Can we get adjustments to "Dead Sets"

FoJul · October 2023

I must've confused people on my last thread about some of the set's in the game that aren't as effective as others in the game. So to clear up some confusion on what I mean, I have made a new thread.

I think the game would be a better place if some of the sets that are deemed as "dead" or "Non-effective" be adjusted into a manner of actually being usable.

For Example:
My favorite set to ever hit ESO, was Valkyn Skoria. In recent test, on the pts, I have noticed how hard it is to make Valkyn Skoria effective. Yes it technically still procs, but simply its underwhelming.

In my test, I had the opponent only burst heal. Nothing else involved until the 2 minute mark where I told him he was free to end the duel.

In this test I used 6 seperate DoT skills.

In this test I used 2 seperate DoT skills.

In this test i only used 1 DoT skill.

There is other sets that are similar, that are "dead", that I would love to see either reworked or buffed.

FantasticFreddie · October 2023

I always wanted Light Speaker to be good, and I really wanted Maligalig's maelstrom to be a good healer set.

Lots of sets that could use some love.

FoJul · October 2023

FoJul wrote: »

I must've confused people on my last thread about some of the set's in the game that aren't as effective as others in the game. So to clear up some confusion on what I mean, I have made a new thread.

I think the game would be a better place if some of the sets that are deemed as "dead" or "Non-effective" be adjusted into a manner of actually being usable.

For Example:
My favorite set to ever hit ESO, was Valkyn Skoria. In recent test, on the pts, I have noticed how hard it is to make Valkyn Skoria effective. Yes it technically still procs, but simply its underwhelming.

In my test, I had the opponent only burst heal. Nothing else involved until the 2 minute mark where I told him he was free to end the duel.

In this test I used 6 seperate DoT skills.

In this test I used 2 seperate DoT skills.

In this test i only used 1 DoT skill.

There is other sets that are similar, that are "dead", that I would love to see either reworked or buffed.

Continuation, cause I can't edit the OP. I think personally, I could be wrong, so don't quote me, but almost all the base game sets would be a first good target for reworking or adjusting.

With Hybridization and all the changes since Update 33, most of the old sets are deemed "Outdated". Which means new sets have came in, and made it more useful and effective to use the new sets over the base game/older sets.

When it comes to both pve and pvp. The way that some gear is 100% better than other gear, means that everyone is using the same setup. If they use a different build, it won't be comparable. This is in both PvP and PvE.

Billium813 · October 2023

There were some good polls last year voting on the worst sets:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/616785/the-most-underpowered-set-wall-of-fame-pc-na-as-voted-on-by-the-community

Amottica · October 2023

With as many sets are in the game it would be impossible to make them all viable. There will always be top performers. It is a futile effort to rebalance all or most sets.

Even then, many sets one person thinks is trash are treasures to another player. We all have different interests.

Turtle_Bot · October 2023

Completely agree with this, we used to have so much diversity with different sets that used to be viable but even though they were average at best they still got nerfed hard (Overwhelming Surge/Mad Tinkerer are a couple that spring to mind here) or were made redundant on release due to impractical proc conditions/far too low proc chances/worthless secondary effects that hog too much power budget compared to the other sets (Storm-Cursed/Maligalig/Malygda springs to mind here).

The other thing holding back the diversity of sets is the huge imbalance between light and medium armor weights.

Medium has no downsides to using it (offensive or defensive) while light armor just makes you far too squishy to run it unless it has significant defensive bonuses in the set itself (see rallying cry/aetherial ascension/swift/trial by fire) or provides a crazy support effect (cryptcannons) while the offensive bonuses light armor provides alongside the defensive downsides just don't compare to the combined offensive and defensive bonuses provided by medium armor unless it is on a broken set like the original dark convergence.

OtarTheMad · October 2023

I like the idea of reworking some sets that aren’t good. At the same time though there are some sets that are pretty good but no one looks at them like Vampire’s Kiss… that set got reworked a while back but is actually alright. I’ve used it for leveling and in PvP for additional healing.

MashmalloMan · October 2023

The issue with a lot of sets is they start out sounding great on paper, but ultimately fail.

Let's use Valkyn(8% dot proc chance) and Storm Cursed Revenge(15% shock proc chance) as examples.

Both sets live and die by the proc chance, which is greatly determined based on the state of the game's accessibility and ease of use for these 2 factors.

Rewind a few years back, dots would tick once every second or once every half second. This has effectively been cut in half because barely anything ticks at half seconds and all sticky dots are 2s. FFS they even ruined my baby, Hurricane, making it tick on 2s as well. It's Sorc's bread and butter for proccing Crit Surge, their only real dot skill (Lightning Flood is terrible). Something like Valkyn that was strong before becomes weaker when you have a bunch of dots that tick infrequently in comparison to before.

This goes for Storm Cursed Revenge as well. It has the potential on paper to be extremely strong with no CD, but it's essentially dead (even for Sorc's)because there is not enough competitive shock skills to make it work and the ones that are available had their tick frequency reduced.

I'm not saying I want them to remove the % based procs, I actually love their concepts because it reinforces playing a specific way to optimize for the set... what I am saying is buff crappy skills and give us better proc chances to account for your awful idea to reduce tick frequency.

AstroST · October 2023

Best solutiont to dead sets would be for me:
- take the 80% less used set and just straight delete them from the game.

ESO is bloated with sets and this is one of the many reason balance in this game is just so bad.

CameraBeardThePirate · October 2023

Look at the amount of balance changes done in this week's PTS - 0.

That's how many changes to dead sets you can expect in the future.

Necrotech_Master · October 2023

ive never had problems with skoria, it works great on my dot-focused runeblazer dk build lol

i do agree that there are sets that need some help (the most recently brought up was the "wise mage" set because its basically a functionally/objectively worse version of infallible aether, there is absolutely no reason ever to run this set because infallible has the exact same bonuses + a few additional ones (minor slayer and the bonus HA dmg))

Bushido2513 · October 2023

In every long running series you're always going to have filler episodes and these sets are it for ESO. At this point there's only so many ways to cook the same meal.

They could certainly take some sets away but I think due to limitations of the tech, dev time, etc that is going to be hard to redo old sets in a way that would make them any more viable or interesting than the current front runners.

Twohothardware · October 2023

They're getting ready to add several more NEW dead sets with the class sets in Endless Archive if they don't do some improvements in the last week of pts.

OBJnoob · October 2023

I think it's important to the MMORPG experience that some sets are better than others. There's supposed to be a progression of gearing that you can aspire for while leveling up, going from base game dungeons to vet dlc, arenas, trials etc. It really wouldn't be right for something like hundings rage to be on par with pillar of nirn, would it?

90% of the fun of these games is theorycrafting. Some sets being better than others is necessary to the theorycrafting process. When all sets are equal what is there to theorize about? How can there be a good if there is not a bad?

What honestly ruins it for us and leaves us feeling like we have a lack of options (when actually we don't,) are things like these forums and the PTS. Where before a set even goes live people have discovered it sucks or it is OP, spread that information through the internet, and robbed everybody else of the opportunity to see for themselves. And even though I say "robbed" I don't mean to imply it's anyone's fault-- simply that we're victims of our own technological success. Knowing what sets are good or not, by having used them, is supposed to be part of the skill gap. It is unfortunately not.

But so you have a couple hundred players that've played the game for 5...6...10 years (as most of us here have,) and you have all this knowledge at your disposal. Plus the wealth of experiences you've already had. And you are left feeling like there's not enough classes... Not enough gear sets... Nothing new to do.

This isn't the games fault. This is what happens when you've played a game to death. This is what happens when you're competitive and only want to use what's best... And have everybody telling you what's best.

FoJul · October 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

I think it's important to the MMORPG experience that some sets are better than others. There's supposed to be a progression of gearing that you can aspire for while leveling up, going from base game dungeons to vet dlc, arenas, trials etc. It really wouldn't be right for something like hundings rage to be on par with pillar of nirn, would it?

