Disabling crown gifting is a bad idea

jaws343

Katheriah wrote: »

That's why I'm not asking for a deadline, but an ETA.

Not a promise, an estimation. A really big difference, and a massive gesture towards the community.

It is important. It's communication. Something they've admitted they have to improve.

Quite literally, maintenance schedules are ETA's and this community loses their mind when they run over the estimated time.

And frankly, the distinction between deadline and ETA is slim and hardly recognized as distinctly different things. The moment Zos puts ANY date or estimate out there into the ether, this community will viciously hold them to that in the most ridiculous ways.

Why would they want to subject themselves to that in this instance. Especially when they likely don't have anything concrete ready to go.

Katheriah

That's quite literally the result of not updating your communicated ETA's and a decade of bad communication towards the playerbase.

If you don't meet your goal, you update the people that are waiting. It's really that easy.

Murderhound

The updated messaging should have been what was communicated in the first place. Explaining the why's goes a long way in developing trust with your player base.

muscle_witch

muscle_witch wrote: »

ETA: Also, these hypothetical people in points 1&2 are not thieves - bad actors, possibly, but they're not thieves

zos_mattfiror wrote: »

a rapidly growing issue of “bad actors” using various fraudulent means

muscle_witch wrote: »

ZOS isn't the only company that has issues with this

muscle_witch wrote: »

Credit card fraud and chargebacks aren't some new issue in the industry that requires months to years of investigation to solve. It's not an issue unique to ESO that no one in the industry can figure out how to deal with. This is something that digital commerce has been fighting for decades, will continue to fight, and has already created a pretty comprehensive set of tools to combat at point of sale.

zos_mattfiror wrote: »

This is not a new problem in online games

muscle_witch wrote: »

Engagement drives engagement - if the people who run guilds aren't happy and decide to stop playing, then the people who sign on every day because they enjoy participating in guild activities stop doing so, and the crown sales from guild contests/giveaways/guildhall construction start to dry up.
If the people who write build guides (many of whom are streamers) aren't happy and stop doing that, then the people who don't have the time or inclination to sift through data and crunch numbers in order to clear content effectively are going to be less engaged once those community resources stop being updated or produced, which means that they're less likely to maintain an ESO+ subscription.

muscle_witch wrote: »

That's the thing though - if the highly invested players are leaving, that's going to stymie the growth of the game in the long run even if there isn't a mass player exodus. You can't just look at the total number of players, you need to consider the players who are propping up the community overall by running guilds, writing guides, leading raids, and farming huge amounts of mats (manually, not with bots). These highly invested players make the game more accessible for the people who can't or don't want to devote hours upon hours to the game by creating a stable community and easily available knowledge, and without them the players who would commit to medium- or low- level regular play aren't going to be incentivized to do so.

muscle_witch wrote: »

Alienating creators associated with the game is a problem, not just because we lose out on the benefit of their work, but because ESO is highly dependent on community knowledge. When the people who write the guides, develop the addons, crunch the numbers for builds, and puzzle out strats decide that the game is no longer worth playing, everyone who engages with the game suffers because all the people who don't have the time or inclination to be that invested benefit from the knowledge and labor that those highly invested people put into the game community.

zos_mattfiror wrote: »

Users of (normal) gifting are among our most passionate, dedicated members of the community

Do I just send an invoice for my consulting fee? I'm not really playing anymore, so unfortunately I don't take payment in Crowns.

Elsonso

Katheriah wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/643289/update-on-current-and-future-status-of-gifting#latest

Thanks for the insight, but why is it so darn difficult to give a timeline?

What does 'working on a solution' mean in this case? Are you brainstorming? Have you figured out what to do and are you building a solution? Because there must be a 'we are aiming for a solution in week X' idea somewhere.

No big tech company in 2023 just wings it with the idea to fix such a big issue 'whenever'.

Just say if we're talking about weeks, months or years.

If you recall, a few months back they tried a fix and determined that it did not fix the problem. So... yeah, could be at the "brainstorming" phase right now, but we can assume they never stopped working on it. More likely, whatever they are doing is an unproven idea and they don't want to say it will be fixed only to have a second "whups, guess not" to announce.

VinnyGambini

Jimbru wrote: »

I still think ESO needs to incorporate an in-game currency exchange, similar to what GW2 and STO have. A place to exchange gold for crowns or vice versa, with a floating exchange rate based on demand. It wouldn't replace the ability to buy crowns, but would give players a better option for obtaining crowns and crown items than what presently exists.

