Dungeon Speed-run etiquette

wolfie1.0.

Vulkunne wrote: »

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

I personally consider not waiting for a person who has a quest in a normal dungeon to be rude, inconsiderate, entitlement, and elitism.

That said, it doesn't violate any rules or terms of service for all three of them to proceed as they want.

Best thing to do if you need a quest for the non dlc dungeons is to group up with people that also need the quests or are willing to wait for you and queue manually in.

I also feel that people wanting to speed run the dungeons do the same.

I agree about the speed runners because they're not even gonna try to talk to anyone, they're just going to do whatever.

However, I would like to offer that I really wish people would not hold such a harsh attitude going in to these things towards those of us who might have our own reasons for not wanting to wait for someone.

Its like we'll say this guy's name was, "Sal". So several times we had to wait for Sal, they didn't communicate with us or nothing and every boss fight it's like ok, "where is Sal?" You know, I look at the map and he's doing 'something' on the other side of the dungeon. And the way the paths are setup on some of these maps, I can't tell where Sal is or what this guys intentions are because he's doing his thing.

So I'm not "rude, inconsiderate, entitlement, and elitism" because Sal for one didn't communicate his intentions to anyone and two even if he did what if we can't wait? Right? It works both ways and not myself, not one other person is one of those adjectives you described us as being because we either don't know your intentions or don't share them.

Its just something that can't always be helped and assuming a harrible opinion of others for not thinking the same is no way to run a group. That is against good morale and anyone who feels this way please avoid running with me and mine.

Apologies, I need to clarify. I said those things in the context that the person doing the quest already communicated that they were doing so.

As, in I say I need to do the quest and I ask if that's OK, and then the others leave me in the dust while I try to do the quest. That is something that I consider, inconsiderate and rude.

Edit: I have also been in the other scenario where someone doesn't communicate that something is happening and just asks through the dungeon. Which is also rude and inconsiderate.

I see both ways here and why people should communicate more.

Aurielle

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

I personally consider not waiting for a person who has a quest in a normal dungeon to be rude, inconsiderate, entitlement, and elitism.

That said, it doesn't violate any rules or terms of service for all three of them to proceed as they want.

Best thing to do if you need a quest for the non dlc dungeons is to group up with people that also need the quests or are willing to wait for you and queue manually in.

I also feel that people wanting to speed run the dungeons do the same.

I agree about the speed runners because they're not even gonna try to talk to anyone, they're just going to do whatever.

However, I would like to offer that I really wish people would not hold such a harsh attitude going in to these things towards those of us who might have our own reasons for not wanting to wait for someone.

Its like we'll say this guy's name was, "Sal". So several times we had to wait for Sal, they didn't communicate with us or nothing and every boss fight it's like ok, "where is Sal?" You know, I look at the map and he's doing 'something' on the other side of the dungeon. And the way the paths are setup on some of these maps, I can't tell where Sal is or what this guys intentions are because he's doing his thing.

So I'm not "rude, inconsiderate, entitlement, and elitism" because Sal for one didn't communicate his intentions to anyone and two even if he did what if we can't wait? Right? It works both ways and not myself, not one other person is one of those adjectives you described us as being because we either don't know your intentions or don't share them.

Its just something that can't always be helped and assuming a harrible opinion of others for not thinking the same is no way to run a group. That is against good morale and anyone who feels this way please avoid running with me and mine.

Apologies, I need to clarify. I said those things in the context that the person doing the quest already communicated that they were doing so.

As, in I say I need to do the quest and I ask if that's OK, and then the others leave me in the dust while I try to do the quest. That is something that I consider, inconsiderate, rude, elitist, and entitled.

Why is that rude, inconsiderate, elitist, and entitled? You’re expecting three other people who want to speed run to stop and do the quest just for you. Simply asking to do the quest doesn’t mean the other players in the group have to do it if they don’t want to. In a random dungeon with strangers, majority gets to decide how the dungeon proceeds.

wolfie1.0.

Dragonnord wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

I don't agree. Selfish is grouping expecting to use the time of others for your own needs.

