Please stop putting mythic leads in Trials.

Tommy_The_Gun · June 25

When they put Mythic Leads in group dungeon, at least you can use Dungeon Finder to do the content. Also, like some one mentioned, it has nothing to do with difficulty, as some Base or DLC vet group dungeons are harder than base/dlc nTrials.

It is weird cuz for Trials, for whatever reason ZOS decided to not go with the automated MM system, but rather with "player controlled" lobby system - which is not good as it means that a lot of players are excluded from this system and have no chances in participating (example: Aracanist or DK will almost always picked vs for example NB tank etc, or some guild mates will be prioritize). It is almost as if ZOS wanted to keep the illusion of elite hard end game content so that end game PvE players would not feel like "casuals" can do that content too lol.

Also... it seems that (at least on PC EU) almost no one uses that system anyway, so it is actually faster to "Tank LFG nAA" in chat. It still takes hours to form a group that way, but it is faster than using Group Finder for trials since - again - no one is using it.

Major_Toughness · June 25

I just joined group finder with 11 random people.

It's a guaranteed drop so you only have to do 1 run.

It's not hard at all. It's a part of the game, it is end game PvE, and should be promotes.

Veinblood1965 · June 25

Anifaas wrote: »

I'm jealous of the console group finder. All PC-NA ever has are DSA and maybe the occasional cloudrest trials.

That's exactly why I created this post. Add in the new trial and that's about it. Unless you can stay in-game for 6 hours during a day and keep looking in group finder. It's not that I don't WANT to run it, I can't. And as stated I know I can start a group myself but being as I am not a trial person it's not fair to all the others that join as I can't actually lead it.

Maybe there are HOF's in group finder and I'm having bad group finder RNG for the times I'm on. Well at least it's guaranteed, i did not know that so eventually I'll get a group and get my lead.

Vynera · June 25

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

It is weird cuz for Trials, for whatever reason ZOS decided to not go with the automated MM system, but rather with "player controlled" lobby system - which is not good as it means that a lot of players are excluded from this system and have no chances in participating (example: Aracanist or DK will almost always picked vs for example NB tank etc, or some guild mates will be prioritize). It is almost as if ZOS wanted to keep the illusion of elite hard end game content so that end game PvE players would not feel like "casuals" can do that content too lol.

Also... it seems that (at least on PC EU) almost no one uses that system anyway, so it is actually faster to "Tank LFG nAA" in chat. It still takes hours to form a group that way, but it is faster than using Group Finder for trials since - again - no one is using it.

That is simply not true, at least for normal content, vet lobbies are..different.

The group finder is used, every time I open that tool there are lobbies I could join.
99,99% of the lobbies have the setting to auto-accept enabled, especially for normal runs.
ZOS has nothing todo with the "illusion of elite hard end game content", it's actually the players fault.
They are to scared to join a group and rather complain on the forums that endgame is to hard, without even trying.

Even on my second account (240cp), I opend the groupfinder, waited like 5 minutes, joined a group and did a normal trial. None kicked me, none complained about low cp or whatever. You just need basic knowledge about your class and the game, as like cast skills, dont stand in red etc to complete normal content.

EF321 · June 25

Dragonnord wrote: »

Vynera wrote: »

I see nHoF groups daily in the group finder, just did a run ~2 hours ago with randoms on normal.

Was done in 20 minutes, average CP was around 900.
Everyone did average DPS, around 30-50k in boss fights except two DDs with 90-100k. Was more than enough DPS to just skip through every mechanic.

It is just normal, it is an old trail and almost everything can be skipped. As long as you dont go in naked you should be able to reach the end boss by pressing random buttons and aiming towards the boss.

For normal you don't need meta setups, 115k+ parses, group/voice chat, guilds, min-maxed group setup or whatever.

Exactly this comment above.

This thread is misleading towards what the reality is.

Getting the nHoF lead is super easy, more even because ZOS put the drop chance for the lead at almost 100% (or directly 100%, as in my run all 12 players got it).

2.5 years ago, before oakensoul and arcanist, I completed nHoF with mostly first timers, either first time HoF or first trial altogether. This included real lvl18 and lvl22 who just bought the game a couple of days ago, and a lot of very low CPs:

xclassgaming · June 25

No, this is good it livens up trials that are less played, i think they should add more leads to different dead trials like kynes aegis for example, i have not seen any run it in months. This is a good thing.

code65536 · June 25

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

And as stated I know I can start a group myself but being as I am not a trial person it's not fair to all the others that join as I can't actually lead it.

You are way overestimating what's needed for a normal trial. For normal trials, starting a group just means you started a group. That's it. There is almost never any "leading" in a normal trial. I've even been in a number of normal Group Finder groups where the person who has crown was like, "I'm just here for X and I have no idea how this works".

(Even many vet Group Finder groups have no leadership and no communication.)

If you don't see a group, make one. Seriously. Starting a group does not mean you suddenly committed yourself to training and holding the hands of 11 other people.

