Hardened Ward heal making it to live is a mistake and needs to be changed

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Why are some ppl arguing that a combo that’s 100% blockable is somehow better than combo that’s only 50% blockable.

I have 60% block mitigation. Let’s say for argument’s sake, I limit Curse + cFrag combo to deal the same damage as Merc Resolve. I will then take these damage values:

1) A 13.3k Merc Resolve
2) A 7.7k cFrag and 5.6k Curse (scaled down proportionately from 9.6k cFrag and 7.7k Curse), totaling 13.3k

Apply the 60% block mitigation, I now take 5.3k Merc Resolve. In contrast, I will take 3k cFrag and 5.6k Curse since Curse is unblockable, totaling 8.6k.

8.6k > 5.3k

Even if Curse isn’t critting, it’s still going to do equal or more damage thru block than Merc Resolve, while having the potential to do even more damage when critting.

So you're looking at the damage but how long does each of those take to complete?

Also these days with the way the game is built are people better at healing through damage or timing out block. Personally I block some specific things but tend to mitigate others in other ways. I have a little time to mitigate a curse frag in a few ways where I tend to not think too much about blocking bows especially when a player is good at feints.

Just offering perspective but yes some players will mitigate curse with back to back frags and others will block your bow like they are reading your mind. It's just relative

It takes 5 seconds to get full Merciless Resolve stacks. It takes 3.5s to get a cFrag + Curse combo if lucky, or slightly more if not. Even if you don’t get cFrag within that window, there’s still the spammable + Curse combo.

When not blocked, 4k spammable + 5.6k Curse deal 9.6k total damage. When blocked with 60% block mitigation, 1.6k spammable + 5.6k Curse deal 7.2k total damage.

7.2k spammable + Curse > 5.3k Merciless Resolve.

As long as a large portion of Sorc’s damage is unblockable, it’s always going to outperform Merciless Resolve.

Yeah but what are we doing with the higher crit damage and chance multipliers that the NB will have? That math still has to be accounted for right?

It doesn’t matter. A crit Merciless Resolve before 140 Balorgh ult and Incap debuff was hitting me for 13.3k CRIT. With Balorfh and Incap debuff, it was hitting me for 17k. Curse + cFrag were hitting me for 7.7k and 9.6k CRIT, totaling 17.3k damage. Even higher than an amplified Merciless Resolve and can be consistently applied at anytime lol.

That magsorc had no Minor Brittle, and probably no Shadow either, so his crit damage was definitely 55-65%. Even if both Curse and cFrag didn’t crit, they would still do 15k+ total damage, almost 2k higher than a CRIT Merciless Resolve.

This is again, not going into the details of which combo is more avoidable, which I’ve already explained previously.

Also why are we comparing one skill to two skills as if a NB is just throwing Mr with nothing else?

Because you need 3 criteria to judge the strength of a burst combo:

- GCD cost
- Total damage value
- How much of that damage is going through

If we just look at damage value, then Merciless Resolve is always going to beat Curse or cFrag/spammable because individually it hits harder. When we include the remaining 2 criteria, then things change completely.

1) GCD cost

It takes 5 light attacks or 2 heavy attacks + 1 light attack to get a full stack Merciless Resolve. I'm going to exclude scenarios where you're just spamming light attacks to reach max stacks, because it's not practical and not realistic. People are going to light attack weave with every skill, which means a total of 5 GCDs spent before they can use Merciless Resolve. Even if they do a heavy attack, it will still cost the same amount of GCDs as heavy attack animations are slower.

Meanwhile, Curse has a 3.5s delay, and only deals damage after 3.5s, so individually it's going to cost 3.5 GCD before it does damage. Whether it does damage right at the moment you cast or after 3.5 is irrelevant. cFrag is a bit more random because you may or may not get the proc when Curse goes off. To make the comparison consistent, I'm going to use the worst case scenario, which is when cFrag DOESN'T proc when Curse goes off. Since Curse is a delayed burst and you can time a spammable together with it, the cost is still 3.5s.