And don't say "join an activity without 1 minute to spare for the group's needs" because I have waited 5 minutes for people reading a quest and you write to them in chat "Hey! (player name), you there?" No response and then they continues like if nothing happened, no response, just on their own pace, like if you are not there or worse, like if you are there as their following servant, hired guide or mercenary. And then again, same waiting on next NPC.
 

The entire point of the activity finder is for people to find a group to help them with a dungeon need. All members of the group will have their own needs and as a group, you're supposed to help each other within reason. That's the entire concept of teamwork. People having a purpose for being in the finder is not selfish. Deciding only your purpose matters in a group activity is before the activity even starts is. And if you have queued without time to help people, then their bad behavior cannot be the justification because that's a future crime they're being held accountable for.

Most people don't stand there and read the whole story. They just want 1 minute for the unskippable dialogue. Extreme examples are just being used to defend selfish behavior.

I'm sorry but I don't agree. Where (anywhere) does it say that the entire point of the activity finder is for people to find a group to help them with a dungeon need? That's in your book. In my book, the dungeon finder is to go to the specifically selected dungeon with other people, most of times for simple completion.

A simple completion is also a need. Everyone will need different things. It shouldn't need to be spelled out. Everyone who queues for the activity needs to run the dungeon for some reason. If you go into a group activity without any time or inclination to do what the group needs and only you need, that's selfish.

Dragonnord wrote: »

Also, I see you say most people skips dialogues and disregard my situations where I have to wait for several minutes. If you skip dialogues you can catch up almost instantly, so don't debate here like if they always skip the dialogue because it's not like that.

No one opens a thread to complain saying "Hey! I was skipping dialogue spamming Continuet and the other players kept running." No, if they complain is because they are questing and reading slowly, otherwise, with some exceptions of dialogues taking some more time, most dungeons you skip dialogue super fast.
 

Yes. They do skip the dialogue. Not all dialogue is skippable and the dungeon this person is complaining is literally such a dungeon. They were not reading. Most people aren't reading. There is dialogue on several dungeons that must be listened to before you can spam skip, and it is those dungeons that constitute the vast majority of the complaints.

I disregard extreme examples because they are not the norm. The vast majority of the time they are asking for 1 or 2 minutes max.

That's why I put other examples, not only completion.

I personally have had the need to get skill points for my alts and NEVER EVER couldn't catch a group that was not waiting for me, so questers need to stop using the random finder for their first time on a dungeon, for role play questing or to press Continue in slow motion.

I have been playing since Day 1, have been inside dungeons and have used the finder hundred and hundred and hundred and hundred times, and what you say it's extreme, I find it very often.
 

The undaunted change requires quest completion from dungeons to level efficiently now, especially on alts. It's also a more fun way to level up a character.

There are not only dungeon quest that require dialog to be cited before you can progress, there are quest objectives that can be skipped entirely in some of the older dungeons, others that if you do certian bosses out of order you can't progress, and others that if you don't kill often skipped bosses you can't either.

Really, zos should go back and fix some of these things. But it's been years and it's not likely.

Neiska

Aurielle wrote: »

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

I personally consider not waiting for a person who has a quest in a normal dungeon to be rude, inconsiderate, entitlement, and elitism.

That said, it doesn't violate any rules or terms of service for all three of them to proceed as they want.

Best thing to do if you need a quest for the non dlc dungeons is to group up with people that also need the quests or are willing to wait for you and queue manually in.

I also feel that people wanting to speed run the dungeons do the same.

I agree about the speed runners because they're not even gonna try to talk to anyone, they're just going to do whatever.

However, I would like to offer that I really wish people would not hold such a harsh attitude going in to these things towards those of us who might have our own reasons for not wanting to wait for someone.

Its like we'll say this guy's name was, "Sal". So several times we had to wait for Sal, they didn't communicate with us or nothing and every boss fight it's like ok, "where is Sal?" You know, I look at the map and he's doing 'something' on the other side of the dungeon. And the way the paths are setup on some of these maps, I can't tell where Sal is or what this guys intentions are because he's doing his thing.

So I'm not "rude, inconsiderate, entitlement, and elitism" because Sal for one didn't communicate his intentions to anyone and two even if he did what if we can't wait? Right? It works both ways and not myself, not one other person is one of those adjectives you described us as being because we either don't know your intentions or don't share them.

