Status Effect Rework Analysis (Good Change)

MashmalloMan

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

you might want to try running the shock enchantment on the back-bar weapon instead of weapon damage. this seems to perform well in single-target with this new patch due to the changes to status effects. and maybe a flame enchantment on your front-bar. i'm testing this out on my frost warden and i've found that initially, running 2 damage enchantments on my weapons either performs on the same level as running weapon damage on the back, or possibly better. you might want to run the charged trait on your front-bar instead of precise if you try it.

Very interesting suggestion! When I heard this suggestion I immediately tried it.
But unfortunately, it seems that because Sorc does not have a passive ability similar to Glacial Presence, the overall damage is reduced. (Reduced by about 3~4K)

that's a shame, i wish concussed had something similar for sorc.

damn, that's a shame.

This would be nice indeed, maybe something for ZOS to consider if they ever decide to tidy up sorcs passives (like capacitor).

Totally, I wish they did something like this:

• Capacitor
  • Remove 10% mag regen.
  • Add +x% status effect chance for Physical and Shock damage.
  • Add when proccing Concussed or Sundered deal x physical/shock damage to 2 nearby enemies.
• Daedric Protection
  • Remove +20% HP/Stam regen for slotting a Daedric Summoning skill.
  • Add +150 HP/Stam/Mag regen, no slot requirement needed.
  • Expert Summoner and Rebate already restrict Sorcs to skills in this line, there is no need for 3/4 passives to be handled the same way.
• Lightning Splash
  • Add increased chance to proc Concussed.
  • Add an aoe direct damage hit on cast like Templar's Shards or DK's Cloud.
  • Lower the dot damage to balance out the upfront damage.
  • This adds an aoe spammable to Sorc's kit. The dot portion of the ability becomes more about proccing concussed and the synergy, rather than the damage itself which is often not worth it.
  
  Thought process:
  Just some quick examples, but these few changes would improve the Storm mage identity lost from Implosion passive removal. Introduce a bit more cleave where Sorc is lacking, while not effecting their single target dps in a drastic way where pet sorc is doing fine (no pet sorc is the playstyle that is still behind).
  
  Lightning Splash is missing flavour and damage the other class aoe dots bring, it's not worth slotting and is the first skill to go. I by no means think concussed would fix it completely because it still doesn't have a Winter's Revenge/Boneyard 30% modifier like those skills do, but this would be a nice start on the subject of status effects and fits better with Sorc's general class skill structure of being mostly direct damage focused, rather than dot.
  
  For the suggested regen changes. ZOS expressed an interest in moving to flat values instead of modifiers a few years back, but they haven't really followed through on it. They made these changes with Races, Necromancer's 200 mag/stam regen, CP 2.0, and Arcanists 129 stam/mag/hp regen for slotting.
  
  20% is deceptively weaker than it sounds. Necro's 200 mag/stam regen with basic modifiers like pot/armor is 300 and can scale higher. For Sorc's 20% to match 300 return, you would need a base regen of 1500. With the base 500 characters have, you would need a sustain set like Wretched Vitality + stam/stam regen food. No one runs this much. Now imagine the 3000 mag regen you'd need for Capacitor to be worth anything. It's no wonder Mag Sorc has sustain issues.
  
  140ish flat regen is a lot more flexible for build diversity. It's less than Necro's 200, because we have 6% cost reduction as well and it effects HP regen, seems like a fair balance to me.
  
  @ESO_Nightingale We talked about this whole regen situation with Warden too. They only have 12% mag/stam regen and a 250 return on Green balance healing they can't fully utilize. Necro has a flat 200 I went over above + return on kill. Arcanist has +18% mag/stam, crux return any build can use, and the 129 stam/mag/hp for slotting tank skills. I'm sure you agree with my sentiment.

Turtle_Bot

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

you might want to try running the shock enchantment on the back-bar weapon instead of weapon damage. this seems to perform well in single-target with this new patch due to the changes to status effects. and maybe a flame enchantment on your front-bar. i'm testing this out on my frost warden and i've found that initially, running 2 damage enchantments on my weapons either performs on the same level as running weapon damage on the back, or possibly better. you might want to run the charged trait on your front-bar instead of precise if you try it.

