Tired of the Player Market System

Arrodisia · June 23

Monopoly = the "exclusive" possession or control of the supply of or trade in a commodity or service.

If any player can find items in ESO under those prices, which I and others do. Then there is no monopoly and there is no exclusive possession or control of supply. It's that simple.

Nharimlur_Finor · June 23

Pelanora wrote: »

I am amazed that in pc eu in alinor the same guilds have held the slots for years. How even is that possible.

They charge their members a fee to use the trader. Either a minimum sales figure; or a 'mandatory donation'.

The status quo exists because players continue to support this model. I get better sales from my guild store in Grahtwood, than any trader in Mournhold.

The situation in Mournhold and Vivec is based around sellers who want maximum exposure to purchasers who don't want to spend the time going to lesser trading spots. Presumably most customers in these two locations have so much money they don't really notice or care about the extra cost.

The worst guilds are those that offer 'tax back' to their 'top traders'. This means the rest of the guild carries the top seller(s).
Quite often the Top Seller is also one of the guild admins, if not the owner...

Jaimeh · June 24

It took me a long time to engage with the guild traders because I was really confused about everything in the game at first, and although I've eventually bought and sold a lot of things over the years, I'm nowhere near as savvy as the players who play the economy, and I have no idea how trading guilds work and how bidding goes on etc. However, I have to say I like the fact that the economy is a mini game on its own, despite not really participating in it. It's another way that people can engage with the game and even though I don't really play the economy I don't mind that others do and profit. It's down to individual preference of assigning game time, and I think it's actually really cool that it's a more complex system and that, like everything in the game, if you put time and effort, you get rewarded by it.

Arrodisia · June 24

LaintalAy wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

I am amazed that in pc eu in alinor the same guilds have held the slots for years. How even is that possible.

The worst guilds are those that offer 'tax back' to their 'top traders'. This means the rest of the guild carries the top seller(s).
Quite often the Top Seller is also one of the guild admins, if not the owner...

This blanket statement is simply not true, at least not on PC EU. Usually, the GM's, Admins and loyal donators foot the extra pay out with their own personal gold from sales. One of the guilds I'm currently in is offering 125% tax back to top sellers. GM and Admin sales don't even count. It's even written in the Message of the Day.

barney2525 · June 24

not gonna happen.

the players who dedicate their play time to making millions of gold will show up on this list with " claims " of how bad an AH is and how wonderful this system is, and of course will "claim" this is what the majority wants.

They also will invent different imagined detriments of the AH system and extoll how so much "better" this system is. They will claim its so easy to manipulate an AH and not so for the Trader system.

And of course no actual evidence is ever shown, one way or the other.

Played in a number of mmos. All the others used an AH. Never... let me repeat, Never... had any issues with it. Might have some level requirement (like 10th) to be able to sell or buy, but that was a minimal issue. It is always a better system to give ALL players instant access to an AH, and to be able to locate the item and lowest price for the item you want, and do it in 3 minutes or less. That is what an AH does.

But unless the Company can be convinced that this is a QOL issue that will improve the game, Nothing is going to change.

barney2525 · June 24

vsrs_au wrote: »

A centralised market would certainly be immersion-breaking and non-lore friendly, because this is supposed to be a continent on which three factions at war with each other, so why would they share a common trading system?

As compared with the "Lore" of any character from any Faction being able to travel into the Enemy's territory and freely buy items that can be used against that Faction? And to freely allow them to come into your territory and you very willingly sell them items that they will use against Your Faction?

I'm not seeing the rationale.

kargen27 · June 24

barney2525 wrote: »

not gonna happen.

the players who dedicate their play time to making millions of gold will show up on this list with " claims " of how bad an AH is and how wonderful this system is, and of course will "claim" this is what the majority wants.

They also will invent different imagined detriments of the AH system and extoll how so much "better" this system is. They will claim its so easy to manipulate an AH and not so for the Trader system.

And of course no actual evidence is ever shown, one way or the other.

Played in a number of mmos. All the others used an AH. Never... let me repeat, Never... had any issues with it. Might have some level requirement (like 10th) to be able to sell or buy, but that was a minimal issue. It is always a better system to give ALL players instant access to an AH, and to be able to locate the item and lowest price for the item you want, and do it in 3 minutes or less. That is what an AH does.