Its just something that can't always be helped and assuming a harrible opinion of others for not thinking the same is no way to run a group. That is against good morale and anyone who feels this way please avoid running with me and mine.

Apologies, I need to clarify. I said those things in the context that the person doing the quest already communicated that they were doing so.

As, in I say I need to do the quest and I ask if that's OK, and then the others leave me in the dust while I try to do the quest. That is something that I consider, inconsiderate, rude, elitist, and entitled.

Why is that rude, inconsiderate, elitist, and entitled? You’re expecting three other people who want to speed run to stop and do the quest just for you. Simply asking to do the quest doesn’t mean the other players in the group have to do it if they don’t want to. In a random dungeon with strangers, majority gets to decide how the dungeon proceeds.

You are presuming that three other people all want to speed run. Odds are, its just one who wants to speed, one who does not, and the last two could be any - for, against, or just go with the flow. Chances are if 1 person takes off, others will follow, for any number of reasons. They might want to speed as well, but its just as likely that they don't want to miss out on drops/exp/etc. But since so few actually communicate in random dungeons, it's impossible to be certain. But in your stipulation you are just presuming, you don't in fact know for certain its the case of 1 quester, 3 speedsters. And the point is moot anyway, since the speedster can "force" it to happen, regardless of what the other 3 in the group actually want. That's what is rude, inconsiderate, and entitled. Now if they asked "hey can we speed" and everyone is fine with it, then you have a leg to stand on. But one taking off and the rest following and presuming that they all want to, is conjecture.

spartaxoxo

Aurielle wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

It isn’t “total disregard” if the majority also wants to speed run and doesn’t have time to dawdle in the dungeon to complete the quest.

It is because the person without time made the decision without knowing that. That they lucked into a group of people who also queued without having the time to be a team player doesn't retroactively change that.

Any decision a solo players makes at queue selection is about themselves and only themselves. The team has not been formed so there is no team to have worked with to arrive at that decision.

Some of those decisions on queue selection can have a negative impact on others (already making up their mind they will not wait for a quest, queuing tank without a taunt, etc). And they decided they don't care at all if their team members agree, they're going to do it anyway.

Like I said, most people running dungeons these days only want to speed run them, so it’s a safe bet that most people using the dungeon finder don’t care if you don’t have the time to do a quest run. It’s a ten year old game, and most people have long since finished the quests on their main and alts.

Most =/= all. If someone makes a decision for the entire team unilaterally before the team has even formed, then they are disregarding the entire population of players for whom that decision is a problem.

And once again, it’s a random dungeon with random players who each may have different goals. To avoid the problem of grouping up with different players with different goals, use the group finder, guild chat, or zone chat to form a group. You can’t expect that everyone in a random dungeon will be willing to compromise and take a vote on how they’re going to proceed with the dungeon — that’s just the nature of grouping up with random people.

I don't have expectations of what I'll end up getting. I typically go with the flow. I don't even think being selfish in that one instances makes someone selfish overall. It's a video game, we're all allowed to be selfish sometimes while playing it. Like little in this game is that deep.

If I want something super particular, then I form a group ahead of time or solo it. If I just want a clear, I go into a random. But, I also understand my actions have impact on others. So I do try to pay attention to the group's needs.

The group members who didn’t have time to do a quest run were going with the flow. If they weren’t happy with doing a speed run, they would have hung back to do the quest. It was just OP who wanted to do the quest. So I really don’t see how, in this case, it was the speed runners who were at fault…

I see the source of misunderstanding now. I didn't say they were at fault. I said that the person who queued without time to be able to meet the group's needs was selfish, and that people should refrain from queueing when they can't go with the flow of the group. The person who said that lucked out to be in the majority, but if the majority had wanted to quest, that person's response would have been exactly the same. They would have rushed ahead. Because they queued for a group activity without the time available to be a team player.

Dragonnord

Why you keep using the phrase "players that queue without having the time...".

There are players that do have the time and still don't want or care to wait and they have all rights to do so.

And it's not being selfish or anything. They do with their time what they want and no one has the right to call them anything.

In any case, the players trying to force them to wait, or expecting them to wait, or calling them this or that, or coming here to complain that they don't wait have their expectations wrong.

