Scribing is going to render the community insane (and not in the positive way)

Barovia87

Someone at ZoS has been pushing grinds to drive engagement (Jubilee Style Pages, Scribing apparently, etc) and I gotta say: I really hope they stop listening to this person. It's short-term gains over long-term retention. Every game I've seen veer into desperately enforced grinds was either well into, or kickstarting, their death-spiral.

Games are supposed to be fun. That is, in fact, the whole point. When that stops being the actual priority, you have failed as a game-developer. Players aren't stupid. We can tell when things are designed to waste our time &/or our money.

And that isn't fun.

the1andonlyskwex

If your interests are competitive and not RP, can't you just unlock the grimoires and scripts you actually want to use, instead of all of them? It seems like that would tone the grind down a lot.

LunaFlora

virtus753 wrote: »

Can I ask someone to confirm I'm understanding the pricing right?

It's 45k per Grimoire for the 9 other than Soul Burst, which is 9k. That's 405k gold for the first set of Grimoires, not counting Soul Burst.



Then it's 10k per Grimoire on alts after you have acquired it for the first time on another character?

it's supposed to be 50k and 10k for soul burst.
it's 10% off because Zeal of Zenithar is being tested!

and Zeal of Zenithar is probably gonna happen late June so it is a good idea to not purchase all grimoires immediately if anyone wants that discount,
that would be like a week after console launch of Gold Road.

Gorø

Turns out it's 50k for grimoires THEN it's discounted to 10k gold when a char already has it

Gorø

Also turns out that the dailies have a hidden cooldown into them. Doing a FG daily gives a script but redoing another FG on another char doesn't give a script.
This is worse than before as, if you have 12 chars, the farm should take around a year.
What the [snip] ZOS????????????????????

Gorø

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

If your interests are competitive and not RP, can't you just unlock the grimoires and scripts you actually want to use, instead of all of them? It seems like that would tone the grind down a lot.

@the1andonlyskwex The scripts you're getting are random (excluding specific ones)

SilverBride

Nothing about this excites me. Just the opposite in fact. It's decreasing my interest in playing.

NeuroticPixels

Gorø wrote: »

Also turns out that the dailies have a hidden cooldown into them. Doing a FG daily gives a script but redoing another FG on another char doesn't give a script.
This is worse than before as, if you have 12 chars, the farm should take around a year.
What the [snip] ZOS????????????????????

Whoa. Can other PTS testers confirm this??

virtus753

Luminous Ink is dropping at a low but doable rate from non-survey nodes (4 in 486), but I can’t seem to get any from survey nodes (0 in 540). Has anyone gotten one from a survey?

For enemies I’m still looking for my first after more than 400 killed.

ETA: Up to 113 surveys (678 nodes) without Ink.

ETA2: Over 560 enemies without any Ink. I don't know what the drop chance is, but my drop rate is 0.00%. I've definitely done Wing of the Indrik, which is a prereq for Netch, which enables Ink from harvesting nodes. Doesn't seem worth it to me to try to farm mobs for this.

chessalavakia_ESO

NeuroticPixels wrote: »

Gorø wrote: »

Also turns out that the dailies have a hidden cooldown into them. Doing a FG daily gives a script but redoing another FG on another char doesn't give a script.
This is worse than before as, if you have 12 chars, the farm should take around a year.
What the [snip] ZOS????????????????????

Whoa. Can other PTS testers confirm this??

Unless something has changed in the past update that is how it functions.

So, yes you will be talking around two to three weeks of dallies per character to do scribing on it fully.

You also have the issue that ink isn't really common at least in the content I've done.

I'd assume it's the type of thing where if you want to get creative you do it on the PTS rather than Live because experimenting would be too expensive.

MidniteOwl1913

Whoa! Sooo glad I haven't pre-ordered Gold Road.

tsaescishoeshiner

virtus753 wrote: »

Luminous Ink is dropping at a low but doable rate from non-survey nodes (4 in 486), but I can’t seem to get any from survey nodes (0 in 540). Has anyone gotten one from a survey?

For enemies I’m still looking for my first after more than 400 killed.