Bo0137 · June 25

I don't like it either

TKo_ROUSE · June 25

code65536 wrote: »

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

And as stated I know I can start a group myself but being as I am not a trial person it's not fair to all the others that join as I can't actually lead it.

You are way overestimating what's needed for a normal trial. For normal trials, starting a group just means you started a group. That's it. There is almost never any "leading" in a normal trial. I've even been in a number of normal Group Finder groups where the person who has crown was like, "I'm just here for X and I have no idea how this works".

(Even many vet Group Finder groups have no leadership and no communication.)

If you don't see a group, make one. Seriously. Starting a group does not mean you suddenly committed yourself to training and holding the hands of 11 other people.

When I first start playing trials I was completely in this boat. I remember reading Alcast's guide to sunspire several times before even joining a normal run. I ensured the person that i understood tombs and other mechanics so even though I never ran it I should be able to catch on.

He just replied "[snip] you talking about people don't do mechanics on normal" So I sat there sweating the idea of joining for days for no reason. So please guys listen to codes advice and give it a shot on normal, most of you are really just over estimating it.

[edited for profanity bypass]

valenwood_vegan · June 25

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

That's exactly why I created this post. Add in the new trial and that's about it. Unless you can stay in-game for 6 hours during a day and keep looking in group finder.

Yeah, I've been checking several times every day (on PC/NA) for the last week or so just out of curiosity (I don't actually do PuG's in this game after past experiences) and I've not seen a single HoF group. Most of the time it's only had groups doing the new trial.

It may indeed depend on what time one plays / how long one has to wait around in game / luck of the draw. I don't think the group finder is a magic cure-all here. I am fortunate to be in a guild that can eventually help me get the lead if I want to, so that could be another avenue to try. Many social or even larger trading guilds may offer regular trials for their members.
...

On a more general note, I do find it disappointing that zos decided to tie a DLC dungeon (last year) and now a trial to the big chapter completion achievement, but then again it's also a new thing that they're offering mounts with these achievements... so I can see why more requirements are being added. It is what it is I guess.

I wonder if it would be more effective to offer some new and better rewards tied specifically to trials (even old ones) - this may entice more players to try them out without making a subset of players who are not interested feel "forced" (I am using the term liberally here) to do them. More of a carrot and less of a stick so to speak.

Ultimately trials are part of the game and they're not as bad as some are making them out to be. But at the same time, I wish some of the trial "regulars" would be a little more understanding that they may be overwhelming or anxiety-provoking for players who have not done them before, for a variety of reasons. These reasons don't necessarily include the actual difficulty of the content.

And I'll just conclude here by challenging any of the players telling others it's so easy, just find or create a group... to actually offer to help. Will any offer to schedule and lead even one nHoF run on their server this weekend open to people on the forums who are anxious about running it?

[EDIT for emphasis].

furiouslog · June 25

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

I may be incorrect then. My experience is farming nodes in Carglorn for an hour here and an hour there and asking in zone chat and /or waiting for someone who needs extra people in zone chat for HoF I have come up with a total of zero. I'll keep trying. It may also be that I'm just not a trial person so there are other ways other than that.

Why aren't you using group finder?

I have looked in group finder every single day since GR went live on PS4/5 NA server last Tuesday and not one single group started. Plenty for the new zone trial and a few others but not HoF. I didn't want to start one as I know nothing about the trial other than what i read up on. I wouldn't want to get the group started then I'm like "well I know nothing about the trial does anyone here know anything?".

Hence my entire reason for the post. Certain trials are just not commonly ran. Even with the lead in this one it still doesn't appear to be ran much.

After the chapter drop, there were constant HoF runs in group finder in PC. Pretty odd that it's not happening in console. You could try to start one but put in a message that you need someone to lead?

I think it's one of those things where if you choose not to participate in guilds that arrange these runs, it's a barrier to entry that you need to accept as part of how you choose to play the game.

Shara_Wynn · June 25

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

I may be incorrect then. My experience is farming nodes in Carglorn for an hour here and an hour there and asking in zone chat and /or waiting for someone who needs extra people in zone chat for HoF I have come up with a total of zero. I'll keep trying. It may also be that I'm just not a trial person so there are other ways other than that.

No you are not incorrect. Just because that is the experience of other players (who more than likely play PEAK TIMES in the EU or NA) it doesn't mean it is the experience of every player.

To anyone who thinks getting a trial group together is easy, I challenge you log into the game at 4am and see how many folk are queuing for dungeons or looking for a trial group on your respective server.

I play OFF PEAK. There are hardly any players in group finder. Some days there is literally nothing in the group finder. Not a single entry for trial or dungeon or whatever. And next to no one is trying to get trials together in Craglorn either. As for my guilds, there's maybe like an average of 12 people online in each of them.

Dragonnord wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

Also @Elsonso, you say "Now it requires a trial. They raised the bar.". You see the word "trial" and already think of hell.

