STOP spell Radiant (templar)

Bluestin

I thought the Nightblade stuff was just memes, I'm legitimately surprised at the gross imbalance though. Merciless is impressively over-tuned, along with some of the Nightblade's ability suite/passives. Dragon Knight as well though slightly less so.

I wouldn't mind seeing Radiant get reduced slightly, along with that damage being moved onto other Templar abilities like Backlash/Puncturing Strikes/Burning Light and maybe Solar Barrage. Templar's "non-execute" damaging abilities are really lacking.

Baconlad

Only Nightblades are allowed to be glass canons in ESO

Cast_El

What next?
Nerf blastbone on Necro and buff NB and DK? 🤣
This is the only good offensive ability for templar.
Nb have the most hard hitting ability. Please, play every classes and learn pvp before saying anything like this .
I play every class and NB is easy mode

Sockermannen

No offense but this reads like someone who spent 3 hrs in pvp and got killed a few times by an ability that they did not know how to counterplay and is now crying for nerfs. No real arguments are given other than ”it’s abused” and ”it’s not on an assassin”. Nightblades have plenty of damage already, they absolutely do not need any more.

Also PvP in ESO is mainly in a team based cooperative form, are we really gonna complain about kill stealing?

BXR_Lonestar

Akisohida wrote: »

Bruh, this reads like a rage post, OP.

1. Using an ability in the game to be used is not 'cheating'.
2. You have given 0 facts to back up ANY of your claims. No objective facts. Just 'This is OP because I said so, fix it.'
3. What does other classes damage potential have to do with Templar's damage potential? You're arbitrarily deciding 'Nothing should be stronger than Assassin. Anything that is, is broken.' and deciding the devs should 'fix' what you subjectively see as a flaw.

This. The butt-hurt is strong in this one....

SandandStars

Templar’s RO is a very powerful execute in pvp. If Temps had any other viable offensive skills to speak of, I might agree that RO is a little overtuned. BUT, the class is in a crappy place, overall, and RO is the only way it can get kills.

It’s just a horribly boring, undynamic playing style right now. Either sit in your bubble healing or spam RO. Yuck.

OBJnoob

SandandStars wrote: »

Templar’s RO is a very powerful execute in pvp. If Temps had any other viable offensive skills to speak of, I might agree that RO is a little overtuned. BUT, the class is in a crappy place, overall, and RO is the only way it can get kills.

It’s just a horribly boring, undynamic playing style right now. Either sit in your bubble healing or spam RO. Yuck.

The power of RO is kinda why Templar can't have nice things though. You sorta said as much yourself. If Templar had any offense to back it up they'd instantly be NB status, in my opinion. RO is kinda like AW in that way.

All the templars running RO in BGs go 10-0 and complain about how boring it is. All the templars not running RO go 0-10 and complain Templar sucks.

I understand the lack of trust in the devs to adequately compensate Templar if RO were to be nerfed... But just between us, it probably should be.

boi_anachronism_

OBJnoob wrote: »

SandandStars wrote: »

Templar’s RO is a very powerful execute in pvp. If Temps had any other viable offensive skills to speak of, I might agree that RO is a little overtuned. BUT, the class is in a crappy place, overall, and RO is the only way it can get kills.

It’s just a horribly boring, undynamic playing style right now. Either sit in your bubble healing or spam RO. Yuck.

The power of RO is kinda why Templar can't have nice things though. You sorta said as much yourself. If Templar had any offense to back it up they'd instantly be NB status, in my opinion. RO is kinda like AW in that way.

All the templars running RO in BGs go 10-0 and complain about how boring it is. All the templars not running RO go 0-10 and complain Templar sucks.

I understand the lack of trust in the devs to adequately compensate Templar if RO were to be nerfed... But just between us, it probably should be.

And then what? You gotta have some kind of plan for how to balance it. Have you looked at a templar parse without RG? It would be so far in the bin it would literally be buried 6ft under it. I can still hit 105k on a blade parse without ANY execute at all. Templar? Maybe 90k. Maybe.