4 in 486!! If it's that rare from the other sources, it's gonna make this something you can't experiment with and feel stuck with your skills a certain way. It's so nice to just experiment and play around on PTS. It doesn't have to be free, but it should be fun and not feel like a huge investment—like resetting skills or CP.

I'd almost rather there be a much higher/reliable droprate but a quantity limit, like 30 max or something—to give players room to experiment, but still encourage them to do content (like transmute stones).

virtus753

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

Luminous Ink is dropping at a low but doable rate from non-survey nodes (4 in 486), but I can’t seem to get any from survey nodes (0 in 540). Has anyone gotten one from a survey?

For enemies I’m still looking for my first after more than 400 killed.

4 in 486!! If it's that rare from the other sources, it's gonna make this something you can't experiment with and feel stuck with your skills a certain way. It's so nice to just experiment and play around on PTS. It doesn't have to be free, but it should be fun and not feel like a huge investment—like resetting skills or CP.

I'd almost rather there be a much higher/reliable droprate but a quantity limit, like 30 max or something—to give players room to experiment, but still encourage them to do content (like transmute stones).

Yeah, it's going to be tougher at first because so many players will want to experiment with Scribing when it's new. So even though Ink isn't bound, it can only be gotten with Gold Road and will be at a premium the first little while.

Once players have experimented enough (or given up on it), as they come by Ink through harvesting and/or killing monsters (which seems to have an even lower drop rate), then Ink will be more accessible through guild traders.

I do not know how soon Ink will be affordable on the market. The fact that I'm now up to 113 surveys without a drop is not encouraging. If it doesn't drop from surveys, then that's highly inconsistent with how surveys work as resource nodes for other purposes and is yet another artificial way of delaying progress (as if 450k gold to get the initial Grimoires and weeks spent grinding scripts were not enough...).

BlueRaven

There comes a point when something becomes so convoluted, slow, and annoying that it just becomes ignored.

They put so much work into this, but then make it so that no one wants to do it. It’s like the anniversary event all over again, instead of a touchdown they are trying to fumble the ball with just yards to go. It’s crazy.

EF321

Is daily cooldown for any script, or per type (focus/signature/affix)?

ZoeliTintanie

This will get improved, right?

Amottica

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

I never understood either why so many games these days hard lock competitive combat minmax stuff behind grinding casual non-combat activities like questing or crafting. These activities appeal to completely different player demographics that rarely overlap. The competitive combat players end up bored out of their minds feeling like they're wasting their time, the casual grind players lose interest because the rewards aren't important to them.

It is to get players interested in the rewards to do other stuff to get those rewards. Look at much of the reward system in ESO, and this becomes clear. A great example is Transmute crystals. They are rewarded via specific activities Zenimax wants to encourage players to do. A great many players do random dungeons to get them. Without that reward, far fewer people would be interested in doing dungeons day after day.

ZoeliTintanie

]

Amottica wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

I never understood either why so many games these days hard lock competitive combat minmax stuff behind grinding casual non-combat activities like questing or crafting. These activities appeal to completely different player demographics that rarely overlap. The competitive combat players end up bored out of their minds feeling like they're wasting their time, the casual grind players lose interest because the rewards aren't important to them.

It is to get players interested in the rewards to do other stuff to get those rewards. Look at much of the reward system in ESO, and this becomes clear. A great example is Transmute crystals. They are rewarded via specific activities Zenimax wants to encourage players to do. A great many players do random dungeons to get them. Without that reward, far fewer people would be interested in doing dungeons day after day.

This isn't to change a sentence on an item though. This is to create a skill from scratch, kinda like Jewelcrafting. What if this method was added to jewelcrafting and jewelcrafting certification? (using that as an example since that was part of an expansion release as well iirc)

The values on this stuff (skill scribing) have to be adjusted, these values cannot be the final ones, 1. its still pts, 2. it verges on painting a real bad perception, worse than the monetization-self-image ZoS has gained (according to numerous Youtube videos).
If this xpac launches with these values for ink/grimoires etc, the vid makers are going to have a field day with the negative videos on platforms that cannot be moderated.

KlauthWarthog

ZoeliTintanie wrote: »

This will get improved, right?

It is more likely to get monetized.

BergisMacBride

KlauthWarthog wrote: »

It is more likely to get monetized.

