Hardened Ward heal making it to live is a mistake and needs to be changed

StaticWave · June 2

Zabagad wrote: »

DaisyRay wrote: »

I feel bad for whatever zos people has to go through and read it all.

We could make it easier for them if we (all) end any comment (and edit first post) with an:
@ZOS - Make the heal on "Hardened Ward" as a HoT pls.

I'm pretty sure I said the heal needs to be converted into a HoT in my original post lol.

Zabagad · June 2

StaticWave wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

DaisyRay wrote: »

I feel bad for whatever zos people has to go through and read it all.

We could make it easier for them if we (all) end any comment (and edit first post) with an:
@ZOS - Make the heal on "Hardened Ward" as a HoT pls.

I'm pretty sure I said the heal needs to be converted into a HoT in my original post lol.

Nice, that was to long ago for me to remember.

But you didn't end your comment with it:
@ZOS - Convert the heal on "Hardened Ward" into a HoT pls.

Zabagad · June 2

And btw: here are my final stats for U41.
So in the second month there was a small decrease of Sorc - but not enough to say anything about a trend, or it was just a "nomal" swing. I can maybe say more after first U42 month...

@ZOS - Convert the heal on "Hardened Ward" into a HoT pls.

StaticWave · June 2

lol @Zabagad , that's actually pretty hilarious.

@ZOS - Convert the heal on "Hardened Ward" into a HoT pls.

Turtle_Bot · June 2

Zabagad wrote: »

And btw: here are my final stats for U41.
So in the second month there was a small decrease of Sorc - but not enough to say anything about a trend, or it was just a "nomal" swing. I can maybe say more after first U42 month...

@ZOS - Convert the heal on "Hardened Ward" into a HoT pls.

Interesting that NB remained over 28% throughout all of your U41 data samples. Curious to see the next round of data from the first month of U42 (especially with the massive impact that scribing will have on builds and ability/effect/buff accessibility).
I'm pretty sure of one thing though, we can finally kill of that stupid myth about all the NB vanishing this patch due to them all switching to sorc.

@ZOS - Convert the burst heal on "Hardened Ward" into a Heal over Time (HoT) and revert the tick rate/radius nerfs to lightning form pls.

StaticWave · June 2

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

And btw: here are my final stats for U41.
So in the second month there was a small decrease of Sorc - but not enough to say anything about a trend, or it was just a "nomal" swing. I can maybe say more after first U42 month...

@ZOS - Convert the heal on "Hardened Ward" into a HoT pls.

Interesting that NB remained over 28% throughout all of your U41 data samples. Curious to see the next round of data from the first month of U42 (especially with the massive impact that scribing will have on builds and ability/effect/buff accessibility).
I'm pretty sure of one thing though, we can finally kill of that stupid myth about all the NB vanishing this patch due to them all switching to sorc.

@ZOS - Convert the burst heal on "Hardened Ward" into a Heal over Time (HoT) and revert the tick rate/radius nerfs to lightning form pls.

I don't think ppl will hop off NB. Cloak by itself is too strong for casual players to give up.

@ZOS_Kevin - Convert the burst heal on "Hardened Ward" into a Heal over Time (HoT) and revert the tick rate/radius nerfs to lightning form pls.

DaisyRay · June 2

I think they should just remove the healing all together and fix our normal heal. Dark Conversion should be buffed and instant, I don't think there is any other class where you can block their healing. I use a mix of shield, dark conversion, and streak for my defenses. Maybe even instead of the heal on the shield, add the health line back. So while it's active, maybe you get a specific number of health. I don't know, I just want dark conversion to be better.

I also don't think lightning form needs to be nerfed?

Turtle_Bot · June 2

DaisyRay wrote: »

I also don't think lightning form needs to be nerfed?

We're asking for the nerfs to lightning form to be reverted (i.e. changed back to what it was before the nerfs).

There have been 2 changes that heavily nerfed lightning form to the point that it's mediocre at best (most magsorcs will opt for chudan instead unless they just like that ability):
1. Lightning form used to tick every 1 second, but with the game-wide changes in U35, lightning form got included in the AoE DoT category and was changed to only tick once every 2 seconds and that halved the healing over time that sorcs could get from crit surge procs from the ability.
2. The other nerf was the change to melee attack range last patch (U40), it went from 5m to 7m, but Lightning form never got its base radius increased to keep up with that change, so melee enemies could now hit you from outside of its radius on-top of it's already unreliable 2 second tick rate that most enemies could just walk through without taking 1 tick of damage from it.

xylena_lazarow · June 2

I'd caution against the direction of "ZOS here is the best solution" versus "ZOS this is a problem."