But unless the Company can be convinced that this is a QOL issue that will improve the game, Nothing is going to change.

Okay which is easier going to 200 different locations or going to one location? Answer that one question and you have the evidence you need as to why this system is harder to manipulate than a central economy would be.

Nharimlur_Finor · June 24

Arrodisia wrote: »

LaintalAy wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

I am amazed that in pc eu in alinor the same guilds have held the slots for years. How even is that possible.

The worst guilds are those that offer 'tax back' to their 'top traders'. This means the rest of the guild carries the top seller(s).
Quite often the Top Seller is also one of the guild admins, if not the owner...

This blanket statement is simply not true, at least not on PC EU. Usually, the GM's, Admins and loyal donators foot the extra pay out with their own personal gold from sales. One of the guilds I'm currently in is offering 125% tax back to top sellers. GM and Admin sales don't even count. It's even written in the Message of the Day.

I'll restate: If the top seller(s) get their tax refunded and I don't; then I'm carrying them.
In some guilds these players are part of the admin structure.

I'll gladly acknowledge that in your example, that isn't the case.
The fact that this guild needs to reinforce this in their MOTD, does somewhat confirm my assertion, however.

All this angst, just to support the ridiculous notion of a 'regular trading spot'.

I recently rejoined a guild that has been around for most of ESO's history and spent much of that time in Belkarth, back in the days when Belkarth was a premier location. This guild is now in Wrothgar and still has 450+ players.

Arrodisia · June 25

kargen27 wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

not gonna happen.

the players who dedicate their play time to making millions of gold will show up on this list with " claims " of how bad an AH is and how wonderful this system is, and of course will "claim" this is what the majority wants.

They also will invent different imagined detriments of the AH system and extoll how so much "better" this system is. They will claim its so easy to manipulate an AH and not so for the Trader system.

And of course no actual evidence is ever shown, one way or the other.

Played in a number of mmos. All the others used an AH. Never... let me repeat, Never... had any issues with it. Might have some level requirement (like 10th) to be able to sell or buy, but that was a minimal issue. It is always a better system to give ALL players instant access to an AH, and to be able to locate the item and lowest price for the item you want, and do it in 3 minutes or less. That is what an AH does.

But unless the Company can be convinced that this is a QOL issue that will improve the game, Nothing is going to change.

Okay which is easier going to 200 different locations or going to one location? Answer that one question and you have the evidence you need as to why this system is harder to manipulate than a central economy would be.

This is very logical and easy to understand. You saved me time to have write about this fact. ty.

Arrodisia · June 25

LaintalAy wrote: »

Arrodisia wrote: »

LaintalAy wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

I am amazed that in pc eu in alinor the same guilds have held the slots for years. How even is that possible.

The worst guilds are those that offer 'tax back' to their 'top traders'. This means the rest of the guild carries the top seller(s).
Quite often the Top Seller is also one of the guild admins, if not the owner...

This blanket statement is simply not true, at least not on PC EU. Usually, the GM's, Admins and loyal donators foot the extra pay out with their own personal gold from sales. One of the guilds I'm currently in is offering 125% tax back to top sellers. GM and Admin sales don't even count. It's even written in the Message of the Day.

I'll restate: If the top seller(s) get their tax refunded and I don't; then I'm carrying them.
In some guilds these players are part of the admin structure.

I'll gladly acknowledge that in your example, that isn't the case.
The fact that this guild needs to reinforce this in their MOTD, does somewhat confirm my assertion, however.

All this angst, just to support the ridiculous notion of a 'regular trading spot'.

I recently rejoined a guild that has been around for most of ESO's history and spent much of that time in Belkarth, back in the days when Belkarth was a premier location. This guild is now in Wrothgar and still has 450+ players.

It has always been written there, since players want to know if they stand a chance to win something for the effort. It's general online skepticism. The guild received that exact set of questions often enough. Otherwise, why should players bother participating in high sales more often. In game items are expensive in any game. The admins feel. Those, who put extra effort into selling, should benefit the same as in any other part of the game.

It's a simple thing. If you grind dungeons wouldn't you want items from the dungeons? So if you grind sales wouldn't you want to gain something from sales? A lot of content in MMO's is created to be repeatable. Trade is no different and should be just as rewarding and fun.

shadyjane62 · June 25

I just spend two hrs going from trader to trader to try and find the motif I needed for a master writ.

