Hardened Ward heal making it to live is a mistake and needs to be changed

DaisyRay

Bushido2513 wrote: »

DaisyRay wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

DaisyRay wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

DaisyRay wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

See this is exactly where a bit of my issue lies

Your issue is that Jsmalls isn't "casual" enough for you?

@DaisyRay posted her experience moving from a casual build to a max mag minmax build. Please read.

Honestly I don't know if jsmalls is a casual, complete noob, or 1vx specialist. What I believe is that the experiences of the smaller percentage of players shouldn't be used to set guidelines for the larger percentage of players.

DaisyRay sounds like the other part of the issue which I see on both sides where the description is a bit more exaggerated with less actual details. This isn't to say that I've changed my views on the value of player generated data accounts but just that exaggerated accounts aren't as helpful either.

I don't think I was exaggerating. I can make a video if you'd like. I've noticed a huge difference in the ward skill depending on how much mag I use, and I am not a pro pvper of any kind.

I wish it wasn't true because I don't really want things to change. I've never survived this well before. However, I can see how it's op in the wrong hands. I can see this being a problem for some groups, especially those who cheese their builds. At first, I was very much against the nerf because it didn't seem that bad. But when I tested it and changed my build to max mag, the difference was extremely noticeable.

I would honestly just invite everyone else to do that too and you'll see.

When I say exaggerating I'm just speaking of using terms like "crazy strong". Not to say don't say something in your own words but I'm just thinking that when I read that it doesn't exactly tell me much being that I don't know what crazy strong is to you vs what it is to me. It's kind of like when someone labels a build video unkillable. We all know all builds are killable and what you really mean is to some degree harder to kill but even that's a range depending on who you ask.

Honestly there's no good way to exactly put it since everything is objective. I'm just more so saying the stronger the language, the more polarizing the thoughts. I just don't think this change is in the range of polarizing but that's just me.

That's my fault then. When I say it's crazy strong, I mean it gives a bigger shield and heal for my sorc. Today, I tried something new by changing my tank from being health-heavy (45k health) to being mag-heavy (42k mag and 31k health).

This is my negate tank build, and with a few changes to give her more mag than health, she is even tankier because of the ward skill. I still die because I'm not as tanky as the EP tanks, but I've been running into full-on zergs and comps, and surviving much longer with more mag.

That's just with 42k mag, I can't imagine if I got my negate tank to 52k mag like my dps. I'd get more hate whispers than I do already. On my dps, it's even worse because not only am I tanky, but I'm also deadly. Lol some people are even shocked now, I've had a few people attack me, then see how hard I hit them and turn back around. It makes me giggle. ;p

@DaisyRay

Thanks for the clarification and feedback. I did have some questions.

Are you playing solo, small group, or larger group?

When you say you're deadly are you hitting back and getting many more kill then you normally would?

If grouped, are you moving away from your group and engaging others on your own or are you usually staying with your group?

When you die is it it more due to multiple attackers or single attackers? Big hits or a lot of damage just adding up?

Q: Are you playing solo, small group, or larger group?

A: Both. I mostly play solo until my raids start. I play with three different guilds, and their raid times vary. So, half the time I'm either solo or zerging. Sometimes, I go after keeps or resources on my own, and other times I zerg with AD. This applies to both my DPS and tank roles.

Q: When you say you're deadly, are you hitting back and getting more kills than you normally would?

A: For sure, lol. Usually, when I'm solo, I have a harder time with most players because I was so squishy. Now, I can defend myself. I'm not a super OP fighter, but I think I'm decent enough for an average pvper. Having this new defense has kept me alive long enough to actually deal damage. Before this, I was often forced to stay on defense. People hit so hard. This is noticeable to me because, as I mentioned, I'm mostly solo. I'm also stubborn, so I'm the person pushing out to fight groups or zergs that I have no chance against. I've noticed how my survivability has changed and allowed me to be more offensive.

Q: If grouped, are you moving away from your group and engaging others on your own, or are you usually staying with your group?

A: Both. I'm actually terrible at staying with my group and crown, it's a running joke. Which is even funnier since I'm the speeder for my newest raid group. I get distracted a lot and go off to take resources, chase people, or just get lost because I saw a flower I wanted.

Q: When you die, is it more due to multiple attackers or single attackers? Big hits or a lot of damage just adding up?

A: Again, it's both. Just because I have better defenses doesn't mean I don't die to 1v1 sometimes. However, this is usually because the other person was better than me, not because my shield wasn't enough. This is why I mentioned that skilled pvpers could really abuse this and become unkillable. Though I also do run headfirst into groups, so yeah, both.

Thanks for such detailed answers and I really appreciate your time.

See I feel like this gives a way better understanding than the other post. I feel like yes your defense was a lot stronger but that it also seemed to allow you to enjoy playing sorc a lot more. You were harder to kill as intended but not unkillable at all. Yes great players will take this a lot further but who's to say if that's too far in the game as it is right now.

Either way I appreciate you sharing and I'm glad to hear some of the positive experiences of the change though maybe it wasn't that way for those facing you lol.

You're welcome!

I've always enjoyed playing sorc, even when I was squishy because I feel like sorc has the best offensive skills. They just needed help with their defensive side. I honestly see both sides of the perspective here and I agree with both.

I would also argue that we are the ones to say what is too far and what isn't. We are the players and these forums are a place for us to lend our opinions on these type of things. We don't make the final decision, but I think it's good for the dev team to see what actual players think of their changes. Then they decide in the end what they want to do after reading all the opinions.

It's okay to not agree, but I see both sides. Which is why my suggestion for the nerf would be to take the healing off our shield and just improve our normal healing. One of my biggest annoyances about the sorc heals is that they can be blocked or if you're using the pet to heal, she dies a lot. So our current heals aren't always reliable. If the buff our dark conversion heal and make it instant, there is no need to have a heal on shield.

The shield itself may need some reworking too, but if we started messing with that then we would need to mess with the arcanist shield, the warden shield, and so on.

StaticWave

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Tell you what. I think it would get my point across better if the magsorc mains in this thread try fighting a magsorc as ANOTHER class. It would really make arguing with yall a lot easier when you can experience what it’s like to fight your own class lol.

This will really depend on your end goal for the fight or gameplay session and that's a point I think is being left out. Your build is going to depend on your playstyle or confidence on that class but that can vary wildly and so what does that really tell us about anything?

Most of my builds tend to be geared towards survival with an ability to take out some opponents and to gang up on others. I'm planning on a win, a stalemate, or a win using numbers. So for me fighting any class using any class goes about the same. Does that mean my view or way of fighting is better or worse, not really. Should we use my style as a benchmark for ward in any way shape or form, absolutely not because that wouldn't take into account others that don't play the way I do.


So when you present samples and say look at this. I can only say ok that applies to any player that plays the way you do, uses a build similar to yours, and is in fights like the one you're representing. What I don't know is how many players out of the player base that would amount to.

You’re dancing around the request Bushido. It’s a simple request

The end goal is to get kills. Every class will have a BiS build or a list of good builds to choose from.

So my request is any magsorc main here needs to hop on another class and use the respective BiS build for said class, then fight several magsorcs with BiS builds ranging from casual to top tier. Then come back here and tell everyone their experience so we can have a more accurate argument.

