Dungeon Speed-run etiquette

Dax_Draconis

El_Borracho wrote: »

I am constantly amazed at the hubris of some players who demand an entire game be changed so they can run a quest on a base dungeon on a Level 45 alt, but absolutely refuse to even attempt to gather 3 friends to accomplish that

I'm constantly amazed at the hubris of some players who demand the group speed along behind them through dungeons, like their goal is the only one that matters, but absolutely refuse to even attempt to gather 3 friends to accomplish that.

Neiska

Some people: "I am speed! Gogogogo! Tanks and healers don't matter! If they were dps we could finish even faster!"
Later: "Why are there so many fake tanks and fake healers?"
Bit later: "Man, why does it take so long to pug a tank for random veteran dungeon?"
Even later: "LF1M TANK FOR TRIAL! PLEASE! ITS BEEN 4 HOURS! I HAVE TO FEED MY KIDS SOON!:
Me, fishing in Craiglorn: "The irony here is palpable. Oh! I got a nibble!"

People are free to play how they like, but its a bit disingenuous to think that won't affect the community, and intellectually dishonest to pretend otherwise.

NoTimeToWait

Sarannah wrote: »

Lets put all this different player style/type run aside for a second.

The fact that every dungeon has monsters, and they are ALL skipped to run from boss to boss, is insane. Why even call it a dungeon anymore. The thought that trash mobs and bosses die in a dungeon is the whole basis of a dungeonrun in MMO's. Otherwise ZOS could just place three bosses in adjoining rooms and be done with it.

ZOS needs to fix dungeons so they are actually dungeons again, so they are actually dungeonruns again. As it is now, the MMO part of ESO is beyond broken, and it is incredibly harmful for the game. Especially to new players and players who have expectations/experiences with and from other MMO's.

It isn't even about the group itself, it is about one player being able to push their agenda without any way to stop them. Neither the game nor the players have effective safegaurds in place to prevent abuse of other players. And make no mistake, speedrunners and fake role players are abusing other players and wasting those players their time(in most cases).

As far as I can remember all the MMOs I have played (EverQuest, LOTRO, Ragnarok Online, The Secret World, Allods Online) had parties skipping trash mobs in dungeons as much as possible (because without it dungeons were a slog where you needed to spend multiple hours). There were always multiple techniques to do that (getting aggro and dropping it via skills or landscape, or running through, dying and ressurecting or simply stealth skipping etc). Damn, even EVE Online had ways to skip trash packs in their own version of "dungeons"

My experience tells me that skipping trash mobs and some dungeoon mechanics is actually something common to a bunch of MMOs I have played, so there are different experiences apparently and noone can tell with certainty how dungeons should be done and what is the best for playerbase.
Personally, I like the way dungeons in ESO are implemented

MikeSkyrim333

If I speedrun the dungeon, I kill all mobs and bosses as fast as I can. If a speedrunner skip a lot of enemies, its not a good dungeon etiquette

Hapexamendios

The only etiquette you need is to not be a jerk by running ahead unless the group is in favor of that play style.

thegreeneso

This is a big reason why I dislike doing dungeons in this game. Instead of a group working together to achieve a goal, the dungeon experience feels like 4 players trying to solo the dungeon on their own. There's no teamwork at all, you never have to rely on another team member. Dungeons are essentially big delves.

Grizzbeorn

thegreeneso wrote: »

This is a big reason why I dislike doing dungeons in this game. Instead of a group working together to achieve a goal, the dungeon experience feels like 4 players trying to solo the dungeon on their own. There's no teamwork at all, you never have to rely on another team member. Dungeons are essentially big delves.

PUGing is the root of the issue. (In any game.)

The "dungeon experience" here is fine if you go in with a non-random group, such as guild-mates or other such pre-made.