You can see it easily when I lay out the combos below:

NB:

LA > Spammable (1 GCD) > LA > Spammable (2 GCD) > LA > Spammable (3 GCD) > LA > Spammable (4 GCD) > LA > Merciless Resolve (5 GCD)

Sorc:

LA > Curse > LA > Spammable (1 GCD) > LA > Spammable (2 GCD) > LA > Spammable (3 GCD) > LA > Spammable + Curse goes off 0.5s early (3.5 GCD)

So when we compare the GCD consumption criteria, you can already see that Curse + spammable beats Merciless Resolve. Curse goes off slightly earlier during the 4th GCD, so it counts as 3.5 GCD, but is still within the 4 GCD window. Meanwhile, Merciless Resolve needs 5 GCDs to deal damage.

2) Damage value

This criteria somewhat depends on your opponent's build, but let’s say both NB and Sorc opponents are competent and using min-maxed setups. I've fought many magsorcs and NB, and can get a general idea of how hard Curse and Merciless Resolve hit on average. I've also included a damage value test in my previous comments, so I'll add them here again:

Merciless Resolve before Balorgh and Incap:

Merciless Resolve after Balorgh and Incap:

Curse, cFrag, and Spammable:

The magsorc I tested with had 32k HP and 51k max mag. The NB had 26.5k HP and was in Balorgh. I did not know other sets they were using, but that's not really a concern. My resistances stayed unchanged for both tests at 28k spell resist and 56% crit damage mitigation, as seen below:

Merciless Resolve damage values on me before Balorgh + Incap was 13.3k crit. After using 140 ult Balorgh, his Merciless Resolve critted for 17k. At only 140 ult, this value is considered high damage if you consider my mitigation.

In contrast, Curse critted for 7.7k. Since we're not using cFrag damage values, I'll just use the NON CRIT value of Elemental Weapon, which is 4.4k. I have no idea how hard it will crit for, but I can make a guess using the average values for other skills. He used light attacks 3 times and it critted twice. Its average damage value is 1664 and its maximum value is 1822. My guess is his crit damage hovers at around 65% or so, which is inline with what a typical magsorc would sit at. Therefore, that 4.4k non crit Elemental Weapon will possibly crit for around 5k-5.5k damage, but let's just use 5k for argument's sake.

So 7.7k crit Curse + 5k crit Elemental Weapon = 12.7k total burst combo. Merciless Resolve beats Curse + Spammable combo this round. HOWEVER, things are different when you use cFrag, which has a 9.6k crit value. Now the tables turn because Curse + cFrag will hit for 17.3k total damage value, which is literally HIGHER than a crit Merciless Resolve that got amplified by 140 ult Balorgh + Incap lol.

Just from that sheer fact alone, Curse combo beats Merciless Resolve in this criteria as well

3) How much of that damage goes through

Merciless Resolve is 100% blockable and dodgable, meaning it will either be mitigated 100%, or on average 60% if an opponent is blocking on Ice Staff/SnB. That means a 13.3k Merciless Resolve will deal 0 damage if dodged or 5.3k damage to a blocking target. An amplified Merciless Resolve will deal 0 damage if dodged or 6.8k damage to a blocking target.

Elemental Weapon and cFrag are also 100% blockable and dodgable, meaning they will do 0 damage if dodged or 2k and 3.8k, respectively, to a blocking target. Curse is unblockable and undogable though, and can only be removed with cleanse (which not many classes have), so it will deal the full 7.7k damage through a dodging or blocking target.

That means the Elemental Weapon + Curse combo will deal 7.7k damage to a dodging target and 2k + 7.7k = 9.7k damage to a blocking target. cFrag + Curse combo will deal 7.7k damage to a dodging target and 11.5k damage to a blocking target.

9.7k > 5.3k
9.7k > 6.8k
11.5k > 5.3k
11.5k > 6.8k

There is no reality where Merciless Resolve is beating Curse + spammable or whatever damage skill you add to this equation simply because Curse is 100% undodgable/unblockable and has a fat tooltip, while Merciless Resolve, despite its fat tooltip, is 100% dodgable/blockable. Sorc takes this round too

When you consider all 3 criteria, Sorc beats NB in every single one of them. This is easily demonstrated at high level PvP where people block/dodge more often. Both classes have predictable burst, but Sorc's combo is guaranteed to have nearly half of its damage go through, whereas NB can either kill someone in 2 GCDs (Incap + Merciless Resolve), or get shut down completely if an opponent block cancels everything. The only real counter to Sorc's combo is a cleanse, which only Templar has reliable access to (Cleanse CP doesn't count because it's unreliable).