Ok so before I go and do this test I just want to know. Does ganking count and does zerging/using overwhelming numbers to kill them count?

Because if you just want me to fight them 1v1 I've already said I believe they have an advantage there but that the game isn't balanced behind this so it's relatively unimportant.

Yes, everything counts

Oh also how am I supposed to know their builds and if they are casual or top tier? I could zerg surf on a tanky plar with high regen and just spam beam and turtle up as needed but if I just wait till 3 other people get them low I'm not really going to know much about their build or skill level.

So maybe your test is already asking something that's not easily known or that's going to leave it to the judgement of the tester, which isn't exactly a reliable test no?

Just do whatever while keeping in mind how your sorc would do on the same situation. Does ot match the same survivability and killing and staying power? Just as easy or hard?

Feels like you're trying to over complicate this

This. Literally just hop on another class and fight as many magsorcs as you can find. No need to over-complicate things. There is a massive difference between casual and top tier magsorcs and it’s quite easy to tell.

I’ve been playing other classes against magsorcs and my experience is magsorc is super annoying to fight against.

The casual ones don’t really pressure me that much but they are super difficult to kill. I will eventually get them but the fight drags out more than it should, like how a bad NB spams Cloak and annoys you until you pop a detect pot and kill them.

The top tier magsorcs will 100-20% me very frequently and I actually have to sit up and focus if i want to win. They are borderline impossible to kill if they know how to Streak and kite while applying Ward preemptively and reactively.

Dracane

StaticWave wrote: »

2) Rework 1 morph of Dark Conversion.
- Having 1 morph be an instant cast burst heal with a fixed tooltip, somewhere between 10-12k, but stripped of the resource sustain, will provide the class the healing it needs without giving it a GCD advantage. You could add an extra effect on that too, like Minor Berserk and Minor Force or something.

Let's not beat around the bush. Dark Conversion in particular is the morph you wish this treatment upon. Let Magsorc suffer, so Stamsorc can be the sole king again. I doubt you would give your powerful Stamsorc variant of Dark Exchange away.

The visions you two have for Magsorc become more frightening by the day. At this point, I hope the devs will answer them with blatant disregard. You said yesterday that you want Magsorcs to fight their class on another class to see what it's like. I also would like you to fight Stamsorc on a differen class, because Stamsorc is just as crazy, and has been for much longer than this.

Your other 2 suggestions also heavily favor Stamsorc, and you know that.

StaticWave

Dracane wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

2) Rework 1 morph of Dark Conversion.
- Having 1 morph be an instant cast burst heal with a fixed tooltip, somewhere between 10-12k, but stripped of the resource sustain, will provide the class the healing it needs without giving it a GCD advantage. You could add an extra effect on that too, like Minor Berserk and Minor Force or something.

Let's not beat around the bush. Dark Conversion in particular is the morph you wish this treatment upon. Let Magsorc suffer, so Stamsorc can be the sole king again. I doubt you would give your powerful Stamsorc variant of Dark Exchange away.

The visions you two have for Magsorc become more frightening by the day. At this point, I hope the devs will answer them with blatant disregard. You said yesterday that you want Magsorcs to fight their class on another class to see what it's like. I also would like you to fight Stamsorc on a differen class, because Stamsorc is just as crazy, and has been for much longer than this.

Your other 2 suggestions also heavily favor Stamsorc, and you know that.

1) I have fought stamsorcs on other classes. I beat them majority of the time. I’ll log on tomorrow and get a couple duels and post it here.

2) It doesn’t matter what morph they change as long as 1 morph restores both resources and the other morph is a strict burst heal. It’s not a difficult solution. I don’t want stamsorc to be “king” not do I want to nerf magsorc. I want a balanced class.

3) The other 2 suggestions don’t favor heavily stamsorc lol. Please think carefully before making this statement.

4) You seem to have this notion that stamsorc was “better” than magsorc when fundamentally stamsorc was only good because of proc sets. Every stamsorc meta has been like that. Take the procs away, stamsorc was trash and ppl left the class.

If you don’t believe me, please play on a stamsorc without Pale Order, 3 procs, and no burst heal. Now hop on a magsorc and tell me what’s worse to play on, because as a stamsorc main who’s helped a lot of ppl when they wanted advice on stamsorc, I have received so many complaints about how stamsorc has no healing and how they can’t play the class. Please go on and play that spec for me and come back here.

Dracane

StaticWave wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

2) Rework 1 morph of Dark Conversion.
- Having 1 morph be an instant cast burst heal with a fixed tooltip, somewhere between 10-12k, but stripped of the resource sustain, will provide the class the healing it needs without giving it a GCD advantage. You could add an extra effect on that too, like Minor Berserk and Minor Force or something.

Let's not beat around the bush. Dark Conversion in particular is the morph you wish this treatment upon. Let Magsorc suffer, so Stamsorc can be the sole king again. I doubt you would give your powerful Stamsorc variant of Dark Exchange away.

The visions you two have for Magsorc become more frightening by the day. At this point, I hope the devs will answer them with blatant disregard. You said yesterday that you want Magsorcs to fight their class on another class to see what it's like. I also would like you to fight Stamsorc on a differen class, because Stamsorc is just as crazy, and has been for much longer than this.

Your other 2 suggestions also heavily favor Stamsorc, and you know that.

4) You seem to have this notion that stamsorc was “better” than magsorc when fundamentally stamsorc was only good because of proc sets. Every stamsorc meta has been like that. Take the procs away, stamsorc was trash and ppl left the class.

If you don’t believe me, please play on a stamsorc without Pale Order, 3 procs, and no burst heal. Now hop on a magsorc and tell me what’s worse to play on, because as a stamsorc main who’s helped a lot of ppl when they wanted advice on stamsorc, I have received so many complaints about how stamsorc has no healing and how they can’t play the class. Please go on and play that spec for me and come back here.

Is it of any consequence though? This is not the reality we live in, because that reality features proc sets; powerful ones. And I have no doubt the next toy is already in the making as we speak.

And asking me to test your hypothetical Stamsorc build is like DaisyRay admitting that low mag Magsorc wasn't as good as high mag Magsorc. This is a weak argument telling someone to run suboptimal setups, because people will run what's strongest, not intentionally gimp themselves beyond reason. Just like your concern is those good Magsorcs you can't steamroll in duels. So even the bad Magsorcs should suffer as a consequence.

Not saying that balancing around the top isn't a logical idea. It is, and has been done so in ESO and other MMOs always. Yet, it follows that something can easily become unviable for a majority of players; which is what Magsorc was not too long ago. Stamsorc however wasn't.

StaticWave

Dracane wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

2) Rework 1 morph of Dark Conversion.
- Having 1 morph be an instant cast burst heal with a fixed tooltip, somewhere between 10-12k, but stripped of the resource sustain, will provide the class the healing it needs without giving it a GCD advantage. You could add an extra effect on that too, like Minor Berserk and Minor Force or something.

Let's not beat around the bush. Dark Conversion in particular is the morph you wish this treatment upon. Let Magsorc suffer, so Stamsorc can be the sole king again. I doubt you would give your powerful Stamsorc variant of Dark Exchange away.