Very interesting suggestion! When I heard this suggestion I immediately tried it.
But unfortunately, it seems that because Sorc does not have a passive ability similar to Glacial Presence, the overall damage is reduced. (Reduced by about 3~4K)

that's a shame, i wish concussed had something similar for sorc.

damn, that's a shame.

This would be nice indeed, maybe something for ZOS to consider if they ever decide to tidy up sorcs passives (like capacitor).

Totally, I wish they did something like this:

• Capacitor
  • Remove 10% mag regen.
  • Add +x% status effect chance for Physical and Shock damage.
  • Add when proccing Concussed or Sundered deal x physical/shock damage to 2 nearby enemies.
• Daedric Protection
  • Remove +20% HP/Stam regen for slotting a Daedric Summoning skill.
  • Add +150 HP/Stam/Mag regen, no slot requirement needed.
  • Expert Summoner and Rebate already restrict Sorcs to skills in this line, there is no need for 3/4 passives to be handled the same way.
• Lightning Splash
  • Add increased chance to proc Concussed.
  • Add an aoe direct damage hit on cast like Templar's Shards or DK's Cloud.
  • Lower the dot damage to balance out the upfront damage.
  • This adds an aoe spammable to Sorc's kit. The dot portion of the ability becomes more about proccing concussed and the synergy, rather than the damage itself which is often not worth it.
  
  Thought process:
  Just some quick examples, but these few changes would improve the Storm mage identity lost from Implosion passive removal. Introduce a bit more cleave where Sorc is lacking, while not effecting their single target dps in a drastic way where pet sorc is doing fine (no pet sorc is the playstyle that is still behind).
  
  Lightning Splash is missing flavour and damage the other class aoe dots bring, it's not worth slotting and is the first skill to go. I by no means think concussed would fix it completely because it still doesn't have a Winter's Revenge/Boneyard 30% modifier like those skills do, but this would be a nice start on the subject of status effects and fits better with Sorc's general class skill structure of being mostly direct damage focused, rather than dot.
  
  For the suggested regen changes. ZOS expressed an interest in moving to flat values instead of modifiers a few years back, but they haven't really followed through on it. They made these changes with Races, Necromancer's 200 mag/stam regen, CP 2.0, and Arcanists 129 stam/mag/hp regen for slotting.
  
  20% is deceptively weaker than it sounds. Necro's 200 mag/stam regen with basic modifiers like pot/armor is 300 and can scale higher. For Sorc's 20% to match 300 return, you would need a base regen of 1500. With the base 500 characters have, you would need a sustain set like Wretched Vitality + stam/stam regen food. No one runs this much. Now imagine the 3000 mag regen you'd need for Capacitor to be worth anything. It's no wonder Mag Sorc has sustain issues.
  
  140ish flat regen is a lot more flexible for build diversity. It's less than Necro's 200, because we have 6% cost reduction as well and it effects HP regen, seems like a fair balance to me.
  
  @ESO_Nightingale We talked about this whole regen situation with Warden too. They only have 12% mag/stam regen and a 250 return on Green balance healing they can't fully utilize. Necro has a flat 200 I went over above + return on kill. Arcanist has +18% mag/stam, crux return any build can use, and the 129 stam/mag/hp for slotting tank skills. I'm sure you agree with my sentiment.

I'd love to see these changes done.

I've always thought that capacitor and daedric protection needed combining into 1 passive and a new passive made for capacitor, just never sure what to put there, but the bonus chance to proc concussed/sundered and small bonus AoE damage when they proc is a great idea.

Putting the synergy damage as an upfront AoE direct damage would be good for lightning splash, the DoT portion already doesn't have enough damage to warrant removing any of that for an upfront burst of damage. The ability still needs its unmentioned, 0.4s cast time removed though, that delay just makes the skill so clunky to use.

Billium813

With Carve, Barbed Trap, and Pillar of Nirn, it feels real difficult to get the Hemorrhaging stacks to 3

2H without Charged


2H with Charged (with Flame Enchant)


This is a dummy parse too. In the wild, I doubt I would get this good uptime and it's still bad. I mean, how many Bleed effects do I have to run to actually get to 3 stacks reliably? This just feels worse then Burning on average. At least Burning just does what it does and doesn't need 3 Burning Skills and a 5 piece set to get to 3 stacks 15% of the time.

