Too much negativity in the forums.

Freilauftomate · September 2023

[snip] This is part of the reason why customers are unhappy with this company and nobody really wants to be active in this forum anymore.

[edited for baiting/discussing moderator actions]

SCP343 · September 2023

If they do something bad they get bad feedback.
If they do something good they get good feedback.
Bad feedback does not mean toxic feedback. XD

LeeLooWasHere · September 2023

I am actually glad that gamers are slowly opening up about ESO reality

I think many of us were actually holding back (see streamers leaving ESO and finally speaking up their mind). I do not want my friends to come back to ESO (if they ask me if they should), because I do care about them. I am happy they are addiction free and spend their time on doing something else:) I would not like to start playing the game based on false reviews or lure others to the game which current state is not great. So it is great when people are honest. But I also feel for ZOS - (the part working on ESO). Maybe they don't know better at this point

It is always good to give the benefit of the doubt.

Tandor · September 2023

Freilauftomate wrote: »

[snip]

Does that explain the predominance of strongly negative and critical threads then?

If you were right, I'd expect to see only glowing praise in the threads that remain up. Where are they?

[edited to remove quote]

muscle_witch · September 2023

Tandor wrote: »

Freilauftomate wrote: »

[snip]

Does that explain the predominance of strongly negative and critical threads then?

If you were right, I'd expect to see only glowing praise in the threads that remain up. Where are they?

Unfortunately, all of the examples and counterarguments that I would have against this are against forum rules to post.

[edited to remove quote]

Muizer · September 2023

Personally I think there is little time for devs to 'listen to the players'. I think they're on a tight year round schedule in which there's simply no way to justify looking back and fixing issues introduced in the past.

I suspect this year's 'quality of life' update is a rare concession by those making that schedule to address some of those issues. But this too is probably on a tight schedule.

In all this year long dev cycle means the company is essentially incapable of responding to player requests.

KlauthWarthog · September 2023

Narrator voice: Little did they know, the actual changes were way worse than they could expect...

TaSheen · September 2023

I'm generally a "glass half full" person. But I do think the "rose colored glasses" should be off....

Daoin · September 2023

the thing is this, i take the shots of how often it happen ingame but they are so i can keep them myself and in check about the difference between forum and game but considering we cannot use the screenshots on forum or sending a ticket leads to a slap on the hand and there are simply so many in the game that are toxic but considered gamegods in the forum and are nice until something is not done thier way and its time to get toxic, but mostly by just writing here the AOP'S of the forum will find a way to funnel any argument down into thier favour together anyway

Tandor wrote: »

Freilauftomate wrote: »

[snip]

Does that explain the predominance of strongly negative and critical threads then?

If you were right, I'd expect to see only glowing praise in the threads that remain up. Where are they?

removed for baiting likely

[edited to remove quote]

LeeLooWasHere · September 2023

Tandor wrote: »

Freilauftomate wrote: »

[snip]

Does that explain the predominance of strongly negative and critical threads then?

If you were right, I'd expect to see only glowing praise in the threads that remain up. Where are they?

They are, wherever you go daaa

You asked!

[edited to remove quote]

MetallicMonk · September 2023

Personally I don't see enough negativity, very lacking if I do say so.

loveeso · September 2023

muscle_witch wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Freilauftomate wrote: »

[snip]

Does that explain the predominance of strongly negative and critical threads then?

If you were right, I'd expect to see only glowing praise in the threads that remain up. Where are they?

Unfortunately, all of the examples and counterarguments that I would have against this are against forum rules to post.

Indeed

[edited to remove quote]

muscle_witch · September 2023

Muizer wrote: »

Personally I think there is little time for devs to 'listen to the players'. I think they're on a tight year round schedule in which there's simply no way to justify looking back and fixing issues introduced in the past.

I suspect this year's 'quality of life' update is a rare concession by those making that schedule to address some of those issues. But this too is probably on a tight schedule.

In all this year long dev cycle means the company is essentially incapable of responding to player requests.

Then that's a problem that they created for themselves. If a company manages its production and staffing such that it is fundamentally incapable of incorporating consumer feedback into its production model, that's on them and it doesn't mean that we're unreasonable for asking for fixes, features, or communication.

SilverBride · September 2023

Giving negative feedback and asking for changes is fine, because this lets them know what some players aren't happy with and what they would like to see.

What isn't fine is bashing and accusing the people that work for this game of not caring about the playerbase and being incompetent. That is never acceptable.

muscle_witch · September 2023

SilverBride wrote: »

Giving negative feedback and asking for changes is fine, because this lets them know what some players aren't happy with and what they would like to see.

What isn't fine is bashing and accusing the people that work for this game of not caring about the playerbase, and being incompetent. That is never acceptable.

1. I agree, bashing isn't acceptable - that's why it's against the forum code of conduct. If you see someone who's engaging in bashing, feel free to report their post. If you're doing that, you shouldn't actually be seeing much bashing at all because the forum mod team is highly responsive to code of conduct violations.
2. I believe that most people have been focusing their criticism towards the company as a whole, and I think that mismanagement and deprioritization of the playerbase are valid things to critique.