The visions you two have for Magsorc become more frightening by the day. At this point, I hope the devs will answer them with blatant disregard. You said yesterday that you want Magsorcs to fight their class on another class to see what it's like. I also would like you to fight Stamsorc on a differen class, because Stamsorc is just as crazy, and has been for much longer than this.

Your other 2 suggestions also heavily favor Stamsorc, and you know that.

4) You seem to have this notion that stamsorc was “better” than magsorc when fundamentally stamsorc was only good because of proc sets. Every stamsorc meta has been like that. Take the procs away, stamsorc was trash and ppl left the class.

If you don’t believe me, please play on a stamsorc without Pale Order, 3 procs, and no burst heal. Now hop on a magsorc and tell me what’s worse to play on, because as a stamsorc main who’s helped a lot of ppl when they wanted advice on stamsorc, I have received so many complaints about how stamsorc has no healing and how they can’t play the class. Please go on and play that spec for me and come back here.

Is it of any consequence though? This is not the reality we live in, because that reality features proc sets; powerful ones. And I have no doubt the next toy is already in the making as we speak.

And asking me to test your hypothetical Stamsorc build is like DaisyRay admitting that low mag Magsorc wasn't as good as high mag Magsorc. This is a weak argument telling someone to run suboptimal setups, because people will run what's strongest, not intentionally gimp themselves beyond reason. Just like your concern is those good Magsorcs you can't steamroll in duels. So even the bad Magsorcs should suffer as a consequence.

Not saying that balancing around the top isn't a logical idea. It is, and has been done so in ESO and other MMOs always. Yet, it follows that something can easily become unviable for a majority of players; which is what Magsorc was not too long ago. Stamsorc however wasn't.

Stamsorc is objectively worse than magsorc without procs. It’s not an opinion. It’s a fact.

You using the argument that BiS builds need to be taken into account is flawed. It’s the exact reason why stamsorc hasn’t gotten any buffs until recently.

If you take procs into consideration, you’re not addressing the actual class balance issue, but rather the consequences of slotting procs. Arcanist with procs is aids to deal with. Arcanist without procs does no damage. So is Arcanist overperforming or are procs overperforming? If you say Arcanist is overperforming, then congrats you don’t understand the problem with the class. If you say procs are overperforming then congrats, we can finally argue with common ground.

Dracane

StaticWave wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

2) Rework 1 morph of Dark Conversion.
- Having 1 morph be an instant cast burst heal with a fixed tooltip, somewhere between 10-12k, but stripped of the resource sustain, will provide the class the healing it needs without giving it a GCD advantage. You could add an extra effect on that too, like Minor Berserk and Minor Force or something.

Let's not beat around the bush. Dark Conversion in particular is the morph you wish this treatment upon. Let Magsorc suffer, so Stamsorc can be the sole king again. I doubt you would give your powerful Stamsorc variant of Dark Exchange away.

The visions you two have for Magsorc become more frightening by the day. At this point, I hope the devs will answer them with blatant disregard. You said yesterday that you want Magsorcs to fight their class on another class to see what it's like. I also would like you to fight Stamsorc on a differen class, because Stamsorc is just as crazy, and has been for much longer than this.

Your other 2 suggestions also heavily favor Stamsorc, and you know that.

4) You seem to have this notion that stamsorc was “better” than magsorc when fundamentally stamsorc was only good because of proc sets. Every stamsorc meta has been like that. Take the procs away, stamsorc was trash and ppl left the class.

If you don’t believe me, please play on a stamsorc without Pale Order, 3 procs, and no burst heal. Now hop on a magsorc and tell me what’s worse to play on, because as a stamsorc main who’s helped a lot of ppl when they wanted advice on stamsorc, I have received so many complaints about how stamsorc has no healing and how they can’t play the class. Please go on and play that spec for me and come back here.

Is it of any consequence though? This is not the reality we live in, because that reality features proc sets; powerful ones. And I have no doubt the next toy is already in the making as we speak.

And asking me to test your hypothetical Stamsorc build is like DaisyRay admitting that low mag Magsorc wasn't as good as high mag Magsorc. This is a weak argument telling someone to run suboptimal setups, because people will run what's strongest, not intentionally gimp themselves beyond reason. Just like your concern is those good Magsorcs you can't steamroll in duels. So even the bad Magsorcs should suffer as a consequence.

Not saying that balancing around the top isn't a logical idea. It is, and has been done so in ESO and other MMOs always. Yet, it follows that something can easily become unviable for a majority of players; which is what Magsorc was not too long ago. Stamsorc however wasn't.

Stamsorc is objectively worse than magsorc without procs. It’s not an opinion. It’s a fact.

You using the argument that BiS builds need to be taken into account is flawed. It’s the exact reason why stamsorc hasn’t gotten any buffs until recently.

If you take procs into consideration, you’re not addressing the actual class balance issue, but rather the consequences of slotting procs. Arcanist with procs is aids to deal with. Arcanist without procs does no damage. So is Arcanist overperforming or are procs overperforming? If you say Arcanist is overperforming, then congrats you don’t understand the problem with the class. If you say procs are overperforming then congrats, we can finally argue with common ground.

You have procs, and that's the only fact that matters.
Stamina Arcanist is also quite naked without procs, and is yet one of the dominant specs because of them.
You are debating theory and fantasy; a world where procs are not at your dispoal. They are, so it's a wasted discussion.

I stand by my assessment that you feel your Stamsorc threatened now where the other spec has gotten life breathed into it again, and this is why you draft up these terrifying ideas to change that again.

Dracane

I would say that Magsorc can only do its magicka stacking build thanks to Fete and Alifq, or Aegis and the passive. Maybe those will get nerfed and the build becomes as unviable as it has been for a long time. Presently this isn't the case, and warrants no discourse.

StaticWave

Dracane wrote: »

I would say that Magsorc can only do its magicka stacking build thanks to Fete and Alifq, or Aegis and the passive. Maybe those will get nerfed and the build becomes as unviable as it has been for a long time. Presently this isn't the case, and warrants no discourse.

Why would you do magicka stacking when sorc has just been given 3 strong buffs allowing the class to run other sets?

Dracane

StaticWave wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

2) Rework 1 morph of Dark Conversion.
- Having 1 morph be an instant cast burst heal with a fixed tooltip, somewhere between 10-12k, but stripped of the resource sustain, will provide the class the healing it needs without giving it a GCD advantage. You could add an extra effect on that too, like Minor Berserk and Minor Force or something.

Let's not beat around the bush. Dark Conversion in particular is the morph you wish this treatment upon. Let Magsorc suffer, so Stamsorc can be the sole king again. I doubt you would give your powerful Stamsorc variant of Dark Exchange away.

The visions you two have for Magsorc become more frightening by the day. At this point, I hope the devs will answer them with blatant disregard. You said yesterday that you want Magsorcs to fight their class on another class to see what it's like. I also would like you to fight Stamsorc on a differen class, because Stamsorc is just as crazy, and has been for much longer than this.

Your other 2 suggestions also heavily favor Stamsorc, and you know that.

4) You seem to have this notion that stamsorc was “better” than magsorc when fundamentally stamsorc was only good because of proc sets. Every stamsorc meta has been like that. Take the procs away, stamsorc was trash and ppl left the class.

