xylena_lazarow wrote: »Not a bad idea. Sorcs claim they deserve the same healing as DKs and Plars, so clearly those classes deserve to be able to shield up like a Sorc. DK and Plar should also get their own Streak clones and ranged nuke skills.ZOS can you please add a shield to coagulating blood or BoL? sorcs are not OP so why can't we all have the same kit
StaticWave wrote: »That said, Hardened Ward is on par with other classes heals now, no changes needed. It brought my sorc almost to the performance level of my NB. Ward + Contingent Heal is almost as good as Block Casting Healthy Offering or other classes' burst heals. There are a lot of S and A tier classes now, that is balance.
No, just no
xylena_lazarow wrote: »If so, then the same needs to be done for Annulment, Bone Wall, and the Scribing shields, that way everyone has fair access. Impervious Runeward should have a fully spammable heal, and not shrink after one gcd. Sun Shield and Igneous Shield need to be given healing components, as well as an aggressive magicka pool scaling option. This should fix the meta.But a 13k Ward with a 4k non crit heal is far from "Broken"
StaticWave wrote: »That said, Hardened Ward is on par with other classes heals now, no changes needed. It brought my sorc almost to the performance level of my NB. Ward + Contingent Heal is almost as good as Block Casting Healthy Offering or other classes' burst heals. There are a lot of S and A tier classes now, that is balance.
No, just no
StaticWave wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Ward in Cyrodiil at 46k max mag:
Healing Soul on back bar at 6k weapon damage and 30k stam:
Ward gives 12.2k shield + a 7.1k healing tooltip (which is about 3.5k non crit in PvP). Healing Soul gives a 12.6k healing tooltip, which is about 6.5k in PvP.
So a 12.2k shield + 3.5k non crit heal vs a 6.5k non crit heal that can potentially crit for 11k. Yea I think everyone here knows the answer for which is stronger lol.
As I've said before Ward needs attention at the higher end I'll agree but how are we comparing the healing strength of two skills directly when they have different function aspects?
A heal that can target other players, returns resources, and grants a further healing buff would have a lower tooltip than a heal/defensive skills that can only be applied to yourself.
Turn that around and say if ward had a total tooltip including the heal that matched in total healing soul but healing soul did the other t two things and could target a friendly would that make sense?
But isn’t that what ward defenders have been doing? They have been comparing Ward to other class burst heals and arguing that it’s fair to have a 15k Ward with a 5k crit heal because other classes can crit their burst heal for 17-18k, while completely ignoring the rng aspect of burst heals. I’m simply using their argument against them.
StaticWave wrote: »I’m at 46k HP with 30k resists and 4k crit resist. I also have Vigor, Surge, and Blood Craze
Yes, but I mean, it's not hard to build tanky.
You can take Warden and make the tankiest tank ever, that would also delete newbies.
But I can put 64 into max magica and I don't feel squishy at all.
Because 25k HP + 10k shield in no-CP at armor cap is not squishy.
I'm not even sure why this game even has classes, other than to give ESO a sense of artificial replayability.
In a proper class system, classes should have glaring strengths and weaknesses to exploit. But for some reason ESO devs think everything should be gridded to a spreadsheet and exactly the same.
Unpopular opinion, but in an ideal world Sorcs and NB's should not have burst heals at all. Both have strong damage avoidance mechanics and should heal situationally, such as weak HoTs and based on damage output.
But with scribing and skill styles it's clear they want everyone to just be the same except for animation color.
I'd argue for a Hardened Ward nerf but that would just mean all Sorcs slot Healing Ward and Contingency anyway which further homogenizes everything.
Bushido2513 wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Ward in Cyrodiil at 46k max mag:
Healing Soul on back bar at 6k weapon damage and 30k stam:
Ward gives 12.2k shield + a 7.1k healing tooltip (which is about 3.5k non crit in PvP). Healing Soul gives a 12.6k healing tooltip, which is about 6.5k in PvP.