I've seen you complaining about bashing in several threads: if you mouse over the lower right corner of any given post or comment, a little line of icons will show up and the leftmost one is a sheet of paper with an exclamation point next to the word "flag". Clicking on this will bring up a little tooltip with the same icon and the word "Report", clicking on that will allow you to report posts that are in violation of the forum code of conduct (including posts that are "bashing") to the moderators, who will review it and respond accordingly. At this point it does get a little bit confusing, since the options in the report menu don't map directly with the forum code of conduct, and "bashing" isn't one of the options you can select; personally I would recommend choosing from either "Harrassment/Bullying" or "Hate Speech", depending on which one fits the comment better, but I'm sure that if you were to ask any of the forum mods or send in a ticket to Customer Support, they could offer clarification better than I could.

Muizer · September 2023

muscle_witch wrote: »

If a company manages its production and staffing such that it is fundamentally incapable of incorporating consumer feedback into its production model, that's on them and it doesn't mean that we're unreasonable for asking for fixes, features, or communication.

Ah i just think it's better not to look at ZoS as a monolith. I suspect a large majority of the creative people (devs, artists, team leads) want to do work they can be proud of. These are not people who voluntarily ask themselves with everything they (want to) do whether it's going to contribute to the bottom line. That's what managers do.

The only real influence we have as a community is that ultimately managers depend on that first group for creative input and execution. It's not much leverage though, once the bottom line comes under pressure. Cost cutting is always right around the corner and usually the short term prevails.

If as a community we want to contribute to a better product, then the last thing we should do is come down like a ton of bricks on changes and tweaks that were made for no obviously immediate profit. Because to do so will just give managers ammo to say to the people who work on those things: how do you justify your salaries?

And yes, I suppose this would benefit from better communication, and that is a two-way street.

virtus753 · September 2023

muscle_witch wrote: »

personally I would recommend choosing from either "Harrassment/Bullying" or "Hate Speech", depending on which one fits the comment better, but I'm sure that if you were to ask any of the forum mods or send in a ticket to Customer Support, they could offer clarification better than I could.

Hate speech is an established and particular thing. It covers comments made with prejudice against particular classes of people, like homophobia, transphobia, misogyny, racism, etc.

Negative feelings towards a company based on experience with their products or services is not the same as prejudice against a class. If someone bashes a ZOS employee on the basis of membership (real or perceived) in one or more established classes, like LGBTQ+, gender, race/ethnicity, etc., that’s hate speech. But bashing ZOS due to issues with their handling of the game is not the same. Not acceptable on the forums either, but not the same.

muscle_witch · September 2023

virtus753 wrote: »

muscle_witch wrote: »

personally I would recommend choosing from either "Harrassment/Bullying" or "Hate Speech", depending on which one fits the comment better, but I'm sure that if you were to ask any of the forum mods or send in a ticket to Customer Support, they could offer clarification better than I could.

Hate speech is an established and particular thing. It covers comments made with prejudice against particular classes of people, like homophobia, transphobia, misogyny, racism, etc.

Negative feelings towards a company based on experience with their products or services is not the same as prejudice against a class. If someone bashes a ZOS employee on the basis of membership (real or perceived) in one or more established classes, like LGBTQ+, gender, race/ethnicity, etc., that’s hate speech. But bashing ZOS due to issues with their handling of the game is not the same. Not acceptable on the forums either, but not the same.

I mostly included that because it's possible for bashing on a specific issue and hate speech to overlap in a way that would make the option relevant, I'm of course not going to include any examples, but I have seen instances where that is the case.

I_killed_Vivec · September 2023

muscle_witch wrote: »

2. I believe that most people have been focusing their criticism towards the company as a whole, and I think that mismanagement and deprioritization of the playerbase are valid things to critique.

One thing we know absolutely about ZOS/Bethesda/Microsoft... they want to make money.

In terms of this game they make money by encouraging enough p[layers to buy it, to subscribe to ESO+, to continue to buy chapters, and to pony up via the game store. There is literally no other way they make money out of the game.

"Deprioritization of the playerbase", in ZoS's terms is meaningless. Just what do you mean by "playerbase"? Maybe you mean you, maybe it's you and your mates or guildies, maybe it's you and a few people on the forum. Maybe a couple of streamers (who the majority of "Skyrim online" players have never heard of or care about).

But for ZoS, the only playerbase of relevance is those who play the bills.

We do not have the statistics, we do not know the numbers. But ZoS does. So they are (presumably) tailoring the game to those who actually pay for it.

And to a certain extent (they don't want to be blatant about it because of the optics) if you don't like that then secretly I imagine they'd be happy to see you go - you aren't paying your way and you're taking up valuable server space.

muscle_witch · September 2023

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

muscle_witch wrote: »

2. I believe that most people have been focusing their criticism towards the company as a whole, and I think that mismanagement and deprioritization of the playerbase are valid things to critique.

One thing we know absolutely about ZOS/Bethesda/Microsoft... they want to make money.

In terms of this game they make money by encouraging enough p[layers to buy it, to subscribe to ESO+, to continue to buy chapters, and to pony up via the game store. There is literally no other way they make money out of the game.