If you don’t believe me, please play on a stamsorc without Pale Order, 3 procs, and no burst heal. Now hop on a magsorc and tell me what’s worse to play on, because as a stamsorc main who’s helped a lot of ppl when they wanted advice on stamsorc, I have received so many complaints about how stamsorc has no healing and how they can’t play the class. Please go on and play that spec for me and come back here.

Is it of any consequence though? This is not the reality we live in, because that reality features proc sets; powerful ones. And I have no doubt the next toy is already in the making as we speak.

And asking me to test your hypothetical Stamsorc build is like DaisyRay admitting that low mag Magsorc wasn't as good as high mag Magsorc. This is a weak argument telling someone to run suboptimal setups, because people will run what's strongest, not intentionally gimp themselves beyond reason. Just like your concern is those good Magsorcs you can't steamroll in duels. So even the bad Magsorcs should suffer as a consequence.

Not saying that balancing around the top isn't a logical idea. It is, and has been done so in ESO and other MMOs always. Yet, it follows that something can easily become unviable for a majority of players; which is what Magsorc was not too long ago. Stamsorc however wasn't.

Stamsorc is objectively worse than magsorc without procs. It’s not an opinion. It’s a fact.

You using the argument that BiS builds need to be taken into account is flawed. It’s the exact reason why stamsorc hasn’t gotten any buffs until recently.

If you take procs into consideration, you’re not addressing the actual class balance issue, but rather the consequences of slotting procs. Arcanist with procs is aids to deal with. Arcanist without procs does no damage. So is Arcanist overperforming or are procs overperforming? If you say Arcanist is overperforming, then congrats you don’t understand the problem with the class. If you say procs are overperforming then congrats, we can finally argue with common ground.

You have procs, and that's the only fact that matters.
Stamina Arcanist is also quite naked without procs, and is yet one of the dominant specs because of them.
You are debating theory and fantasy; a world where procs are not at your dispoal. They are, so it's a wasted discussion.

I stand by my assessment that you feel your Stamsorc threatened now where the other spec has gotten life breathed into it again, and this is why you draft up these terrifying ideas to change that again.

1) Okay then why are people calling for nerfs to Arcanist instead of the procs? In your “realistic” world that’s called balancing. In my world that’s called a lack of game knowledge.

2) You actually believing that I feel threatened on my stamsorc is the most hilarious thing I’ve heard on this thread.

By your logic, this change will make stamsorc even stronger and does not bridge the gap between stamsorc and magsorc lol. What makes you think a stamsorc isnt gonna slot Ward with 40k HP in 4 procs? 🤣🤣

Arcanist is not in need of nerfing, and while proc sets are strong, I also don't think they need nerfing. The problem with procs lies in how tanky they allow you to be, whilst still delivering lots of pressure or even burst. No other class achieves this as well as Arcanist. Something being strong doesn't meant it bears nerfing.

You also greatly undersell Stamsorc's damage without procs, especially as a "hybrid" Sorc with curse. Something many run. A short browse on Youtube would reveal much. I see an ocean of Stamsorc and Hybrid Sorc videos (which they, in my opinion, wrongfully sell as Magsorc videos with their bow builds) True Magsorc videos are rarer by comparison. I wonder what that says.

Stamsorc hasn't needed procs to kill ever since hybdridization, so don't give me that about lack of game knowledge. If you can't kill with Curse, Wrecking Blow and Dawnbreaker, then it isn't me who has a lack of game knowledge. Other classes manage with even less than what Stamsorc has at their disposal. I know Magsorc is strong, and I know it needs no procs. Neither does Stamsorc. So where does that leave us?

StaticWave

And I can guarantee you right now, even if you

Dracane wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

2) Rework 1 morph of Dark Conversion.
- Having 1 morph be an instant cast burst heal with a fixed tooltip, somewhere between 10-12k, but stripped of the resource sustain, will provide the class the healing it needs without giving it a GCD advantage. You could add an extra effect on that too, like Minor Berserk and Minor Force or something.

Let's not beat around the bush. Dark Conversion in particular is the morph you wish this treatment upon. Let Magsorc suffer, so Stamsorc can be the sole king again. I doubt you would give your powerful Stamsorc variant of Dark Exchange away.

The visions you two have for Magsorc become more frightening by the day. At this point, I hope the devs will answer them with blatant disregard. You said yesterday that you want Magsorcs to fight their class on another class to see what it's like. I also would like you to fight Stamsorc on a differen class, because Stamsorc is just as crazy, and has been for much longer than this.

Your other 2 suggestions also heavily favor Stamsorc, and you know that.

4) You seem to have this notion that stamsorc was “better” than magsorc when fundamentally stamsorc was only good because of proc sets. Every stamsorc meta has been like that. Take the procs away, stamsorc was trash and ppl left the class.

If you don’t believe me, please play on a stamsorc without Pale Order, 3 procs, and no burst heal. Now hop on a magsorc and tell me what’s worse to play on, because as a stamsorc main who’s helped a lot of ppl when they wanted advice on stamsorc, I have received so many complaints about how stamsorc has no healing and how they can’t play the class. Please go on and play that spec for me and come back here.

Is it of any consequence though? This is not the reality we live in, because that reality features proc sets; powerful ones. And I have no doubt the next toy is already in the making as we speak.

And asking me to test your hypothetical Stamsorc build is like DaisyRay admitting that low mag Magsorc wasn't as good as high mag Magsorc. This is a weak argument telling someone to run suboptimal setups, because people will run what's strongest, not intentionally gimp themselves beyond reason. Just like your concern is those good Magsorcs you can't steamroll in duels. So even the bad Magsorcs should suffer as a consequence.

Not saying that balancing around the top isn't a logical idea. It is, and has been done so in ESO and other MMOs always. Yet, it follows that something can easily become unviable for a majority of players; which is what Magsorc was not too long ago. Stamsorc however wasn't.

Stamsorc is objectively worse than magsorc without procs. It’s not an opinion. It’s a fact.

You using the argument that BiS builds need to be taken into account is flawed. It’s the exact reason why stamsorc hasn’t gotten any buffs until recently.

If you take procs into consideration, you’re not addressing the actual class balance issue, but rather the consequences of slotting procs. Arcanist with procs is aids to deal with. Arcanist without procs does no damage. So is Arcanist overperforming or are procs overperforming? If you say Arcanist is overperforming, then congrats you don’t understand the problem with the class. If you say procs are overperforming then congrats, we can finally argue with common ground.

You have procs, and that's the only fact that matters.
Stamina Arcanist is also quite naked without procs, and is yet one of the dominant specs because of them.
You are debating theory and fantasy; a world where procs are not at your dispoal. They are, so it's a wasted discussion.

I stand by my assessment that you feel your Stamsorc threatened now where the other spec has gotten life breathed into it again, and this is why you draft up these terrifying ideas to change that again.

1) Okay then why are people calling for nerfs to Arcanist instead of the procs? In your “realistic” world that’s called balancing. In my world that’s called a lack of game knowledge.

2) You actually believing that I feel threatened on my stamsorc is the most hilarious thing I’ve heard on this thread.