90% of the fun of these games is theorycrafting. Some sets being better than others is necessary to the theorycrafting process. When all sets are equal what is there to theorize about? How can there be a good if there is not a bad?

What honestly ruins it for us and leaves us feeling like we have a lack of options (when actually we don't,) are things like these forums and the PTS. Where before a set even goes live people have discovered it sucks or it is OP, spread that information through the internet, and robbed everybody else of the opportunity to see for themselves. And even though I say "robbed" I don't mean to imply it's anyone's fault-- simply that we're victims of our own technological success. Knowing what sets are good or not, by having used them, is supposed to be part of the skill gap. It is unfortunately not.

But so you have a couple hundred players that've played the game for 5...6...10 years (as most of us here have,) and you have all this knowledge at your disposal. Plus the wealth of experiences you've already had. And you are left feeling like there's not enough classes... Not enough gear sets... Nothing new to do.

This isn't the games fault. This is what happens when you've played a game to death. This is what happens when you're competitive and only want to use what's best... And have everybody telling you what's best.

I somewhat agree, but also disagree. I know this is ESO and is its own game. But when you compare it to other games, gear plays a HUGE part in separating the skill gap.

What I mean, is if any build right now on live isn’t running Relequen/pillar/ or whorl you’re just going to be so far behind. This isn’t fair.

From a pvp perspective, if you try to theory-craft, your set down to 10 sets out of like 300-600 sets (I’m guessing I don’t know how many sets, there is a bunch)

Theory-crafting has always been a unique part of Eso, but if every build is using the same sets and same skills, is it really theory crafting any more?

I agree that there will always be a skill gap, there will always be BiS situations and there should be. A 10 year veteran SHOULD be better than your 3 month old. But, in most MMOs , gear only gives you a slight edge. In ESO, certain situations are different.

For example, in pvp if you slot master dual wield, you will immediately have a 500-1000 dps increase. Almost every single build uses master dual wield. (I even stooped as low as back barring master dual wield even on my mag builds). There’s really no reason to not use master dw.

At the end of the day, in pvp and pve. Only about 3% of the sets in the game are usable. The other sets are just so far behind.

I don’t like the idea of removing sets from the game because they are bad. Likely, we won’t get no changes to the old sets, seeing that we had no balance changes this week.

Who knows Zos might be cooking something up , but maybe I’m just dreaming.

Bushido2513 · October 2023

Dekrypted wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

In every long running series you're always going to have filler episodes and these sets are it for ESO. At this point there's only so many ways to cook the same meal.

They could certainly take some sets away but I think due to limitations of the tech, dev time, etc that is going to be hard to redo old sets in a way that would make them any more viable or interesting than the current front runners.

I think the easiest method to make some kind of adjustment would be to just look at the scaling of some sets. Ive ran high spell damage builds and something like Vipers sting (I know, it's old) just to see what the numbers would look like and it wasn't that great.

Surely an adjustment like that to some sets isn't a huge ask compared to total reworks. Imo balance needs to be addressed for sure, but it's a huge lift for these "devs"

Well I see what you're saying and could agree that a rebalance of sets isn't a bad idea though it's a gamble because let's say you get the balance right and now you either have people saying yay I can now wear my favorite set and do ok or you have people saying well what's the point if it's just the same or slightly less than best in slot.

I personally would enjoy the added variation if some of the proc sets were worth equipping again. At the same time I'd almost prefer they spent that time on other balance issues that are more important. It's tricky because there's so much that needs to be fixed in this game.

But yeah I would be down on some level with having old sets have a resurgence. Though now that I think of it I'd rather they just got rid of them and made cooler sets, such a catch 22 I know.

Necrotech_Master · October 2023

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Dekrypted wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

In every long running series you're always going to have filler episodes and these sets are it for ESO. At this point there's only so many ways to cook the same meal.

They could certainly take some sets away but I think due to limitations of the tech, dev time, etc that is going to be hard to redo old sets in a way that would make them any more viable or interesting than the current front runners.

I think the easiest method to make some kind of adjustment would be to just look at the scaling of some sets. Ive ran high spell damage builds and something like Vipers sting (I know, it's old) just to see what the numbers would look like and it wasn't that great.

Surely an adjustment like that to some sets isn't a huge ask compared to total reworks. Imo balance needs to be addressed for sure, but it's a huge lift for these "devs"

Well I see what you're saying and could agree that a rebalance of sets isn't a bad idea though it's a gamble because let's say you get the balance right and now you either have people saying yay I can now wear my favorite set and do ok or you have people saying well what's the point if it's just the same or slightly less than best in slot.

I personally would enjoy the added variation if some of the proc sets were worth equipping again. At the same time I'd almost prefer they spent that time on other balance issues that are more important. It's tricky because there's so much that needs to be fixed in this game.

But yeah I would be down on some level with having old sets have a resurgence. Though now that I think of it I'd rather they just got rid of them and made cooler sets, such a catch 22 I know.

there is some precedence already for overhauling sets

the biggest overhaul set i know of is the crusader set from spindleclutch dungeon

the original set was like this:

2 items: Adds 25-1096 Maximum Stamina
3 items: Adds 3-129 Stamina Recovery
4 items: Adds 25-1096 Maximum Stamina
5 items: Increases the duration of the dodge chance bonus of Roll Dodge by 0.3 seconds.

but this was completely overhauled in the "waking flame" update in 2021 to be this (what it is currently)

2 items: Adds 3-129 Weapon and Spell Damage
3 items: Adds 3-129 Weapon and Spell Damage
4 items: Adds 3-129 Weapon and Spell Damage
5 items: When you deal direct damage with a Blink, Charge, Leap, Teleport, or Pull ability, you consecrate the ground beneath you for 10 seconds and gain a damage shield that absorbs 1595 damage for 6 seconds. Every 2 seconds you and up to 11 group members in the area gain Minor Courage for 12 seconds. These effects can occur once every 20 seconds and the damage shield scales off the higher of your Weapon or Spell Damage.

OBJnoob · October 2023

FoJul wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

I think it's important to the MMORPG experience that some sets are better than others. There's supposed to be a progression of gearing that you can aspire for while leveling up, going from base game dungeons to vet dlc, arenas, trials etc. It really wouldn't be right for something like hundings rage to be on par with pillar of nirn, would it?

90% of the fun of these games is theorycrafting. Some sets being better than others is necessary to the theorycrafting process. When all sets are equal what is there to theorize about? How can there be a good if there is not a bad?

What honestly ruins it for us and leaves us feeling like we have a lack of options (when actually we don't,) are things like these forums and the PTS. Where before a set even goes live people have discovered it sucks or it is OP, spread that information through the internet, and robbed everybody else of the opportunity to see for themselves. And even though I say "robbed" I don't mean to imply it's anyone's fault-- simply that we're victims of our own technological success. Knowing what sets are good or not, by having used them, is supposed to be part of the skill gap. It is unfortunately not.

But so you have a couple hundred players that've played the game for 5...6...10 years (as most of us here have,) and you have all this knowledge at your disposal. Plus the wealth of experiences you've already had. And you are left feeling like there's not enough classes... Not enough gear sets... Nothing new to do.

This isn't the games fault. This is what happens when you've played a game to death. This is what happens when you're competitive and only want to use what's best... And have everybody telling you what's best.

I somewhat agree, but also disagree. I know this is ESO and is its own game. But when you compare it to other games, gear plays a HUGE part in separating the skill gap.

What I mean, is if any build right now on live isn’t running Relequen/pillar/ or whorl you’re just going to be so far behind. This isn’t fair.

From a pvp perspective, if you try to theory-craft, your set down to 10 sets out of like 300-600 sets (I’m guessing I don’t know how many sets, there is a bunch)

Theory-crafting has always been a unique part of Eso, but if every build is using the same sets and same skills, is it really theory crafting any more?

I agree that there will always be a skill gap, there will always be BiS situations and there should be. A 10 year veteran SHOULD be better than your 3 month old. But, in most MMOs , gear only gives you a slight edge. In ESO, certain situations are different.