If we had an auction house it would have taken 30 seconds.

I truly hate the guild trader system, it seems designed to benefit certain guilds and be a pain for the rest of us.

kargen27 · June 25

shadyjane62 wrote: »

I just spend two hrs going from trader to trader to try and find the motif I needed for a master writ.

If we had an auction house it would have taken 30 seconds.

I truly hate the guild trader system, it seems designed to benefit certain guilds and be a pain for the rest of us.

and if it were a rare motif good chance you wouldn't be able to afford it. Rare items get expensive quick with a central location.

Arrodisia · June 25

That's strange. I needed at least 10 motifs for the 40+ master writs I did throughout the week and I found all of them well priced within 30-35 mins in one swoop. I should say I also bought other items inside of that time.

TaSheen · June 25

shadyjane62 wrote: »

I just spend two hrs going from trader to trader to try and find the motif I needed for a master writ.

If we had an auction house it would have taken 30 seconds.

I truly hate the guild trader system, it seems designed to benefit certain guilds and be a pain for the rest of us.

I won't do that. If it's not available in Vivec at what I consider a reasonable price, I delete the writ.

Murdoc · June 25

I have been trading for years now and I think Guild Traders has run its course. Items aren't selling like they used to but the cost of getting good trading spots keeps increasing. I wish the game did have an auction house so this never-ending cycle of having the best trading spot would end.

the1andonlyskwex · June 25

kargen27 wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

not gonna happen.

the players who dedicate their play time to making millions of gold will show up on this list with " claims " of how bad an AH is and how wonderful this system is, and of course will "claim" this is what the majority wants.

They also will invent different imagined detriments of the AH system and extoll how so much "better" this system is. They will claim its so easy to manipulate an AH and not so for the Trader system.

And of course no actual evidence is ever shown, one way or the other.

Played in a number of mmos. All the others used an AH. Never... let me repeat, Never... had any issues with it. Might have some level requirement (like 10th) to be able to sell or buy, but that was a minimal issue. It is always a better system to give ALL players instant access to an AH, and to be able to locate the item and lowest price for the item you want, and do it in 3 minutes or less. That is what an AH does.

But unless the Company can be convinced that this is a QOL issue that will improve the game, Nothing is going to change.

Okay which is easier going to 200 different locations or going to one location? Answer that one question and you have the evidence you need as to why this system is harder to manipulate than a central economy would be.

You don't need to manipulate all 200 traders, you just have to manipulate the dozen or so in the 2-3 biggest cities. The market fragmentation makes it impossible for people to comparison shop (especially on consoles), making it easier for unscrupulous sellers to take advantage of the average buyer's lack of information.

In an AH system, everyone can see the going rate for items, and there are too many items in the market for one person to manipulate it.

Nharimlur_Finor · June 25

shadyjane62 wrote: »

I just spend two hrs going from trader to trader to try and find the motif I needed for a master writ.

If we had an auction house it would have taken 30 seconds.

I truly hate the guild trader system, it seems designed to benefit certain guilds and be a pain for the rest of us.

The ZOS ESO design consists of two things:

Guilds with 50 or more players can place items for sale TO EACH OTHER.
Guilds with 50 or more players can on occasion apply for a trading kiosk for a period of one week, TO SELL TO PLAYERS OUTSIDE THE GUILD.

EVERYTHING ELSE ABOUT THE TRADING SYSTEM IS A CORRUPTION OF THOSE TWO ELEMENTS BY PLAYERS THEMSELVES.

Bidding on the same location, week after week.
Insisting that players generate a minimum sales amount.
Threatening those players with expulsion if they don't meet the guild requirements.

all these things are player constructs and have nothing to do with ZOS or the basic ESO trading system design.

So your assertion that:

it seems designed to benefit certain guilds

is totally and utterly FALSE.

You are always free to create your own guild and encourage your members to farm the variety of items that you feel would be useful to you and your guild.

to try and find the motif I needed for a master writ.

That's because the Master Writs are technically QUESTS. You are actually expected to hunt the motif down yourself and not rely on someone else maybe having it for sale.