OBJnoob

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

SandandStars wrote: »

Templar’s RO is a very powerful execute in pvp. If Temps had any other viable offensive skills to speak of, I might agree that RO is a little overtuned. BUT, the class is in a crappy place, overall, and RO is the only way it can get kills.

It’s just a horribly boring, undynamic playing style right now. Either sit in your bubble healing or spam RO. Yuck.

The power of RO is kinda why Templar can't have nice things though. You sorta said as much yourself. If Templar had any offense to back it up they'd instantly be NB status, in my opinion. RO is kinda like AW in that way.

All the templars running RO in BGs go 10-0 and complain about how boring it is. All the templars not running RO go 0-10 and complain Templar sucks.

I understand the lack of trust in the devs to adequately compensate Templar if RO were to be nerfed... But just between us, it probably should be.

And then what? You gotta have some kind of plan for how to balance it. Have you looked at a templar parse without RG? It would be so far in the bin it would literally be buried 6ft under it. I can still hit 105k on a blade parse without ANY execute at all. Templar? Maybe 90k. Maybe.

The only thing that sounds worse to me than ROing in PvP (where you spend most of your time running around healing and buffing anyway until it's time to kill someone,) is ROing over and over again on a boss.

I don't play templar so I really wouldn't be the one to tell you how it's power should be redistributed exactly. But most people say the 6-second delayed burst (backlash is it?) Is broken or weak. You could start by strengthening that. Plenty of people want jabs returned to glory. You could remove major defile from dark flare and make it instant cast. There are plenty of options, I'm sure.

boi_anachronism_

OBJnoob wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

SandandStars wrote: »

Templar’s RO is a very powerful execute in pvp. If Temps had any other viable offensive skills to speak of, I might agree that RO is a little overtuned. BUT, the class is in a crappy place, overall, and RO is the only way it can get kills.

It’s just a horribly boring, undynamic playing style right now. Either sit in your bubble healing or spam RO. Yuck.

The power of RO is kinda why Templar can't have nice things though. You sorta said as much yourself. If Templar had any offense to back it up they'd instantly be NB status, in my opinion. RO is kinda like AW in that way.

All the templars running RO in BGs go 10-0 and complain about how boring it is. All the templars not running RO go 0-10 and complain Templar sucks.

I understand the lack of trust in the devs to adequately compensate Templar if RO were to be nerfed... But just between us, it probably should be.

And then what? You gotta have some kind of plan for how to balance it. Have you looked at a templar parse without RG? It would be so far in the bin it would literally be buried 6ft under it. I can still hit 105k on a blade parse without ANY execute at all. Templar? Maybe 90k. Maybe.

The only thing that sounds worse to me than ROing in PvP (where you spend most of your time running around healing and buffing anyway until it's time to kill someone,) is ROing over and over again on a boss.

I don't play templar so I really wouldn't be the one to tell you how it's power should be redistributed exactly. But most people say the 6-second delayed burst (backlash is it?) Is broken or weak. You could start by strengthening that. Plenty of people want jabs returned to glory. You could remove major defile from dark flare and make it instant cast. There are plenty of options, I'm sure.

Welp I do play a templar in both pvp (more often sorc) and pve and when nerfing skills like this they tend to do an abysmal job balancing them out. It is also one of its signature skills that makes it more unique being the only channelled execute. Not only that but its a flat wrong assumption that you just cast RG over and over in execute, it still has a very important rotation of skills that are required to keep active during this period, one of which is a very short duration and must be activated constantly. You literally just swap jabs for RG as a spammable. Nb is exactly the same in execute, you dont just drop all your dots, you merely swap concealed for impale/ assassin's blade which btw AB has a similar mechanism to RG, except it is an instant cast but it scales from 400% with the target under 50%. It is not interruptable like temps. Sorc also uses an execute as a spammable swapping from frags. Temp uses dawnbreaker which is a relatively cheap ulti which has to be worked properly into rotation as well. I actually find it to be one of the more fun classes to play in execute ans the way it la weaves is pretty intuitive as well. It also has a very viable bow set up so there are other good build options if you want to play something beyond a typical full melee buid. If anything the most boring rotation is necro, by a mile. 2 skills blast bones, 2 skills blast bones...