Bingo. If past practices are any guide, it’ll be a year or two before they put some of the stuff like ink, etc… in the crown store. Then after about 3-4 years they’ll start selling the scribing advancement for other chars.

I’ll get everything on my main in due course and then see if I want to grind any other chars afterwards. Since I’m not a min-max type, I’ll just take it slow. Too much other stuff to do in game anyways.

Amottica

ZoeliTintanie wrote: »

]

Amottica wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

I never understood either why so many games these days hard lock competitive combat minmax stuff behind grinding casual non-combat activities like questing or crafting. These activities appeal to completely different player demographics that rarely overlap. The competitive combat players end up bored out of their minds feeling like they're wasting their time, the casual grind players lose interest because the rewards aren't important to them.

It is to get players interested in the rewards to do other stuff to get those rewards. Look at much of the reward system in ESO, and this becomes clear. A great example is Transmute crystals. They are rewarded via specific activities Zenimax wants to encourage players to do. A great many players do random dungeons to get them. Without that reward, far fewer people would be interested in doing dungeons day after day.

This isn't to change a sentence on an item though. This is to create a skill from scratch, kinda like Jewelcrafting. What if this method was added to jewelcrafting and jewelcrafting certification? (using that as an example since that was part of an expansion release as well iirc)

The values on this stuff (skill scribing) have to be adjusted, these values cannot be the final ones, 1. its still pts, 2. it verges on painting a real bad perception, worse than the monetization-self-image ZoS has gained (according to numerous Youtube videos).
If this xpac launches with these values for ink/grimoires etc, the vid makers are going to have a field day with the negative videos on platforms that cannot be moderated.

ZoeliTintanie wrote: »

]

Amottica wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

I never understood either why so many games these days hard lock competitive combat minmax stuff behind grinding casual non-combat activities like questing or crafting. These activities appeal to completely different player demographics that rarely overlap. The competitive combat players end up bored out of their minds feeling like they're wasting their time, the casual grind players lose interest because the rewards aren't important to them.

It is to get players interested in the rewards to do other stuff to get those rewards. Look at much of the reward system in ESO, and this becomes clear. A great example is Transmute crystals. They are rewarded via specific activities Zenimax wants to encourage players to do. A great many players do random dungeons to get them. Without that reward, far fewer people would be interested in doing dungeons day after day.

This isn't to change a sentence on an item though. This is to create a skill from scratch, kinda like Jewelcrafting. What if this method was added to jewelcrafting and jewelcrafting certification? (using that as an example since that was part of an expansion release as well iirc)

The values on this stuff (skill scribing) have to be adjusted, these values cannot be the final ones, 1. its still pts, 2. it verges on painting a real bad perception, worse than the monetization-self-image ZoS has gained (according to numerous Youtube videos).
If this xpac launches with these values for ink/grimoires etc, the vid makers are going to have a field day with the negative videos on platforms that cannot be moderated.

What does this have to do with the content it is linked to? That is all my comment spoke to, and all the comment I replied to spoke of.

Maybe I am missing something so please do explain.

virtus753

Update on ink drop rates:

• Since completing Wing of the Indrik, I've killed over 1,000 enemies with zero ink to show for it. I counted 1,000 exactly from completing Wing of the Netch, and I had to kill some enemies in order to complete that quest.
• Since completing Wing of the Netch, I've gotten 4 ink from 564 non-survey resource nodes (I've collected a few more since my posts above). That's currently a rate of 0.71%. I got 0 ink from 678 survey nodes. If surveys are eligible to drop ink, then I've gotten 4 ink from 1242 resource nodes for a rate of 0.322%.

EF321

virtus753 wrote: »

Update on ink drop rates:

• Since completing Wing of the Indrik, I've killed over 1,000 enemies with zero ink to show for it. I counted 1,000 exactly from completing Wing of the Netch, and I had to kill some enemies in order to complete that quest.
• Since completing Wing of the Netch, I've gotten 4 ink from 564 non-survey resource nodes (I've collected a few more since my posts above). That's currently a rate of 0.71%. I got 0 ink from 678 survey nodes. If surveys are eligible to drop ink, then I've gotten 4 ink from 1242 resource nodes for a rate of 0.322%.