MMO means a lot of players online, not a lot of players forced or expected to do this or that.
 

Neiska

Dragonnord wrote: »

Why you keep using the phrase "players that queue without having the time...".

There are players that do have the time and still don't want or care to wait and they have all rights to do so.

And it's not being selfish or anything. They do with their time what they want and no one has the right to call them anything.

In any case, the players trying to force them to wait, or expecting them to wait, or calling them this or that, or coming here to complain that they don't wait have their expectations wrong.

MMO means a lot of players online, not a lot of players forced or expected to do this or that.
 

That goes both ways though. Just as players shouldn't be "forced to wait", others shouldn't be "forced to speedrun or skip quests."

Sarannah

Lets put all this different player style/type run aside for a second.

The fact that every dungeon has monsters, and they are ALL skipped to run from boss to boss, is insane. Why even call it a dungeon anymore. The thought that trash mobs and bosses die in a dungeon is the whole basis of a dungeonrun in MMO's. Otherwise ZOS could just place three bosses in adjoining rooms and be done with it.

ZOS needs to fix dungeons so they are actually dungeons again, so they are actually dungeonruns again. As it is now, the MMO part of ESO is beyond broken, and it is incredibly harmful for the game. Especially to new players and players who have expectations/experiences with and from other MMO's.

It isn't even about the group itself, it is about one player being able to push their agenda without any way to stop them. Neither the game nor the players have effective safegaurds in place to prevent abuse of other players. And make no mistake, speedrunners and fake role players are abusing other players and wasting those players their time(in most cases).

Bithabus

In BC1 you can skip the side bosses if you don't need the quest. Maybe they were running scrolls and were in a hurry.

spartaxoxo

Dragonnord wrote: »

Why you keep using the phrase "players that queue without having the time...".

There are players that do have the time and still don't want or care to wait and they have all rights to do so.

And it's not being selfish or anything.
 

They do have a right. But their actions impact other people. If they are chiefly concerned about their own personal profit or happiness, without considering others, then that is selfish by definition. Selfish isn't automatically a bad thing. At the end of the day it's just a video game. Being a little selfish in a video game is not a big deal. I would definitely be opposed to this being reportable or anything like that.

Forcing the group to quest would be selfish too if it were possible. And forcing the group to speed run is also selfish. Some games get around such things by just going by what the majority want. Sometimes I wish this game had done things that way too. I see the value in the design.

spartaxoxo

Sarannah wrote: »

It isn't even about the group itself, it is about one player being able to push their agenda without any way to stop them. Neither the game nor the players have effective safegaurds in place to prevent abuse of other players. And make no mistake, speedrunners and fake role players are abusing other players and wasting those players their time(in most cases).

You can vote to kick a speed runner out. If the vote fails it's because the rest don't agree. I think they could change it to only requiring the majority to vote kick rather than needing unanimous yes votes.

Soarora

Bithabus wrote: »

In BC1 you can skip the side bosses if you don't need the quest. Maybe they were running scrolls and were in a hurry.

You can usually skip side quest bosses, the quest catches up. Getting the quest can be a struggle in some of the dungeons though. I don’t tell people I’m getting quest anymore unless it’ll actually matter (like vaults of madness or needing to stop for a second in elden hollow).

Dragonnord

Neiska wrote: »

That goes both ways though. Just as players shouldn't be "forced to wait", others shouldn't be "forced to speedrun or skip quests."

Exactly, that's why I say that people should stop calling players this and that, as they are not forced to do anything.
 

spartaxoxo

Dragonnord wrote: »

No one can force anyone to do anything, that's why I ask to stop calling players of this or that. 

Since you seem to not know, if you rush past the mobs in BC1 before the unskippable dialogue finishes, then nobody can do the quest. It forces them to skip it. That's what the OP described happening to them and why they complained.

There are a small amount of dungeons where other users can force you to skip the quest and BC is one of them.

SonOfSoma wrote: »

Can I just reiterate..

I asked the group to wait so I could pick up the quest at the beginning of nBC1, as if the group rushes off you lose the ability to gain the quest... as it happened this time.

