrong". So I can say they are wrong and it's not valid but you can tell me that I'm wrong and that they are not wrong and it's valid.

I never said you were wrong, I said that they weren't wrong and that your opinion doesn't constitute a fact.

Dragonnord wrote: »

Following your logic then, I can tell you that everything you are saying to me is wrong.

Not sure you are following any logic there because the general point of what I said was that no one can say anyone is wrong about a subjective experience. But you are as entitled to air a subjective opinion as the next person (that still doesn't make it an object fact).

Dragonnord wrote: »

So Shara, what you are telling me is completely wrong, because is subjetcive blah, blah, blah.

There you are.

No that is not what I am telling you.

Dragonnord wrote: »

By the way, please do not derail the thread anymore, because that's what is happening here with you caring so much for what I say.
 

Also I wasn't trying to derail the thread. Initially I was agreeing with the original poster that finding a trial group in Craglorn or via the Group Finder outside of peak times is difficult and sometimes nigh on impossible. I was also agreeing with another poster that the bar has been raised. This is very much the case as the "Savior of..." achievement has never been locked behind a trial before.

You (and others) made the point about how easy you (and they) thought nHoF is. I disagreed with you and made the counter point that it is not for you to tell others how to feel. If you don't think that it is difficult, but others do, that doesn't make you right and them wrong, it just means that you both have different experiences of the content.

You (and others) are also of the opinion, that it is quite easy to get 11 other people together for a trial group. However, in my experience, during the times I play, I do not find that to be the case.

As such I agree with the OP in that I also wish that ZOS would stop putting mythic leads behind trials as many will struggle to obtain those leads, for a variety of reasons I am sure. And yes, that is also just my opinion.

You still don't understand that it doesn't matter what you say and what your experience is.

Fungal Grotto 1 is easy. Period. If you find it difficult is your problem and doesn't change the fact that Fungal Grotto 1 is still easy.

Again, if a 12 years old kid says Fungal Grotto 1 is the most ultra hard nightmare content he has played in his short gaming life, that means nothing. Fungal Grotto is easy.

Otherwise, the different type of contents could never be labeled as easy, medium, hard, etc.

Imagine when you install a game and the game lets you select the difficulty level: EASY, NORMAL, HARD, NIGHTMARE.

What are you going to tell the company? "Hey! I selected easy and died a lot and find it very difficult. You lied to me company! That's not easy! It's super difficult! I will sue you!"?

Again, what you say, feel or experience doesn't change the fact that some content has a standard, set or fixed level of difficulty.
 

...yeah... it's like talking to a brick wall...

The sun is shining. The weather is good. Have a nice one, truly

Just because you say the weather is good, doesn't mean it is.

Still, have a nice one too!
 

Shara_Wynn

sarahthes wrote: »

You can beat hof with somewhere between 1/4 and 1/2 of the "required" players. Just like FG1.

In any case, you've spent so much time arguing about the injustice of having to do some of the easiest content in the game you could have beat it 10x over by now if you really cared to. This, I think you're arguing just for the sake of arguing at this point.

That might be true if there were enough people on during the non-peak times I play to do the trial with, but you are making the assumption that there are when there are not.

Also imho I don't think any trial can be considered "some of the easiest content in the game".

Also has it taken me maybe 5 minutes to read all the posts in this thread and type up what I have. I have multiple programs, tasks, pages and apps (including this message forum) running in the background while I do other things. Much like many others who post on here likely do

spartaxoxo

Dragonnord wrote: »

I didn't say it's a fact, I didn't say it's objective, I said there's a standard, fixed and set level of difficulty for x type content.

You and Shara know exactly what I mean, you are just confronting for the sake of doing so.
 

Dragonnord wrote: »

You still don't understand that it doesn't matter what you say and what your experience is.

Fungal Grotto 1 is easy. Period. If you find it difficult is your problem and doesn't change the fact that Fungal Grotto 1 is still easy.

Again, if a 12 years old kid says Fungal Grotto 1 is the most ultra hard nightmare content he has played in his short gaming life, that means nothing. Fungal Grotto is easy.

Otherwise, the different type of contents could never be labeled as easy, medium, hard, etc.

Imagine when you install a game and the game lets you select the difficulty level: EASY, NORMAL, HARD, NIGHTMARE.

What are you going to tell the company? "Hey! I selected easy and died a lot and find it very difficult. You lied to me company! That's not easy! It's super difficult! I will sue you!"?

Again, what you say, feel or experience doesn't change the fact that some content has a standard, set or fixed level of difficulty.
 