For example, in pvp if you slot master dual wield, you will immediately have a 500-1000 dps increase. Almost every single build uses master dual wield. (I even stooped as low as back barring master dual wield even on my mag builds). There’s really no reason to not use master dw.

At the end of the day, in pvp and pve. Only about 3% of the sets in the game are usable. The other sets are just so far behind.

I don’t like the idea of removing sets from the game because they are bad. Likely, we won’t get no changes to the old sets, seeing that we had no balance changes this week.

Who knows Zos might be cooking something up , but maybe I’m just dreaming.

For the record I also agree

and disagree.

The discrepancy between some sets, that seem meant for the same purpose, is sometimes too great. I'm not suggesting that balancing sets (and classes,) shouldn't be an ongoing affair. Simply that the very oldest sets don't need to be revamped every time a fleet of new stellar sets arrive.

A new DLC comes out... Two new dungeons with it... Some of the sets are new and stronger than any of the old sets. Some people look at this scenario and call it "Pay to Win," and it is to a certain extent. But to a certain extent, "In Character," if you will, it's also very understandable. More content came out. More story. The new content is progressively harder. Not only do characters need progressively better gear to complete said content but it also stands to reason that a character with more achievements, so to speak, would have access to better gear.

I mean if your character has never been to Artaeum... Never been to Craglorn, or Murkmire, or Summerset... Never done Dreadsail, Frostvault... Never completed an arena... Hasn't progressed very far in the story... Then why should they have access to top tier gear?

You gotta do the content. And, sadly, to do the content you gotta buy the content. It's really not as criminal as people make it out to be. They put a product together. If you buy it you have it and if not then not. For scorepushers that buy DLCs just for that one new mythic or 5-piece then I suppose they feel ripped off. For completionists I'm sure they are satisfied. Because, though we may rightfully criticize ZOS for this or that or wish their intentions were here not there... They worked to produce what we play, and there's actually a lot to it if you enjoy the game AS A WHOLE.

Which leads me to my next point about people that enjoy different things. Some people role play and maybe enjoy the Spelunker set. Some people farm nodes all day and maybe enjoy the Adept Rider set. What is bad to some may not be bad to others. Everything doesn't need to push you past 100k DPS or let you tank a zerg.

I'm mostly a PvPer myself, but we all do dungeons and arenas from time to time. I don't, nor have I ever, used relequen whorl or pillar. Nor do I, or ever have, used a Vateshran Staff or Masters DW in PvP. And I do fine. More than fine-- by any standards other than the standard people on these forums seem to have.

When I encounter a meta DK played by an above average player do I die? Yup, sure do. But between that person that killed me and the person that'll kill me next do you know how many people I kill? 5? 10?

It is incorrect to say that only 10 sets are viable for PvP. Same for PvE, though I know less about it.

If you demand it of yourself to be the top 1% then I suppose it is true you will need the top 1% of gear. But that's a box you put yourself in. And you'll have to excuse my sardonic laughter as you then complain about a lack of options.

Me? Eh, I might be a top 10% player. Let's just be safe and say top 20%. Slightly worse than all of you perhaps. But you know what? I can slap any piece of trash on my toons and go kill people and have fun. There's a big difference between saying "I wish I had new gear to try" and "I wish a new set of gear was best so I, and everyone else, could use that instead."

Because the very second they buff Hundings to be as good as Whorl then half the people will switch. And whenever some expert mathematician identifies which is ACTUALLY best then the other half will switch too. I don't see how this is preferable. This is exactly the same and will appease you for exactly 1 patch cycle. It doesn't matter if it's 1k DPS ahead or 50k. People without it will get kicked out of trials. By people like you-- no offense.

ESO_Nightingale · October 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

I think it's important to the MMORPG experience that some sets are better than others. There's supposed to be a progression of gearing that you can aspire for while leveling up, going from base game dungeons to vet dlc, arenas, trials etc. It really wouldn't be right for something like hundings rage to be on par with pillar of nirn, would it?

90% of the fun of these games is theorycrafting. Some sets being better than others is necessary to the theorycrafting process. When all sets are equal what is there to theorize about? How can there be a good if there is not a bad?

What honestly ruins it for us and leaves us feeling like we have a lack of options (when actually we don't,) are things like these forums and the PTS. Where before a set even goes live people have discovered it sucks or it is OP, spread that information through the internet, and robbed everybody else of the opportunity to see for themselves. And even though I say "robbed" I don't mean to imply it's anyone's fault-- simply that we're victims of our own technological success. Knowing what sets are good or not, by having used them, is supposed to be part of the skill gap. It is unfortunately not.

But so you have a couple hundred players that've played the game for 5...6...10 years (as most of us here have,) and you have all this knowledge at your disposal. Plus the wealth of experiences you've already had. And you are left feeling like there's not enough classes... Not enough gear sets... Nothing new to do.

This isn't the games fault. This is what happens when you've played a game to death. This is what happens when you're competitive and only want to use what's best... And have everybody telling you what's best.

I somewhat agree, but also disagree. I know this is ESO and is its own game. But when you compare it to other games, gear plays a HUGE part in separating the skill gap.

What I mean, is if any build right now on live isn’t running Relequen/pillar/ or whorl you’re just going to be so far behind. This isn’t fair.

From a pvp perspective, if you try to theory-craft, your set down to 10 sets out of like 300-600 sets (I’m guessing I don’t know how many sets, there is a bunch)

Theory-crafting has always been a unique part of Eso, but if every build is using the same sets and same skills, is it really theory crafting any more?

I agree that there will always be a skill gap, there will always be BiS situations and there should be. A 10 year veteran SHOULD be better than your 3 month old. But, in most MMOs , gear only gives you a slight edge. In ESO, certain situations are different.

For example, in pvp if you slot master dual wield, you will immediately have a 500-1000 dps increase. Almost every single build uses master dual wield. (I even stooped as low as back barring master dual wield even on my mag builds). There’s really no reason to not use master dw.

At the end of the day, in pvp and pve. Only about 3% of the sets in the game are usable. The other sets are just so far behind.

I don’t like the idea of removing sets from the game because they are bad. Likely, we won’t get no changes to the old sets, seeing that we had no balance changes this week.

Who knows Zos might be cooking something up , but maybe I’m just dreaming.

For the record I also agree and disagree.

The discrepancy between some sets, that seem meant for the same purpose, is sometimes too great. I'm not suggesting that balancing sets (and classes,) shouldn't be an ongoing affair. Simply that the very oldest sets don't need to be revamped every time a fleet of new stellar sets arrive.

A new DLC comes out... Two new dungeons with it... Some of the sets are new and stronger than any of the old sets. Some people look at this scenario and call it "Pay to Win," and it is to a certain extent. But to a certain extent, "In Character," if you will, it's also very understandable. More content came out. More story. The new content is progressively harder. Not only do characters need progressively better gear to complete said content but it also stands to reason that a character with more achievements, so to speak, would have access to better gear.

I mean if your character has never been to Artaeum... Never been to Craglorn, or Murkmire, or Summerset... Never done Dreadsail, Frostvault... Never completed an arena... Hasn't progressed very far in the story... Then why should they have access to top tier gear?

You gotta do the content. And, sadly, to do the content you gotta buy the content. It's really not as criminal as people make it out to be. They put a product together. If you buy it you have it and if not then not. For scorepushers that buy DLCs just for that one new mythic or 5-piece then I suppose they feel ripped off. For completionists I'm sure they are satisfied. Because, though we may rightfully criticize ZOS for this or that or wish their intentions were here not there... They worked to produce what we play, and there's actually a lot to it if you enjoy the game AS A WHOLE.

Which leads me to my next point about people that enjoy different things. Some people role play and maybe enjoy the Spelunker set. Some people farm nodes all day and maybe enjoy the Adept Rider set. What is bad to some may not be bad to others. Everything doesn't need to push you past 100k DPS or let you tank a zerg.