I am sure that a lot of people will do exactly that...

They are wrong.

Allowe me to repeat why I mentioned above:

There are dungeons (hard modes mostly), arenas and so harder than many normal trials, and even than some veteran trials like AA or HRC.

A trial is just a dungeon, only that rooms are bigger and so more people fit in. The rest is all the same: adds, bosses and mechanics, than in mostly all normal trials (I'd even say all) you don't even need to respect nor do.

There is no need to be afraid of trials, less even if running normal versions. Don't even mention if old trials.

@Dragonnord You can't say that someone is wrong, just because you disagree with them. It is not for you tell anyone else, how to experience a game, an event, the world. You are entitled to your opinion but so are other players. If another player doesn't like doing trials, or are in some way intimidated by them, then they don't like doing trials and that's ok. You can disagree with them but that doesn't make them wrong.

We all need to remember that we are all individuals. What is easy for you, isn't necessarily so easy for others.

I have had someone on these forums tell me that nHoF was as easy as FG1 and that it was impossible to wipe in it (their lived experience). Well, I did nHoF with a PUG and it wiped three times on the final boss (my lived experience).

Necrotech_Master · June 25

TKo_ROUSE wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

And as stated I know I can start a group myself but being as I am not a trial person it's not fair to all the others that join as I can't actually lead it.

You are way overestimating what's needed for a normal trial. For normal trials, starting a group just means you started a group. That's it. There is almost never any "leading" in a normal trial. I've even been in a number of normal Group Finder groups where the person who has crown was like, "I'm just here for X and I have no idea how this works".

(Even many vet Group Finder groups have no leadership and no communication.)

If you don't see a group, make one. Seriously. Starting a group does not mean you suddenly committed yourself to training and holding the hands of 11 other people.

When I first start playing trials I was completely in this boat. I remember reading Alcast's guide to sunspire several times before even joining a normal run. I ensured the person that i understood tombs and other mechanics so even though I never ran it I should be able to catch on.

He just replied "[snip] you talking about people don't do mechanics on normal" So I sat there sweating the idea of joining for days for no reason. So please guys listen to codes advice and give it a shot on normal, most of you are really just over estimating it.

this for sure lol

like reading the guides does help understand the mechanics, but a vast majority of them mean little or nothing on normal with where most groups dps is

in order to "do mechanics" on normal your group would have to be a combined would be like 100k dps or less (though to be honest im not sure you could get less than this unless you flat out had companions as half the group) (80k dps for 8 dps, 20k dps for supports (or 5k dps per heal/tank)

that would mean every dps in the group would have to be doing like 10-15k dps to really even see any mechanics on normal

if the avg dps in the game right now is at least 30k on the 6 mil dummy, your group would be doing almost 300k dps which is way over the bar for normal

[edited to remove quote]

Elsonso · June 25

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

if the avg dps in the game right now is at least 30k on the 6 mil dummy, your group would be doing almost 300k dps which is way over the bar for normal

We don't know what the average DPS is in this game, but if I had to formulate a realistic guess, I would suggest it is closer to 15k than 30k... and that includes the people who are looking at Trials thinking, "wonder if I can do this..."

I think that ZOS is pushing trials because they want more people doing trials. They have voiced similar things in the past, so it is not outside of the realm of possibility. I figure that if they can load up more reasons to go into trials, then more people will do them. This would be the development team trying to lead the players into content, but if players who are not doing trials wanted to do trials, they would be doing trials. Who knows. Maybe that is not why ZOS is put that lead in there.

Ultimately, it is great that the drop is 100% and even better if normal HoF is as easy as Fungal Grotto

and they can make their own group and go in there. The simple matter remains that if they wanted to do all that, they would be doing all of that and it would be no issue.

Can nHoF be done with a group of players doing 15k DPS (ish) average, wearing no special gear, that are unfamiliar with the mechanics? Will those players find the experience to be rewarding? Will they ever do a trial again?

It is an issue. If it were not an issue, we would not even be discussing it here.

Dragonnord · June 25

Shara_Wynn wrote: »

@Dragonnord You can't say that someone is wrong, just because you disagree with them. It is not for you tell anyone else, how to experience a game, an event, the world. You are entitled to your opinion but so are other players. If another player doesn't like doing trials, or are in some way intimidated by them, then they don't like doing trials and that's ok. You can disagree with them but that doesn't make them wrong.

We all need to remember that we are all individuals. What is easy for you, isn't necessarily so easy for others.

I have had someone on these forums tell me that nHoF was as easy as FG1 and that it was impossible to wipe in it (their lived experience). Well, I did nHoF with a PUG and it wiped three times on the final boss (my lived experience).

I'm sorry but I don't agree with you. They are wrong, yes. If they find it difficult that doesn't mean it is difficult. With ALL DUE RESPECT, they are then below the line of skill needed to complete an easy content as an old normal trial is.