If im being honest i strongly believe you should have a good base knowledge of a class before calling for major nerf of this nature. I have played basically everything in both pvp and pve so i think im coming from a solid first person knowledge base of how it functions in comparison to basically everything else.

Alharion

At times, I find certain finishers just as powerful as an ultimate or even more powerful...

OBJnoob

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

If im being honest i strongly believe you should have a good base knowledge of a class before calling for major nerf of this nature. I have played basically everything in both pvp and pve so i think im coming from a solid first person knowledge base of how it functions in comparison to basically everything else.

I agree. But I'm not calling for a nerf. I was responding to someone else's comment with my own opinion. As I said-- if the skill were to be nerfed Templar would need help elsewhere. And I said I probably wouldn't be the best person to suggest how.

I have a good enough knowledge of the game in general to express non-specific opinions of this nature. I have 6 years or so in this game, almost exclusively PvP oriented, and fighting AGAINST templars is as valid a viewpoint as fighting AS a Templar.

Or should only templars balance templar? And only NBs balance NB? And DKs balance DK? Somehow I doubt that'd be an improvement.

boi_anachronism_

OBJnoob wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

If im being honest i strongly believe you should have a good base knowledge of a class before calling for major nerf of this nature. I have played basically everything in both pvp and pve so i think im coming from a solid first person knowledge base of how it functions in comparison to basically everything else.

I agree. But I'm not calling for a nerf. I was responding to someone else's comment with my own opinion. As I said-- if the skill were to be nerfed Templar would need help elsewhere. And I said I probably wouldn't be the best person to suggest how.

I have a good enough knowledge of the game in general to express non-specific opinions of this nature. I have 6 years or so in this game, almost exclusively PvP oriented, and fighting AGAINST templars is as valid a viewpoint as fighting AS a Templar.

Or should only templars balance templar? And only NBs balance NB? And DKs balance DK? Somehow I doubt that'd be an improvement.

I believe you should have a played knowledge of the class, yes.. This realistically should be both pvp and pve to make a solid judgment. You Should absolutely have experience fighting them and that is very valid but also playing them, without that it becomes very one sided. Saying you are almost exclusively pvp oriented is a major issue here because pvp only players and pve only players do not have a good grasp of how one effects the other. This is one of the biggest problems with balancing for classes since they are not balanced separately. I do both, frequently and have done so on many builds and all classes, dk is my least used however i have still played it. I rarely make commentary on it with the exception of things i have experienced from both sides to be obviously problematic. I main a blade and have frequently called for adjustments to the class but im very specific about which skills and how because i know the state of them in all content and in pve 12man for example they are basically hot garbage and in pvp over tuned to the point that i stopped playing it in pvp at all because it provides little challenge.

So yes i think nbs should help balance blades and so on...if they also have significant experience fighting them from the standpoint of other classes. It changes your perspective significantly.

OBJnoob

-shrug- Okay. Like I said, three times now, I probably wouldn't be the person to fix Templar. Nevertheless it needs fixing.

Is it an uncommon opinion that Templar is weak? No.

Is it an uncommon opinion that their execute is strong? No.

You're acting like I need a degree in math to tell you what 2+2 equals.

I respect what you're telling me. I'm just not going to stop expressing my opinions. I will however pay you, and others with experience like yours, much respect when you have your own ideas about Templar.

That is after all where all the off-hand suggestions I made came from. Templars in other threads making requests.

Firstmep

I'd love it if they shifted some of the power from radiant into some other templar skills.

Joy_Division

OBJnoob wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

SandandStars wrote: »

Templar’s RO is a very powerful execute in pvp. If Temps had any other viable offensive skills to speak of, I might agree that RO is a little overtuned. BUT, the class is in a crappy place, overall, and RO is the only way it can get kills.

It’s just a horribly boring, undynamic playing style right now. Either sit in your bubble healing or spam RO. Yuck.