I'm mostly a PvPer myself, but we all do dungeons and arenas from time to time. I don't, nor have I ever, used relequen whorl or pillar. Nor do I, or ever have, used a Vateshran Staff or Masters DW in PvP. And I do fine. More than fine-- by any standards other than the standard people on these forums seem to have.

When I encounter a meta DK played by an above average player do I die? Yup, sure do. But between that person that killed me and the person that'll kill me next do you know how many people I kill? 5? 10?

It is incorrect to say that only 10 sets are viable for PvP. Same for PvE, though I know less about it.

If you demand it of yourself to be the top 1% then I suppose it is true you will need the top 1% of gear. But that's a box you put yourself in. And you'll have to excuse my sardonic laughter as you then complain about a lack of options.

Me? Eh, I might be a top 10% player. Let's just be safe and say top 20%. Slightly worse than all of you perhaps. But you know what? I can slap any piece of trash on my toons and go kill people and have fun. There's a big difference between saying "I wish I had new gear to try" and "I wish a new set of gear was best so I, and everyone else, could use that instead."

Because the very second they buff Hundings to be as good as Whorl then half the people will switch. And whenever some expert mathematician identifies which is ACTUALLY best then the other half will switch too. I don't see how this is preferable. This is exactly the same and will appease you for exactly 1 patch cycle. It doesn't matter if it's 1k DPS ahead or 50k. People without it will get kicked out of trials. By people like you-- no offense.

I don't think every set can be viable, but i think at the very least, every unique recognised build should have at least 1 or 2 item sets that are uniquely best in slot for it. Minor Slayer is a major problem for the viability of other sets as you need at least one set to be a trial set. Beyond that it's individual tuning and lack of ability to build in a sets specific way. Sets that require building a specific way like storm cursed's revenge and frostbite should heavily reward pure shock and pure frost builds but right now they're unable to due to lack of viable sources of that damage. Frostbite Frost Warden builds can only build at most 40-45% of their damage as frost damage which can't beat other best in slot sets except for in aoe trash situations. We simply lack frost damage skills beyond frost reach and 3 AoE DoT skills. We can't even use northern storm because bear makes up 15-17% of our damage.

OBJnoob · October 2023

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

I think it's important to the MMORPG experience that some sets are better than others. There's supposed to be a progression of gearing that you can aspire for while leveling up, going from base game dungeons to vet dlc, arenas, trials etc. It really wouldn't be right for something like hundings rage to be on par with pillar of nirn, would it?

90% of the fun of these games is theorycrafting. Some sets being better than others is necessary to the theorycrafting process. When all sets are equal what is there to theorize about? How can there be a good if there is not a bad?

What honestly ruins it for us and leaves us feeling like we have a lack of options (when actually we don't,) are things like these forums and the PTS. Where before a set even goes live people have discovered it sucks or it is OP, spread that information through the internet, and robbed everybody else of the opportunity to see for themselves. And even though I say "robbed" I don't mean to imply it's anyone's fault-- simply that we're victims of our own technological success. Knowing what sets are good or not, by having used them, is supposed to be part of the skill gap. It is unfortunately not.

But so you have a couple hundred players that've played the game for 5...6...10 years (as most of us here have,) and you have all this knowledge at your disposal. Plus the wealth of experiences you've already had. And you are left feeling like there's not enough classes... Not enough gear sets... Nothing new to do.

This isn't the games fault. This is what happens when you've played a game to death. This is what happens when you're competitive and only want to use what's best... And have everybody telling you what's best.

I somewhat agree, but also disagree. I know this is ESO and is its own game. But when you compare it to other games, gear plays a HUGE part in separating the skill gap.

What I mean, is if any build right now on live isn’t running Relequen/pillar/ or whorl you’re just going to be so far behind. This isn’t fair.

From a pvp perspective, if you try to theory-craft, your set down to 10 sets out of like 300-600 sets (I’m guessing I don’t know how many sets, there is a bunch)

Theory-crafting has always been a unique part of Eso, but if every build is using the same sets and same skills, is it really theory crafting any more?

I agree that there will always be a skill gap, there will always be BiS situations and there should be. A 10 year veteran SHOULD be better than your 3 month old. But, in most MMOs , gear only gives you a slight edge. In ESO, certain situations are different.

For example, in pvp if you slot master dual wield, you will immediately have a 500-1000 dps increase. Almost every single build uses master dual wield. (I even stooped as low as back barring master dual wield even on my mag builds). There’s really no reason to not use master dw.

At the end of the day, in pvp and pve. Only about 3% of the sets in the game are usable. The other sets are just so far behind.

I don’t like the idea of removing sets from the game because they are bad. Likely, we won’t get no changes to the old sets, seeing that we had no balance changes this week.

Who knows Zos might be cooking something up , but maybe I’m just dreaming.

For the record I also agree and disagree.

The discrepancy between some sets, that seem meant for the same purpose, is sometimes too great. I'm not suggesting that balancing sets (and classes,) shouldn't be an ongoing affair. Simply that the very oldest sets don't need to be revamped every time a fleet of new stellar sets arrive.

A new DLC comes out... Two new dungeons with it... Some of the sets are new and stronger than any of the old sets. Some people look at this scenario and call it "Pay to Win," and it is to a certain extent. But to a certain extent, "In Character," if you will, it's also very understandable. More content came out. More story. The new content is progressively harder. Not only do characters need progressively better gear to complete said content but it also stands to reason that a character with more achievements, so to speak, would have access to better gear.

I mean if your character has never been to Artaeum... Never been to Craglorn, or Murkmire, or Summerset... Never done Dreadsail, Frostvault... Never completed an arena... Hasn't progressed very far in the story... Then why should they have access to top tier gear?

You gotta do the content. And, sadly, to do the content you gotta buy the content. It's really not as criminal as people make it out to be. They put a product together. If you buy it you have it and if not then not. For scorepushers that buy DLCs just for that one new mythic or 5-piece then I suppose they feel ripped off. For completionists I'm sure they are satisfied. Because, though we may rightfully criticize ZOS for this or that or wish their intentions were here not there... They worked to produce what we play, and there's actually a lot to it if you enjoy the game AS A WHOLE.

Which leads me to my next point about people that enjoy different things. Some people role play and maybe enjoy the Spelunker set. Some people farm nodes all day and maybe enjoy the Adept Rider set. What is bad to some may not be bad to others. Everything doesn't need to push you past 100k DPS or let you tank a zerg.

I'm mostly a PvPer myself, but we all do dungeons and arenas from time to time. I don't, nor have I ever, used relequen whorl or pillar. Nor do I, or ever have, used a Vateshran Staff or Masters DW in PvP. And I do fine. More than fine-- by any standards other than the standard people on these forums seem to have.

When I encounter a meta DK played by an above average player do I die? Yup, sure do. But between that person that killed me and the person that'll kill me next do you know how many people I kill? 5? 10?

It is incorrect to say that only 10 sets are viable for PvP. Same for PvE, though I know less about it.

If you demand it of yourself to be the top 1% then I suppose it is true you will need the top 1% of gear. But that's a box you put yourself in. And you'll have to excuse my sardonic laughter as you then complain about a lack of options.

Me? Eh, I might be a top 10% player. Let's just be safe and say top 20%. Slightly worse than all of you perhaps. But you know what? I can slap any piece of trash on my toons and go kill people and have fun. There's a big difference between saying "I wish I had new gear to try" and "I wish a new set of gear was best so I, and everyone else, could use that instead."

Because the very second they buff Hundings to be as good as Whorl then half the people will switch. And whenever some expert mathematician identifies which is ACTUALLY best then the other half will switch too. I don't see how this is preferable. This is exactly the same and will appease you for exactly 1 patch cycle. It doesn't matter if it's 1k DPS ahead or 50k. People without it will get kicked out of trials. By people like you-- no offense.