This

Elsonso wrote: »

Katheriah wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/643289/update-on-current-and-future-status-of-gifting#latest

Thanks for the insight, but why is it so darn difficult to give a timeline?

What does 'working on a solution' mean in this case? Are you brainstorming? Have you figured out what to do and are you building a solution? Because there must be a 'we are aiming for a solution in week X' idea somewhere.

No big tech company in 2023 just wings it with the idea to fix such a big issue 'whenever'.

Just say if we're talking about weeks, months or years.

If you recall, a few months back they tried a fix and determined that it did not fix the problem. So... yeah, could be at the "brainstorming" phase right now, but we can assume they never stopped working on it. More likely, whatever they are doing is an unproven idea and they don't want to say it will be fixed only to have a second "whups, guess not" to announce.

[snip]
[edited for bashing]

Aislinna

[snip]

They provided the requested update less then 24 hours ago, and that's not good enough for some.

[edited for minor baiting]

WiseSky

Well with @ZOS_MattFiror saying something about it... it seams it should one day.. come back.

Hope it's before TES6

FantasticFreddie

Eso players when Zos doesn't take action against bots/fraud:

Eso players when Zos DOES take action against bots/fraud:

NeuroticPixels

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Eso players when Zos doesn't take action aclgainst bots/fraud:

Eso players when Zos DOES take action against bots/fraud:

It’s the way they go about doing things. Also, they have a history of implementing changes no one asked for and/or dislike.

Edit: And they usually don’t communicate why exactly they changed something (or in this case, when the function will be returning and how it’ll be changed), leaving players aggravated and confused.

muscle_witch

NeuroticPixels wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Eso players when Zos doesn't take action aclgainst bots/fraud:

Eso players when Zos DOES take action against bots/fraud:

It’s the way they go about doing things. Also, they have a history of implementing changes no one asked for and/or dislike.

Edit: And they usually don’t communicate why exactly they changed something (or in this case, when the function will be returning and how it’ll be changed), leaving players aggravated and confused.

To add to this, the part where they turned off gifting overnight without warning, apparently didn't realize that people would have gifts stuck in limbo as a result, when people were upset about their gifts being in limbo they told us to submit tickets to CS, when people were getting flatly refused by CS they said nothing for two weeks, after two weeks they said that they would tell CS to actually help the people who were submitting tickets, then an hour later they came back and said that CS would not be helping anyone with this issue, and now there are people who have gifts that they paid actual money for that they can't send or return stuck in their inventories indefinitely while ZOS apologizes for the confusion but otherwise does nothing.

Wuduwasa13

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

wilykcat wrote: »

Sometimes investigations and temporarily disabling stuff does take longer. Not everything in life happens quickly and instantly.

Just wanted to build on this point. We are working on building solutions that protect everyone when gifting crown store items. Investigating solutions and building those out does take time. We understand this is not deal. It isn't ideal for anyone not engaging in fraudulent behavior. It isn't ideal for us. However, we want to stress this is temporary as we are working out the best path forward. We don't know how long this will take, but we are working to resolve this as soon as we can.

Just add a verification threshold to gifting and be done with all the bother.

If an account is active for X months or more, enable gifting.

In the short term you can manage it manually via your tier 1 teams or establish a temporary dedicated team who will endeavour to process verification requests within a certain window of time, until you can automate the process.

FantasticFreddie

Wuduwasa13 wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

wilykcat wrote: »

Sometimes investigations and temporarily disabling stuff does take longer. Not everything in life happens quickly and instantly.

Just wanted to build on this point. We are working on building solutions that protect everyone when gifting crown store items. Investigating solutions and building those out does take time. We understand this is not deal. It isn't ideal for anyone not engaging in fraudulent behavior. It isn't ideal for us. However, we want to stress this is temporary as we are working out the best path forward. We don't know how long this will take, but we are working to resolve this as soon as we can.

Just add a verification threshold to gifting and be done with all the bother.

If an account is active for X months or more, enable gifting.

In the short term you can manage it manually via your tier 1 teams or establish a temporary dedicated team who will endeavour to process verification requests within a certain window of time, until you can automate the process.

They already have this tho. Your account has to be active for 30 days, and you either need to have at least 1 month of ESO+, OR purchase crowns outright to be able to gift. Clearly, it didn't prevent the issues they were having.

NeuroticPixels

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

They already have this tho. Your account has to be active for 30 days, and you either need to have at least 1 month of ESO+, OR purchase crowns outright to be able to gift. Clearly, it didn't prevent the issues they were having.