Ok first I appreciate you going to such depth on the testing and math. I'm not going to argue math that was observed in testing.

Unblockable is just that so there's really no arguing that either.

I will say though that this all is of course just a portion of the combat. Yes as a sorc you can throw curses and frags all day but a player of equal skill can usually work around it.

And of course we can say a NB works harder by going into stealth to force the crit on the next attack but the players also probably won't sit there and hold block all day waiting for an attack that may or may not come.

On paper this argument seems to check out. ESO combat in full would be more than this one aspect though.

No, it checks out in a real fight too.

Judging from past reactions in this thread, I can arguably say that I duel the most here. I can tell you every single NB fight looks like this:

The NB tries to hit me > I block cast everything > My HP barely dents > the NB HP keeps yo-yoing back and forth because Curse goes through block and drops his HP, forcing him to heal up > rinse repeat

The only chance he can get me is when I drop block, either due to latency or if I make a mistake in blocking. A good NB can force you to drop block earlier with LA + spammable + bash combo to drain your stam, but you can build to counter it as melee or simply kite as a ranged player.

Against a Sorc, my HP keeps yo-yoing back and forth even if I block lol. They can also force my block to drop with Streak, and force me to eat the cFrag afterwards because there’s a slight delay when breaking free from Streak. You’re almost guaranteed to land the cFrag or ult after Streaking thru someone.

It took me several months adjusting my playstyle block cast more, and NB has not been an issue for me. Sorc however, is annoying to deal with. Even though I can block cFrag or a spammable, I simply can’t block Curse. They can also force me to drop block with Streak too.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Why are some ppl arguing that a combo that’s 100% blockable is somehow better than combo that’s only 50% blockable.

I have 60% block mitigation. Let’s say for argument’s sake, I limit Curse + cFrag combo to deal the same damage as Merc Resolve. I will then take these damage values:

1) A 13.3k Merc Resolve
2) A 7.7k cFrag and 5.6k Curse (scaled down proportionately from 9.6k cFrag and 7.7k Curse), totaling 13.3k

Apply the 60% block mitigation, I now take 5.3k Merc Resolve. In contrast, I will take 3k cFrag and 5.6k Curse since Curse is unblockable, totaling 8.6k.

8.6k > 5.3k

Even if Curse isn’t critting, it’s still going to do equal or more damage thru block than Merc Resolve, while having the potential to do even more damage when critting.

So you're looking at the damage but how long does each of those take to complete?

Also these days with the way the game is built are people better at healing through damage or timing out block. Personally I block some specific things but tend to mitigate others in other ways. I have a little time to mitigate a curse frag in a few ways where I tend to not think too much about blocking bows especially when a player is good at feints.

Just offering perspective but yes some players will mitigate curse with back to back frags and others will block your bow like they are reading your mind. It's just relative

It takes 5 seconds to get full Merciless Resolve stacks. It takes 3.5s to get a cFrag + Curse combo if lucky, or slightly more if not. Even if you don’t get cFrag within that window, there’s still the spammable + Curse combo.

When not blocked, 4k spammable + 5.6k Curse deal 9.6k total damage. When blocked with 60% block mitigation, 1.6k spammable + 5.6k Curse deal 7.2k total damage.

7.2k spammable + Curse > 5.3k Merciless Resolve.

As long as a large portion of Sorc’s damage is unblockable, it’s always going to outperform Merciless Resolve.

Yeah but what are we doing with the higher crit damage and chance multipliers that the NB will have? That math still has to be accounted for right?

It doesn’t matter. A crit Merciless Resolve before 140 Balorgh ult and Incap debuff was hitting me for 13.3k CRIT. With Balorfh and Incap debuff, it was hitting me for 17k. Curse + cFrag were hitting me for 7.7k and 9.6k CRIT, totaling 17.3k damage. Even higher than an amplified Merciless Resolve and can be consistently applied at anytime lol.