The power of RO is kinda why Templar can't have nice things though. You sorta said as much yourself. If Templar had any offense to back it up they'd instantly be NB status, in my opinion. RO is kinda like AW in that way.

All the templars running RO in BGs go 10-0 and complain about how boring it is. All the templars not running RO go 0-10 and complain Templar sucks.

I understand the lack of trust in the devs to adequately compensate Templar if RO were to be nerfed... But just between us, it probably should be.

And then what? You gotta have some kind of plan for how to balance it. Have you looked at a templar parse without RG? It would be so far in the bin it would literally be buried 6ft under it. I can still hit 105k on a blade parse without ANY execute at all. Templar? Maybe 90k. Maybe.

The only thing that sounds worse to me than ROing in PvP (where you spend most of your time running around healing and buffing anyway until it's time to kill someone,) is ROing over and over again on a boss.

I don't play templar so I really wouldn't be the one to tell you how it's power should be redistributed exactly. But most people say the 6-second delayed burst (backlash is it?) Is broken or weak. You could start by strengthening that. Plenty of people want jabs returned to glory. You could remove major defile from dark flare and make it instant cast. There are plenty of options, I'm sure.

As a Templar main since 2014, I can assure you I get some since of satisfaction Jesus Beaming people in PvP. Especially the 19K health rolly pollies with paper thin resistances who think just by virtue of pressing the dodge button they deserve immunity to all incoming damage, and those 50K Warden tanks who think just because they are down to "only" 15K health, they still have a large health threshold for survival. It is also satisfying because all of the Templar's other offensive skills are meh, so basically I'm spending the vast majority of the fight plucking away at boring, mediocre, and uninspiring skills until after a long slog I can *finally* press a button that actually accomplishes something. I will also say that it is indeed fun to Jesus Beam a Trial boss that has been wiping my progression group for the past hour. Not only is it fun, but there is a particular satisfaction that even when said boss pulls some BS teleport mechanic, it still gets melted. The Jesus Beam's mechanics do make for interesting decisions when half your group is dead but the boss is at low health. For years, templars have only been welcome as DPS for the stupid rez speed passive, but in this situation my class has the best opportunity to just melt the boss before the rest of the group wipes. Yeah, no. There are many things worse than ROing an enemy.

I'm not even sure how this became a topic. Templar is, as usual, spectacularly unspectacular in PvP, and despite this mediocrity, we once again have to deal with PvPers complaining that somehow, someway, they died to such an unspectacular class. I kind of get it. When I get killed by a solitary templar player, I begin to question whether or not the game is actually functioning correctly and if I have been away for so long that I am now one of those mediocrities at PvP. But the idea that somehow it is "wrong" for a Templar to be able to do this because it's not the "assassin" class or some other stereotypes is genuinely amusing. When looking at those tooltips for Healthly Offering and Dark Cloak, one might be forgiven to have guessed that was the "healer" class in ESO. but apparently some classes are allowed to step on the toes of numerous stereotypes (that would be the main of forum complainers) whereas other classes are not (that would be the other classes).

No, let's not start by "buffing" the Templars' other skills because I can assure you after almost a decade of ZOS "buffing" once decent and interesting skills such as Blazing Shield, Eclipse, Backlash, Repentance, etc., and turning them into uninspiring second rate abilities, the sentence I do not want to see on PTS patch notes is "we have decided to buff some Templar abilities to bring them in line with other classes." Move on Zos, there is nothing to see in the Templar toolkit.

OBJnoob

@Joy_Division

I mean that's fine then; leave Templar right where it is. I don't actually disagree with that. I didn't know that the RO gameplay was so rewarding, particularly in PvE, and I had heard from other people almost exclusively that it felt like a one trick pony.

As you describe the mediocrity of Templar skills though... And as you recall the former glory of others... It still seems to me like you kinda see what I'm saying.

And it seems like the main disagreement is that you'd rather ZOS just not touch anything. And that is also what I was saying, if you read my original post, before all the crud.