Indeed. Can confirm the wait period is still there. My wife made a new account a few months ago, and we had forgotten about the 30 day wait period. She ended up missing out on things she wanted from the crown store. (And now she doesn’t even play anymore, so… *sigh*… I strongly suggest second guessing your crown store purchases if you’re paying with RL money. lol)

Jofish

The gift is sent COD; the "gifter" enters the amount of gold agreed upon; Double check before sending; the COD fee is waived; The receiver has a limited amount of time to collect it. If not collected within that time the transaction is cancelled, Crowns are applied back to givers account; the item goes "back on the crown store shelf".

Jofish

So, going through this long thread I see that the problem is not gifting, but people somehow illicitly gaining in game gold?

Elsonso

Jofish wrote: »

So, going through this long thread I see that the problem is not gifting, but people somehow illicitly gaining in game gold?

No. According to Firor, the goal is cash, not gold.

"...a rapidly growing issue of 'bad actors' using various fraudulent means to amass crowns without paying for them, then using them in turn to sell Crown Store items to players for cash."

To me, that means that the problem is not the gifting. The gifting is just the means to complete the transaction in-game.

spartaxoxo

Elsonso wrote: »

Jofish wrote: »

So, going through this long thread I see that the problem is not gifting, but people somehow illicitly gaining in game gold?

No. According to Firor, the goal is cash, not gold.

"...a rapidly growing issue of 'bad actors' using various fraudulent means to amass crowns without paying for them, then using them in turn to sell Crown Store items to players for cash."

To me, that means that the problem is not the gifting. The gifting is just the means to complete the transaction in-game.

That's my takeaway as well. It sounds like those 3rd party sites that were getting spammed by bots in zone chat were also somehow using crown crate gifting to me.

Wolfkeks

Elsonso wrote: »

Jofish wrote: »

So, going through this long thread I see that the problem is not gifting, but people somehow illicitly gaining in game gold?

No. According to Firor, the goal is cash, not gold.

"...a rapidly growing issue of 'bad actors' using various fraudulent means to amass crowns without paying for them, then using them in turn to sell Crown Store items to players for cash."

To me, that means that the problem is not the gifting. The gifting is just the means to complete the transaction in-game.

That's what I got from the post too. The problem is not gold but real life money.

Lazy_Voyager

muscle_witch wrote: »

[To add to this, the part where they turned off gifting overnight without warning, apparently didn't realize that people would have gifts stuck in limbo as a result, when people were upset about their gifts being in limbo they told us to submit tickets to CS, when people were getting flatly refused by CS they said nothing for two weeks, after two weeks they said that they would tell CS to actually help the people who were submitting tickets, then an hour later they came back and said that CS would not be helping anyone with this issue, and now there are people who have gifts that they paid actual money for that they can't send or return stuck in their inventories indefinitely while ZOS apologizes for the confusion but otherwise does nothing.

The forum really should have a 'user was given a record/banned for this post' feature of certain other websites. Because good lord getting yeeted from the forum (and the game) over 'minor bashing' is certainly a look.

loveeso

Katheriah wrote: »

Big tech companies do it all the time. I'm asking for an ETA, not a deadline.

It's not even that difficult, I'll throw in one* in the casual style of the patch notes:

"Hey guys! We just want to give you a quick update. At this moment we are working on a fix that will benefit all parties, except for the people that were abusing the system, obviously! Hopefully next week you can test this solution on our Public Test Server and we're aiming to go live at the end of the next month. If this ETA changes, we will make sure to update you with the new expectation.

We realize the process so far has been less than satisfying. That's why we want to thank you all for your ongoing patience and support by giving a 20% discount on your first use of the new gifting system on the live servers. So it's time to start thinking about what to gift to your friends!"

*PardonmyFrench, not a native speaker.

Awesome. That’s how it should be done.

Fightin_Irish_Johnny

I was reading another thread but it was ended by the Dev's. It said click here to continue because we are closing this thread based on the fact there is another one like it. But clicking his link goes nowhere 0.o. So I found this thread and wanted to comment regarding the whole theory that they stopped because players were trading items for gold.

I remember a while back like couple years ago. There was a website that was highly advertised, actually a couple of them if I recall that had a system for people to become sellers of ESO crowns and players could use there system to get sales leads for players looking to purchase crown store items for gold. They would meet players in game and trade items for gold and a cut of the sales price would go to the site and the player selling would get their agreed portion.