That magsorc had no Minor Brittle, and probably no Shadow either, so his crit damage was definitely 55-65%. Even if both Curse and cFrag didn’t crit, they would still do 15k+ total damage, almost 2k higher than a CRIT Merciless Resolve.

This is again, not going into the details of which combo is more avoidable, which I’ve already explained previously.

Also why are we comparing one skill to two skills as if a NB is just throwing Mr with nothing else?

Because you need 3 criteria to judge the strength of a burst combo:

- GCD cost
- Total damage value
- How much of that damage is going through

If we just look at damage value, then Merciless Resolve is always going to beat Curse or cFrag/spammable because individually it hits harder. When we include the remaining 2 criteria, then things change completely.

1) GCD cost

It takes 5 light attacks or 2 heavy attacks + 1 light attack to get a full stack Merciless Resolve. I'm going to exclude scenarios where you're just spamming light attacks to reach max stacks, because it's not practical and not realistic. People are going to light attack weave with every skill, which means a total of 5 GCDs spent before they can use Merciless Resolve. Even if they do a heavy attack, it will still cost the same amount of GCDs as heavy attack animations are slower.

Meanwhile, Curse has a 3.5s delay, and only deals damage after 3.5s, so individually it's going to cost 3.5 GCD before it does damage. Whether it does damage right at the moment you cast or after 3.5 is irrelevant. cFrag is a bit more random because you may or may not get the proc when Curse goes off. To make the comparison consistent, I'm going to use the worst case scenario, which is when cFrag DOESN'T proc when Curse goes off. Since Curse is a delayed burst and you can time a spammable together with it, the cost is still 3.5s.

You can see it easily when I lay out the combos below:

NB:

LA > Spammable (1 GCD) > LA > Spammable (2 GCD) > LA > Spammable (3 GCD) > LA > Spammable (4 GCD) > LA > Merciless Resolve (5 GCD)

Sorc:

LA > Curse > LA > Spammable (1 GCD) > LA > Spammable (2 GCD) > LA > Spammable (3 GCD) > LA > Spammable + Curse goes off 0.5s early (3.5 GCD)

So when we compare the GCD consumption criteria, you can already see that Curse + spammable beats Merciless Resolve. Curse goes off slightly earlier during the 4th GCD, so it counts as 3.5 GCD, but is still within the 4 GCD window. Meanwhile, Merciless Resolve needs 5 GCDs to deal damage.

2) Damage value

This criteria somewhat depends on your opponent's build, but let’s say both NB and Sorc opponents are competent and using min-maxed setups. I've fought many magsorcs and NB, and can get a general idea of how hard Curse and Merciless Resolve hit on average. I've also included a damage value test in my previous comments, so I'll add them here again:

Merciless Resolve before Balorgh and Incap:

Merciless Resolve after Balorgh and Incap:

Curse, cFrag, and Spammable:

The magsorc I tested with had 32k HP and 51k max mag. The NB had 26.5k HP and was in Balorgh. I did not know other sets they were using, but that's not really a concern. My resistances stayed unchanged for both tests at 28k spell resist and 56% crit damage mitigation, as seen below:

Merciless Resolve damage values on me before Balorgh + Incap was 13.3k crit. After using 140 ult Balorgh, his Merciless Resolve critted for 17k. At only 140 ult, this value is considered high damage if you consider my mitigation.

In contrast, Curse critted for 7.7k. Since we're not using cFrag damage values, I'll just use the NON CRIT value of Elemental Weapon, which is 4.4k. I have no idea how hard it will crit for, but I can make a guess using the average values for other skills. He used light attacks 3 times and it critted twice. Its average damage value is 1664 and its maximum value is 1822. My guess is his crit damage hovers at around 65% or so, which is inline with what a typical magsorc would sit at. Therefore, that 4.4k non crit Elemental Weapon will possibly crit for around 5k-5.5k damage, but let's just use 5k for argument's sake.