If I say the sun is small because I see it very small, if I say it's green because to my eyes it looks green, if I say its rays are cold becasue I fell them cold on my skin, it doesn't matter, the sun is big, yellow and hot, so I'm wrong regardless how I see it and feel it.

If I put 4 little kids to complete Fungal Grotto 1 they will say "Oh! Mommy! This is so difficult!". And Fungal Grotto is not difficult, regardless what the kids say.

Go ask in zone chat: "Hey guys! Is Fungal Grott 1 difficult?" If you get 100 responses, I'm sure the 100 will be that it is not, and what are you going to say? The same to me that "You can't say Fungal Grotto 1 is difficult because for you it's easy"?

For me, things have a general, known and set level of difficulty, regardless personal opinions and personal skill levels.

Necrotech_Master · June 25

Elsonso wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

if the avg dps in the game right now is at least 30k on the 6 mil dummy, your group would be doing almost 300k dps which is way over the bar for normal

We don't know what the average DPS is in this game, but if I had to formulate a realistic guess, I would suggest it is closer to 15k than 30k... and that includes the people who are looking at Trials thinking, "wonder if I can do this..."

I think that ZOS is pushing trials because they want more people doing trials. They have voiced similar things in the past, so it is not outside of the realm of possibility. I figure that if they can load up more reasons to go into trials, then more people will do them. This would be the development team trying to lead the players into content, but if players who are not doing trials wanted to do trials, they would be doing trials. Who knows. Maybe that is not why ZOS is put that lead in there.

Ultimately, it is great that the drop is 100% and even better if normal HoF is as easy as Fungal Grotto and they can make their own group and go in there. The simple matter remains that if they wanted to do all that, they would be doing all of that and it would be no issue.

Can nHoF be done with a group of players doing 15k DPS (ish) average, wearing no special gear, that are unfamiliar with the mechanics? Will those players find the experience to be rewarding? Will they ever do a trial again?

It is an issue. If it were not an issue, we would not even be discussing it here.

the only way to really get less than 15k dps is to do absolutely nothing but light attack, or you know, have no weapons or armor equipped

my healer character avg 5k dps, which is expected

my tank characters when they are actually tanking can do around 4k dps, but when i can be more offensive do 10-12k dps

in order to get a full group of people doing 15k dps each you would literally have to have a bunch of completely new, poorly geared players

im sure it could be done if the dps was that low, but its extremely doubtful that a group would have that low dps, would they have to practice some of the bosses mechanics? possibly, there is 1 boss in there you cant just sit there any dummy parse (the large dwemer spider still needs someone to operate the switches to make it vulnerable), and the final boss (need someone who knows how to tank to prevent the boss jumps, which will wipe the group on the 3rd jump, so it cant be "range tanked")

the only other boss that might have any real mechanic is the 2nd boss (pinnacle factotum), where if you cant burn it before it wipes the group, would have to have people go upstairs to hit the switches

on normal none of those mechanics are really challenging

if you go into a trial the first time and dont succeed, and give up on it entirely, thats a failure on the players part honestly. for giving up and not improving ones self and learning from mistakes

a big problem in todays world is people seem to be afraid of failure

Tommy_The_Gun · June 25

Vynera wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

It is weird cuz for Trials, for whatever reason ZOS decided to not go with the automated MM system, but rather with "player controlled" lobby system - which is not good as it means that a lot of players are excluded from this system and have no chances in participating (example: Aracanist or DK will almost always picked vs for example NB tank etc, or some guild mates will be prioritize). It is almost as if ZOS wanted to keep the illusion of elite hard end game content so that end game PvE players would not feel like "casuals" can do that content too lol.

Also... it seems that (at least on PC EU) almost no one uses that system anyway, so it is actually faster to "Tank LFG nAA" in chat. It still takes hours to form a group that way, but it is faster than using Group Finder for trials since - again - no one is using it.

That is simply not true, at least for normal content, vet lobbies are..different.

The group finder is used, every time I open that tool there are lobbies I could join.
99,99% of the lobbies have the setting to auto-accept enabled, especially for normal runs.
ZOS has nothing todo with the "illusion of elite hard end game content", it's actually the players fault.
They are to scared to join a group and rather complain on the forums that endgame is to hard, without even trying.

Even on my second account (240cp), I opend the groupfinder, waited like 5 minutes, joined a group and did a normal trial. None kicked me, none complained about low cp or whatever. You just need basic knowledge about your class and the game, as like cast skills, dont stand in red etc to complete normal content.

Well, my experience is vastly different. Usually when I open it there is like 1 or 2 Lobby and they are almost always barely occupied. The most "filled up" one I saw was like 7/12. When this system originally launched there used to be more like, 5 or 7 lobbies. But then again, maybe that is server/platform/time zone difference IDk. I am just saying what I have observed, that for the most part not many people use this tool.