WuffyCerulei

It costs $0 for someone who wants to rush thru the dungeon to wait a dang moment for someone to do the dang quest. It doesn’t matter if it’s a random queue, group, etc., it’s just called being a decent human being. People’s attitudes about “yeah well it’s a random dungeon” tells me they’re the kind of people who’ll disregard a quest-doer and whinge about them taking forever when they’re only taking 30 extra seconds of their time. By the gods and all their iterations, just be a decent person and wait a moment. Your skooma bubbler isn’t going to explode if you do.

old_scopie1945

El_Borracho wrote: »

I am constantly amazed at the hubris of some players who demand an entire game be changed so they can run a quest on a base dungeon on a Level 45 alt, but absolutely refuse to even attempt to gather 3 friends to accomplish that

You are even assuming that people even have one friend in the gaming world. And Guilds, well are not everyone's cup of tea. Some folk even find it uncomfortable interacting with strangers, especially ones you can't see.

The_Boggart

Twice recently l PUGged my tank , entered the dungeon and was kicked from the group with no explanation before even moving from the entrance . It was my *** (tank in training) .

old_scopie1945

The_Boggart wrote: »

Twice recently l PUGged my tank , entered the dungeon and was kicked from the group with no explanation before even moving from the entrance . It was my *** (tank in training) .

Been there, as many of us have. It is sole destroying and off putting. Most of the time PUG dungeons have no fun value at all.

Amottica

Aurielle wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Lets put all this different player style/type run aside for a second.

The fact that every dungeon has monsters, and they are ALL skipped to run from boss to boss, is insane. Why even call it a dungeon anymore. The thought that trash mobs and bosses die in a dungeon is the whole basis of a dungeonrun in MMO's. Otherwise ZOS could just place three bosses in adjoining rooms and be done with it.

What does this tell you about how people feel about trash mobs? Dungeon trash is just an arbitrary barrier to what people really want — set drops from bosses. Trash mobs are just annoying. Few people want to waste time on them, especially when they provide so little in return for the time spent killing them.

If dungeon designers want players to actively engage with trash mobs, then said mobs either need to have a random chance to drop set gear, or there needs to be far fewer of them.

Forcing players to kill X number of trash mobs before they can access the boss, or making them tougher to bypass, or anything like that would simply increase general player dislike for this tired, dated MMO feature.

The groups goal, the main goal for all four players, was to complete the daily pledge. Gear drops were not mentioned in the OP.

Even then, gear drops from trash mobs is very low as others have pointed out. In any MMORPG trash mobs are not the focus and it would not make sense to try to make them the focus.

I was simply talking about common reasons why people skip trash mobs (whether they’re running pledges, doing dailies for transmute stones, or farming gear). Killing them is usually a waste of time. The amount of XP they provide is minuscule compared to the XP earned from completing multiple RND on multiple characters as quickly as possible.

Fair point. It is pretty much like that in most games though.

Amottica

Dax_Draconis wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

I am constantly amazed at the hubris of some players who demand an entire game be changed so they can run a quest on a base dungeon on a Level 45 alt, but absolutely refuse to even attempt to gather 3 friends to accomplish that

I'm constantly amazed at the hubris of some players who demand the group speed along behind them through dungeons, like their goal is the only one that matters, but absolutely refuse to even attempt to gather 3 friends to accomplish that.

The majority does rule the day in such matters. While I agree it would be nice if the group would slow down to help the one player do the quest. However, the majority of the group is not exhibiting hubris because they want to stick with their plan to quickly clear the pledge dungeon. There does not seem to be any hubris involved in the experience described.

LaintalAy

It is completely inconsiderate to speedrun in a beginner dungeon like Banished cells or Fungal Grotto and not expect that at least one player is there for the quest.

If you can type "just leave" then you can also type "anyone questing?" and maybe just leave yourself, if someone says 'yes'.

Dragonnord wrote: »

Neiska wrote: »

That goes both ways though. Just as players shouldn't be "forced to wait", others shouldn't be "forced to speedrun or skip quests."

Exactly, that's why I say that people should stop calling players this and that, as they are not forced to do anything.
 

IF I LEAVE VOLUNTARILY from a a dungeon where 3 other individuals choose NOT to act as a team (dungeons are a team event with prescribed roles) and I choose not to participate then:

I AM FORCED BY ZOS to wait 10 minutes before I can even queue again. Then I need to wait in the queue again.

Your argument that 'they are not forced to do anything' is just wrong.