So 7.7k crit Curse + 5k crit Elemental Weapon = 12.7k total burst combo. Merciless Resolve beats Curse + Spammable combo this round. HOWEVER, things are different when you use cFrag, which has a 9.6k crit value. Now the tables turn because Curse + cFrag will hit for 17.3k total damage value, which is literally HIGHER than a crit Merciless Resolve that got amplified by 140 ult Balorgh + Incap lol.

Just from that sheer fact alone, Curse combo beats Merciless Resolve in this criteria as well

3) How much of that damage goes through

Merciless Resolve is 100% blockable and dodgable, meaning it will either be mitigated 100%, or on average 60% if an opponent is blocking on Ice Staff/SnB. That means a 13.3k Merciless Resolve will deal 0 damage if dodged or 5.3k damage to a blocking target. An amplified Merciless Resolve will deal 0 damage if dodged or 6.8k damage to a blocking target.

Elemental Weapon and cFrag are also 100% blockable and dodgable, meaning they will do 0 damage if dodged or 2k and 3.8k, respectively, to a blocking target. Curse is unblockable and undogable though, and can only be removed with cleanse (which not many classes have), so it will deal the full 7.7k damage through a dodging or blocking target.

That means the Elemental Weapon + Curse combo will deal 7.7k damage to a dodging target and 2k + 7.7k = 9.7k damage to a blocking target. cFrag + Curse combo will deal 7.7k damage to a dodging target and 11.5k damage to a blocking target.

9.7k > 5.3k
9.7k > 6.8k
11.5k > 5.3k
11.5k > 6.8k

There is no reality where Merciless Resolve is beating Curse + spammable or whatever damage skill you add to this equation simply because Curse is 100% undodgable/unblockable and has a fat tooltip, while Merciless Resolve, despite its fat tooltip, is 100% dodgable/blockable. Sorc takes this round too

When you consider all 3 criteria, Sorc beats NB in every single one of them. This is easily demonstrated at high level PvP where people block/dodge more often. Both classes have predictable burst, but Sorc's combo is guaranteed to have nearly half of its damage go through, whereas NB can either kill someone in 2 GCDs (Incap + Merciless Resolve), or get shut down completely if an opponent block cancels everything. The only real counter to Sorc's combo is a cleanse, which only Templar has reliable access to (Cleanse CP doesn't count because it's unreliable).

Ok first I appreciate you going to such depth on the testing and math. I'm not going to argue math that was observed in testing.

Unblockable is just that so there's really no arguing that either.

I will say though that this all is of course just a portion of the combat. Yes as a sorc you can throw curses and frags all day but a player of equal skill can usually work around it.

And of course we can say a NB works harder by going into stealth to force the crit on the next attack but the players also probably won't sit there and hold block all day waiting for an attack that may or may not come.

On paper this argument seems to check out. ESO combat in full would be more than this one aspect though.

No, it checks out in a real fight too.

Judging from past reactions in this thread, I can arguably say that I duel the most here. I can tell you every single NB fight looks like this:

The NB tries to hit me > I block cast everything > My HP barely dents > the NB HP keeps yo-yoing back and forth because Curse goes through block and drops his HP, forcing him to heal up > rinse repeat

The only chance he can get me is when I drop block, either due to latency or if I make a mistake in blocking. A good NB can force you to drop block earlier with LA + spammable + bash combo to drain your stam, but you can build to counter it as melee or simply kite as a ranged player.

Against a Sorc, my HP keeps yo-yoing back and forth even if I block lol. They can also force my block to drop with Streak, and force me to eat the cFrag afterwards because there’s a slight delay when breaking free from Streak. You’re almost guaranteed to land the cFrag or ult after Streaking thru someone.

It took me several months adjusting my playstyle block cast more, and NB has not been an issue for me. Sorc however, is annoying to deal with. Even though I can block cFrag or a spammable, I simply can’t block Curse. They can also force me to drop block with Streak too.

This has been somewhat my experience too and I should clarify that when I said it wasn't the whole story I was thinking of situations where you face an opponent better than yourself.

If you're equally matched then yes curse is just unblockable damage but not something that can't be healed through and it's likely going to come down to the first player to make a mistake.