Necrotech_Master · June 25

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Vynera wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

It is weird cuz for Trials, for whatever reason ZOS decided to not go with the automated MM system, but rather with "player controlled" lobby system - which is not good as it means that a lot of players are excluded from this system and have no chances in participating (example: Aracanist or DK will almost always picked vs for example NB tank etc, or some guild mates will be prioritize). It is almost as if ZOS wanted to keep the illusion of elite hard end game content so that end game PvE players would not feel like "casuals" can do that content too lol.

Also... it seems that (at least on PC EU) almost no one uses that system anyway, so it is actually faster to "Tank LFG nAA" in chat. It still takes hours to form a group that way, but it is faster than using Group Finder for trials since - again - no one is using it.

That is simply not true, at least for normal content, vet lobbies are..different.

The group finder is used, every time I open that tool there are lobbies I could join.
99,99% of the lobbies have the setting to auto-accept enabled, especially for normal runs.
ZOS has nothing todo with the "illusion of elite hard end game content", it's actually the players fault.
They are to scared to join a group and rather complain on the forums that endgame is to hard, without even trying.

Even on my second account (240cp), I opend the groupfinder, waited like 5 minutes, joined a group and did a normal trial. None kicked me, none complained about low cp or whatever. You just need basic knowledge about your class and the game, as like cast skills, dont stand in red etc to complete normal content.

Well, my experience is vastly different. Usually when I open it there is like 1 or 2 Lobby and they are almost always barely occupied. The most "filled up" one I saw was like 7/12. When this system originally launched there used to be more like, 5 or 7 lobbies. But then again, maybe that is server/platform/time zone difference IDk. I am just saying what I have observed, that for the most part not many people use this tool.

you wont ever see "full" group listings in the group finder, as the listing gets removed as soon as the group fills

i frequently check the trial listings on PC NA and i see anywhere between 3 and 8 listings, in various states of being filled

ive also used the group finder to fill trials and usually on avg have the group filled in less than 15 minutes from time i posted

sarahthes · June 25

Shara_Wynn wrote: »

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

I may be incorrect then. My experience is farming nodes in Carglorn for an hour here and an hour there and asking in zone chat and /or waiting for someone who needs extra people in zone chat for HoF I have come up with a total of zero. I'll keep trying. It may also be that I'm just not a trial person so there are other ways other than that.

No you are not incorrect. Just because that is the experience of other players (who more than likely play PEAK TIMES in the EU or NA) it doesn't mean it is the experience of every player.

To anyone who thinks getting a trial group together is easy, I challenge you log into the game at 4am and see how many folk are queuing for dungeons or looking for a trial group on your respective server.

I play OFF PEAK. There are hardly any players in group finder. Some days there is literally nothing in the group finder. Not a single entry for trial or dungeon or whatever. And next to no one is trying to get trials together in Craglorn either. As for my guilds, there's maybe like an average of 12 people online in each of them.

Dragonnord wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

Also @Elsonso, you say "Now it requires a trial. They raised the bar.". You see the word "trial" and already think of hell.

I am sure that a lot of people will do exactly that...

They are wrong.

Allowe me to repeat why I mentioned above:

There are dungeons (hard modes mostly), arenas and so harder than many normal trials, and even than some veteran trials like AA or HRC.

A trial is just a dungeon, only that rooms are bigger and so more people fit in. The rest is all the same: adds, bosses and mechanics, than in mostly all normal trials (I'd even say all) you don't even need to respect nor do.

There is no need to be afraid of trials, less even if running normal versions. Don't even mention if old trials.

@Dragonnord You can't say that someone is wrong, just because you disagree with them. It is not for you tell anyone else, how to experience a game, an event, the world. You are entitled to your opinion but so are other players. If another player doesn't like doing trials, or are in some way intimidated by them, then they don't like doing trials and that's ok. You can disagree with them but that doesn't make them wrong.

We all need to remember that we are all individuals. What is easy for you, isn't necessarily so easy for others.

I have had someone on these forums tell me that nHoF was as easy as FG1 and that it was impossible to wipe in it (their lived experience). Well, I did nHoF with a PUG and it wiped three times on the final boss (my lived experience).

I didn't say it was impossible to wipe. I said it was about the same difficulty as FG1. It's possible to wipe there too.

Elsonso · June 25

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

if the avg dps in the game right now is at least 30k on the 6 mil dummy, your group would be doing almost 300k dps which is way over the bar for normal

We don't know what the average DPS is in this game, but if I had to formulate a realistic guess, I would suggest it is closer to 15k than 30k... and that includes the people who are looking at Trials thinking, "wonder if I can do this..."

the only way to really get less than 15k dps is to do absolutely nothing but light attack, or you know, have no weapons or armor equipped

Possibly. It would certainly be interesting to hear from ZOS about the average DPS is across active players. I'd also like to see the distribution. I think there are probably spikes at different places along the spectrum, too.

sarahthes wrote: »

I didn't say it was impossible to wipe. I said it was about the same difficulty as FG1. It's possible to wipe there too.