The HoT idea could work, but could also easily end up a compromise that pleases nobody. Without the initial burst, it could remain too punishing for casual Sorcs, while more HoT stacks on competitive Sorcs would be still be overbearing.

Turtle_Bot · June 3

As I stated before, the issue with simply stating "ZOS this is a problem" is that it doesn't tell ZOS how bad the problem is and what the solution needs to do to solve that issue without causing a drastic swing in the other direction that only creates other problems.

It's why both "this is a problem" and "here is a potential solution" needs to be put forward at the same time. It doesn't mean ZOS needs to implement the exact suggested solution, but what it does do, is give ZOS something to work from to find their own solution that is in (or close to) the correct spot.

Why do you think there have been soo many crazy and wild balance swings in the past, it was because because all people ever put forward was "this is a problem, fix it now" instead of putting forward, "this is a problem, here is an idea/potential solution that could solve the problem without making other problems in the process".

Of course ZOS isn't always going to get it 100% spot on every single time, but giving them that target to aim for or idea to test out helps them to find/design their own solution that will be much closer to something that would please most players (there will always be someone unhappy, no matter what ZOS tries).

Sure, the HoT idea might not work, but at least it tells ZOS that ward with a burst heal is too strong, but ward with no heal is not strong enough, so it helps them when they design a solution, since they know that it has to be in-between those 2 power levels.

Jsmalls · June 3

I think that population chart is pretty interesting. We always knew that Sorcs were a popular class, but even when it was at it's worst competitively it still had a solid 17%.

4% increase clearly shows a significant buff/overtune though that shift the meta class. But for what's it's worth... PvP is such a small portion of the population, so that increase is likely the Pros it is having in PvE as well...

Oh and I got to experience Hardened Ward as emperor yesterday with 95k magicka. Healy shield go hard is all I have to say.

@ZOS_Kevin - Convert the burst heal on "Hardened Ward" into a Heal over Time (HoT) and revert the tick rate/radius nerfs to lightning form pls.

Zabagad · June 3

Jsmalls wrote: »

I think that population chart is pretty interesting. We always knew that Sorcs were a popular class, but even when it was at it's worst competitively it still had a solid 17%.

4% increase clearly shows a significant buff/overtune though that shift the meta class. But for what's it's worth... PvP is such a small portion of the population, so that increase is likely the Pros it is having in PvE as well...

Oh and I got to experience Hardened Ward as emperor yesterday with 95k magicka. Healy shield go hard is all I have to say.

@ZOS_Kevin - Convert the burst heal on "Hardened Ward" into a Heal over Time (HoT) and revert the tick rate/radius nerfs to lightning form pls.

95K was not the max you could get - right? Because I had > 100K in my mind theory - but I wasn't sure on what base the +75% exactly would be applied?

Unfortunately I started this method with the U35 sorc desaster and I would really like to see what it was before.
(But till U34 I just looked on killcounter stats which are to bad for really good numbers...)
And I'm not sure what 4% you mean, but look at DKs drop or NBs rise during the same timespawn.

@ZOS_Kevin - Convert the burst heal on "Hardened Ward" into a Heal over Time (HoT) and revert the tick rate/radius nerfs to lightning form pls.

xylena_lazarow · June 3

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

It's why both "this is a problem" and "here is a potential solution" needs to be put forward at the same time.

I think it's fine to ask for the HoT effect as a preferred compromise, but people seem to be putting it forth as absolute truth. We've both seen players beg and beg for changes that turned out to be either ineffective, irrelevant, or even make things worse. Destructible bridges, faction locks, no proc server, adding a burst heal to NB and Sorc...

Jsmalls · June 3

@Zabagad

Yeah no that wasn't the highest achievable, that's Torc of Tonal instead of Death Dealer for Uber sustain in critical situations. And also with Tri stat food instead of bi-stat. 100k+ is achievable. Then if you add Vamp ult probably like 120k lmao.

Zabagad · June 3

Jsmalls wrote: »

@Zabagad

Yeah no that wasn't the highest achievable, that's Torc of Tonal instead of Death Dealer for Uber sustain in critical situations. And also with Tri stat food instead of bi-stat. 100k+ is achievable. Then if you add Vamp ult probably like 120k lmao.

Ok ty - that was the range (110K Vamp - 120K with "War Horn") I was expecting

DaisyRay · June 3

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

DaisyRay wrote: »

I also don't think lightning form needs to be nerfed?

We're asking for the nerfs to lightning form to be reverted (i.e. changed back to what it was before the nerfs).