The whole speed-running of dungeons, particularly base-level dungeons; and the subsequent, lame arguments put up here in the forums by people who feel that their own bad behaviour should be excused on 'technicalities' is the applied definition of bullying.

You all want other people to play YOUR WAY, instead of playing in a way that includes all four people who queued for whatever reason to play with other players in something that is different from other overland experiences. These dungeons are the precursor to other team events, Veteran Dungeons and Trials. All with varying levels of difficulty for skilled players to test themselves.

The simplest answer to this problem would be for ZOS to remove the Transmute Crystal reward from base-level dungeons.

Jierdanit

LaintalAy wrote: »

The simplest answer to this problem would be for ZOS to remove the Transmute Crystal reward from base-level dungeons.

Have fun waiting 2 hours for your random normal then.

NoTimeToWait

thegreeneso wrote: »

This is a big reason why I dislike doing dungeons in this game. Instead of a group working together to achieve a goal, the dungeon experience feels like 4 players trying to solo the dungeon on their own. There's no teamwork at all, you never have to rely on another team member. Dungeons are essentially big delves.

There are plenty of mechanics where you have to rely on other players. Don't forget that these dungeons were designed for parties whose total DPS would be around 120-150k (and I mean veteran versions).

These days a single top tier arcanist can pull that much DPS (or close), so you can basically skip most of the mechanics. So it's not a problem of dungeon design, it's a problem of an aging system
Ah yes, decades old rule that players need to feel growth and need to feel powerful. Better dislike this, than the dungeon experience, because the dungeon design is rather good tbh, if not without some problems.

MidniteOwl1913

Jierdanit wrote: »

LaintalAy wrote: »

The simplest answer to this problem would be for ZOS to remove the Transmute Crystal reward from base-level dungeons.

Have fun waiting 2 hours for your random normal then.

Ok, but at the end of that time, I would have a group that *wants* to do the content, not merely put up with the content race to the end just for the reward. My time wouldn't be wasted.

Soarora

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

LaintalAy wrote: »

The simplest answer to this problem would be for ZOS to remove the Transmute Crystal reward from base-level dungeons.

Have fun waiting 2 hours for your random normal then.

Ok, but at the end of that time, I would have a group that *wants* to do the content, not merely put up with the content race to the end just for the reward. My time wouldn't be wasted.

Just because the transmute crowd is gone doesn't mean you'll get people who want to do the content. They might do pledges for the transmute then, though vet would be better. People also usually farm sets on normal.

Ardriel

I think defending the behavior of the people described by the thread creator is not good. It will only lead to even more inconsiderate behavior.
It is by no means an imposition to wait a few seconds for a fellow player so that they can accept the quest. Consideration should be the norm when playing together. Not blindly running through and ignoring all requests. A random dungeon does not mean that all forms of politeness and consideration automatically cease to apply. On the contrary. People who don't care about such things should find a special group (with friends, if they have any, or the guild) not players who want to do random dungeons. We all want to be treated nicely and should treat our fellow players accordingly. Fortunately, the majority of players behave this way.

AvalonRanger

"Dungeon Speed-run etiquette" = No more "almost" fake DD.

AvalonRanger

MikeSkyrim333 wrote: »

If I speedrun the dungeon, I kill all mobs and bosses as fast as I can. If a speedrunner skip a lot of enemies, its not a good dungeon etiquette

100% Agree. I thought same thing.
Just please, only skillful DD player do speed running.

If you can't deal just 6 trash mob without real tank or real healer, just should obey the tank's
situation control.

Amottica

LaintalAy wrote: »

The simplest answer to this problem would be for ZOS to remove the Transmute Crystal reward from base-level dungeons.

and that is a big reason why many do the dungeons.