I don't think every set can be viable, but i think at the very least, every unique recognised build should have at least 1 or 2 item sets that are uniquely best in slot for it. Minor Slayer is a major problem for the viability of other sets as you need at least one set to be a trial set. Beyond that it's individual tuning and lack of ability to build in a sets specific way. Sets that require building a specific way like storm cursed's revenge and frostbite should heavily reward pure shock and pure frost builds but right now they're unable to due to lack of viable sources of that damage. Frostbite Frost Warden builds can only build at most 40-45% of their damage as frost damage which can't beat other best in slot sets except for in aoe trash situations. We simply lack frost damage skills beyond frost reach and 3 AoE DoT skills. We can't even use northern storm because bear makes up 15-17% of our damage.

I mean that just makes my point though doesn't it? In every way.

Do you know how many people would NOT know that the bear does exactly 16% of their damage if it weren't for target dummies and combat metrics? How many more people would use Frostbite then? Do you think all these people would fall flat on their faces in content? I suspect, more likely, they'd complete it. And not worry about the extra 2 minutes it took.

I'm not sure people know what the word viable means. You're all clearly using a very specialized ESO slang definition of it.

Have fun and do what you want, within the confines of reason, to accomplish your goal. OR. Try to be the best and feel forced into the same meta all your competition wears. Congrats-- you're now tied for best with 3000 other people LOL. In either case-- you have played "how you want." So please stop acting like anyone is twisting your arm.

If you can't find creativity and fun in a game like this then you perhaps take it too seriously.

maxjapank · October 2023

Have a golded Grisly Gourmet set sitting in a chest, hoping someday they will make this set viable again. Why would you want to light attack in order to get a chance at empower, empower which only effects heavy attacks? Such a wasted set.

Tyrant_Tim · October 2023

maxjapank wrote: »

Have a golded Grisly Gourmet set sitting in a chest, hoping someday they will make this set viable again. Why would you want to light attack in order to get a chance at empower, empower which only effects heavy attacks? Such a wasted set.

And only for PvE, mind you.

When Empower was changed, they ripped several sets out of PvP and haven’t looked back.

ESO_Nightingale · October 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

I think it's important to the MMORPG experience that some sets are better than others. There's supposed to be a progression of gearing that you can aspire for while leveling up, going from base game dungeons to vet dlc, arenas, trials etc. It really wouldn't be right for something like hundings rage to be on par with pillar of nirn, would it?

90% of the fun of these games is theorycrafting. Some sets being better than others is necessary to the theorycrafting process. When all sets are equal what is there to theorize about? How can there be a good if there is not a bad?

What honestly ruins it for us and leaves us feeling like we have a lack of options (when actually we don't,) are things like these forums and the PTS. Where before a set even goes live people have discovered it sucks or it is OP, spread that information through the internet, and robbed everybody else of the opportunity to see for themselves. And even though I say "robbed" I don't mean to imply it's anyone's fault-- simply that we're victims of our own technological success. Knowing what sets are good or not, by having used them, is supposed to be part of the skill gap. It is unfortunately not.

But so you have a couple hundred players that've played the game for 5...6...10 years (as most of us here have,) and you have all this knowledge at your disposal. Plus the wealth of experiences you've already had. And you are left feeling like there's not enough classes... Not enough gear sets... Nothing new to do.

This isn't the games fault. This is what happens when you've played a game to death. This is what happens when you're competitive and only want to use what's best... And have everybody telling you what's best.

I somewhat agree, but also disagree. I know this is ESO and is its own game. But when you compare it to other games, gear plays a HUGE part in separating the skill gap.

What I mean, is if any build right now on live isn’t running Relequen/pillar/ or whorl you’re just going to be so far behind. This isn’t fair.

From a pvp perspective, if you try to theory-craft, your set down to 10 sets out of like 300-600 sets (I’m guessing I don’t know how many sets, there is a bunch)

Theory-crafting has always been a unique part of Eso, but if every build is using the same sets and same skills, is it really theory crafting any more?

I agree that there will always be a skill gap, there will always be BiS situations and there should be. A 10 year veteran SHOULD be better than your 3 month old. But, in most MMOs , gear only gives you a slight edge. In ESO, certain situations are different.

For example, in pvp if you slot master dual wield, you will immediately have a 500-1000 dps increase. Almost every single build uses master dual wield. (I even stooped as low as back barring master dual wield even on my mag builds). There’s really no reason to not use master dw.

At the end of the day, in pvp and pve. Only about 3% of the sets in the game are usable. The other sets are just so far behind.

I don’t like the idea of removing sets from the game because they are bad. Likely, we won’t get no changes to the old sets, seeing that we had no balance changes this week.

Who knows Zos might be cooking something up , but maybe I’m just dreaming.

For the record I also agree and disagree.

The discrepancy between some sets, that seem meant for the same purpose, is sometimes too great. I'm not suggesting that balancing sets (and classes,) shouldn't be an ongoing affair. Simply that the very oldest sets don't need to be revamped every time a fleet of new stellar sets arrive.

A new DLC comes out... Two new dungeons with it... Some of the sets are new and stronger than any of the old sets. Some people look at this scenario and call it "Pay to Win," and it is to a certain extent. But to a certain extent, "In Character," if you will, it's also very understandable. More content came out. More story. The new content is progressively harder. Not only do characters need progressively better gear to complete said content but it also stands to reason that a character with more achievements, so to speak, would have access to better gear.

I mean if your character has never been to Artaeum... Never been to Craglorn, or Murkmire, or Summerset... Never done Dreadsail, Frostvault... Never completed an arena... Hasn't progressed very far in the story... Then why should they have access to top tier gear?

You gotta do the content. And, sadly, to do the content you gotta buy the content. It's really not as criminal as people make it out to be. They put a product together. If you buy it you have it and if not then not. For scorepushers that buy DLCs just for that one new mythic or 5-piece then I suppose they feel ripped off. For completionists I'm sure they are satisfied. Because, though we may rightfully criticize ZOS for this or that or wish their intentions were here not there... They worked to produce what we play, and there's actually a lot to it if you enjoy the game AS A WHOLE.

Which leads me to my next point about people that enjoy different things. Some people role play and maybe enjoy the Spelunker set. Some people farm nodes all day and maybe enjoy the Adept Rider set. What is bad to some may not be bad to others. Everything doesn't need to push you past 100k DPS or let you tank a zerg.

I'm mostly a PvPer myself, but we all do dungeons and arenas from time to time. I don't, nor have I ever, used relequen whorl or pillar. Nor do I, or ever have, used a Vateshran Staff or Masters DW in PvP. And I do fine. More than fine-- by any standards other than the standard people on these forums seem to have.

When I encounter a meta DK played by an above average player do I die? Yup, sure do. But between that person that killed me and the person that'll kill me next do you know how many people I kill? 5? 10?

It is incorrect to say that only 10 sets are viable for PvP. Same for PvE, though I know less about it.

If you demand it of yourself to be the top 1% then I suppose it is true you will need the top 1% of gear. But that's a box you put yourself in. And you'll have to excuse my sardonic laughter as you then complain about a lack of options.

Me? Eh, I might be a top 10% player. Let's just be safe and say top 20%. Slightly worse than all of you perhaps. But you know what? I can slap any piece of trash on my toons and go kill people and have fun. There's a big difference between saying "I wish I had new gear to try" and "I wish a new set of gear was best so I, and everyone else, could use that instead."

Because the very second they buff Hundings to be as good as Whorl then half the people will switch. And whenever some expert mathematician identifies which is ACTUALLY best then the other half will switch too. I don't see how this is preferable. This is exactly the same and will appease you for exactly 1 patch cycle. It doesn't matter if it's 1k DPS ahead or 50k. People without it will get kicked out of trials. By people like you-- no offense.

I don't think every set can be viable, but i think at the very least, every unique recognised build should have at least 1 or 2 item sets that are uniquely best in slot for it. Minor Slayer is a major problem for the viability of other sets as you need at least one set to be a trial set. Beyond that it's individual tuning and lack of ability to build in a sets specific way. Sets that require building a specific way like storm cursed's revenge and frostbite should heavily reward pure shock and pure frost builds but right now they're unable to due to lack of viable sources of that damage. Frostbite Frost Warden builds can only build at most 40-45% of their damage as frost damage which can't beat other best in slot sets except for in aoe trash situations. We simply lack frost damage skills beyond frost reach and 3 AoE DoT skills. We can't even use northern storm because bear makes up 15-17% of our damage.