So a 12.2k shield + 3.5k non crit heal vs a 6.5k non crit heal that can potentially crit for 11k. Yea I think everyone here knows the answer for which is stronger lol.
As I've said before Ward needs attention at the higher end I'll agree but how are we comparing the healing strength of two skills directly when they have different function aspects?
A heal that can target other players, returns resources, and grants a further healing buff would have a lower tooltip than a heal/defensive skills that can only be applied to yourself.
Turn that around and say if ward had a total tooltip including the heal that matched in total healing soul but healing soul did the other t two things and could target a friendly would that make sense?
But isn’t that what ward defenders have been doing? They have been comparing Ward to other class burst heals and arguing that it’s fair to have a 15k Ward with a 5k crit heal because other classes can crit their burst heal for 17-18k, while completely ignoring the rng aspect of burst heals. I’m simply using their argument against them.
Well a crit is a maybe so I can give you that argument. The differences in what two skills do different is just a known factor. It's like saying monster truck and sports car. They both get on the road, they both have wheels but the application can vary by a lot so if you compare them at all it has to be a specific comparison to be accurately looked at.
StaticWave wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Ward in Cyrodiil at 46k max mag:
Healing Soul on back bar at 6k weapon damage and 30k stam:
Ward gives 12.2k shield + a 7.1k healing tooltip (which is about 3.5k non crit in PvP). Healing Soul gives a 12.6k healing tooltip, which is about 6.5k in PvP.
So a 12.2k shield + 3.5k non crit heal vs a 6.5k non crit heal that can potentially crit for 11k. Yea I think everyone here knows the answer for which is stronger lol.
As I've said before Ward needs attention at the higher end I'll agree but how are we comparing the healing strength of two skills directly when they have different function aspects?
A heal that can target other players, returns resources, and grants a further healing buff would have a lower tooltip than a heal/defensive skills that can only be applied to yourself.
Turn that around and say if ward had a total tooltip including the heal that matched in total healing soul but healing soul did the other t two things and could target a friendly would that make sense?
But isn’t that what ward defenders have been doing? They have been comparing Ward to other class burst heals and arguing that it’s fair to have a 15k Ward with a 5k crit heal because other classes can crit their burst heal for 17-18k, while completely ignoring the rng aspect of burst heals. I’m simply using their argument against them.
Well a crit is a maybe so I can give you that argument. The differences in what two skills do different is just a known factor. It's like saying monster truck and sports car. They both get on the road, they both have wheels but the application can vary by a lot so if you compare them at all it has to be a specific comparison to be accurately looked at.
I understand your argument and I agree, both of them have different functions. I was just pointing out how Ward defenders were using heal values that are largely affected by RNG to claim Ward should be the same. Not many classes can reach 40-45% crit rate to reliably crit their burst heals. At that crit rate, you could get lucky and crit 3 burst heals in a row for 17k each, or not get lucky at all and only heal for 8k per cast. Compare that to a 15k Ward and a 3k non crit/5k crit heal, Ward looks more reliable and less RNG based.
Bushido2513 wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »I’m at 46k HP with 30k resists and 4k crit resist. I also have Vigor, Surge, and Blood Craze
Yes, but I mean, it's not hard to build tanky.
You can take Warden and make the tankiest tank ever, that would also delete newbies.
But I can put 64 into max magica and I don't feel squishy at all.
Because 25k HP + 10k shield in no-CP at armor cap is not squishy.
This just depends on who you're fighting though. I'm not squishy at all but I always take note of the players that have damage and or skill to put good pressure on and or kill me.i had to raise my health a while back because I discovered at that low threshold certain templars at the very least can put you down, sometimes even if you're trying to disengage.
Turtle_Bot wrote: »
I'm actually kinda curious now if that may be how ZOS reached their value for ward (which is roughly where non max-mag wards currently sit).
Wards cannot crit, so I'm curious if ZOS used calculated the median value of a burst heal when accounting for crit healing then upped wards shield value to match that value (with the upside of not needing to crit, but the downside of not having the peak that a crit heal can reach that exceeds that median), but they didn't factor in the max mag builds players were able to come up with that completely skews ward.