By your logic, this change will make stamsorc even stronger and does not bridge the gap between stamsorc and magsorc lol. What makes you think a stamsorc isnt gonna slot Ward with 40k HP in 4 procs? 🤣🤣

Arcanist is not in need of nerfing, and while proc sets are strong, I also don't think they need nerfing. The problem with procs lies in how tanky they allow you to be, whilst still delivering lots of pressure or even burst. No other class achieves this as well as Arcanist. Something being strong doesn't meant it bears nerfing.

You also greatly undersell Stamsorc's damage without procs, especially as a "hybrid" Sorc with curse. Something many run. A short browse on Youtube would reveal much. I see an ocean of Stamsorc and Hybrid Sorc videos (which they, in my opinion, wrongfully sell as Magsorc videos with their bow builds) True Magsorc videos are rarer by comparison. I wonder what that says.

Stamsorc hasn't needed procs to kill ever since hybdridization, so don't give me that about lack of game knowledge. If you can't kill with Curse, Wrecking Blow and Dawnbreaker, then it isn't me who has a lack of game knowledge. Other classes manage with even less than what Stamsorc has at their disposal. I know Magsorc is strong, and I know it needs no procs. Neither does Stamsorc. So where does that leave us?

1) Yes, I know about those hybrid builds. I also make some of them and give out to people who asked for my advice.

2) Curse and Wrecking Blow is the easiest combo to counter lol. Yea please Wrecking Blow me while I block all of them and use B4B while blocking to hit you back. Good players don’t die to a Wrecking Blow stamsorc. It’s a pug stomper at best.

3) The only spec truly strong on Dizzying Swing is a max mag stacking Sorc. Guess why it’s strong? Because of max mag stacking and a 15k shield. Every stamsorc main is going max mag this patch. That’s how broken this skill is.

xylena_lazarow

@Dracane do you PvP competitively? Have you spent years optimizing Sorc PvP builds?

Dracane

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

@Dracane do you PvP competitively? Have you spent years optimizing Sorc PvP builds?

Yes indeed, and I am an ethusiastic theorycrafter. My husband grows quite tired of me inviting him to the PTS every day. I have been around since 2014. I see you have been around since 2017. A long time as well to be sure.

StaticWave

And not trying to sound elitist but you’re talking to a seasoned stamsorc main who’s strictly played at a competitive level. I know every single stamsorc combo by heart and I know exactly what to do to counter them, including the “Wrecking Blow + Curse” combo you mentioned.

It’s like me telling Jsmalls how to play his magsorc when I’m not playing magsorc at the same competitive level. Yes, stamsorc with procs was stronger than magsorc, but stamsorc without procs was not stronger than magsorc. Stamsorc with procs is weaker than magsorc this patch, and stamsorc without procs is also weaker.

Dracane

StaticWave wrote: »

1) Yes, I know about those hybrid builds. I also make some of them and give out to people who asked for my advice.

2) Curse and Wrecking Blow is the easiest combo to counter lol. Yea please Wrecking Blow me while I block all of them and use B4B while blocking to hit you back. Good players don’t die to a Wrecking Blow stamsorc. It’s a pug stomper at best.

3) The only spec truly strong on Dizzying Swing is a max mag stacking Sorc. Guess why it’s strong? Because of max mag stacking and a 15k shield. Every stamsorc main is going max mag this patch. That’s how broken this skill is.

I had no doubts you know of them. I stand by what I say, that I am a vivid enjoyer of your build crafting.
Sorcerer is a telegraphed class, and that is true for both specs, and yet we have been killing people since the beginning of time, even very good ones. And Wrecking Blow has been killing good and bad people since the skill became viable; and that remains tue. I am also very cautious with chasing builds that I deem easily countered (because I know they would never work against me personally) but not everyone is me, or you. Things just work out in the end.

Else Stamdens wouldn't be so successful, and I can't think of a more predictable spec than Stamden.
I know the dilemma, but I don't think it reigns true.

Dracane

StaticWave wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

It doesn't help that now where you are out of arguments, you bring your friend Xylena along and try to fish for a confession along the lines of "I have never actually pvped, I have no idea what I am actually talking about, I never played Stamsorc or anything for that matter."

I brought myself here, thanks. You make claims I would not expect a competitive Sorc player to make.

Dracane wrote: »

I haven't used Surge in pvp in 8 years

Dracane wrote: »

Magsorc has nothing else that truly combines offense and defense as of now.

Very specifically, correctly using Surge and Streak is a significant skill barrier that you have not passed.

Surge is literally one of the best HoTs in the game if you build enough crit chance. Why would anyone not use it on a magsorc (which gets crit chance easier with light armor)?

It must have been 4 years by now that I dropped shield stacking for the final time, and began to run a single ward, magicka stacking setup long before Bound Aegis was what it is now, and long before other Magsorcs even considered dropping Annulment.

I ran without Surge or other healing sources with no major problems. Not everyone can make that work, and it's not a setup I would have recommended, but it worked for me. I prefer that assassin playstyle instead of being an indomitable brawler. So yea, Ward suddenly healing improved a major flaw in my playstyle, and it became viable for a broader audience.

Dracane

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

I never bothered with people who understand no other language than graphs and numbers, who disregard all anecdotal accounts as "feelings."

My casual anecdotal account is that Ward is broken op bc it makes Sorcs way too tanky and unfun to fight against.

And that is fine. This is actually how most people on the internet argue, instead of waving random sheets in people's faces, and denouncing everyone's elses accounts as unviable.

StaticWave

Dracane wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Tell me, have you posted a single CMX screenshot of each PvP mode? I base all my testing around that and it’s difficult to argue on merely words with ppl on the forums.

I can't say I have. You can tell by me not even remembering its name, and that is for good reason.
Your obsession with CMX has worked us into this corner. For you, it's gospel. For me, and evidently many others here, it's something inbetween not convincing and biased.

I never bothered with people who understand no other language than graphs and numbers, who disregard all anecdotal accounts as "feelings." Numbers are important, I cherish them; but in this argument, they seem more like half-truths. Your CMX reports are a hint, but as many have pointed out; not waterproof.

But you are right. The game isn't what it used to be, and most of your adversaries have by now agreed to support certain nerfs. Me too. This should serve as decent proof that we very well are seasoned pvps, not only you, and that it's therefore we have different experiences and standpoints. We are not green because our mileage varies. Though I think you can't stop until everyone just gives up second guessing your comments, so that you emerge as the sole victor. This isn't going to happen. Well, maybe it will; but that would be more sad than victorious.

There is a reason CMX is used by every single competitive PvEr to improve their group by looking at buff uptimes and DPS of each member.

It’s a fundamental aspect of competitive PvE and PvP. You can’t rely on pure feelings. You need concrete numbers to work around and improve your gameplay.

Take the CMX screenshot of a 1v3 I repeatedly posted in this thread as an example:



Do you notice the total DPS I took for that entire fight? 4.9k DPS total average from several players. My build can tank up to 6.4k DPS before I die.

If I can survive 6k DPS in a 1v1, then several players doing a combined 4.9k DPS isn’t going to kill me. It’s equivalent to 1 player hitting me with a 10k Molten Whip vs 3 players hitting me with a combined 10k Whip. If I can shrug off a 10k Whip from 1 person, then I can shrug off 10k total Whip from 3 people.