You'd have something real to complain about if ZOS changed master writs to be Bound items...

Meiox · June 25

PC players who like the guild trader system, should maybe uninstall all guild trader addons for 1 month and then we can talk again, how good this system is ;-)

notyuu · June 25

Meiox wrote: »

PC players who like the guild trader system, should maybe uninstall all guild trader addons for 1 month and then we can talk again, how good this system is ;-)

Sure, and if they ever add a trial period with a central AH you better be ready to pay 150k per unit for heartwood cuz that's what I'll charge ya after buying all of it up

that's only a half joke, personally I have no interest in making coin due to lack of things to spend it on, but there are many others that would do the above with things, tripots, tempering alloy, mindane runes, roe...ect...ect..

Northwold · June 25

kargen27 wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

not gonna happen.

the players who dedicate their play time to making millions of gold will show up on this list with " claims " of how bad an AH is and how wonderful this system is, and of course will "claim" this is what the majority wants.

They also will invent different imagined detriments of the AH system and extoll how so much "better" this system is. They will claim its so easy to manipulate an AH and not so for the Trader system.

And of course no actual evidence is ever shown, one way or the other.

Played in a number of mmos. All the others used an AH. Never... let me repeat, Never... had any issues with it. Might have some level requirement (like 10th) to be able to sell or buy, but that was a minimal issue. It is always a better system to give ALL players instant access to an AH, and to be able to locate the item and lowest price for the item you want, and do it in 3 minutes or less. That is what an AH does.

But unless the Company can be convinced that this is a QOL issue that will improve the game, Nothing is going to change.

Okay which is easier going to 200 different locations or going to one location? Answer that one question and you have the evidence you need as to why this system is harder to manipulate than a central economy would be.

Er, this logic works in support of both arguments. Why? Because if the system is so unappealing to casual buyers that they don't shop like this (and they don't), it leaves the system wide open to players who make trading their whole game and spend their whole time flipping, etc. The whole point of markets and market economies is to make economies behave efficiently by pooling information and goods in one place. ESO doesn't have one -- trading is artificially atomised across many different traders and artificially made inaccessible to people who, for obvious reasons, are unwilling to spend an hour plus shopping -- and therefore leaves inefficiencies open to exploitation by those with a desire to do so.

In effect, the trading system doesn't distribute the bulk of the market around a lot of different locations, it artificially concentrates it around a few heavily visited locations with a lot of traders in one place, meaning the whole player economy is disproportionately impacted by a small proportion of all the traders (and goods for sale) out there in the world.

Now, is it a good thing or a bad thing that ESO's trading system makes such distortions possible? That's really in the eye of the beholder. But, honestly, I think ESO went badly down the wrong path with trading by turning it into a mini game. This is an MMO. Trading is a system that, in theory, is meant to support all other aspects of play. Instead, they turned it into a game inandof itself, and that creates annoyances for how you play everything else.

It's not quite of the same level of import, but in MMO terms it's not that far off locking inventory management behind a mini game. It's just plain daft for an MMO that is not overtly an MMO themed around trading.

Meiox · June 25

notyuu wrote: »

Meiox wrote: »

PC players who like the guild trader system, should maybe uninstall all guild trader addons for 1 month and then we can talk again, how good this system is ;-)

Sure, and if they ever add a trial period with a central AH you better be ready to pay 150k per unit for heartwood cuz that's what I'll charge ya after buying all of it up
that's only a half joke, personally I have no interest in making coin due to lack of things to spend it on, but there are many others that would do the above with things, tripots, tempering alloy, mindane runes, roe...ect...ect..

If this behavior is not what is wanted, shouldn't addons like TTC be banned?

the1andonlyskwex · June 25

Meiox wrote: »

notyuu wrote: »

Meiox wrote: »

PC players who like the guild trader system, should maybe uninstall all guild trader addons for 1 month and then we can talk again, how good this system is ;-)

Sure, and if they ever add a trial period with a central AH you better be ready to pay 150k per unit for heartwood cuz that's what I'll charge ya after buying all of it up
that's only a half joke, personally I have no interest in making coin due to lack of things to spend it on, but there are many others that would do the above with things, tripots, tempering alloy, mindane runes, roe...ect...ect..