It takes a matter of seconds to accept the quest at the beginning...
I was willing to rush on afterwards, as there is no real dialogue checks.

A few seconds!!! What is that to someone's day?

Braffin

SonOfSoma wrote: »

I'm so shocked sometimes by the entitled, self-indulgent members of this community.

So upon starting the run I grouped messaged that I was doing the quest and expected the group to just wait so I could collect it...but oh no.... here we go the 1600+ cp run off..

If some stranger is telling me what they expect me to do, I'll happily disappoint their "expectations" every single time.

In this case I'd surely go for a new speed record for BC1.

If the very same player would ask politely instead, it's no problem to spare a few minutes for helping out a fellow adventurer.

Kavreiss

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Maybe all 3 of them wanted to speedrun [snip].

If 3 wolves and one sheep vote on what to eat for lunch and all get an equal vote, what's the likely outcome except that next democratic vote has only 3 votes to cast....

Vulkunne

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

I personally consider not waiting for a person who has a quest in a normal dungeon to be rude, inconsiderate, entitlement, and elitism.

That said, it doesn't violate any rules or terms of service for all three of them to proceed as they want.

Best thing to do if you need a quest for the non dlc dungeons is to group up with people that also need the quests or are willing to wait for you and queue manually in.

I also feel that people wanting to speed run the dungeons do the same.

I agree about the speed runners because they're not even gonna try to talk to anyone, they're just going to do whatever.

However, I would like to offer that I really wish people would not hold such a harsh attitude going in to these things towards those of us who might have our own reasons for not wanting to wait for someone.

Its like we'll say this guy's name was, "Sal". So several times we had to wait for Sal, they didn't communicate with us or nothing and every boss fight it's like ok, "where is Sal?" You know, I look at the map and he's doing 'something' on the other side of the dungeon. And the way the paths are setup on some of these maps, I can't tell where Sal is or what this guys intentions are because he's doing his thing.

So I'm not "rude, inconsiderate, entitlement, and elitism" because Sal for one didn't communicate his intentions to anyone and two even if he did what if we can't wait? Right? It works both ways and not myself, not one other person is one of those adjectives you described us as being because we either don't know your intentions or don't share them.

Its just something that can't always be helped and assuming a harrible opinion of others for not thinking the same is no way to run a group. That is against good morale and anyone who feels this way please avoid running with me and mine.

Apologies, I need to clarify. I said those things in the context that the person doing the quest already communicated that they were doing so.

As, in I say I need to do the quest and I ask if that's OK, and then the others leave me in the dust while I try to do the quest. That is something that I consider, inconsiderate and rude.

Edit: I have also been in the other scenario where someone doesn't communicate that something is happening and just asks through the dungeon. Which is also rude and inconsiderate.

I see both ways here and why people should communicate more.

No problem

There is no reason whatsoever why questers, gear farmers, achievement hunters and filthy casuals like myself can't all get what we need. Pug or otherwise.

We just gotta walk thru that door together. It all comes back to the Team working together on a basic fundamental level that starts with collaboration. Not I want, I want, I want, not people being we'll say 'over-board' dishonest about their role and not preconceived judgments being thrown around like hand grenades. (You didn't really say that I just added that last part in there for fun.)

"Penciled in", as they say.

Amottica

Neiska wrote: »

Let's play hypothetical.

Let's say, for example, a friend and I joined a random dungeon group. And as soon as someone took off IAMSPEED, we toggled our walk/run, and just, leisurely strolled through the dungeon.

Let's take that further. Let's say said friend and I also stopped to search for every tomato. Every grain of rice. Every container in the dungeon. And then just to be sure we didn't miss a recipe; we did that twice.

Let's now take that even further. Let's say that my friend noticed during our leisurely stroll, that IAMSPEED missed all these side enemies and optional bosses. Why, we can't have that can we? They should be killed too! They might have valuable loot after all. I am missing that one recipe from this dungeon!

Now let's get CRAZY with it. Let's say we tested each and every seat or useable piece of furniture. We tested each fire to cook on. Then we would stop to roleplay in group chat, between each and every pull. Including both our two characters interactions, as well as our inner monologues.