Of course there’s the nuance of a 1v1 vs a 3v1, but if 3 ppl are barely doing the same damage as 1 person, then basic numbers dictate the fight. That is why CMX is so important.

Dracane

StaticWave wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Tell me, have you posted a single CMX screenshot of each PvP mode? I base all my testing around that and it’s difficult to argue on merely words with ppl on the forums.

I can't say I have. You can tell by me not even remembering its name, and that is for good reason.
Your obsession with CMX has worked us into this corner. For you, it's gospel. For me, and evidently many others here, it's something inbetween not convincing and biased.

I never bothered with people who understand no other language than graphs and numbers, who disregard all anecdotal accounts as "feelings." Numbers are important, I cherish them; but in this argument, they seem more like half-truths. Your CMX reports are a hint, but as many have pointed out; not waterproof.

But you are right. The game isn't what it used to be, and most of your adversaries have by now agreed to support certain nerfs. Me too. This should serve as decent proof that we very well are seasoned pvps, not only you, and that it's therefore we have different experiences and standpoints. We are not green because our mileage varies. Though I think you can't stop until everyone just gives up second guessing your comments, so that you emerge as the sole victor. This isn't going to happen. Well, maybe it will; but that would be more sad than victorious.

There is a reason CMX is used by every single competitive PvEr to improve their group by looking at buff uptimes and DPS of each member.

It’s a fundamental aspect of competitive PvE and PvP. You can’t rely on pure feelings. You need concrete numbers to work around and improve your gameplay.

Take the CMX screenshot of a 1v3 I repeatedly posted in this thread as an example:



Do you notice the total DPS I took for that entire fight? 4.9k DPS total average from several players. My build can tank up to 6.4k DPS before I die.

If I can survive 6k DPS in a 1v1, then several players doing a combined 4.9k DPS isn’t going to kill me. It’s equivalent to 1 player hitting me with a 10k Molten Whip vs 3 players hitting me with a combined 10k Whip. If I can shrug off a 10k Whip from 1 person, then I can shrug off 10k total Whip from 3 people.

Of course there’s the nuance of a 1v1 vs a 3v1, but if 3 ppl are barely doing the same damage as 1 person, then basic numbers dictate the fight. That is why CMX is so important.

Okay sorry, I was unfocused there. I use this alot for documentation (see image); I just had no idea what the name is. This is a bit embarassing.

You are correct, it is pivotal to that end. I use it a lot on the pts for pvp combo comparisons, and pve. I just wouldn't trust in this nearly enough to make a statement over what overperforms in pvp and what not, unless it is a staged fight where I set the parameter. Granted, you did set the parameter from what I read, but parameter don't exist on the battlefield.

We already figured out that Ward, and defense in general, outdoes offense in 1v1 situations. Doesn't matter much though, because defenses are made to last against multiple opponents for at least a while, and Ward has achieved this status with the recent changes.

Bushido2513

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Tell you what. I think it would get my point across better if the magsorc mains in this thread try fighting a magsorc as ANOTHER class. It would really make arguing with yall a lot easier when you can experience what it’s like to fight your own class lol.

This will really depend on your end goal for the fight or gameplay session and that's a point I think is being left out. Your build is going to depend on your playstyle or confidence on that class but that can vary wildly and so what does that really tell us about anything?

Most of my builds tend to be geared towards survival with an ability to take out some opponents and to gang up on others. I'm planning on a win, a stalemate, or a win using numbers. So for me fighting any class using any class goes about the same. Does that mean my view or way of fighting is better or worse, not really. Should we use my style as a benchmark for ward in any way shape or form, absolutely not because that wouldn't take into account others that don't play the way I do.


So when you present samples and say look at this. I can only say ok that applies to any player that plays the way you do, uses a build similar to yours, and is in fights like the one you're representing. What I don't know is how many players out of the player base that would amount to.

You’re dancing around the request Bushido. It’s a simple request

The end goal is to get kills. Every class will have a BiS build or a list of good builds to choose from.

So my request is any magsorc main here needs to hop on another class and use the respective BiS build for said class, then fight several magsorcs with BiS builds ranging from casual to top tier. Then come back here and tell everyone their experience so we can have a more accurate argument.

Ok so before I go and do this test I just want to know. Does ganking count and does zerging/using overwhelming numbers to kill them count?

Because if you just want me to fight them 1v1 I've already said I believe they have an advantage there but that the game isn't balanced behind this so it's relatively unimportant.

Yes, everything counts

Oh also how am I supposed to know their builds and if they are casual or top tier? I could zerg surf on a tanky plar with high regen and just spam beam and turtle up as needed but if I just wait till 3 other people get them low I'm not really going to know much about their build or skill level.

So maybe your test is already asking something that's not easily known or that's going to leave it to the judgement of the tester, which isn't exactly a reliable test no?

Just do whatever while keeping in mind how your sorc would do on the same situation. Does ot match the same survivability and killing and staying power? Just as easy or hard?

Feels like you're trying to over complicate this

Well I wouldn't play it the same as I would play my sorc and that was my point. I was just going to go in as a tanky zergling looking to steal kills and run off if the odds weren't in my favor.

On sorc I would play more aggressively and do the killing myself but my point was to test this from a zergling / casual point of view which presents another view but also makes it easier on me for testing purposes.

But then as I though about it I was like hey how am I supposed to know much about their build or capabilities if I'm never really trying to directly engage them or be engaged until it's time for them to die anyways?

This just came to me because I haven't played this way in quite some time but I think it's important to represent because there are a lot of players out there that just group up and don't think in as much detail as we are putting into this thread. They also aren't going to be in this thread likely because again they're casual. Still though a possible silent group still needs to be considered here I'd think.

StaticWave

Dracane wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Tell me, have you posted a single CMX screenshot of each PvP mode? I base all my testing around that and it’s difficult to argue on merely words with ppl on the forums.

I can't say I have. You can tell by me not even remembering its name, and that is for good reason.
Your obsession with CMX has worked us into this corner. For you, it's gospel. For me, and evidently many others here, it's something inbetween not convincing and biased.

I never bothered with people who understand no other language than graphs and numbers, who disregard all anecdotal accounts as "feelings." Numbers are important, I cherish them; but in this argument, they seem more like half-truths. Your CMX reports are a hint, but as many have pointed out; not waterproof.

But you are right. The game isn't what it used to be, and most of your adversaries have by now agreed to support certain nerfs. Me too. This should serve as decent proof that we very well are seasoned pvps, not only you, and that it's therefore we have different experiences and standpoints. We are not green because our mileage varies. Though I think you can't stop until everyone just gives up second guessing your comments, so that you emerge as the sole victor. This isn't going to happen. Well, maybe it will; but that would be more sad than victorious.

There is a reason CMX is used by every single competitive PvEr to improve their group by looking at buff uptimes and DPS of each member.

It’s a fundamental aspect of competitive PvE and PvP. You can’t rely on pure feelings. You need concrete numbers to work around and improve your gameplay.

Take the CMX screenshot of a 1v3 I repeatedly posted in this thread as an example:



Do you notice the total DPS I took for that entire fight? 4.9k DPS total average from several players. My build can tank up to 6.4k DPS before I die.