I mean, 1 Flame Enchant vs 2 Bleed Skills and 1 Bleed set

ESO_Nightingale

Billium813 wrote: »

With Carve, Barbed Trap, and Pillar of Nirn, it feels real difficult to get the Hemorrhaging stacks to 3

2H without Charged


2H with Charged (with Flame Enchant)


This is a dummy parse too. In the wild, I doubt I would get this good uptime and it's still bad. I mean, how many Bleed effects do I have to run to actually get to 3 stacks reliably? This just feels worse then Burning on average. At least Burning just does what it does and doesn't need 3 Burning Skills and a 5 piece set to get to 3 stacks 15% of the time.

I mean, 1 Flame Enchant vs 2 Bleed Skills and 1 Bleed set

I believe this is the intention. Zos wants you to use more than just a standard settup's number of bleed sources in order to max it out. You have to invest in it. Carve, barbed trap and pillar of nirn are used on most endgame dps builds. 2 stacks is enough to equal burning's total output. But 3 does more total dps than burning so it's a lot more fair if you have to invest that bit more into bleeds on your build. That being said, not having a bleed enchant hurts a bit. Absorb health is the perfect target to change.

MashmalloMan

Billium813 wrote: »

With Carve, Barbed Trap, and Pillar of Nirn, it feels real difficult to get the Hemorrhaging stacks to 3

2H without Charged


2H with Charged (with Flame Enchant)


This is a dummy parse too. In the wild, I doubt I would get this good uptime and it's still bad. I mean, how many Bleed effects do I have to run to actually get to 3 stacks reliably? This just feels worse then Burning on average. At least Burning just does what it does and doesn't need 3 Burning Skills and a 5 piece set to get to 3 stacks 15% of the time.

I mean, 1 Flame Enchant vs 2 Bleed Skills and 1 Bleed set

Good, I see no issue here. None of those 3 effects are single target direct damage spammables (10% chance) and there is no Bleed enchant yet (20%). The 3 effects you tried out are single target dots (3%). You're comparing your uptime with Burning, which is coming from an enchant, so a 79% chance every 4 seconds vs your dots ticking every 2s for only 11.85% chance.

If you're not using a spammable or enchant, you can't expect to have high uptime with any status effect, let alone 1 like hemorrhaging which requires 3 stacks of it for the full potential. The 125% status effect damage it can scale to is better than Burnings 100% or Poisons 66%-132%.

I personally feel they hit a perfect balance this week. They made it way less punishing at low stacks (44% to 75%), but only lowered the ceiling a tiny bit (132% to 125%), and added a bunch of Bleed skills all within the PTS cycle. That is unheard of for that type of feedback to show results that quickly.

• All they need to do now is introduce a Bleed enchant or just update absorb health.
• Add a unique passive to Warden to solidify them as the best bleed class.

For the time being, if you want to see better results, run Vampire Spammable, Warden Spammable, DW Spammable, and/or Executioner and Rending Slashes.

Gone are the days where Barbed Trap is the very best dot in the game you need to run on every single build regardless if you have minor force or not... although, it's still technically the strongest with the +20% upfront dmg, +10% overall damage from FG passives, +3% weapon/spell damage, and 3 ult gen. Degen, Reach, and Soul Trap still can't beat it with or without the free hemo procs by a tiny bit. Poison Injection is probably stronger now. Carve might be similar, but it requires a whole lot more effort, at least it's aoe.

Billium813

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

With Carve, Barbed Trap, and Pillar of Nirn, it feels real difficult to get the Hemorrhaging stacks to 3

2H without Charged


2H with Charged (with Flame Enchant)


This is a dummy parse too. In the wild, I doubt I would get this good uptime and it's still bad. I mean, how many Bleed effects do I have to run to actually get to 3 stacks reliably? This just feels worse then Burning on average. At least Burning just does what it does and doesn't need 3 Burning Skills and a 5 piece set to get to 3 stacks 15% of the time.

I mean, 1 Flame Enchant vs 2 Bleed Skills and 1 Bleed set

I personally feel they hit a perfect balance this week. They made it way less punishing at low stacks (44% to 75%), but only lowered the ceiling a tiny bit (132% to 125%), and added a bunch of Bleed skills all within the PTS cycle. That is unheard of for that type of feedback to show results that quickly.