None of these things are against the rules. We are, as you speed runners say, "just playing the game." There is no rule that dungeons MUST be completed in a time limit. There is no rule that says dungeons MUST be completed at all. If my friend and I wanted to, we could sit on our rumps at the entrance and talk about decor. Hey, we are just playing the game we like, right? It's all game related? We aren't exploiting. Cheating. Or doing anything against any specific rules. YOU are the ones in a hurry. It's not our fault you are in a rush. So, again, purely hypothetical here, what would your options be?

1. Finish the dungeon, possibly alone. This might take quite a bit of time, and certainly more hassle than if you waited for said questers.

2. Try to boot/kick. But, what's this? There's two of us. So, you kicking isn't an option.

3. Drop group and get that nice abandon debuff to keep you from cueing again. And, since I was the tank, you might have another 40 or so minute wait time on top of the debuff timer.

Now, I don't actually support doing any of these actions. Because its antagonistic, and only adds fuel to the fire. But if we want to split hairs here, all of these things would be allowed.

Speedrunning, is only such a big issue in ESO, simply because people "can." In other games, the Tank sets the pace. Tanks do not set the pace here, at all. Tanks only set the pace if people allow them to. If people tried to speed in other games, they would likely die, and likely kill their group in the process. Here? There is very little risk of that in the majority of the dungeons. Which is why its so prevalent. And also why I think its so bad here, is because players cant do it in most other MMOs similar to ESO.

Now, my entire point here, is that just because you "can" do something, doesn't mean you "should." When someone does that, it tells me they value their time more than everyone else's time, particularly if they didn't even ask first. Honestly? If someone wanted to speedrun, and just asked group "Hey, can we speedy this one?" I wouldn't mind it one bit. If everyone said "sure lets do it" then I actually would be fine with it. Its the 1 person "forcing" it on others is what bothers me so much.

Is it legit gameplay? Sure. But so is everything else I listed here too. It is after all, as so many people have said, a "group" dungeon. And if you want to control the group, then go make your own, and so on.

There is nothing keeping people going "nope" and just dropping either. A lot of people don't care about the wait time, and have plenty of other things to do. I suspect having to replace people would affect the speedrunner more than anyone else. They are the ones in such a hurry, after all.

The argument that Speedrunning is the "Default" group mode of play, is false. It isn't the default mode anymore than any other mode is. Speed runners can just "force" it to happen, and others can't "force" the speedrunner to wait for questers and the like.

And I wouldn't expect it to change anytime soon. Even if ESO did put in 2 different group finders - one for speed, one for story, I would still expect to get group with speedrunners, even in the "story" mode.

Just food for thought.

This is a great hypothetical to compare to the situation the OP experienced.

Heck, that group seemed to have three-speed runners and one that wanted to go at a slower pace to do the quest. The majority was nice enough to not kick the OP and let them stay to complete the pledge which was the main goal for all four players.

This reminds me of a time we were short a person so we queued for a random player to fill the healing role while we did all three pledges in vet HM. The healer had trouble staying alive but we were fine with that as we were capable of three manning. After the first dungeon, we invited them to join us for the other two. For the last one, the vet DLC we never rezed the healer during any of the fights as they would die quickly. They never complained and even thanked us for carrying them. That is how they worded it.

The gist of that story is that when queueing for a random group we might not get what we expect. When we are the minority in how the group wants to run the dungeon and our interest does not sway them we have a choice. That choice is to go with the flow or find a different group.

katanagirl1

When I queue for a pledge it takes anywhere from 10-20 minutes to get in as dps. I can’t imagine thinking it’s okay to make someone fail the quest on a run and have to queue again and rerun just to save a few minutes in the dungeon.

Aurielle

Sarannah wrote: »

Lets put all this different player style/type run aside for a second.

The fact that every dungeon has monsters, and they are ALL skipped to run from boss to boss, is insane. Why even call it a dungeon anymore. The thought that trash mobs and bosses die in a dungeon is the whole basis of a dungeonrun in MMO's. Otherwise ZOS could just place three bosses in adjoining rooms and be done with it.

What does this tell you about how people feel about trash mobs? Dungeon trash is just an arbitrary barrier to what people really want — set drops from bosses. Trash mobs are just annoying. Few people want to waste time on them, especially when they provide so little in return for the time spent killing them.