The end result would be fewer players queueing for a dungeon.

notyuu

If ya rush ahead in a dungeon ya gotta make sure you kill all the mobs along the way and wait at a minimum 30 seconds at the boss before deleting them

Failure to do the above Is signaling that you're an [CENSORED] who thinks soooo highly of themselves that they can't even be bothered to spend time making sure their allies are not getting screwed over, the same actually applies for people who queue fake roles

cyberjanet

SonOfSoma wrote: »

Today I was on a level 45 ult account, trying to do my pledges.
As it happens I have not completed the quest for Banished Cells 1. So upon starting the run I grouped messaged that I was doing the quest and expected the group to just wait so I could collect it...but oh no.... here we go the 1600+ cp run off..

There is an influential body of opinion that says because you are playing an MMO you have to play with real people. This same body has also nerfed the P in MMORPG to an N. So quests and enjoying a dungeon take very last place to getting the transmute crystals, and you are often at the mercy of the equivalent of playground and workplace bullies.

Personally I would like to see transmute crystals removed from Random Normal runs. Hand them out with visions in Archive or something. But I have the minority opinion. Just as I don't interact with everyone in real life, I don't want to interact with everyone in a game, especially those who have different agendas to me.

While the XP boost from a random normal run is nice, you may be able to achieve a nice XP boost from Dragonstar Arena in normal. If you have a companion, that is great, it's a good way to level them. The first three arenas are very doable though you may struggle a little with the bosses. (I asked a new player guildie to try it out for me and give me a report.) The XP comes from the non-boss parts mainly though. Arena one stay out of the traps. Arena two stay by the fire. Arena three, stay out of the poison.

I certainly couldn't solo a dungeon at level 45, especially without CP, but I have found that most dungeons can be done with two people, so if you can find a friend, you should be able to get the quests done at the very least. And enjoy the dungeon.

oddbasket

Speed running isn't new player friendly at all and unfortunately, that's the only mode you will most likely ever get while queuing for a dungeon solo. And this is a terrible experience for new players.

New players and even players doing for quest should have the option to queue for a normal progression mode where bosses aren't skippable, simply by placing an invisible wall after each boss, some games do this.

Players who speed run to farm gear can queue for the regular dungeons.

Random queues should satisfy both queues because you're trying your luck. As of now random queues just only go the way speed running whether you like it or not. Would be nice for players to have this choice.

Amottica

Would it have been nice if those three would have accommodated the OP. However, they did nothing wrong since a GF group is a democracy and the majority made their choice appropriately. When wanting to do the quest it is in one's best interest to pre-form the group with players who know the quest will be done. That method works very well.

And a note that when asking the game to find a random group of players with random interests one can and should expect something very random. It is what we ask for.

PapaTankers

oddbasket wrote: »

Speed running isn't new player friendly at all and unfortunately, that's the only mode you will most likely ever get while queuing for a dungeon solo. And this is a terrible experience for new players.

New players and even players doing for quest should have the option to queue for a normal progression mode where bosses aren't skippable, simply by placing an invisible wall after each boss, some games do this.

Players who speed run to farm gear can queue for the regular dungeons.

Random queues should satisfy both queues because you're trying your luck. As of now random queues just only go the way speed running whether you like it or not. Would be nice for players to have this choice.

This is a terrible idea. The ques are already taking ages.
You are suggesting to split up ques even more.

PapaTankers

LaintalAy wrote: »

It is completely inconsiderate to speedrun in a beginner dungeon like Banished cells or Fungal Grotto and not expect that at least one player is there for the quest.

If you can type "just leave" then you can also type "anyone questing?" and maybe just leave yourself, if someone says 'yes'.

Dragonnord wrote: »

Neiska wrote: »

That goes both ways though. Just as players shouldn't be "forced to wait", others shouldn't be "forced to speedrun or skip quests."

Exactly, that's why I say that people should stop calling players this and that, as they are not forced to do anything.
 

IF I LEAVE VOLUNTARILY from a a dungeon where 3 other individuals choose NOT to act as a team (dungeons are a team event with prescribed roles) and I choose not to participate then:

I AM FORCED BY ZOS to wait 10 minutes before I can even queue again. Then I need to wait in the queue again.

Your argument that 'they are not forced to do anything' is just wrong.

The whole speed-running of dungeons, particularly base-level dungeons; and the subsequent, lame arguments put up here in the forums by people who feel that their own bad behaviour should be excused on 'technicalities' is the applied definition of bullying.