That's pretty sad.

tsaescishoeshiner

virtus753 wrote: »

Update on ink drop rates:

• Since completing Wing of the Indrik, I've killed over 1,000 enemies with zero ink to show for it. I counted 1,000 exactly from completing Wing of the Netch, and I had to kill some enemies in order to complete that quest.
• Since completing Wing of the Netch, I've gotten 4 ink from 564 non-survey resource nodes (I've collected a few more since my posts above). That's currently a rate of 0.71%. I got 0 ink from 678 survey nodes. If surveys are eligible to drop ink, then I've gotten 4 ink from 1242 resource nodes for a rate of 0.322%.

If Ink is a precious/grindy/expensive resource, I just won't be able to have much fun with it. I'm someone who's always going to want to change scribing abilities, like builds and outfits. But it it means using an item worth tens of thousands just to see what the fire morph feels like or how the immobilize works with a certain set ... it turns into a gold-saving decision instead of an experiment.

There should at least be a reliable drop for it—for example zone dailies (that tend to drop in popularity) or any queued activities (like how transmutes drop).

Hotdog_23

EF321 wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

Gorø wrote: »

In total, for the scribing system on 8 characters you need ~800K gold, ~408 quests and 400 scraps.
This is obviously not good. Especially if you have more than 8 characters.
Please just make the scripts and grimoires account learnt or at the very least only grimoires account learnt.

Are you saying PC NA finally has another gold sink???

That's hardly a gold sink, 2 mil per account once.

Real new gold sink is empty soul gems, 156 gold from merchant And less gold generated by vendoring filled gems.

Thats a big Big gold sink for most console accounts. Really hope it in not that expensive on consoles.

Stay safe

BlueRaven

ZoeliTintanie wrote: »

This will get improved, right?

There is a chance it might. But the PTS is kind of infamous now of ignoring any feedback that is not bug related.

BergisMacBride

BlueRaven wrote: »

ZoeliTintanie wrote: »

This will get improved, right?

There is a chance it might. But the PTS is kind of infamous now of ignoring any feedback that is not bug related.

Agreed. They'll most likely change the drop rate later as a QOL upgrade, like they did with Jewelcrafting platings. ZOS usually doesn't like to change most of the stuff like this on PTS before release.

xylena_lazarow

Unironically I would be extremely happy to simply buy Grimoires for Crowns. I'm not buying if I have to grind quests.

I am a PvPer, I do not care about grinding quests or "rewards" I simply want to be competitive in PvP, and it would be a ton of fun to tune PvP builds having access to the parts of the system I need. Other games do this and make money off it.

Being competitive in PvP is not a "reward" that you grind for, it only truly comes from practicing PvP. We are not playing the same game as casual MMO grinders, PvP has nothing to do with doing chores for npcs and should not. There is no reason to "force" PvPers into questing just like there is no reason to "force" questers into PvP zones for event tickets.

If every updated PvP build is going to take 12 hours of boring chores I hate, then I'm simply not going to play. The well of fomo and compulsion is running dry, this game is a decade old and it's not so important it can get away with that. Every day another player decides that it's not worth working a job to pay money for a game that makes you work another job before you're allowed to play it. I'll pay $40 to PvP, not paying $40 do to npc chores, no thanks.

XSTRONG

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

Sidenote--do we know how common the Ink drops are? It's been so fun to play with Scribing on the PTS, but it would be totally unfun if it was a rare resource like Transmute stones that you had to grind out. I'd hope it would be not quite as easy as respeccing skills, but more in that line.

As it looks right now Ink will be tradeable, so traders would probably get filled with it in a couple of days, the rareity will set the price.

I know nothing but it would be strange if it was super rare lol

BlueRaven

XSTRONG wrote: »

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

Sidenote--do we know how common the Ink drops are? It's been so fun to play with Scribing on the PTS, but it would be totally unfun if it was a rare resource like Transmute stones that you had to grind out. I'd hope it would be not quite as easy as respeccing skills, but more in that line.

As it looks right now Ink will be tradeable, so traders would probably get filled with it in a couple of days, the rareity will set the price.

I know nothing but it would be strange if it was super rare lol

I dunno. After IA, the Jubilee Event, and now these reports, I am beginning to sense a pattern. Grinds appear to be the new standard it seems.