Just to be clear... I assume we need to note that you are talking about veteran FG1?
I mean, if you are talking normal everyday FG1 that can be solo'ed by a drunken skeever with only three legs, then...?

sarahthes · June 25

Elsonso wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

if the avg dps in the game right now is at least 30k on the 6 mil dummy, your group would be doing almost 300k dps which is way over the bar for normal

We don't know what the average DPS is in this game, but if I had to formulate a realistic guess, I would suggest it is closer to 15k than 30k... and that includes the people who are looking at Trials thinking, "wonder if I can do this..."

the only way to really get less than 15k dps is to do absolutely nothing but light attack, or you know, have no weapons or armor equipped

Possibly. It would certainly be interesting to hear from ZOS about the average DPS is across active players. I'd also like to see the distribution. I think there are probably spikes at different places along the spectrum, too.

sarahthes wrote: »

I didn't say it was impossible to wipe. I said it was about the same difficulty as FG1. It's possible to wipe there too.

Just to be clear... I assume we need to note that you are talking about veteran FG1?
I mean, if you are talking normal everyday FG1 that can be solo'ed by a drunken skeever with only three legs, then...?

I'm not talking about vet.

Normal HoF is about the same difficulty level as normal FG1, taking into account it's scaled for 12 players.

It can be beaten with far, far fewer than the intended number of party members, mechanics can be ignored with as few as half the number of intended party members...

Yeah. They're on par.

FG1 is difficult for new players the first time they do it too, if grouped with other people who don't know what they're doing. That doesn't mean it's objectively difficult though.

Necrotech_Master · June 25

Elsonso wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

if the avg dps in the game right now is at least 30k on the 6 mil dummy, your group would be doing almost 300k dps which is way over the bar for normal

We don't know what the average DPS is in this game, but if I had to formulate a realistic guess, I would suggest it is closer to 15k than 30k... and that includes the people who are looking at Trials thinking, "wonder if I can do this..."

the only way to really get less than 15k dps is to do absolutely nothing but light attack, or you know, have no weapons or armor equipped

Possibly. It would certainly be interesting to hear from ZOS about the average DPS is across active players. I'd also like to see the distribution. I think there are probably spikes at different places along the spectrum, too.

sarahthes wrote: »

I didn't say it was impossible to wipe. I said it was about the same difficulty as FG1. It's possible to wipe there too.

Just to be clear... I assume we need to note that you are talking about veteran FG1?
I mean, if you are talking normal everyday FG1 that can be solo'ed by a drunken skeever with only three legs, then...?

my main is like a 38k hp (with food) tank character running 2 tank sets, 1 offensive monster set, and can hit about 10k dps without being spec'd into any kind of dmg

any person spec'd into dmg (using medium or light armor, and more offensive gear sets), can easily hit double that, which would be 20k dps

30k dps is usually assumed to be the "bar" that most players would aim for in group content

the dps numbers im speaking are solo, against say a 6 mil dummy, not the trial dummy

for reference, 30k dps on the 6 mil dummy is ~55-60k dps on a trial dummy, which is usually considered the absolutely minimum for vet content

most normal content is scaled to 10-15k dps (~20-25k dps on trial dummy), which is honestly really really low bar, using my example of my tank character im almost meeting the dps requirements of normal (and i have in fact solo'd every group dungeon normal with that character that does not have ridiculous multi-person mechanics)

Shara_Wynn · June 25

Dragonnord wrote: »

Shara_Wynn wrote: »

@Dragonnord You can't say that someone is wrong, just because you disagree with them. It is not for you tell anyone else, how to experience a game, an event, the world. You are entitled to your opinion but so are other players. If another player doesn't like doing trials, or are in some way intimidated by them, then they don't like doing trials and that's ok. You can disagree with them but that doesn't make them wrong.

We all need to remember that we are all individuals. What is easy for you, isn't necessarily so easy for others.

I have had someone on these forums tell me that nHoF was as easy as FG1 and that it was impossible to wipe in it (their lived experience). Well, I did nHoF with a PUG and it wiped three times on the final boss (my lived experience).

I'm sorry but I don't agree with you. They are wrong, yes. If they find it difficult that doesn't mean it is difficult. With ALL DUE RESPECT, they are then below the line of skill needed to complete an easy content as an old normal trial is.

If I say the sun is small because I see it very small, if I say it's green because to my eyes it looks green, if I say its rays are cold becasue I fell them cold on my skin, it doesn't matter, the sun is big, yellow and hot, so I'm wrong regardless how I see it and feel it.

If I put 4 little kids to complete Fungal Grotto 1 they will say "Oh! Mommy! This is so difficult!". And Fungal Grotto is not difficult, regardless what the kids say.

Go ask in zone chat: "Hey guys! Is Fungal Grott 1 difficult?" If you get 100 responses, I'm sure the 100 will be that it is not, and what are you going to say? The same to me that "You can't say Fungal Grotto 1 is difficult because for you it's easy"?