It was a former dev for another game that was on a podcast I was listening to recently, who said probably the most relevant thing regarding trying to balance a game:
"It doesn't matter how much in-house testing they do, the player-base will spend infinitely more time on just the first day alone upon release and will inevitably find things that there's just not enough time to find via in-house testing."
This isn't to excuse ZOS, (this is why listening to feedback, constantly communicating with the player base and acting on that feedback in a timely manner is very important), but it does help understand why so many things seem to "slip through".
Turtle_Bot wrote: »
It was a former dev for another game that was on a podcast I was listening to recently, who said probably the most relevant thing regarding trying to balance a game:
"It doesn't matter how much in-house testing they do, the player-base will spend infinitely more time on just the first day alone upon release and will inevitably find things that there's just not enough time to find via in-house testing."
This isn't to excuse ZOS, (this is why listening to feedback, constantly communicating with the player base and acting on that feedback in a timely manner is very important), but it does help understand why so many things seem to "slip through".
StaticWave wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Ward in Cyrodiil at 46k max mag:
Healing Soul on back bar at 6k weapon damage and 30k stam:
Ward gives 12.2k shield + a 7.1k healing tooltip (which is about 3.5k non crit in PvP). Healing Soul gives a 12.6k healing tooltip, which is about 6.5k in PvP.
So a 12.2k shield + 3.5k non crit heal vs a 6.5k non crit heal that can potentially crit for 11k. Yea I think everyone here knows the answer for which is stronger lol.
As I've said before Ward needs attention at the higher end I'll agree but how are we comparing the healing strength of two skills directly when they have different function aspects?
A heal that can target other players, returns resources, and grants a further healing buff would have a lower tooltip than a heal/defensive skills that can only be applied to yourself.
Turn that around and say if ward had a total tooltip including the heal that matched in total healing soul but healing soul did the other t two things and could target a friendly would that make sense?
But isn’t that what ward defenders have been doing? They have been comparing Ward to other class burst heals and arguing that it’s fair to have a 15k Ward with a 5k crit heal because other classes can crit their burst heal for 17-18k, while completely ignoring the rng aspect of burst heals. I’m simply using their argument against them.
Well a crit is a maybe so I can give you that argument. The differences in what two skills do different is just a known factor. It's like saying monster truck and sports car. They both get on the road, they both have wheels but the application can vary by a lot so if you compare them at all it has to be a specific comparison to be accurately looked at.
I understand your argument and I agree, both of them have different functions. I was just pointing out how Ward defenders were using heal values that are largely affected by RNG to claim Ward should be the same. Not many classes can reach 40-45% crit rate to reliably crit their burst heals. At that crit rate, you could get lucky and crit 3 burst heals in a row for 17k each, or not get lucky at all and only heal for 8k per cast. Compare that to a 15k Ward and a 3k non crit/5k crit heal, Ward looks more reliable and less RNG based.
Bushido2513 wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »I’m at 46k HP with 30k resists and 4k crit resist. I also have Vigor, Surge, and Blood Craze
Yes, but I mean, it's not hard to build tanky.
You can take Warden and make the tankiest tank ever, that would also delete newbies.
But I can put 64 into max magica and I don't feel squishy at all.
Because 25k HP + 10k shield in no-CP at armor cap is not squishy.
This just depends on who you're fighting though. I'm not squishy at all but I always take note of the players that have damage and or skill to put good pressure on and or kill me.i had to raise my health a while back because I discovered at that low threshold certain templars at the very least can put you down, sometimes even if you're trying to disengage.