IZZEFlameLash

It is really fairly uncommon to see RO in death recaps these days. Because no one really plays Templar outside of burst group healer or some players around a zergball who wants to get their kills. Far more common in recaps are meta proc sets and siege. And of course, bomb set procs. So, why is RO problem again?

TechMaybeHic

Played Templar for a long time and now I play NB. I of course get beemed often in fights to finish me off, but I still have yet to have it really when just fighting a Templar and not a situation where I'm already pressured by others.

I know the feeling of " damned Templar been! I only didn't get away and recover because of that!" But a lot of that is the ridiculous expectations of being able to recover full health and reset the fight, whether from cloak, streaks, block cast, heals, and any combination of things.

Really by my logic; it's as inconsequential either way as I do not value it outside of group pressure. I just found it funny that on my NB; I can forgo an execute all together often times and just use my merciless and it hit harder and heal. It's dodgable; but you really start getting a sense of when someone is going to panic roll expecting it in Cyrodiil and you can work with that.

boi_anachronism_

Firstmep wrote: »

I'd love it if they shifted some of the power from radiant into some other templar skills.

I mean of course id love to see the class have more damage utility but if some other skills were buffed again id be concerned that it would shortly end up nerfed again in different ways that might effect the unique style of the class. Templar has a lot of stun and knockbacks. Its a way for them to actually get additional hits in to bring opponents into execute where they otherwise wouldnt be able to since their other damage skills are lackluster at best. I remember prior to many of these nerfs a lot of folks complaining that temps were way to powerful because since their basic damage skills were better and jabs was better they could knock you down and combo you to death too quickly even with radient being less powerful. Id rather things like javlin not be touched for example. I mean im not psychic, this part is largely conjecture but im always concerned about combat "balancing" since they tend to over nerf or over buff creating an endless seesaw effect. Anyway as i said this part is just theoretical. Definitely dont take it as a concrete statement of fact or anything.

boi_anachronism_

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

It is really fairly uncommon to see RO in death recaps these days. Because no one really plays Templar outside of burst group healer or some players around a zergball who wants to get their kills. Far more common in recaps are meta proc sets and siege. And of course, bomb set procs. So, why is RO problem again?

I mean i think the skill is largely balanced by how vulnerable you are during cast. It can be interrupted, targets can easily avoid it by making use of terrain, you can have so many debuffs hit you in the channel time that you need to purge 2x to remove them all, especially fighting multiple enemies. while it has range gap closers are so common that it barely matters especially since a large chunk of pvp happens in melee range with 2h and dw builds being so popular. I play sorc a fair bit in pvp. Ive rarely died to ro because i can streak right through them. In 1v1 it can be really good. 1vX makes it quite difficult.

Billium813

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

It is really fairly uncommon to see RO in death recaps these days. Because no one really plays Templar outside of burst group healer or some players around a zergball who wants to get their kills. Far more common in recaps are meta proc sets and siege. And of course, bomb set procs. So, why is RO problem again?

I mean i think the skill is largely balanced by how vulnerable you are during cast. It can be interrupted, targets can easily avoid it by making use of terrain, you can have so many debuffs hit you in the channel time that you need to purge 2x to remove them all, especially fighting multiple enemies. while it has range gap closers are so common that it barely matters especially since a large chunk of pvp happens in melee range with 2h and dw builds being so popular. I play sorc a fair bit in pvp. Ive rarely died to ro because i can streak right through them. In 1v1 it can be really good. 1vX makes it quite difficult.

Totally agree with all the points here.

It's really one of those "win more" Skills in PvP (I mean, it IS an execute after all...). It hits like wet tissue paper unless the opponent is under 50% and is actively BAD to use when the opponent is healthy! It isn't even really that high in damage unless the opponent is under 20%. But when an opponent is that low, that's the time they start running into cover (breaking line of sight), or throwing up defensive shields/HoTs, or stunning you back! There's just too much counter play and the damage isn't even that high.