"Deprioritization of the playerbase", in ZoS's terms is meaningless. Just what do you mean by "playerbase"? Maybe you mean you, maybe it's you and your mates or guildies, maybe it's you and a few people on the forum. Maybe a couple of streamers (who the majority of "Skyrim online" players have never heard of or care about).

But for ZoS, the only playerbase of relevance is those who play the bills.

We do not have the statistics, we do not know the numbers. But ZoS does. So they are (presumably) tailoring the game to those who actually pay for it.

And to a certain extent (they don't want to be blatant about it because of the optics) if you don't like that then secretly I imagine they'd be happy to see you go - you aren't paying your way and you're taking up valuable server space.

By playerbase, I meant "the people who care about the game and play it".

The people who spend large amounts of money on the game are not the only players of relevance. The profitability of an MMO does depend on players spending money, yes, but there are ways to contribute to the overall health of the game that don't involve a credit card number. If any company is happy to see players who don't, for example, buy crowns regularly or subscribe to ESO+, stop playing, then that's a shortsighted and unsustainable approach to community management.

Engagement drives engagement - if the people who run guilds aren't happy and decide to stop playing, then the people who sign on every day because they enjoy participating in guild activities stop doing so, and the crown sales from guild contests/giveaways/guildhall construction start to dry up.
If the people who write build guides (many of whom are streamers) aren't happy and stop doing that, then the people who don't have the time or inclination to sift through data and crunch numbers in order to clear content effectively are going to be less engaged once those community resources stop being updated or produced, which means that they're less likely to maintain an ESO+ subscription.

When I say "deprioritization of the playerbase" I'm talking about decisions that may not cut into profits in the short term, but that potentially affect the health of the player community (and by extension the game) long term.

Wuduwasa13 · September 2023

What do you mean by ‘nice’? What is that? Generous? Pleasant? Patient? Jovial? Loquacious?

The ‘negativity’ that you seemingly take issue with is the very valid reactions & opinions of other players according to their experience.

So unless you have come here to complain that other people aren’t expressing the same opinions based on your experience, I’m not quite sure what the point of this thread is,or if there even is one other than for you yourself to complain and be negative about others?

Jaraal · September 2023

Wuduwasa13 wrote: »

What do you mean by ‘nice’? What is that? Generous? Pleasant? Patient? Jovial? Loquacious?

The ‘negativity’ that you seemingly take issue with is the very valid reactions & opinions of other players according to their experience.

So unless you have come here to complain that other people aren’t expressing the same opinions based on your experience, I’m not quite sure what the point of this thread is,or if there even is one other than for you yourself to complain and be negative about others?

"There 's too much negativity in the forums."

"There's not enough positivity in the forums."

Which of these statements is based on negativity?

Elsonso · September 2023

.

Jaraal wrote: »

Wuduwasa13 wrote: »

What do you mean by ‘nice’? What is that? Generous? Pleasant? Patient? Jovial? Loquacious?

The ‘negativity’ that you seemingly take issue with is the very valid reactions & opinions of other players according to their experience.

So unless you have come here to complain that other people aren’t expressing the same opinions based on your experience, I’m not quite sure what the point of this thread is,or if there even is one other than for you yourself to complain and be negative about others?

"There 's too much negativity in the forums."

"There's not enough positivity in the forums."

Which of these statements is based on negativity?

Both.

aru · September 2023

It might not be a bad thing entirely. At least people bother to complain. It shows they care and don't want to simply abandon it.

blktauna · September 2023

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

blktauna wrote: »

Brother you are absolving ZOS of their responsibilities.

A working product makes for customers who are too busy playing to spend time complaining on a forum.

Define "working product." Is that a product with no bugs (which we all want), or a product that contains only the stuff that we want and none of the stuff that we don't want-- because there are too many conflicting opinions to ever have that.

And no, I'm not "absolving ZOS of their responsibilities." They're still responsible for the game, and I still expect and hope that they'll be able to expand it, improve it, and fix it.

I just think it's supremely unhelpful and toxic for players to ceaselessly bash on ZOS, the devs, and the game.

Now if you don't mind, I'm going to go back to ignoring this thread and playing the game.

Pointing out that my skills are no longer working in overland as well as in cyrodil is not bashing. And yes working product ahould be that skills should work more than 70% of the time at worst and in most nights I'm playing thats not the case. And that's the simplest measure of getting the product I'm paying for that I can name.

Morgaledh · September 2023

What you have to remember is that the *vast* majority of players never come to the forums. I'm almost never here unless there's a server problem (negative, see?) or something in game that is broken and needs attention that the reporting system isn't best suited for (again, negative). I was in the game for years before I ever even joined the forums.

Game forums are always like this. I remember the WoW forums when new expansions would come out - everyone hated everything (hated Burning Crusade, hated Wrath of the Lich King, imagine!) Except they didn't. Or lots did, but most were too busy playing the game, broken or otherwise.

Lots of stuff in this game is legitimately wrecked, bugs haven't been fixed, new things keep breaking. But the game community you want to find is out there, in the game. Is is not, and never will be, here on the forums.