I mean that just makes my point though doesn't it? In every way.

Do you know how many people would NOT know that the bear does exactly 16% of their damage if it weren't for target dummies and combat metrics? How many more people would use Frostbite then? Do you think all these people would fall flat on their faces in content? I suspect, more likely, they'd complete it. And not worry about the extra 2 minutes it took.

I'm not sure people know what the word viable means. You're all clearly using a very specialized ESO slang definition of it.

Have fun and do what you want, within the confines of reason, to accomplish your goal. OR. Try to be the best and feel forced into the same meta all your competition wears. Congrats-- you're now tied for best with 3000 other people LOL. In either case-- you have played "how you want." So please stop acting like anyone is twisting your arm.

If you can't find creativity and fun in a game like this then you perhaps take it too seriously.

We live in a world where people who get cake actually want to eat it too. Just because you're content with staring at it doesn't mean everyone else needs to be.

FoJul · October 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

I think it's important to the MMORPG experience that some sets are better than others. There's supposed to be a progression of gearing that you can aspire for while leveling up, going from base game dungeons to vet dlc, arenas, trials etc. It really wouldn't be right for something like hundings rage to be on par with pillar of nirn, would it?

90% of the fun of these games is theorycrafting. Some sets being better than others is necessary to the theorycrafting process. When all sets are equal what is there to theorize about? How can there be a good if there is not a bad?

What honestly ruins it for us and leaves us feeling like we have a lack of options (when actually we don't,) are things like these forums and the PTS. Where before a set even goes live people have discovered it sucks or it is OP, spread that information through the internet, and robbed everybody else of the opportunity to see for themselves. And even though I say "robbed" I don't mean to imply it's anyone's fault-- simply that we're victims of our own technological success. Knowing what sets are good or not, by having used them, is supposed to be part of the skill gap. It is unfortunately not.

But so you have a couple hundred players that've played the game for 5...6...10 years (as most of us here have,) and you have all this knowledge at your disposal. Plus the wealth of experiences you've already had. And you are left feeling like there's not enough classes... Not enough gear sets... Nothing new to do.

This isn't the games fault. This is what happens when you've played a game to death. This is what happens when you're competitive and only want to use what's best... And have everybody telling you what's best.

I somewhat agree, but also disagree. I know this is ESO and is its own game. But when you compare it to other games, gear plays a HUGE part in separating the skill gap.

What I mean, is if any build right now on live isn’t running Relequen/pillar/ or whorl you’re just going to be so far behind. This isn’t fair.

From a pvp perspective, if you try to theory-craft, your set down to 10 sets out of like 300-600 sets (I’m guessing I don’t know how many sets, there is a bunch)

Theory-crafting has always been a unique part of Eso, but if every build is using the same sets and same skills, is it really theory crafting any more?

I agree that there will always be a skill gap, there will always be BiS situations and there should be. A 10 year veteran SHOULD be better than your 3 month old. But, in most MMOs , gear only gives you a slight edge. In ESO, certain situations are different.

For example, in pvp if you slot master dual wield, you will immediately have a 500-1000 dps increase. Almost every single build uses master dual wield. (I even stooped as low as back barring master dual wield even on my mag builds). There’s really no reason to not use master dw.

At the end of the day, in pvp and pve. Only about 3% of the sets in the game are usable. The other sets are just so far behind.

I don’t like the idea of removing sets from the game because they are bad. Likely, we won’t get no changes to the old sets, seeing that we had no balance changes this week.

Who knows Zos might be cooking something up , but maybe I’m just dreaming.

For the record I also agree and disagree.

The discrepancy between some sets, that seem meant for the same purpose, is sometimes too great. I'm not suggesting that balancing sets (and classes,) shouldn't be an ongoing affair. Simply that the very oldest sets don't need to be revamped every time a fleet of new stellar sets arrive.

A new DLC comes out... Two new dungeons with it... Some of the sets are new and stronger than any of the old sets. Some people look at this scenario and call it "Pay to Win," and it is to a certain extent. But to a certain extent, "In Character," if you will, it's also very understandable. More content came out. More story. The new content is progressively harder. Not only do characters need progressively better gear to complete said content but it also stands to reason that a character with more achievements, so to speak, would have access to better gear.

I mean if your character has never been to Artaeum... Never been to Craglorn, or Murkmire, or Summerset... Never done Dreadsail, Frostvault... Never completed an arena... Hasn't progressed very far in the story... Then why should they have access to top tier gear?

You gotta do the content. And, sadly, to do the content you gotta buy the content. It's really not as criminal as people make it out to be. They put a product together. If you buy it you have it and if not then not. For scorepushers that buy DLCs just for that one new mythic or 5-piece then I suppose they feel ripped off. For completionists I'm sure they are satisfied. Because, though we may rightfully criticize ZOS for this or that or wish their intentions were here not there... They worked to produce what we play, and there's actually a lot to it if you enjoy the game AS A WHOLE.

Which leads me to my next point about people that enjoy different things. Some people role play and maybe enjoy the Spelunker set. Some people farm nodes all day and maybe enjoy the Adept Rider set. What is bad to some may not be bad to others. Everything doesn't need to push you past 100k DPS or let you tank a zerg.

I'm mostly a PvPer myself, but we all do dungeons and arenas from time to time. I don't, nor have I ever, used relequen whorl or pillar. Nor do I, or ever have, used a Vateshran Staff or Masters DW in PvP. And I do fine. More than fine-- by any standards other than the standard people on these forums seem to have.

When I encounter a meta DK played by an above average player do I die? Yup, sure do. But between that person that killed me and the person that'll kill me next do you know how many people I kill? 5? 10?

It is incorrect to say that only 10 sets are viable for PvP. Same for PvE, though I know less about it.

If you demand it of yourself to be the top 1% then I suppose it is true you will need the top 1% of gear. But that's a box you put yourself in. And you'll have to excuse my sardonic laughter as you then complain about a lack of options.

Me? Eh, I might be a top 10% player. Let's just be safe and say top 20%. Slightly worse than all of you perhaps. But you know what? I can slap any piece of trash on my toons and go kill people and have fun. There's a big difference between saying "I wish I had new gear to try" and "I wish a new set of gear was best so I, and everyone else, could use that instead."

Because the very second they buff Hundings to be as good as Whorl then half the people will switch. And whenever some expert mathematician identifies which is ACTUALLY best then the other half will switch too. I don't see how this is preferable. This is exactly the same and will appease you for exactly 1 patch cycle. It doesn't matter if it's 1k DPS ahead or 50k. People without it will get kicked out of trials. By people like you-- no offense.

Your points are a little murky here. Hundings rage is a crafted set, as it still can be used sure. But not practical. Rallying Cry gives you not far from that same ammount of weapon and spell damage, but also gives more than enough crit resistance. Most of the crafted sets, including the new ones aren't really the best in Slot. They all have downsides to them or have dungeon or overland sets that are better. For the exact reason you said a fresh character shouldn't be doing better than someone who has spent time and dedication to build there toon.

But, what I'm stating, is some proc sets and other wierd sets that used to have a use have been outdated by all the balance changes. For example, Nightblade has access to 2 different major bezerk and 1 minor bezerk in class abilities alone. So that makes kinra's not a good option anymore.

Literally any stat dense set isn't going to come close to proc sets in dungeons/trials/or just parsing. If a lot of sets offered more, it would be a different story. When I said target the sets that were originally part of the base game. That's just a start. I'm sure we can make a seperate thread and ask people what sets they think should be reworked, and there will be a lot of different answer. In fact, I'm making that thread in Combat and Mechanics here shortly.
EDIT: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/644279/what-sets-do-you-think-need-adjusted-reworked/p1?new=1

If you want a PvP example. Take Troll king for instance. After the changes to health recovery from battle spirit that set is literally trash. In no build is it safe to use Troll King. It doesn't matter "If you wanna have fun and use anything and still get kills". In that case just throw on some trash loot from dreughs and run with a zerg spamming templar beam. GG

But if you want to have actual engaging fights, lets turn to the 3 most popular sets. Markyn/Rallying Cry/Balorgh...With the other damage set either being Way of Fire or Something with crit damage baked into it.