If dungeon designers want players to actively engage with trash mobs, then said mobs either need to have a random chance to drop set gear, or there needs to be far fewer of them.

Forcing players to kill X number of trash mobs before they can access the boss, or making them tougher to bypass, or anything like that would simply increase general player dislike for this tired, dated MMO feature.

Dark_Lord_Kuro

I mean if out of 4, 3 didnt want to wait, you where the one not wanting to be a group player

fizl101

Aurielle wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Lets put all this different player style/type run aside for a second.

The fact that every dungeon has monsters, and they are ALL skipped to run from boss to boss, is insane. Why even call it a dungeon anymore. The thought that trash mobs and bosses die in a dungeon is the whole basis of a dungeonrun in MMO's. Otherwise ZOS could just place three bosses in adjoining rooms and be done with it.

What does this tell you about how people feel about trash mobs? Dungeon trash is just an arbitrary barrier to what people really want — set drops from bosses. Trash mobs are just annoying. Few people want to waste time on them, especially when they provide so little in return for the time spent killing them.

If dungeon designers want players to actively engage with trash mobs, then said mobs either need to have a random chance to drop set gear, or there needs to be far fewer of them.

Forcing players to kill X number of trash mobs before they can access the boss, or making them tougher to bypass, or anything like that would simply increase general player dislike for this tired, dated MMO feature.

They do already have a chance to drop set gear

Jierdanit

fizl101 wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Lets put all this different player style/type run aside for a second.

The fact that every dungeon has monsters, and they are ALL skipped to run from boss to boss, is insane. Why even call it a dungeon anymore. The thought that trash mobs and bosses die in a dungeon is the whole basis of a dungeonrun in MMO's. Otherwise ZOS could just place three bosses in adjoining rooms and be done with it.

What does this tell you about how people feel about trash mobs? Dungeon trash is just an arbitrary barrier to what people really want — set drops from bosses. Trash mobs are just annoying. Few people want to waste time on them, especially when they provide so little in return for the time spent killing them.

If dungeon designers want players to actively engage with trash mobs, then said mobs either need to have a random chance to drop set gear, or there needs to be far fewer of them.

Forcing players to kill X number of trash mobs before they can access the boss, or making them tougher to bypass, or anything like that would simply increase general player dislike for this tired, dated MMO feature.

They do already have a chance to drop set gear

Yeah but the chance is so low that it's basically always more efficient to skip the trash so you can farm the bosses more quickly.

Aurielle

fizl101 wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Lets put all this different player style/type run aside for a second.

The fact that every dungeon has monsters, and they are ALL skipped to run from boss to boss, is insane. Why even call it a dungeon anymore. The thought that trash mobs and bosses die in a dungeon is the whole basis of a dungeonrun in MMO's. Otherwise ZOS could just place three bosses in adjoining rooms and be done with it.

What does this tell you about how people feel about trash mobs? Dungeon trash is just an arbitrary barrier to what people really want — set drops from bosses. Trash mobs are just annoying. Few people want to waste time on them, especially when they provide so little in return for the time spent killing them.

If dungeon designers want players to actively engage with trash mobs, then said mobs either need to have a random chance to drop set gear, or there needs to be far fewer of them.

Forcing players to kill X number of trash mobs before they can access the boss, or making them tougher to bypass, or anything like that would simply increase general player dislike for this tired, dated MMO feature.

They do already have a chance to drop set gear

I haven’t seen a single piece of set gear drop from a trash mob in all the years I’ve spent playing this game, and I have a beta monkey, so… they obviously need to increase the drop rate.

Kavreiss

I'm going to say this plainly yet again.

The more experienced players have the responsibility to accommodate the less experienced players, not the other way around.

spartaxoxo

Aurielle wrote: »

fizl101 wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Lets put all this different player style/type run aside for a second.

The fact that every dungeon has monsters, and they are ALL skipped to run from boss to boss, is insane. Why even call it a dungeon anymore. The thought that trash mobs and bosses die in a dungeon is the whole basis of a dungeonrun in MMO's. Otherwise ZOS could just place three bosses in adjoining rooms and be done with it.