It can be very good when in a group and you're actively winning. It's really strong to help pick off weak opponents as they try to run thanks to the long range. I honestly think that's its strongest feature! 28m is massive for an execute! But there's just so much downside to it... It's not as OP as the OP seems to think

OBJnoob

I agree there's plenty of counterplay to it. But I am going to try to make a counterpoint just because this has become a rather fun topic.

For those of us that don't make sure there's two trees and a rock nearby every time we fight, the counterplay is honestly block-healing and that's about it. Which is perhaps too strong a counter to too many things.

I am (mildly,) concerned that RO is kinda the perfect counter to everything else. It chews through shields because block doesn't work anyway with shields and sorcs don't have a burst heal. It chews through roll dodgers, prevents invisibility (I believe?), And God help you if you're wearing Gaze of Sithis.

So while I'm not suggesting this is a problem with the skill itself it does seem kinda too bad that all those playstyles get hard-countered while the playstyle that really needs nerfing/countering remains the best option.

SandandStars

Big Picture: zos has always struggled to create a reasonable semblance of class balance in pvp for many reasons.

RO being one overtuned skill to balance out Templar’s otherwise weak offensive toolkit is the direct result of poor class balancing.

The same can be said for Arcanist’s overtuned shields, and Warden’s overtuned polar wind. But in all of these examples, one overtuned skill is (crappily) balanced out by a bunch of weak skills.

Not so with NB and DK.

Sigh.

Does anyone feel that class and skill balance will improve for pvp, given the trajectory of the past few years?

TechMaybeHic

SandandStars wrote: »

Big Picture: zos has always struggled to create a reasonable semblance of class balance in pvp for many reasons.

RO being one overtuned skill to balance out Templar’s otherwise weak offensive toolkit is the direct result of poor class balancing.

The same can be said for Arcanist’s overtuned shields, and Warden’s overtuned polar wind. But in all of these examples, one overtuned skill is (crappily) balanced out by a bunch of weak skills.

Not so with NB and DK.

Sigh.

Does anyone feel that class and skill balance will improve for pvp, given the trajectory of the past few years?

If one things changed, it will just be a new thing. Question is really how long should things stay before becoming stale. Right now; it feels like we are on 2 years at a time

Alharion

Except that a good game doesn't make an effective finisher, already from 50% lol it should be less, should be around 35%, because 50% isn't really a finisher...

That should make sense!!!

Alharion

A finisher is supposed to "execute" when you don't have much life left, not even half your life yet.

Nord_Raseri

Alharion wrote: »

Except that a good game doesn't make an effective finisher, already from 50% lol it should be less, should be around 35%, because 50% isn't really a finisher...

That should make sense!!!

Alharion wrote: »

A finisher is supposed to "execute" when you don't have much life left, not even half your life yet.

Killer's Blade(nightblade): execute starts at 50% health. Whirling Blades(dual wield): execute starts at 50% health. Reverse Slash(two-handed): execute starts at 50% health. Poison Injection(bow): execute starts at 50% health. Executioner's Blade(arena weapon): Execute starts at 50% health. Only impale(nightblade magic morph) and Mages Fury(Sorcerer) start at less than 50%.

boi_anachronism_

Billium813 wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

It is really fairly uncommon to see RO in death recaps these days. Because no one really plays Templar outside of burst group healer or some players around a zergball who wants to get their kills. Far more common in recaps are meta proc sets and siege. And of course, bomb set procs. So, why is RO problem again?

I mean i think the skill is largely balanced by how vulnerable you are during cast. It can be interrupted, targets can easily avoid it by making use of terrain, you can have so many debuffs hit you in the channel time that you need to purge 2x to remove them all, especially fighting multiple enemies. while it has range gap closers are so common that it barely matters especially since a large chunk of pvp happens in melee range with 2h and dw builds being so popular. I play sorc a fair bit in pvp. Ive rarely died to ro because i can streak right through them. In 1v1 it can be really good. 1vX makes it quite difficult.

Totally agree with all the points here.