For me, things have a general, known and set level of difficulty, regardless personal opinions and personal skill levels.

Again that is your opinion. Everything you have just said. Opinion. None of it is fact. And no they are not wrong. There is no way that you can objectively know how difficult another finds something that you find easy because that is an entirely subjective experience. If someone finds something difficult, then it is difficult, for them and it doesn't really matter if you find it easy, as you are not them.

joseayalac · June 25

Have you tried having the initiative and making the GF entry yourself? I often do it (even as a lonely dps) and people show up quite swiftly, be it normal or veteran.

You should try it and see for yourself.

lostineternity · June 25

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

It is weird cuz for Trials, for whatever reason ZOS decided to not go with the automated MM system, but rather with "player controlled" lobby system - which is not good as it means that a lot of players are excluded from this system and have no chances in participating (example: Aracanist or DK will almost always picked vs for example NB tank etc, or some guild mates will be prioritize). It is almost as if ZOS wanted to keep the illusion of elite hard end game content so that end game PvE players would not feel like "casuals" can do that content too lol.

You have no idea what are you talking about. No one is excluded at all. Normal trial parties pick up everyone who wants. I saw HA guys, vampires, werewolves even guys with pvp builds. Don't spread misinformation.

notyuu · June 26

Places where lead drops are "fine"
-delve bosses
-pd bosses
-treasure chests
-harvesting nodes
-mobs
-dungeons
-world bosses
-arenas

Places where lead drops are not "fine"
-Trials
-treasure map treasure chests
-publicly open sing item spawn (plae order scroll for example)
-safe boxes
-dragons

If zos kept this I mind it'd removed the pressure of "farm the lead from the drop source that needs many people and thus is only viable to casually get with the first 2 weeks of the doc dropping" this making the whole experience vastly more rnjoyable

Metafae · June 26

I was doing achievement hunting for the new zone and noticed that this mythic was needed for some of them.

I literally just opened the group finder, saw no current groups, created one for nHoF (stating it was a lead run).

After 2 mins, the first person joined, I said, "Welcome, it might take a little while to fill the group". They replied, "That's fine, I'm just doing x y z while we wait"

After 10-15 minutes, the group was full, the tank that joined said he didn't need another tank and so I edited the group to only need one, which sped up the process.

We then went inside the trial, completed it in about 20-30 minutes and everyone got their lead. Easy.

There is no reason why you cannot do exactly this too.

I actually had more trouble getting the lead that dropped from the geysers in Summerset, had to do two and a half laps of the zone doing them before it dropped. Everything else dropped first try, no lie.

TaSheen · June 26

Metafae wrote: »

I was doing achievement hunting for the new zone and noticed that this mythic was needed for some of them.

I literally just opened the group finder, saw no current groups, created one for nHoF (stating it was a lead run).

After 2 mins, the first person joined, I said, "Welcome, it might take a little while to fill the group". They replied, "That's fine, I'm just doing x y z while we wait"

After 10-15 minutes, the group was full, the tank that joined said he didn't need another tank and so I edited the group to only need one, which sped up the process.

We then went inside the trial, completed it in about 20-30 minutes and everyone got their lead. Easy.

There is no reason why you cannot do exactly this too.

I actually had more trouble getting the lead that dropped from the geysers in Summerset, had to do two and a half laps of the zone doing them before it dropped. Everything else dropped first try, no lie.

I *think* the ability to get a group for that trial may be more a function of when one plays. I could probably (if I wanted the lead - I don't) get into a group on PC EU because there I'm always playing on peak. PC NA, I never play on peak so it might be somewhat more difficult....

Dragonnord · June 26

Shara_Wynn wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

Shara_Wynn wrote: »

@Dragonnord You can't say that someone is wrong, just because you disagree with them. It is not for you tell anyone else, how to experience a game, an event, the world. You are entitled to your opinion but so are other players. If another player doesn't like doing trials, or are in some way intimidated by them, then they don't like doing trials and that's ok. You can disagree with them but that doesn't make them wrong.

We all need to remember that we are all individuals. What is easy for you, isn't necessarily so easy for others.

I have had someone on these forums tell me that nHoF was as easy as FG1 and that it was impossible to wipe in it (their lived experience). Well, I did nHoF with a PUG and it wiped three times on the final boss (my lived experience).

I'm sorry but I don't agree with you. They are wrong, yes. If they find it difficult that doesn't mean it is difficult. With ALL DUE RESPECT, they are then below the line of skill needed to complete an easy content as an old normal trial is.

If I say the sun is small because I see it very small, if I say it's green because to my eyes it looks green, if I say its rays are cold becasue I fell them cold on my skin, it doesn't matter, the sun is big, yellow and hot, so I'm wrong regardless how I see it and feel it.