I know its asking a lot to fix sets, and most likely they aren't never going too. But I can at least hope right? Got to bring it to the attention of others to get it at least talked about.

StaticWave · October 2023

People aren’t asking for all sets to be equal in power. They’re asking for sets to give enough value for the condition they require to proc.

There’s gear progression where people strive for better sets, but they shouldn’t be a must-have on the majority of builds, like Rallying Cry/Master DW/Way of Fire. I can deal with a 5-10% power loss from slotting a non meta set, but I shouldn’t be losing 20% (using CMX DPS values as reference by comparing non meta sets vs meta sets).

Quethrosar · October 2023

parsing is one thing real world is another, real world comes down to how well you rotate versus the sets you wear. i can 110 parse but in content i will use other sets that are more fun and still get high dps on hodors, often times higher than people with larger parse scores than me.

The only real competition is arcanists because all they need to do is beam. can't wait for there nerf.

FoJul · October 2023

Dekrypted wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

If you want a PvP example. Take Troll king for instance. After the changes to health recovery from battle spirit that set is literally trash. In no build is it safe to use Troll King. It doesn't matter "If you wanna have fun and use anything and still get kills". In that case just throw on some trash loot from dreughs and run with a zerg spamming templar beam. GG

But if you want to have actual engaging fights, lets turn to the 3 most popular sets. Markyn/Rallying Cry/Balorgh...With the other damage set either being Way of Fire or Something with crit damage baked into it.

I know its asking a lot to fix sets, and most likely they aren't never going too. But I can at least hope right? Got to bring it to the attention of others to get it at least talked about.

While I do agree with the original sentiment of the 1st post, the battle spirit adjustment involving health recovery not only made sense per the healing reduction that already existed at the time, but served as a means of Zenimax actually doing (to a degree) what players have requested which is balancing PvP and PvE separately.

Not every set is going to require an adjustment and comparing sets like Rallying cry, which is arguably one of the most stat dense sets in the game (because of the amount of critical resistance it gives) with a set like Hundings range/Julianos is a little odd. It would make sense to adjust Julianos and Hundings to not be virtually the same set, because right now they kind of are. Same with Treasure hunter and Toothrow.

As a player who lived through the health recovery meta for pvp, I'm glad to see it gone and I've experienced positive interaction with health recovery tanks in pve.

Accessibility, versatility, and common sense adjustments should be the direction Zenimax heads as it relates to adjusting older sets.

Variety is really needed.

Well, I'm not complaining about health recovery being nerfed. I'm complaining and using Troll King as an example. You can adjust the set to do some sort of a heal similar to Hist Sap/Mara's Balm. The set was originally a single target *healing* set. So health recovery in itself did need adjusted, and they gutted it almost to absolutely nothing.

They can at least give some kind of incentive of wearing Troll King. Rather than it just taking space up in the game and not serving any purpose at all. It's one of those sets that you just can't make work at all.

OBJnoob · October 2023

Well. I think everyone for their responses to my comments. Again, I agree to a certain extent. I'm just trying to provide a different perspective.

I definitely think certain sets overperform sometimes and need to be nerfed. To a lesser degree I also think some things underperform and could be buffed.

All I'm saying is that it's okay, and perhaps even necessary, for some to be stronger than others. Also that we should remember that these forums over-represents the veteran try-hard playerbase and under-represents the casual gamer. There are, for example, less people creating topics to ask questions than there are people who show up knowing the answers and backing it up with spreadsheets and graphs.

Everything doesn't have to be viable for an end-game player to be viable for the game. There's also the beginning and the middle.

So while I do hope the game continues to adjust sets, old and new, and perhaps I even wish they'd speed up the process a bit... Ultimately... I think it's a tall order. And at the rate things "we" want actually get done... I'd almost prefer they just don't mess with this at all. Surely there's more important things to do than make Jailbreaker a good set. If you don't like it don't use it.

But the list of sets you can complete content with is FAR greater than this conversation suggests.

MashmalloMan · October 2023

Dekrypted wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Well, I'm not complaining about health recovery being nerfed. I'm complaining and using Troll King as an example. You can adjust the set to do some sort of a heal similar to Hist Sap/Mara's Balm. The set was originally a single target *healing* set. So health recovery in itself did need adjusted, and they gutted it almost to absolutely nothing.

They can at least give some kind of incentive of wearing Troll King. Rather than it just taking space up in the game and not serving any purpose at all. It's one of those sets that you just can't make work at all.

So in my previous comment, I had mentioned...

Dekrypted wrote: »

While I do agree with the original sentiment of the 1st post, the battle spirit adjustment involving health recovery not only made sense per the healing reduction that already existed at the time, but served as a means of Zenimax actually doing (to a degree) what players have requested which is balancing PvP and PvE separately.

This is why I mentioned sets like Julianos and Hundings which effectively are the same set. Treasure Hunter and Toothrow are effectively the same set. Ever look at Warrior's Fury and Voidcaller? They're the same sets.

I think it's important to understand why these redundancies exist in the first place because it's actually the same reason a set like Troll King has become obsolete.

ZOS makes a blanket change that effects potentially 100s of sets, yet fails to adjust said sets to recoup any ounce of loss made from those adjustments as if that adjustment was perfectly implemented. This statement is both true for Hybridization of sets and the HP Regen battlespirit nerf.

Before hybridization, ZOS designed a set, then that set sat in the game for a few patches before they decided "hey let's make that set again, but offer it to the other side of the coin". In the case of Hundings Rage, base game, gave weapon crit, stamina and weapon damage. Then comes along Wrothgar, they release Julianos with spell crit, magicka, and spell damage.

This cycle went on and on. Stamina had Fury, so magicka got Fury too, etc. Until hybridization, this made perfect sense, but when that released, did they go back and adjust all the redundancies this created in the game.

NOPE.

Now going back to Troll King. HP Regen became a problem shortly after they continually added too many high and free sources of it in a harmful way. Gold food like Sugar Skulls became meta, free HP Regen for nothing and cheap too.

Before update 29, players had been getting tired of fighting DK and Templar vampires that crutched hard on mist form. Both classes have some HP Regen bonuses, both classes are tanky, the disgusting part was HP Regen worked in mist form, despite cutting off mag regen and healing received.

Update 29 comes along, CP 2.0 releases and they nerf mistform to not include HP and Stam regen, but in the same breath they release the CP star "Strategic Reserve" which gives 30 HP Regen per 10 ult, aka up to 1500 HP Regen. With modifiers that's an easy 3k passive heal every 2 seconds. Couple that with other free bonuses, other CP, and you have a constant 5-6k heal running on you 24/7.

So this ongoing argument from the community about HP Regen shifted from mist form to any build because it had become that easy to obtain for sacrificing no item slots. ZOS nerfed battlespirit in update 30. Blanket nerf, did they adjust any source of HP Regen elsewhere in the game?

NOPE.

It's ridiculous to think that they introduced a problem, then instead of fine tuning and fixing the problem, they nerf everything for the same amount and think it's okay. I'm not saying the change to battlespirit was wrong, it makes sense, but why didn't they fine tune every source of it, why was a blanket nerf okay? Why was now the time to do this after they introduced the biggest problem of them all from CP 2.0.

There is a large cost/opportunity for choosing to use a set that relies on heavy HP Regen, you were kind of a fool to run them before the nerf, you're a bigger fool now. There is very little cost to using gold food and over powered CP nodes, which is mainly why it became a problem.

When Troll King was meta, it was a completely different time. For starters, it had a 1500 tooltip until it was nerfed to pre battlespirit to 925. This was also before Mythics, rarely do builds ever have space for a Monster Set now.

Races like Orc gave a high HP Regen modifier, that's gone now.