But that's the thing, the higher mag you have, the more pressure you can sustain because your healing & ward button is gonna be bigger. It's also really hard to out-sustain sorc because you can start using energy overfrow.
xylena_lazarow wrote: »If so, then the same needs to be done for Annulment, Bone Wall, and the Scribing shields, that way everyone has fair access. Impervious Runeward should have a fully spammable heal, and not shrink after one gcd. Sun Shield and Igneous Shield need to be given healing components, as well as an aggressive magicka pool scaling option. This should fix the meta.But a 13k Ward with a 4k non crit heal is far from "Broken"
It was a satirical post. Sorc obviously should not be healing and face tanking like this. Sorc apologists keep claiming it's "fair" that they get the same face tank tools as DK, so I made a post applying that logic to every class (the result is silly).The problem with using 'fairness' in this sense is you're making everything the same when classes should be different with advantages and disadvantages.
StaticWave wrote: »Very exciting match LOL
Turtle_Bot wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Very exciting match LOL
still see a templar in there, must be completely balanced /s
LukosCreyden wrote: »I have been maining a no-pet magsorc recently. I think some mild adjustments to ward would be just fine. I just hope that the devs don't look at this thread and say "WELP! Time to nuke sorc back into the ground!"
I'm not even sure why this game even has classes, other than to give ESO a sense of artificial replayability.
In a proper class system, classes should have glaring strengths and weaknesses to exploit. But for some reason ESO devs think everything should be gridded to a spreadsheet and exactly the same.
Unpopular opinion, but in an ideal world Sorcs and NB's should not have burst heals at all. Both have strong damage avoidance mechanics and should heal situationally, such as weak HoTs and based on damage output.
But with scribing and skill styles it's clear they want everyone to just be the same except for animation color.
I'd argue for a Hardened Ward nerf but that would just mean all Sorcs slot Healing Ward and Contingency anyway which further homogenizes everything.
It's not, but many players expecting Skyrim like freedom ended up feeling restricted, while those expecting a more defined class experience like FF14 end up feeling a bit lost. The weird middle ground of ESO is part of what makes it unique and complex, but there have been too many design decisions that nerf class identity while buffing generics.Joy_Division wrote: »I don't think that is an unpopular opinion. It's a well established precedent for fantasy games and a typical expectation of players.
LukosCreyden wrote: »I have been maining a no-pet magsorc recently. I think some mild adjustments to ward would be just fine. I just hope that the devs don't look at this thread and say "WELP! Time to nuke sorc back into the ground!"
StaticWave wrote: »Very exciting match LOL
Joy_Division wrote: »I'm not even sure why this game even has classes, other than to give ESO a sense of artificial replayability.
In a proper class system, classes should have glaring strengths and weaknesses to exploit. But for some reason ESO devs think everything should be gridded to a spreadsheet and exactly the same.
Unpopular opinion, but in an ideal world Sorcs and NB's should not have burst heals at all. Both have strong damage avoidance mechanics and should heal situationally, such as weak HoTs and based on damage output.
But with scribing and skill styles it's clear they want everyone to just be the same except for animation color.
I'd argue for a Hardened Ward nerf but that would just mean all Sorcs slot Healing Ward and Contingency anyway which further homogenizes everything.
I don't think that is an unpopular opinion.
It's a well established precedent for fantasy games and a typical expectation of players.
I'm the living proof that Hardened ward is not balanced - I'm a mediocre PvPer at best and on a Magsorc with max mag I simply can't die. I may not kill millions but they can't kill me.
I'm in trouble?...ward up...still in trouble..streak away with Jo the plar and Jimbo the DK miles away behind me. Is this balance?
I'm the living proof that Hardened ward is not balanced - I'm a mediocre PvPer at best and on a Magsorc with max mag I simply can't die. I may not kill millions but they can't kill me.
I'm in trouble?...ward up...still in trouble..streak away with Jo the plar and Jimbo the DK miles away behind me. Is this balance?
There are a lot of builds for all the classes where you "may not kill millions, but they can't kill me". That is absolutely not limited to hardened ward sorcs.
Either way, Ward is good, but there are more effective options now, and they don't force you into a maxmag build to optimize ward. Where I find max mag build really, really good, nocp and BGs. There is only one CP star buffing max mag, so you lose very little compared to other builds in nocp play.