• All they need to do now is introduce a Bleed enchant or just update absorb health.
• Add a unique passive to Warden to solidify them as the best bleed class.

For the time being, if you want to see better results, run Vampire Spammable, Warden Spammable, DW Spammable, and/or Executioner and Rending Slashes.

Gone are the days where Barbed Trap is the very best dot in the game you need to run on every single build regardless if you have minor force or not... although, it's still technically the strongest with the +20% upfront dmg, +10% overall damage from FG passives, +3% weapon/spell damage, and 3 ult gen. Degen, Reach, and Soul Trap still can't beat it with or without the free hemo procs by a tiny bit. Poison Injection is probably stronger now. Carve might be similar, but it requires a whole lot more effort, at least it's aoe.

> They made it way less punishing at low stacks (44% to 75%), but only lowered the ceiling a tiny bit (132% to 125%), and added a bunch of Bleed skills all within the PTS cycle

I mean... so what is the real difference between stacks? Does the damage even matter at different stacks anymore? I like the stacking mechanic, but raising the floor kind of make the stacking pointless?

Also, IDK if I'd say "a bunch of Bleed skills". A 2H execute and DW Ultimate is hardly enough. I understand WW and Vamp are better, but the execute on 2H feels bad. I'd say 2H is still well lacking in Bleed.

> All they need to do now is introduce a Bleed enchant or just update absorb health.

I would definitely like to see a Bleed Enchant.

But wouldn't it make more sense to change Taderi from Physical Harm -> Bleed ("Deals X Bleed Damage" / "Adds X Bleed Resistance"). Then, change Makderi from Magical Harm -> Harm ("Adds X Weapon and Spell Damage" / "Adds X Physical and Spell Resistance")? This needs to be done for hybridization anyway, right?

MashmalloMan

Billium813 wrote: »

I would definitely like to see a Bleed Enchant

But wouldn't it make more sense to change Taderi from Physical Harm -> Bleed ("Deals X Bleed Damage" / "Adds X Bleed Resistance"). Then, change Makderi from Magical Harm -> Harm ("Adds X Weapon and Spell Damage" / "Adds X Physical and Spell Resistance")? This needs to be done for hybridization anyway, right?

I don't know the runes off by heart, but I think they wouldn't let that hold them back.

If you look at the damage enchants available, there is 1 for every element, but bleed. Then there is 3 for magic damage. Absorb Health, Absorb Magicka, and the Tri Absorb one.

Absorb Health makes the most sense out of the 3.

Originally the Absorb Stamina enchantment dealt magic damage too, we fought hard to change it for a few years after launch and it finally changed to physical damage around 2018/2019 and it never had anything to do with what runes made the enchant, just the enchant itself. The same could be said here.

Billium813

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

I would definitely like to see a Bleed Enchant

But wouldn't it make more sense to change Taderi from Physical Harm -> Bleed ("Deals X Bleed Damage" / "Adds X Bleed Resistance"). Then, change Makderi from Magical Harm -> Harm ("Adds X Weapon and Spell Damage" / "Adds X Physical and Spell Resistance")? This needs to be done for hybridization anyway, right?

I don't know the runes off by heart, but I think they wouldn't let that hold them back.

If you look at the damage enchants available, there is 1 for every element, but bleed. Then there is 3 for magic damage. Absorb Health, Absorb Magicka, and the Tri Absorb one.

Absorb Health makes the most sense out of the 3.

Originally the Absorb Stamina enchantment dealt magic damage too, we fought hard to change it for a few years after launch and it finally changed to physical damage around 2018/2019 and it never had anything to do with what runes made the enchant, just the enchant itself. The same could be said here.

Taderi (Physical Harm) / Makderi (Spell Harm) make the Jewelry Glyphs for WD/SD with the weird recovery they recently added just to maintain 2 different glyphs. They also make the Spell Resistance vs Physical Resistance glyphs that don't really much much sense being separate with hybridization anymore.

I'd rather they clean up more hybridization they're missing AND add the missing Bleed rune; win, win. I think it'd make more sense to clean these up and change one to Bleed vs removing an entire functional glyph so that it doesn't match the other 2 (Stam and Mag). The Absorb Health (Oko)/Stamina (Deni)/Magicka (Makko) already make sense as is and don't need to be removed or changed.