There have been 2 changes that heavily nerfed lightning form to the point that it's mediocre at best (most magsorcs will opt for chudan instead unless they just like that ability):
1. Lightning form used to tick every 1 second, but with the game-wide changes in U35, lightning form got included in the AoE DoT category and was changed to only tick once every 2 seconds and that halved the healing over time that sorcs could get from crit surge procs from the ability.
2. The other nerf was the change to melee attack range last patch (U40), it went from 5m to 7m, but Lightning form never got its base radius increased to keep up with that change, so melee enemies could now hit you from outside of its radius on-top of it's already unreliable 2 second tick rate that most enemies could just walk through without taking 1 tick of damage from it.

Oooh okay, thank you. I realized I misread. That makes more sense.

DaisyRay · June 3

I'm sorry what? 95k Mag? Is that real? I could barely get mine to 52k mag, who is out here with 90-100k mag? o.o

TechMaybeHic · June 3

DaisyRay wrote: »

I'm sorry what? 95k Mag? Is that real? I could barely get mine to 52k mag, who is out here with 90-100k mag? o.o

Emporer

DaisyRay · June 3

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

DaisyRay wrote: »

I'm sorry what? 95k Mag? Is that real? I could barely get mine to 52k mag, who is out here with 90-100k mag? o.o

Emporer

How much does emp give you? I've never been emp, but that still seems unrealistic. I think 60ishk is what most pro players get to, so where is the rest coming from?

Jsmalls · June 3

@DaisyRay

Emperor gets 75% more stats if all 6 home keeps are owned.

The base of 60k magicka that is seen on magicka focused characters is about 47k before the multipliers.

106% (75% emperor, 31% other multipliers) of 47k is 50k. 50k+47k=97k

Hope this helps!

Turtle_Bot · June 3

Emperor gives you a huge percent boost to attributes and other stats, iirc it's +75% or +100% to attributes but I'm not sure the exact numbers, it's been a long time since I was last emp.

Zabagad · June 3

DaisyRay wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

DaisyRay wrote: »

I'm sorry what? 95k Mag? Is that real? I could barely get mine to 52k mag, who is out here with 90-100k mag? o.o

Emporer

How much does emp give you? I've never been emp, but that still seems unrealistic. I think 60ishk is what most pro players get to, so where is the rest coming from?

As I already said - you can (in theory - never tried it in practice) even reach ~120K maxMag for 20s if you use vamp-ult and somebody gives you "war horn". But this is emperor exclusive because of the 75% increase.

Some time ago I saw a Necro Emp (must be long time ago

) with 130-140K Health when he used his pummeling ulti (+30K) + maybe war horn + maybe ayleid buff .... and then he used "Thews of the Harbinger" (I guess it was a higher % at that time and was nerfed since).
Whenever he pressed block all players around him killed themself

DaisyRay · June 3

That's crazy, I honestly didn't know any of that. Thanks for explaining it! No wonder so many people go as far as cheating to get emp. (not that I approve, shame on the cheaters!)

TDVM · June 8

this skill should be nerfed by 50%. Then there will be more or less balance.

xylena_lazarow · June 8

In case anyone thought there wasn't a rise in complaints about Sorcs, behold: Exhibit A and Exhibit B! These two threads seem to be coming from pretty different playstyles and points of view. Also the above comment that resurrected this thread.

Joy_Division · June 9

Zabagad wrote: »

And btw: here are my final stats for U41.
So in the second month there was a small decrease of Sorc - but not enough to say anything about a trend, or it was just a "nomal" swing. I can maybe say more after first U42 month...

@ZOS - Convert the heal on "Hardened Ward" into a HoT pls.

RIP Necro.

xylena_lazarow · June 9

Joy_Division wrote: »

RIP Necro.

RIP Arcanist too. Outclassed as a pressure DD, outclassed as a bomber DD, relegated to ball group utility.

StaticWave · June 9

Well Scribbing just introduced a pretty good burst heal for Sorc. I think it’s time Ward gets nerfed lol

xylena_lazarow · June 9

StaticWave wrote: »

Well Scribbing just introduced a pretty good burst heal for Sorc. I think it’s time Ward gets nerfed lol

It also introduced several versions of a damage shield with a HoT attached, just like people here asked for!

Galeriano2 · June 10

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

RIP Necro.

RIP Arcanist too. Outclassed as a pressure DD, outclassed as a bomber DD, relegated to ball group utility.

You're not giving enough credit to arcanist. It still have plenty of potential in PvP including some niche areas that he is leading in like for example bash build which properly built especially in BGs can be abused to basically harass whoever You want, sorcs included.