If we talk about just these three skills and gcd value, etc then as I said the math checks out. But we don't always face players of the same skill level and not every player uses or tries to get better at block.

So for instance the math checks out but I don't block that much on my build and mitigate curses, frags, and bows just fine in other ways. Obviously there's sacrifice I make to do this but the point is that I likely won't have much trouble defending myself against either class in an evenly matched fight.

Galeriano2

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Please show me excatly where I said that.

I'd do it if your posts were readable. They are not. Please use paragraphs.

Seems like a You issue especially that You werent the one asked to do it. If You can't read them don't answer them.

DrNukenstein

Galeriano2 wrote: »

3. Sorc burst combo is more predictable and harder to land since it's a 2 parter where 1 part is literally saying to the enemy "get ready I will attempt to burst You in 3,2,1". Fact that nb can burst people without creating a combo with an element of suprise is a massive adventage in general PvP.

4. You really did not understand what I wrote. Please read it few more times. if You will still not understand just skip it.It's getting tiresome to guide You through series of comments and explaining them one after another just so You can understand what was being said with a big chance You will still not understand it at the end.

Found it and your hubris.

It's okay for sorcism to be as underhanded and obnoxious as (melee) nightbladery. Just don't front that it isn't

Galeriano2

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

3. Sorc burst combo is more predictable and harder to land since it's a 2 parter where 1 part is literally saying to the enemy "get ready I will attempt to burst You in 3,2,1". Fact that nb can burst people without creating a combo with an element of suprise is a massive adventage in general PvP.

4. You really did not understand what I wrote. Please read it few more times. if You will still not understand just skip it.It's getting tiresome to guide You through series of comments and explaining them one after another just so You can understand what was being said with a big chance You will still not understand it at the end.

Found it and your hubris.

It's okay for sorcism to be as underhanded and obnoxious as (melee) nightbladery. Just don't front that it isn't

No You didn't.

Your comment was quote "If you're getting surprised by the DW blade that telegraphed their combo by cloaking right in front of you two seconds ago then fired two deathmetal-loud audio queues with cast and travel times you're totally not doing something as well as you could either"

In the pieces of my comment that You've quoted there is nothing saying that I am getting suprised by nb who entered cloak in front of me 2 seconds earlier. Claiming that nb can create burst easier in general PvP due to more front loaded dmg and element of suprise is nowhere near to what You're trying to imply that I've said. Talking about hubris and then trying to put words into someone's mouth that was never said by that person just to support Your own agenda is a bit ironical.

DrNukenstein

I'm sorry I only went back 3 pages on this bible long thread. You clearly seem to believe that the loud and gated melee NB combo which is often telegraphed by cloak in a small scale situation has an "element of surprise" that the endlessly spammable ranged sorc combo often telegraphed by curse does not have.

I'll give you that if it's a straight up gank, it's more surprising. If it's in the middle of the fight when you're already tracking the blade, cloak is every bit as much of a tell as curse. If cloak isn't the tell, then it's the cast/travel times, movement into position, and sound effects.

Galeriano2

DrNukenstein wrote: »

I'm sorry I only went back 3 pages on this bible long thread. You clearly seem to believe that the loud and gated melee NB combo which is often telegraphed by cloak in a small scale situation has an "element of surprise" that the endlessly spammable ranged sorc combo often telegraphed by curse does not have.

I'll give you that if it's a straight up gank, it's more surprising. If it's in the middle of the fight when you're already tracking the blade, cloak is every bit as much of a tell as curse. If cloak isn't the tell, then it's the cast/travel times, movement into position, and sound effects.

Going back only 3 pages gives Yoiu full insight into everything what I said about nb in this thread because nb topic started around that point. So You can't find any fragments where I said anything that You claim I did but You know what I am clearly seem to belive? Riiight...

DrNukenstein

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Going back only 3 pages gives Yoiu full insight into everything what I said about nb in this thread because nb topic started around that point. So You can't find any fragments where I said anything that You claim I did but You know what I am clearly seem to belive? Riiight...

yes

xylena_lazarow

Galeriano2 wrote: »

You know what I am clearly seem to belive?

???