If this behavior is not what is wanted, shouldn't addons like TTC be banned?

Also, one person being able to afford all of the Heartwood in the entire economy sounds like a problem created by the current market structure, not a problem with a global AH.

Cheveyo · June 25

Elsonso wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

CrashTest wrote: »

No to a centralized auction house because it just makes it easier for the rich players to monopolize the market.

A better option would be to add the functionality of Tamriel Trade Centre to the game, so we don't have to use third party sites to find things for sale. We can just search from within the game and be done with it. This also helps console players who can't use addons.

I will ask again, can you provide some "proof" of the monopolization argument and way that does not happen now?

Having come from WoW, where a single addon can monitor the entire faction AH for the server... the system here is 10x better. People could monopolize the system by just standing in the auction house in Stormwind or Orgimmar and letting the addon run. They never had to leave, and it was better if they didn't. The addon gave them real time market information.

There is no real time market information here. The scope of information available to any one player is smaller. It is much harder to collect and more work to control. Do people do the best they can to monopolize? Of course, but it would be much easier for them if ZOS would simply tell them everything that was for sale in real time so they could buy it A.S.A.P.

A single add on can monitor the AH on a server, but what the add on cannot do is control other players. The addon cannot force players to sell at a certain price. Especially since the vast majority of the people playing WoW do NOT use that add on. This is why you constantly see the market watchers throwing tantrums on the forums about players constantly under cutting them.

On the other hand, the current system in ESO has created a small group of players who control all of the wealth in game. They decide the prices, they decide who gets to make money and who doesn't. They decide who gets to sell where and who does not. This is why they're so happy with the current system. There are people with millions upon millions of gold. They've got so much gold they could pay for dozens of new players' entire gear set, get them every home in game that's purchasable by gold, and set them up with a nice amount of spending money, while still having more money than god.

And then there's me, struggling to buy all of the those scribing tomes, because I don't have enough gold to pay 50k a dozen times. Hell, getting 100k from the monthly reward thing was a god send. It means I can buy 2 more. Of course, this also means all my characters are going to be sitting below 20k gold for quite a while going forward.

If we had the global auction house and didn't need to join a guild, I'd be able to make a bit of money and buy stuff I needed. I wouldn't be making millions because I don't have the patience or desire to play the market. But I'd make enough to get by, instead of basically living paycheck to paycheck in a video game. I delete the majority of the crafting writs I get because I cannot afford to buy the needed materials. Hell, I haven't even bothered opening a writ in so long I can't remember the last time I did one.

Meiox · June 25

If a global auction house is not wanted, a global search would be helpfull, which would be basically the same as TTC.
It would also help guild trader in 'bad' spots to sell outside their guild

BretonMage · June 25

At an absolute minimum, players should not have to use a third party website to look for competitive prices. Whatever functionality TTC has, ZOS should provide it in-game.

Arrodisia · June 25

Murdoc wrote: »

I have been trading for years now and I think Guild Traders has run its course. Items aren't selling like they used to but the cost of getting good trading spots keeps increasing. I wish the game did have an auction house so this never-ending cycle of having the best trading spot would end.

I have been wondering why sales volume and prices are general dropping but trader costs are still going up? Who could possibly benefit from bids increasing? I saw vendors requirements at +700k a week to support bids on vivec recently. 2 years ago that same vendor was only 400-500k and 1 year before that 150-250k. This is a huge change for the same exact spot in Vivec. It just seems to be an excessive change. What could've caused the bids to go so high on that one spot and more importantly shouldn't the devs do something to deter this and to deter ghost guilds (essentially completely inactive guilds overbidding) at the same time.

I don't agree with 'guild traders having run their course' completely. However, I do think. They should tweak some aspects of how bidding functions, and add a fleshed out guild system encouraging and rewarding players for engaging with guild play. Plus, increase member capacity, increase bank space with multiple tabs. 500 spaces isn't enough for 100 players much less 500.

BlueRaven · June 25

The prices are all market dependent. There is no hidden cabal controlling prices. There is zero proof of this. 200 different stores all filled with different players. You can’t control that.

If you don’t like the prices on traders, go farm the item yourself. The prices reflect what people are willing to pay vs going out and getting it. Plain and simple.