You did, and specifically to say others experiences don't matter (in regards to things like normal trials being easy and other content standards). Perhaps you misspoke, but I wasn't responding just to have a go. I said it because that's just not the case. Game developers do have standards within their own games, but they will be the first to tell you that player experience does matter. It is common practice to make changes to content based off those experiences as well.

A lot of people thought Herald Seekers were hard, even though that content was meant to be easily accessible. And the result was a nerf.

Many people found trial groups hard to get into and hard to form themselves. So, the devs added the group finder to help make grouping easier for all types of groups.

Developers make standards. But they use player sentiment and experiences to refine those things. Nobody is wrong about a subjective experience and it's good for them to share it. If there is many people in the same boat, developers can make improvements to the game to minimize those pain points. And if hardly anyone has the same issue, that's good for devs to know too. And maybe players can help each other sort it.

DoofusMax

While it would be nice if mythic leads weren't walled behind Trials, I'd actually settle for a bit of consistency when it comes to the "Savior of..." achievements.

Morrowind, Summerset, Elsweyr, Greymoor, Blackwood, and High Isle all followed the same scheme: complete the zone story, find all the skyshards, beat the six delve bosses, beat the six World Bosses, do X side-quests, and beat the group event bosses in the public dungeons.

Morrowind through Greymoor required the completion of the zone's museum quest, but those went away after Greymoor (I kinda miss them, but they never even send selfies).

Then (because reasons), Necrom and Gold Road lumped all of those into the "Hero of ..." achievement, and expanded "Savior of ...." to include excavating the mythics (problematic if the player doesn't have Greymoor to even do Antiquities), doing X of each zone daily (it's not enough to beat the bosses; they must be beaten 30 times), and Master Angler (because the people aren't getting enough of those Omega-3 fatty acids).

It's fine if that's your story and you're sticking to it, but at least stick to it.

TaSheen

DoofusMax wrote: »

While it would be nice if mythic leads weren't walled behind Trials, I'd actually settle for a bit of consistency when it comes to the "Savior of..." achievements.

Morrowind, Summerset, Elsweyr, Greymoor, Blackwood, and High Isle all followed the same scheme: complete the zone story, find all the skyshards, beat the six delve bosses, beat the six World Bosses, do X side-quests, and beat the group event bosses in the public dungeons.

Morrowind through Greymoor required the completion of the zone's museum quest, but those went away after Greymoor (I kinda miss them, but they never even send selfies).

Then (because reasons), Necrom and Gold Road lumped all of those into the "Hero of ..." achievement, and expanded "Savior of ...." to include excavating the mythics (problematic if the player doesn't have Greymoor to even do Antiquities), doing X of each zone daily (it's not enough to beat the bosses; they must be beaten 30 times), and Master Angler (because the people aren't getting enough of those Omega-3 fatty acids).

It's fine if that's your story and you're sticking to it, but at least stick to it.

Well.... the problem here is that ZOS is doubling down on "if you're an achieve junky, then you have to do stuff you don't really want to even mess with".

For me, I don't give a rat's patoot. Obviously there are those who have some serious issues here though....

Dragonnord

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Nobody is wrong about a subjective experience

That's your opinion and I do not share it at all.

Whatever you say, whatever they say, if 1.000.000 players say Fungal Grotto 1 is hard (based on their experience), they are completely wrong.

I don't care what they say, it doesnt matter what they say, it doesn't matter what you say and think...

Fungal Grotto 1 is easy, not hard, regardless everything and any example you and anyone can come up with.
 
And same thing happens with other content, not just with FG1.
 

Melissa1414

Ever since I started with anxiety disorder and panic attacks I've tried to stay away from stressful things in games and trials are one of them. Because essentially trials are raids and raids are very stressful for me which is partly why I quit playing World of Warcraft. I'm not going to risk suffering a panic attack just to get a lead to get the last Mythic and get the mount.

spartaxoxo

Dragonnord wrote: »

That's your opinion and I do not share it at all.

No. Opinions are objectively not facts.

Most people find Fungal Grotto easy. Fact (Probably. Devs have certainly joked as much).

The developers purposefully designed it so most would find it easy. Fact. It was designed as a beginner dungeon and it's recommended level is lower than most others.

You, personally, are of the opinion it is easy. Fact.

Someone out there may feel that it is hard. There are still people who die in there. Fact.

Fungal Grotto is easy. opinion. Difficulty is subjective and depends on a variety of factors.