What does this tell you about how people feel about trash mobs? Dungeon trash is just an arbitrary barrier to what people really want — set drops from bosses. Trash mobs are just annoying. Few people want to waste time on them, especially when they provide so little in return for the time spent killing them.

If dungeon designers want players to actively engage with trash mobs, then said mobs either need to have a random chance to drop set gear, or there needs to be far fewer of them.

Forcing players to kill X number of trash mobs before they can access the boss, or making them tougher to bypass, or anything like that would simply increase general player dislike for this tired, dated MMO feature.

They do already have a chance to drop set gear

I haven’t seen a single piece of set gear drop from a trash mob in all the years I’ve spent playing this game, and I have a beta monkey, so… they obviously need to increase the drop rate.

They can drop any piece. I have gotten plenty. Personally, I think it's more efficient to kill them in big pulls because you might get a weapon, saving you an entire run. But I prefer not to go group by group as it is too slow.

Amottica

Aurielle wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Lets put all this different player style/type run aside for a second.

The fact that every dungeon has monsters, and they are ALL skipped to run from boss to boss, is insane. Why even call it a dungeon anymore. The thought that trash mobs and bosses die in a dungeon is the whole basis of a dungeonrun in MMO's. Otherwise ZOS could just place three bosses in adjoining rooms and be done with it.

What does this tell you about how people feel about trash mobs? Dungeon trash is just an arbitrary barrier to what people really want — set drops from bosses. Trash mobs are just annoying. Few people want to waste time on them, especially when they provide so little in return for the time spent killing them.

If dungeon designers want players to actively engage with trash mobs, then said mobs either need to have a random chance to drop set gear, or there needs to be far fewer of them.

Forcing players to kill X number of trash mobs before they can access the boss, or making them tougher to bypass, or anything like that would simply increase general player dislike for this tired, dated MMO feature.

The groups goal, the main goal for all four players, was to complete the daily pledge. Gear drops were not mentioned in the OP.

Even then, gear drops from trash mobs is very low as others have pointed out. In any MMORPG trash mobs are not the focus and it would not make sense to try to make them the focus.

Aurielle

Amottica wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Lets put all this different player style/type run aside for a second.

The fact that every dungeon has monsters, and they are ALL skipped to run from boss to boss, is insane. Why even call it a dungeon anymore. The thought that trash mobs and bosses die in a dungeon is the whole basis of a dungeonrun in MMO's. Otherwise ZOS could just place three bosses in adjoining rooms and be done with it.

What does this tell you about how people feel about trash mobs? Dungeon trash is just an arbitrary barrier to what people really want — set drops from bosses. Trash mobs are just annoying. Few people want to waste time on them, especially when they provide so little in return for the time spent killing them.

If dungeon designers want players to actively engage with trash mobs, then said mobs either need to have a random chance to drop set gear, or there needs to be far fewer of them.

Forcing players to kill X number of trash mobs before they can access the boss, or making them tougher to bypass, or anything like that would simply increase general player dislike for this tired, dated MMO feature.

The groups goal, the main goal for all four players, was to complete the daily pledge. Gear drops were not mentioned in the OP.

Even then, gear drops from trash mobs is very low as others have pointed out. In any MMORPG trash mobs are not the focus and it would not make sense to try to make them the focus.

I was simply talking about common reasons why people skip trash mobs (whether they’re running pledges, doing dailies for transmute stones, or farming gear). Killing them is usually a waste of time. The amount of XP they provide is minuscule compared to the XP earned from completing multiple RND on multiple characters as quickly as possible.

El_Borracho

I am constantly amazed at the hubris of some players who demand an entire game be changed so they can run a quest on a base dungeon on a Level 45 alt, but absolutely refuse to even attempt to gather 3 friends to accomplish that

valenwood_vegan

El_Borracho wrote: »

I am constantly amazed at the hubris of some players who demand an entire game be changed so they can run a quest on a base dungeon on a Level 45 alt, but absolutely refuse to even attempt to gather 3 friends to accomplish that

Yeah lol I always feel like if folks put half the effort they put into these constant "random strangers didn't do what I wanted them to do in a dungeon" posts into putting together a group, they might solve their own problem.