It's really one of those "win more" Skills in PvP (I mean, it IS an execute after all...). It hits like wet tissue paper unless the opponent is under 50% and is actively BAD to use when the opponent is healthy! It isn't even really that high in damage unless the opponent is under 20%. But when an opponent is that low, that's the time they start running into cover (breaking line of sight), or throwing up defensive shields/HoTs, or stunning you back! There's just too much counter play and the damage isn't even that high.

It can be very good when in a group and you're actively winning. It's really strong to help pick off weak opponents as they try to run thanks to the long range. I honestly think that's its strongest feature! 28m is massive for an execute! But there's just so much downside to it... It's not as OP as the OP seems to think

good points although im fairly sure the range is 22m not 28m but thats just if we are being nit picky, the point is that the range is there. Really heal and shield is only your best option when out in the open, otherwise gap closers and stuns are way more effective and can be pretty deadly. Ive been whomped in bg simply because i hit someone with ro and their team showed up, stampeded, bashed and then hit me with every debuff in creation. The guy was at full health in a second, saw it as i died lol.

SandandStars wrote: »

Big Picture: zos has always struggled to create a reasonable semblance of class balance in pvp for many reasons.

RO being one overtuned skill to balance out Templar’s otherwise weak offensive toolkit is the direct result of poor class balancing.

The same can be said for Arcanist’s overtuned shields, and Warden’s overtuned polar wind. But in all of these examples, one overtuned skill is (crappily) balanced out by a bunch of weak skills.

Not so with NB and DK.

Sigh.

Does anyone feel that class and skill balance will improve for pvp, given the trajectory of the past few years?

With arcs the shields basically exist because of tanks. Without it they are not viable since they really have zero burst heals. I get what they are trying to do.. attempting to make classes unique by making them very power in some areas but really disadvantaged in others. Examples being wardens that are absolute buff/healing machines for both themselves and the team but dps wise they are just not there, you can say polar wind is overtuned but its not by any means the only thing op about the class. You are therefor definitely right about classes being overtuned in specific areas. I tend to think it was the overall intention but frankly its no secret the zos's main concern is balancing for pve so yeah it tracks but it definitely creates wild imbalances in one or the other area of the game. That said templar is an interesting case as it is not that they are overtuned in a single area but arguably a single skill. Arc shields in general are great, warden heals are fantastic throughout the skill line. In the case of templars it doesnt apply the same way. On almost any other class you could argue its completely broken but they are lacking so significantly in so many other areas that in the context of the class it becomes a big grey area arguing for a nerf.

When it comes to dks they are exceptional in both pvp and pve in just about every regard so when there is an overtuned skill its pretty obvious when a nerf is required even if its not major. Nb is actually a pretty interesting case. Because of the play style it is built around, an assassin style burst class, it is really hard to make it good for pve with out it being broken in pvp while retaining some semblance of the class style. You can't buff stealth because its useless in pve and again broken in pvp. You nerf damage aka burst which is basically its entire dps it basically becomes garbage in pve to make it exist at a realistic power level in pvp. Thats basically where it is right now, useless in 12man but broken in pvp. That said there are some changes that they made that were just wildly unnecessary and really only impacted pvp. Examples being concealed giving its buff coming out of stealth. Auto crit out of stealth, a lack of ramping cost or cooldown to its cloak.

I mean as someone who does both pvp and pve.. yeah im utterly disappointed by the inability to get decent balance or atleast make certain skills effected by battle spirit to balance them out. This skills damage is lowered by x % while battle spirit is active.. something.

To your last point- what i truly want for pvp is for all classes to be viable while still retaining meaningful counterplay but in all honesty.. no. Im not holding out hope...

Edit: the range is actually 28m. Im a potato 🥔 lol

boi_anachronism_

One of the other things i thought about for blades is passives. Assault and support skill line have the condition "while in a pvp zone". so why not apply that to some of its class passives? Like while in a pvp zone this passives value is is reduced to x. Example: pressure point: in a pvp zone this value is halfed or shadow barrier, in a pvp zone its changed to minor resolve. I mean its already something thats coded, right? Just spit balling here but i think conditional passives might be an interesting way to help balance some classes in general not just skills directly. Curious about folks opinions on this idea.