Nobody's opinion is a fact. Personally, I suspect most people are entirely capable of completing NHOF. But, that they may not want to engage in this group content. And that this requirement risks alienating the people who enjoyed questing as it's own activity.

lostineternity

I hope zos will add even more leads to the trials

JanTanhide

The leads may cycle through the merchant in Infinite Archive. I think the Leads change on Mondays but not positive. I don't think leads should drop in Trials either but it is what it is.

fizl101

TBH I would rather do a trial to get a lead than stand around a delve boss hoping you get a hit in then waiting for it to respawn.

As one of those people who swore never to do anything grouped up to now regularly hosting and running trials, I would like to re-iterate what has been said before that all trials aren't full of toxic people shouting you down and kicking you out every 2 minutes. Its actually much easier to help out a newbie dd in a trial than in a dungeon, as you have more dds to help spread out the load. I would honestly encourage people to give it a try, if not via the group finder then a social guild that runs normal trials

Gray_howling_parrot

I don’t think leads being placed in trials is a bad thing per se as long as it makes sense for the intention of use for the e mythic itself.

For instance, if we have a mythic designed to be used when thieving and assassinating, having leads drop from heists, assassinations, dark sacraments, etc makes sense.

If a mythic is largely designed for difficult PvE gameplay, whether or not it’s good, I think it being placed in trials is fine. Usually whenever this happens, like the lead in sunspire for the dov-rha Sabatons, it’ll be easy to find a group via the group finder for it.

spartaxoxo

Cooperharley wrote: »

I don’t think leads being placed in trials is a bad thing per se as long as it makes sense for the intention of use for the e mythic itself.

For instance, if we have a mythic designed to be used when thieving and assassinating, having leads drop from heists, assassinations, dark sacraments, etc makes sense.

If a mythic is largely designed for difficult PvE gameplay, whether or not it’s good, I think it being placed in trials is fine. Usually whenever this happens, like the lead in sunspire for the dov-rha Sabatons, it’ll be easy to find a group via the group finder for it.

This is a great point. Also, sometimes you'd want a cool item from a trial to be turned into a furnishing. It makes sense to put that sort of lead in trials as well e.g. the Sea Elf Galleon Helm from Dreadsail Reef.

Necrotech_Master

JanTanhide wrote: »

The leads may cycle through the merchant in Infinite Archive. I think the Leads change on Mondays but not positive. I don't think leads should drop in Trials either but it is what it is.

infinite archive and scholarium vendors rotation stock changes on tuesday

DigiAngel

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the lead in DSA....that's like 30 minutes minimum just for a chance at that lead.

Gray_howling_parrot

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Cooperharley wrote: »

I don’t think leads being placed in trials is a bad thing per se as long as it makes sense for the intention of use for the e mythic itself.

For instance, if we have a mythic designed to be used when thieving and assassinating, having leads drop from heists, assassinations, dark sacraments, etc makes sense.

If a mythic is largely designed for difficult PvE gameplay, whether or not it’s good, I think it being placed in trials is fine. Usually whenever this happens, like the lead in sunspire for the dov-rha Sabatons, it’ll be easy to find a group via the group finder for it.

This is a great point. Also, sometimes you'd want a cool item from a trial to be turned into a furnishing. It makes sense to put that sort of lead in trials as well e.g. the Sea Elf Galleon Helm from Dreadsail Reef.

Yea so for instance, having the leads of torc of the last ayleid king be tied to IA, when it’s largely designed for PvP or new players, is very, very odd.

Araneae6537

I can only think people are complaining about this lead because they don’t realize it’s a guaranteed drop (which is understandable, since it’s the first, to my knowledge). What is frustrating is how many times I’ve run Bal Sunnar without getting that lead (and I actually like that dungeon and have been running it for the motif drops anyway). I’m dreading trying to grind for the mythic leads behind side bosses in the High Isle dungeons. Those aren’t guaranteed, are they? That will require organizing a group because I don’t want to impose on a PUG group. Ugh, I don’t even want the stupid greaves, but I DO want the beryl nix ox behind the Necrom Savior achievement.

But that’s not all! As annoying as tying to get those side boss leads may prove to be, at least I CAN grind for it, if I want to. What about all the lovely furnishing tickets locked behind treasure maps??? Why don’t more people complain about that? The only option is to waste one’s gold on lottery tickets treasure maps. If there is something more demoralizing in this game, I haven’t found it. I’d rather the furnishings be in CRATES, because then at least I could spend Gems or Seals. Instead it’s just RNG SOL.