If I can survive 6k DPS in a 1v1, then several players doing a combined 4.9k DPS isn’t going to kill me. It’s equivalent to 1 player hitting me with a 10k Molten Whip vs 3 players hitting me with a combined 10k Whip. If I can shrug off a 10k Whip from 1 person, then I can shrug off 10k total Whip from 3 people.

Of course there’s the nuance of a 1v1 vs a 3v1, but if 3 ppl are barely doing the same damage as 1 person, then basic numbers dictate the fight. That is why CMX is so important.

Okay sorry, I was unfocused there. I use this alot for documentation (see image); I just had no idea what the name is. This is a bit embarassing.

You are correct, it is pivotal to that end. I use it a lot on the pts for pvp combo comparisons, and pve. I just wouldn't trust in this nearly enough to make a statement over what overperforms in pvp and what not, unless it is a staged fight where I set the parameter. Granted, you did set the parameter from what I read, but parameter don't exist on the battlefield.

We already figured out that Ward, and defense in general, outdoes offense in 1v1 situations. Doesn't matter much though, because defenses are made to last against multiple opponents for at least a while, and Ward has achieved this status with the recent changes.

I agree, parameters don’t exist in the battlefield, but that doesn’t mean your DPS limit is dependent on those parameters.

The parameters in a duel are:

- I’m taking 5k DPS from 1 player
- I’m also not actively using LoS, which is frowned upon.
- I’m also not running away from the fight to thin out the herd
- I’m also bound by a fixed dueling radius

Let’s say you want to know how much DPS you can sustain before dying. You use a controlled environment, aka a duel, and discover your build can survive 5k DPS. Anything higher than 5k DPS, you die.

In an uncontrolled environment, aka a BG match or Cyrodiil fight, there are no parameters. However, that 5k DPS limit should NOT change if you are strictly solo. Anytime you take more than 5k DPS, whether it be from 1 person or multiple ppl, you will die.

What will change though, is extra DPS from your opponents. You maybe taking 10k DPS now instead of 5k, which obviously exceeds your limit and you die as a result. You maybe taking LESS DPS, and you somehow survive despite having multiple ppl attacking. That is why 1vXers can seemingly survive a group of 5-6 ppl spamming light attacks. 5-6 light attacks aren’t gonna do enough DPS to kill someone that can tank 5k DPS.

Then we have to factor in the ability to use LoS and the ability to kite indefinitely. If 3 ppl can do a combined 10k DPS on me while my build can only survive 5k DPS, then by technicality I should die. However, I can reduce that DPS to 4.9k by abusing Los and kiting, allowing me to live.

So when I say I’m easily face tanking 5k DPS in a 1v1 with 1 skill, then I can equivalently say I’m easily surviving 5k DPS in a 1v3 with 1 skill. The only difference is I’m using more LoS and kiting. I’m not magically gaining 5 more bar slots lol.

StaticWave

Oh and here’s another argument to add to that point:

- It’s a heck lot easier to survive 1 person with 5k HPS than 3k HPS. It’s also a lot easier to survive 3 ppl with 5k HPS than 3k HPS.

Seriously, a 3k HPS build is going to STRUGGLE to survive vs 3 ppl. A 5k HPS build? Not as much.

What about a build that can tank 8k DPS in a 1v1? Well, that “hypothetical” scenario just happens to allow you to also tank 8k DPS in a 1v3. It’s definitely better than tanking 3 ppl with 5k HPS lol. I can guarantee you if I was a magsorc in that 1v3 clip of mine, I will not have to kite as often. I will kill those melee players pretty quickly before moving on to the magsorc.

Dracane

StaticWave wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Tell me, have you posted a single CMX screenshot of each PvP mode? I base all my testing around that and it’s difficult to argue on merely words with ppl on the forums.

I can't say I have. You can tell by me not even remembering its name, and that is for good reason.
Your obsession with CMX has worked us into this corner. For you, it's gospel. For me, and evidently many others here, it's something inbetween not convincing and biased.

I never bothered with people who understand no other language than graphs and numbers, who disregard all anecdotal accounts as "feelings." Numbers are important, I cherish them; but in this argument, they seem more like half-truths. Your CMX reports are a hint, but as many have pointed out; not waterproof.

But you are right. The game isn't what it used to be, and most of your adversaries have by now agreed to support certain nerfs. Me too. This should serve as decent proof that we very well are seasoned pvps, not only you, and that it's therefore we have different experiences and standpoints. We are not green because our mileage varies. Though I think you can't stop until everyone just gives up second guessing your comments, so that you emerge as the sole victor. This isn't going to happen. Well, maybe it will; but that would be more sad than victorious.

There is a reason CMX is used by every single competitive PvEr to improve their group by looking at buff uptimes and DPS of each member.

It’s a fundamental aspect of competitive PvE and PvP. You can’t rely on pure feelings. You need concrete numbers to work around and improve your gameplay.

Take the CMX screenshot of a 1v3 I repeatedly posted in this thread as an example:



Do you notice the total DPS I took for that entire fight? 4.9k DPS total average from several players. My build can tank up to 6.4k DPS before I die.

If I can survive 6k DPS in a 1v1, then several players doing a combined 4.9k DPS isn’t going to kill me. It’s equivalent to 1 player hitting me with a 10k Molten Whip vs 3 players hitting me with a combined 10k Whip. If I can shrug off a 10k Whip from 1 person, then I can shrug off 10k total Whip from 3 people.

Of course there’s the nuance of a 1v1 vs a 3v1, but if 3 ppl are barely doing the same damage as 1 person, then basic numbers dictate the fight. That is why CMX is so important.

Okay sorry, I was unfocused there. I use this alot for documentation (see image); I just had no idea what the name is. This is a bit embarassing.

You are correct, it is pivotal to that end. I use it a lot on the pts for pvp combo comparisons, and pve. I just wouldn't trust in this nearly enough to make a statement over what overperforms in pvp and what not, unless it is a staged fight where I set the parameter. Granted, you did set the parameter from what I read, but parameter don't exist on the battlefield.

We already figured out that Ward, and defense in general, outdoes offense in 1v1 situations. Doesn't matter much though, because defenses are made to last against multiple opponents for at least a while, and Ward has achieved this status with the recent changes.

I agree, parameters don’t exist in the battlefield, but that doesn’t mean your DPS limit is dependent on those parameters.

The parameters in a duel are:

- I’m taking 5k DPS from 1 player
- I’m also not actively using LoS, which is frowned upon.
- I’m also not running away from the fight to thin out the herd
- I’m also bound by a fixed dueling radius

Let’s say you want to know how much DPS you can sustain before dying. You use a controlled environment, aka a duel, and discover your build can survive 5k DPS. Anything higher than 5k DPS, you die.

In an uncontrolled environment, aka a BG match or Cyrodiil fight, there are no parameters. However, that 5k DPS limit should NOT change if you are strictly solo. Anytime you take more than 5k DPS, whether it be from 1 person or multiple ppl, you will die.

What will change though, is extra DPS from your opponents. You maybe taking 10k DPS now instead of 5k, which obviously exceeds your limit and you die as a result. You maybe taking LESS DPS, and you somehow survive despite having multiple ppl attacking. That is why 1vXers can seemingly survive a group of 5-6 ppl spamming light attacks. 5-6 light attacks aren’t gonna do enough DPS to kill someone that can tank 5k DPS.