HP Regen shows intent of being worth a 3:1 ratio when compared to Damage or Resource Regen on complete set bonuses, yet stat bonuses on 1-4 piece items still gives a 1:1 ratio as 129 HP Regen.. See examples like Beekeeper (900) vs Hundings Rage (300). Endurance (618) vs Agility (208).

Squishy classes without decent heal over times that relied on a bit of passive healing from HP Regen like Sorc and NB aren't compensated whatsoever for the loss to battlespirit.

It's a mess. No one wants a HP Regen meta, but at the very least fix what you broke. Compensate what was lost. Make some of these sets competitive again with the knowledge of updated battlespirit.

MashmalloMan · October 2023

Dekrypted wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Dekrypted wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Well, I'm not complaining about health recovery being nerfed. I'm complaining and using Troll King as an example. You can adjust the set to do some sort of a heal similar to Hist Sap/Mara's Balm. The set was originally a single target *healing* set. So health recovery in itself did need adjusted, and they gutted it almost to absolutely nothing.

They can at least give some kind of incentive of wearing Troll King. Rather than it just taking space up in the game and not serving any purpose at all. It's one of those sets that you just can't make work at all.

So in my previous comment, I had mentioned...

Dekrypted wrote: »

While I do agree with the original sentiment of the 1st post, the battle spirit adjustment involving health recovery not only made sense per the healing reduction that already existed at the time, but served as a means of Zenimax actually doing (to a degree) what players have requested which is balancing PvP and PvE separately.

This is why I mentioned sets like Julianos and Hundings which effectively are the same set. Treasure Hunter and Toothrow are effectively the same set. Ever look at Warrior's Fury and Voidcaller? They're the same sets.

I think it's important to understand why these redundancies exist in the first place because it's actually the same reason a set like Troll King has become obsolete.

ZOS makes a blanket change that effects potentially 100s of sets, yet fails to adjust said sets to recoup any ounce of loss made from those adjustments as if that adjustment was perfectly implemented. This statement is both true for Hybridization of sets and the HP Regen battlespirit nerf.

Before hybridization, ZOS designed a set, then that set sat in the game for a few patches before they decided "hey let's make that set again, but offer it to the other side of the coin". In the case of Hundings Rage, base game, gave weapon crit, stamina and weapon damage. Then comes along Wrothgar, they release Julianos with spell crit, magicka, and spell damage.

This cycle went on and on. Stamina had Fury, so magicka got Fury too, etc. Until hybridization, this made perfect sense, but when that released, did they go back and adjust all the redundancies this created in the game.

NOPE.

Now going back to Troll King. HP Regen became a problem shortly after they continually added too many high and free sources of it in a harmful way. Gold food like Sugar Skulls became meta, free HP Regen for nothing and cheap too.

Before update 29, players had been getting tired of fighting DK and Templar vampires that crutched hard on mist form. Both classes have some HP Regen bonuses, both classes are tanky, the disgusting part was HP Regen worked in mist form, despite cutting off mag regen and healing received.

Update 29 comes along, CP 2.0 releases and they nerf mistform to not include HP and Stam regen, but in the same breath they release the CP star "Strategic Reserve" which gives 30 HP Regen per 10 ult, aka up to 1500 HP Regen. With modifiers that's an easy 3k passive heal every 2 seconds. Couple that with other free bonuses, other CP, and you have a constant 5-6k heal running on you 24/7.

So this ongoing argument from the community about HP Regen shifted from mist form to any build because it had become that easy to obtain for sacrificing no item slots. ZOS nerfed battlespirit in update 30. Blanket nerf, did they adjust any source of HP Regen elsewhere in the game?

NOPE.

It's ridiculous to think that they introduced a problem, then instead of fine tuning and fixing the problem, they nerf everything for the same amount and think it's okay. I'm not saying the change to battlespirit was wrong, it makes sense, but why didn't they fine tune every source of it, why was a blanket nerf okay? Why was now the time to do this after they introduced the biggest problem of them all from CP 2.0.

There is a large cost/opportunity for choosing to use a set that relies on heavy HP Regen, you were kind of a fool to run them before the nerf, you're a bigger fool now. There is very little cost to using gold food and over powered CP nodes, which is mainly why it became a problem.

When Troll King was meta, it was a completely different time. For starters, it had a 1500 tooltip until it was nerfed to pre battlespirit to 925. This was also before Mythics, rarely do builds ever have space for a Monster Set now.

Races like Orc gave a high HP Regen modifier, that's gone now.

HP Regen shows intent of being worth a 3:1 ratio when compared to Damage or Resource Regen on complete set bonuses, yet stat bonuses on 1-4 piece items still gives a 1:1 ratio as 129 HP Regen.. See examples like Beekeeper (900) vs Hundings Rage (300). Endurance (618) vs Agility (208).

Squishy classes without decent heal over times that relied on a bit of passive healing from HP Regen like Sorc and NB aren't compensated whatsoever for the loss to battlespirit.

It's a mess. No one wants a HP Regen meta, but at the very least fix what you broke. Compensate what was lost. Make some of these sets competitive again with the knowledge of updated battlespirit.

Alot of what you said really points at alot of glaring issues and oversight. While I agree with the health recovery adjustment that was done and still believe that Troll king at this point should be relegated to PvE, the reactionary changes made need to be more thought out.

We've been told to trust them time and time again, but I'm just not seeing alot of movement on these things. Revertinf the hybridization changes made sadly isnt the way forward, in my opinion, but really finishing the job of it and fine tuning these overlooked areas is a good place to start. There's alot of work to do.

Idk, I always understood hybridization would take a bit of time... but had you asked me 2 years ago, I would say I expected 2-3 updates at most. By the time update 41 comes around, it will have been 8 updates.

That's to say there is still no acknowledgement of this problem whatsoever, no roadmap as to when it will be addressed, they just left the game in this weird middle state for 2 years and expect us to let things "cook".

The optimistic side of me originally excused their lack of follow through with the fact that there is so many stacked systems, so a lot to consider. My mind began to wonder of all the possible outcomes of a future where damage and crit weren't dictated by weapon or spell distinctions. The changes that would be required..

Damage enchants.
Damage mundus stones.
NB/Sorc minor prophecy/savagery.
Templar/DK minor brutality/sorcery.
Potions.
Poisons.

Looks complex right? I thought hey, make 1 of the enchants for penetration or crit chance to introduce some choice again... Then randomly, they add a measily 10 stam/mag regen to enchants in a patch and suddenly they're fixed. Nevermind a complete revamp, that tiny little change was enough for them.

This left me scratching my head.. what exactly are we waiting for then? Why dismiss their incompetence and lack of action for something that is apparently so easy to fix with little impact.

Simple steps:

Combine weapon and spell damage into "power".
Combine weapon and spell crit chance into "crit chance".
Delete Sorcery and Prophecy like how they deleted Ward and Fracture when armor/pen combined.
Give Sorc or NB a new minor buff like minor pen.
Give DK or Templar a new minor buff like minor max resources.
Adjust poison sources of minor sorcery and prophecy to the new minor buffs added.
Keep potions exactly the same, the fact that you get Stam or Mag is enough distinction. Doesn't matter that Brutality and Savagery overlap.
Change The Warrior or Apprentice mundus stone into damage done or.. purely HP Regen, then remove it from Steed and add 1-2% more speed.

In my opinion, they can't even begin to adjust a lot of the redundant sets until these changes are made because it could dictate what type of new sets are possible.

2 years.. is this an indie game in beta or is it a multi million dollar franchise 20+ years old with the game itself being almost 10 years old? I seem to forget sometimes.. actually an indie dev would have much more urgency then this.

Pelanora · October 2023

Amottica wrote: »

With as many sets are in the game it would be impossible to make them all viable. There will always be top performers. It is a futile effort to rebalance all or most sets.

Even then, many sets one person thinks is trash are treasures to another player. We all have different interests.

What is even the point of this comment. This is just trashing OP point without offering anything.

A start could be made, effort could be spent, and a range offered to cater for tastes..... something.