I read their rules and they said they actually used Dev's to report when someone would pull a scam. And that the Dev's actually would intervene and take action when scams happened.

I guess I am wondering if that is actually true ? If so It would seem at some point they were fully aware of these types of transaction going on and didn't take issue. And actually helped support the system set up for those transactions. At least at that time if this is all true. Not sure if that was reality or if they just said that to help prevent or scare scammers away.

Olen_Mikko

Well, they screwed up the economy in this game and now they lose money, so it is a damage control

SilverBride

This has never been about players gifting crown store items in exchange for gold, or players being scammed by others when making these transactions.

This is real life fraud, where players are amassing crowns without paying for them, then using them to sell Crown Store items for real life cash.

This is a serious matter and they are right to do what they need to stop it.

Amottica

LesserCircle wrote: »

It's Joever guys, they are not going to implement this back in and with all possible customization options being locked into the crown store many people will leave the game.

I guess I am to old to know what Joever is, but I expect that some players will leave. However, most will remain as the game does not revolve around the crown store.

Also, Zenimax realizes they have a loss in revenue. The extra crowns sold for the purpose of gifting/selling are lost. They take this issue much more seriously than any player does.

VinnyGambini

Amottica wrote: »

LesserCircle wrote: »

It's Joever guys, they are not going to implement this back in and with all possible customization options being locked into the crown store many people will leave the game.

I guess I am to old to know what Joever is, but I expect that some players will leave. However, most will remain as the game does not revolve around the crown store.

Also, Zenimax realizes they have a loss in revenue. The extra crowns sold for the purpose of gifting/selling are lost. They take this issue much more seriously than any player does.

You sure?

Month has passed. There were 2 posts: "forseeable future" and "soon". No actions.

[snip]
[edited for bashing]

Aislinna

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

LesserCircle wrote: »

It's Joever guys, they are not going to implement this back in and with all possible customization options being locked into the crown store many people will leave the game.

I guess I am to old to know what Joever is, but I expect that some players will leave. However, most will remain as the game does not revolve around the crown store.

Also, Zenimax realizes they have a loss in revenue. The extra crowns sold for the purpose of gifting/selling are lost. They take this issue much more seriously than any player does.

You sure?

Month has passed. There were 2 posts: "forseeable future" and "soon". No actions.

[snip]
[edited for bashing]

How often do you need ZOS to post "We are working on the issue and will let you know when we have something new to share."?

spartaxoxo

Fightin_Irish_Johnny wrote: »

I remember a while back like couple years ago. There was a website that was highly advertised, actually a couple of them if I recall that had a system for people to become sellers of ESO crowns and players could use there system to get sales leads for players looking to purchase crown store items for gold. They would meet players in game and trade items for gold and a cut of the sales price would go to the site and the player selling would get their agreed portion.

That was legit. It wasn't crowns for coin that was the problem, it was some place where they trading crowns for real money somehow.

SimonThesis

Aislinna wrote: »

How often do you need ZOS to post "We are working on the issue and will let you know when we have something new to share."?

Squeaky wheels tend to get fixed. The problem is months/years could go by without them having anything new to share. There are plenty of long standing issues the Devs have promised to keep us updated on and yet they all seem to have been forgotten.

jle30303

Make crowns tradable between players for coin. At a capped value, above which it is not just illegal but impossible to make the exchange. Like, literally make them a purchasable item on guild traders, you can put them up for sale and any person can buy them, like they were a weapon or a pile of fish bait or whatever.

Presto, you get rid of all the problems with players actually trading crowns for coin (or real money for in-game gold, since they can now buy crowns from Zenimax with real money and sell those crowns in-game for gold), and reduce the problem to the question of how the crowns are actually generated in the first place.

If the crowns are generated by means of fraud - stolen credit cards, chargebacks, etc... Then the people who sold the crowns for gold, lose their accounts, and the gold on them. They cannot sell that gold for real money.

If people generated the crowns by means of a legitimate donation - they now have a legitimate way to exchange those crowns for gold, if what they want is gold rather than crown-purchasable items. You want to pay money and get in-game gold? That's how you do it from now on, buy crowns and sell them in the in-game market. And the people who purchase the crowns can get crown-purchasable items with the crowns they bought.

If that legitimate donation is made at a cheap value due to the vagaries of currency exchange and them being cheaper in one currency than another... then that's Zenimax's problem to sort out with their pricing policy. Each purchase of crowns is still legitimate.