I can’t remember the last time I actually purchased ANYTHING on a trader. A master writ requires something I don’t have? I sell it. A piece of furniture requires a mat I don’t have? I farm it.

If prices are too high for you, get the gold or get it yourself.

notyuu · June 25

Meiox wrote: »

notyuu wrote: »

Meiox wrote: »

PC players who like the guild trader system, should maybe uninstall all guild trader addons for 1 month and then we can talk again, how good this system is ;-)

Sure, and if they ever add a trial period with a central AH you better be ready to pay 150k per unit for heartwood cuz that's what I'll charge ya after buying all of it up
that's only a half joke, personally I have no interest in making coin due to lack of things to spend it on, but there are many others that would do the above with things, tripots, tempering alloy, mindane runes, roe...ect...ect..

If this behavior is not what is wanted, shouldn't addons like TTC be banned?

TTC only allows for the aquiring of information for pricing, plsu it has a notable delay meaning it usually lists what isn't selling due to pricing or low demand, still even if said delay was removed it wouldn't allow the user to magically zip about to every trader in the game to take up every instance of a pictular item, where as with a central AH you could literally park a bot on it and have to buy up every single listing of item X as soon as it appeared on the market

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Meiox wrote: »

notyuu wrote: »

Meiox wrote: »

PC players who like the guild trader system, should maybe uninstall all guild trader addons for 1 month and then we can talk again, how good this system is ;-)

Sure, and if they ever add a trial period with a central AH you better be ready to pay 150k per unit for heartwood cuz that's what I'll charge ya after buying all of it up
that's only a half joke, personally I have no interest in making coin due to lack of things to spend it on, but there are many others that would do the above with things, tripots, tempering alloy, mindane runes, roe...ect...ect..

If this behavior is not what is wanted, shouldn't addons like TTC be banned?

Also, one person being able to afford all of the Heartwood in the entire economy sounds like a problem created by the current market structure, not a problem with a global AH.

Try less caused by the market structure and more caused by a lack of effective gold sinks in the game combined with how laughably easy it is to generate gold in game leading to acculimation of wealth if you're willing to put in more than 1 hour of 0 effort per day.

jaws343 · June 25

A little anecdote I always remember every time this discussion comes up.

Back in like early 2018 I think it was, around when Necropotence was thriving and the staves were hot commodities in the right traits. I had just reached 4 million gold in the bank and noticed that the staves were selling for around 40K off trait and around 70K with the right trait.

Well, I was newly filled with gold and decided I would attempt to make some more. So, I spent around 10 hours across 3 days going to every single trader in the game. All of them, in thieves guilds, in back country stalls. I bought every single listed necropotence stave in every trader that was priced under 30K. I think I spent close to 2.5M on staves, somewhere near 100+ staves I bought.

I then listed all of the off trait ones at 40K and all of the good traits at 60K... Ended up doubling my investment for the most part. But, within a week, the off trait staves stopped selling. Why? Because I wasn't running a monopoly, I was flipping poorly priced items at a more normalized market value. But, that week from when I last bought a poorly priced stave to when I noticed mine stopped selling well, other players had listed their own staves at more bargain pricing.

I still made profit, and was eventually able to sell them all (after lowering the pricing down to 30-35K. But, ultimately, my only impact on the market was a brief moment of listings a ton of initially under-priced items at a price that capital city traders were regularly selling those items at.

And this is why a monopoly here just isn't an actual thing. With an AH, I could have sat in one location, and purchased any listing that was lower than the listings I had up, all the time, without effort. In perpetuity, or until the item is no longer sought after. And then, the most common lowest priced item in the market will ALWAYS be the one I posted. Rather than the ones posted by tons of other players that take effort to seek out and relist.

shadyjane62 · June 25

kargen27 wrote: »

shadyjane62 wrote: »

I just spend two hrs going from trader to trader to try and find the motif I needed for a master writ.

If we had an auction house it would have taken 30 seconds.

I truly hate the guild trader system, it seems designed to benefit certain guilds and be a pain for the rest of us.

and if it were a rare motif good chance you wouldn't be able to afford it. Rare items get expensive quick with a central location.

I have 78 Million and 23 aetherial dusts in storage. I think I would be able to afford them.

Also I needed an Elder Argonian Shield Motif which proved to be remarkable absent from most traders.