You all want other people to play YOUR WAY, instead of playing in a way that includes all four people who queued for whatever reason to play with other players in something that is different from other overland experiences. These dungeons are the precursor to other team events, Veteran Dungeons and Trials. All with varying levels of difficulty for skilled players to test themselves.

The simplest answer to this problem would be for ZOS to remove the Transmute Crystal reward from base-level dungeons.

So acting as a team means following your agenda and your agenda alone?
How about if you see 3 other people starting to speed, then you catch up with them and act as a team yourself?

oddbasket

PapaTankers wrote: »

oddbasket wrote: »

Speed running isn't new player friendly at all and unfortunately, that's the only mode you will most likely ever get while queuing for a dungeon solo. And this is a terrible experience for new players.

New players and even players doing for quest should have the option to queue for a normal progression mode where bosses aren't skippable, simply by placing an invisible wall after each boss, some games do this.

Players who speed run to farm gear can queue for the regular dungeons.

Random queues should satisfy both queues because you're trying your luck. As of now random queues just only go the way speed running whether you like it or not. Would be nice for players to have this choice.

This is a terrible idea. The ques are already taking ages.
You are suggesting to split up ques even more.

The bulk majority are random queues for transmutes and xp bonus aka speedrunners, having both options will have minimal effect on queue times for this majority and those queueing for regular mode. Those queue for progression mode will likely have a longer wait but I reckon is worth the tradeoff to play at their pace and get to complete achievements or dungeon quests.

The main drawback I see is those who queue random for speedrunner, who may not want to get filled into a progression mode run, but random queue is a mechanic to fill groups while giving player a chance for a faster queue pop so serving both modes will still be it's intended purpose.

This speedrunning thing has always been a toxic positivity/virtue signaling thing, the right to speedrun supercedes any other player's right to anything else, since the other party has no choice but to run along or forfeit xp and loot from kills. With any such abuse of power from a player capable of solo speedrunning vs others low cp and new players at their mercy, there should be a governing body which needs ZOS to review and set some rules or alternative option.

PapaTankers

oddbasket wrote: »

PapaTankers wrote: »

oddbasket wrote: »

Speed running isn't new player friendly at all and unfortunately, that's the only mode you will most likely ever get while queuing for a dungeon solo. And this is a terrible experience for new players.

New players and even players doing for quest should have the option to queue for a normal progression mode where bosses aren't skippable, simply by placing an invisible wall after each boss, some games do this.

Players who speed run to farm gear can queue for the regular dungeons.

Random queues should satisfy both queues because you're trying your luck. As of now random queues just only go the way speed running whether you like it or not. Would be nice for players to have this choice.

This is a terrible idea. The ques are already taking ages.
You are suggesting to split up ques even more.

The bulk majority are random queues for transmutes and xp bonus aka speedrunners, having both options will have minimal effect on queue times for this majority and those queueing for regular mode. Those queue for progression mode will likely have a longer wait but I reckon is worth the tradeoff to play at their pace and get to complete achievements or dungeon quests.

The main drawback I see is those who queue random for speedrunner, who may not want to get filled into a progression mode run, but random queue is a mechanic to fill groups while giving player a chance for a faster queue pop so serving both modes will still be it's intended purpose.

This speedrunning thing has always been a toxic positivity/virtue signaling thing, the right to speedrun supercedes any other player's right to anything else, since the other party has no choice but to run along or forfeit xp and loot from kills. With any such abuse of power from a player capable of solo speedrunning vs others low cp and new players at their mercy, there should be a governing body which needs ZOS to review and set some rules or alternative option.

There already is a que for specific goals. Its called a group finder.

Can you elabroate on how speedrunners are virtue signaling? I only see threads about people complainining about speedrunners. No threads about questers slowing the runs down.

You are almost right about zos having to be a governing body, but deffiently not about setting rules.
What they need to do is make dungeon skillpoints act line public dungeons skillpoints. Granted on final boss kill.

Edit: Would also like to ask.
If doing the quest really is the standard way to do the dungeon as so many here claim.
Please explain to me why the quest can only be done once per toon?