Then we have to factor in the ability to use LoS and the ability to kite indefinitely. If 3 ppl can do a combined 10k DPS on me while my build can only survive 5k DPS, then by technicality I should die. However, I can reduce that DPS to 4.9k by abusing Los and kiting, allowing me to live.

So when I say I’m easily face tanking 5k DPS in a 1v1 with 1 skill, then I can equivalently say I’m easily surviving 5k DPS in a 1v3 with 1 skill. The only difference is I’m using more LoS and kiting. I’m not magically gaining 5 more bar slots lol.

My guideline for DPS incoming is whether that DPS equals the amount of healing I produce per second.
So if the enemy deals 5k DPS and I can sustain up to 5k, then the fight is a low pressure fight in my book, a comfortable one. If the enemy exceeds those 5k dps, this does not mean I die that instance. It means I can't just facetank forever, and can't have a comfortable offensive window non stop.

My optimum is 2 seconds. I want my ward to endure for 2 seconds against an enemy, which allows me a decent offensive momentum without having to sweat too much. Against bad players, that could even be 4 seconds, at which point I am basically on vacation.

Survival strategies absolutely have to endure one opponent rather comfortably, for else you trip over the moment you face several (which is the majority of pvp) This is why I will never agree with duels as a guideline for balance. I don't disregard it, because they do happen in the wild too, and yes it can be frustrating, (against any class) but I would not lead this as my flagship for a balance discussion.

ZOS_Hadeostry

Greetings,

After removing some unnecessary back and forth from this thread, we would like everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, civil, and constructive.

If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to review them here

Bushido2513

DaisyRay wrote: »

I would also argue that we are the ones to say what is too far and what isn't. We are the players and these forums are a place for us to lend our opinions on these type of things. We don't make the final decision, but I think it's good for the dev team to see what actual players think of their changes. Then they decide in the end what they want to do after reading all the opinions.

I think it's good but should always be taken with a grain of salt. I played this game for years before I got on the forum and I'm pretty sure the majority of the population isn't actually registered for the forums. It doesn't mean they don't have opinions but just that they won't be seen or heard here. So there's a lot of players that think things about the game that we just never get to hear and I think that's also important to keep in mind rather than assume that the vocal people on here are speaking for them as well.

StaticWave

Dracane wrote: »

Survival strategies absolutely have to endure one opponent rather comfortably, for else you trip over the moment you face several (which is the majority of pvp) This is why I will never agree with duels as a guideline for balance. I don't disregard it, because they do happen in the wild too, and yes it can be frustrating, (against any class) but I would not lead this as my flagship for a balance discussion.

Then every single concern about how tanky other classes are should also be a non-concern. Nobody should complain about how NB, DK, Arc, etc are tanky because they will also fold when faced with overwhelming numbers.

Even if they can tank overwhelming number of players, they aren't going to do big damage unless they're grouped with other players.

No classes should get nerfed then. Is this what you want?

nbksaske

I'd like to chime in and give my view on this as a ps5 player.

So I'm more of a see where the fights are and head in that direction, no grouping.
I am far from a good player but i get stuck in, put seige down, camps, repair and get players up.

My tooltip says hardened absorbs around 10k and heals for 7k with 42k max mag, but as i prefer bigger fights that shield just drops fast and the heal (for me) does just enough from stopping me dying (sometimes) as long as i stay extremely mobile.

Now while i am happy sorcs are finally in a good spot with a decent burst heal, I'd argue that wardens and Dk's healing is far superior as i just can not get some of them into execute range with enough time to get the kill - probably a learn to play issue for sure, but healing is getting really strong as a whole along with the tanky meta.

So while this whole thread is about tuning it down/nerfing it, from my point of view and playstyle, it's not saving me from multiple meteors, dawnbreakers or the convergence + collosus dump, even with shielding and popping a vigor.

I don't have a solution, but i thought I'd share my view as a more casual pvper.

StaticWave

nbksaske wrote: »

I'd like to chime in and give my view on this as a ps5 player.

So I'm more of a see where the fights are and head in that direction, no grouping.
I am far from a good player but i get stuck in, put seige down, camps, repair and get players up.

My tooltip says hardened absorbs around 10k and heals for 7k with 42k max mag, but as i prefer bigger fights that shield just drops fast and the heal (for me) does just enough from stopping me dying (sometimes) as long as i stay extremely mobile.

Now while i am happy sorcs are finally in a good spot with a decent burst heal, I'd argue that wardens and Dk's healing is far superior as i just can not get some of them into execute range with enough time to get the kill - probably a learn to play issue for sure, but healing is getting really strong as a whole along with the tanky meta.

So while this whole thread is about tuning it down/nerfing it, from my point of view and playstyle, it's not saving me from multiple meteors, dawnbreakers or the convergence + collosus dump, even with shielding and popping a vigor.

I don't have a solution, but i thought I'd share my view as a more casual pvper.

No Warden or DK is surviving in a large encounter. Here's a clip of a Warden, an Arc, and my Sorc trying to survive against a small zerg:

https://youtu.be/ZQmE6WwJ8dc

You could see several things in this clip:

- Both the Warden and Arc have to run to the nearest LoS to survive
- I can Streak away from danger at any moment
- If we group up, I will always be the last one to survive because of Streak. My teammates will soak up damage for me
- I can get to LoS much quicker than a Warden or Arc

I have been in this scenario countless times and it's always true. Streak allows me to survive in overwhelming situations like this where no other class can pull off. It's just an objective fact. Here's another 3vX clip of me doing the same thing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8DIXiM6E4c&t=38s

While my Warden and Plar friend died I could effortlessly kite a 20 man zerg around IC sewers. This was during when procs were extremely strong as well. I did all of that without a burst heal.

So yes, I understand your concern as a casual player, but let's also not forget how strong Streak can be if you abuse it (aka stack movement speed). There is no need for Shield to have a burst heal underneath

DaisyRay

Bushido2513 wrote: »

DaisyRay wrote: »

I would also argue that we are the ones to say what is too far and what isn't. We are the players and these forums are a place for us to lend our opinions on these type of things. We don't make the final decision, but I think it's good for the dev team to see what actual players think of their changes. Then they decide in the end what they want to do after reading all the opinions.

I think it's good but should always be taken with a grain of salt. I played this game for years before I got on the forum and I'm pretty sure the majority of the population isn't actually registered for the forums. It doesn't mean they don't have opinions but just that they won't be seen or heard here. So there's a lot of players that think things about the game that we just never get to hear and I think that's also important to keep in mind rather than assume that the vocal people on here are speaking for them as well.

That may be true, but that's kind of on them. As soon as I found the forums I signed up because I had a lot to say lol. I think in a game like this, communicating with the devs help them help us. So I encourage everyone to sign up for the forums and share their opinion, no matter what side they land on. It doesn't mean you have to believe it blindly, but it opens up a bigger conversation. Like this one, we're almost 50 pages in. I feel bad for whatever zos people has to go through and read it all.

Zabagad

DaisyRay wrote: »

I feel bad for whatever zos people has to go through and read it all.

We could make it easier for them if we (all) end any comment (and edit first post) with an:
@ZOS - Make the heal on "Hardened Ward" as a HoT pls.