If I put 4 little kids to complete Fungal Grotto 1 they will say "Oh! Mommy! This is so difficult!". And Fungal Grotto is not difficult, regardless what the kids say.

Go ask in zone chat: "Hey guys! Is Fungal Grott 1 difficult?" If you get 100 responses, I'm sure the 100 will be that it is not, and what are you going to say? The same to me that "You can't say Fungal Grotto 1 is difficult because for you it's easy"?

For me, things have a general, known and set level of difficulty, regardless personal opinions and personal skill levels.

Again that is your opinion. Everything you have just said. Opinion. None of it is fact. And no they are not wrong. There is no way that you can objectively know how difficult another finds something that you find easy because that is an entirely subjective experience. If someone finds something difficult, then it is difficult, for them and it doesn't really matter if you find it easy, as you are not them.

Funny that what I say is wrong but at the same time you say "No, they are not wrong". So I can say they are wrong and it's not valid but you can tell me that I'm wrong and that they are not wrong and it's valid.

Following your logic then, I can tell you that everything you are saying to me is wrong.

So Shara, what you are telling me is completely wrong, because is subjetcive blah, blah, blah.

There you are.

By the way, please do not derail the thread anymore, because that's what is happening here with you caring so much for what I say.

Shara_Wynn · June 26

Dragonnord wrote: »

Shara_Wynn wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

Shara_Wynn wrote: »

@Dragonnord You can't say that someone is wrong, just because you disagree with them. It is not for you tell anyone else, how to experience a game, an event, the world. You are entitled to your opinion but so are other players. If another player doesn't like doing trials, or are in some way intimidated by them, then they don't like doing trials and that's ok. You can disagree with them but that doesn't make them wrong.

We all need to remember that we are all individuals. What is easy for you, isn't necessarily so easy for others.

I have had someone on these forums tell me that nHoF was as easy as FG1 and that it was impossible to wipe in it (their lived experience). Well, I did nHoF with a PUG and it wiped three times on the final boss (my lived experience).

I'm sorry but I don't agree with you. They are wrong, yes. If they find it difficult that doesn't mean it is difficult. With ALL DUE RESPECT, they are then below the line of skill needed to complete an easy content as an old normal trial is.

If I say the sun is small because I see it very small, if I say it's green because to my eyes it looks green, if I say its rays are cold becasue I fell them cold on my skin, it doesn't matter, the sun is big, yellow and hot, so I'm wrong regardless how I see it and feel it.

If I put 4 little kids to complete Fungal Grotto 1 they will say "Oh! Mommy! This is so difficult!". And Fungal Grotto is not difficult, regardless what the kids say.

Go ask in zone chat: "Hey guys! Is Fungal Grott 1 difficult?" If you get 100 responses, I'm sure the 100 will be that it is not, and what are you going to say? The same to me that "You can't say Fungal Grotto 1 is difficult because for you it's easy"?

For me, things have a general, known and set level of difficulty, regardless personal opinions and personal skill levels.

Again that is your opinion. Everything you have just said. Opinion. None of it is fact. And no they are not wrong. There is no way that you can objectively know how difficult another finds something that you find easy because that is an entirely subjective experience. If someone finds something difficult, then it is difficult, for them and it doesn't really matter if you find it easy, as you are not them.

Funny that what I say is wrong but at the same time you say "No, they are not wrong". So I can say they are wrong and it's not valid but you can tell me that I'm wrong and that they are not wrong and it's valid.

I never said you were wrong, I said that they weren't wrong and that your opinion doesn't constitute a fact.

Dragonnord wrote: »

Following your logic then, I can tell you that everything you are saying to me is wrong.

Not sure you are following any logic there because the general point of what I said was that no one can say anyone is wrong about a subjective experience. But you are as entitled to air a subjective opinion as the next person (that still doesn't make it an object fact).

Dragonnord wrote: »

So Shara, what you are telling me is completely wrong, because is subjetcive blah, blah, blah.

There you are.

No that is not what I am telling you.

Dragonnord wrote: »

By the way, please do not derail the thread anymore, because that's what is happening here with you caring so much for what I say.

Also I wasn't trying to derail the thread. Initially I was agreeing with the original poster that finding a trial group in Craglorn or via the Group Finder outside of peak times is difficult and sometimes nigh on impossible. I was also agreeing with another poster that the bar has been raised. This is very much the case as the "Savior of..." achievement has never been locked behind a trial before.

You (and others) made the point about how easy you (and they) thought nHoF is. I disagreed with you and made the counter point that it is not for you to tell others how to feel. If you don't think that it is difficult, but others do, that doesn't make you right and them wrong, it just means that you both have different experiences of the content.

You (and others) are also of the opinion, that it is quite easy to get 11 other people together for a trial group. However, in my experience, during the times I play, I do not find that to be the case.

As such I agree with the OP in that I also wish that ZOS would stop putting mythic leads behind trials as many will struggle to obtain those leads, for a variety of reasons I am sure. And yes, that is also just my opinion.