MashmalloMan

Billium813 wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

I would definitely like to see a Bleed Enchant

But wouldn't it make more sense to change Taderi from Physical Harm -> Bleed ("Deals X Bleed Damage" / "Adds X Bleed Resistance"). Then, change Makderi from Magical Harm -> Harm ("Adds X Weapon and Spell Damage" / "Adds X Physical and Spell Resistance")? This needs to be done for hybridization anyway, right?

I don't know the runes off by heart, but I think they wouldn't let that hold them back.

If you look at the damage enchants available, there is 1 for every element, but bleed. Then there is 3 for magic damage. Absorb Health, Absorb Magicka, and the Tri Absorb one.

Absorb Health makes the most sense out of the 3.

Originally the Absorb Stamina enchantment dealt magic damage too, we fought hard to change it for a few years after launch and it finally changed to physical damage around 2018/2019 and it never had anything to do with what runes made the enchant, just the enchant itself. The same could be said here.

Taderi (Physical Harm) / Makderi (Spell Harm) make the Jewelry Glyphs for WD/SD with the weird recovery they recently added just to maintain 2 different glyphs. They also make the Spell Resistance vs Physical Resistance glyphs that don't really much much sense being separate with hybridization anymore.

I'd rather they clean up more hybridization they're missing AND add the missing Bleed rune. I think it'd make more sense to clean these up and change one to Bleed vs removing an entire functional glyph. The Absorb Health (Oko)/Stamina (Deni)/Magicka (Makko) already make sense as is and don't need to be removed or changed.

Agree to disagree. I think it would fit perfectly and we're getting way too much into the weeds of it. Deni dealt magic damage before, but restored stamina. It's literally the same situation now with bleed damage and Oko.

One things for sure, everyone would like them to finish hybridization. They only talked about food/pots with with press. What about mundus stones and enchants?

Billium813

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

I would definitely like to see a Bleed Enchant

But wouldn't it make more sense to change Taderi from Physical Harm -> Bleed ("Deals X Bleed Damage" / "Adds X Bleed Resistance"). Then, change Makderi from Magical Harm -> Harm ("Adds X Weapon and Spell Damage" / "Adds X Physical and Spell Resistance")? This needs to be done for hybridization anyway, right?

I don't know the runes off by heart, but I think they wouldn't let that hold them back.

If you look at the damage enchants available, there is 1 for every element, but bleed. Then there is 3 for magic damage. Absorb Health, Absorb Magicka, and the Tri Absorb one.

Absorb Health makes the most sense out of the 3.

Originally the Absorb Stamina enchantment dealt magic damage too, we fought hard to change it for a few years after launch and it finally changed to physical damage around 2018/2019 and it never had anything to do with what runes made the enchant, just the enchant itself. The same could be said here.

Taderi (Physical Harm) / Makderi (Spell Harm) make the Jewelry Glyphs for WD/SD with the weird recovery they recently added just to maintain 2 different glyphs. They also make the Spell Resistance vs Physical Resistance glyphs that don't really much much sense being separate with hybridization anymore.

I'd rather they clean up more hybridization they're missing AND add the missing Bleed rune. I think it'd make more sense to clean these up and change one to Bleed vs removing an entire functional glyph. The Absorb Health (Oko)/Stamina (Deni)/Magicka (Makko) already make sense as is and don't need to be removed or changed.

Agree to disagree. I think it would fit perfectly and we're getting way too much into the weeds of it. Deni dealt magic damage before, but restored stamina. It's literally the same situation now with bleed damage and Oko.

One things for sure, everyone would like them to finish hybridization. They only talked about food/pots with with press. What about mundus stones and enchants?

I'm just saying, you're looking at Itade, but what would Repora do with Bleed? It already makes the Max Health glyph, so you can't change it. You can't reuse Oko because for balance there needs to be a "Adds X Bleed Resistance" Glyph like Poison, Disease, Frost, Flame, Shock.

Makderi and Taderi need to be combined to Deri (Harm). Then that frees up a slot for "Bleed" (whatever that translates to). Update Absorb Health glyph to deal Oblivion Damage so there is balance between Absorb Magicka (Magic Damage) and Absorb Stamina (Physical Damage)