Ramping Cost for Nightblade Cloak

emilyhyoyeon · July 2023

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

infunite wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Another “I want a change in pvp, I don’t care how it effects pve” thread.

How do people use shadowy disguise in pve?

Seriously? PvE players have at least some understanding of PvP issues, is it so hard to at least try to understand that eso also has a PvE element to it as well?

You really don’t understand the circumstances that cloak is used in PvE?

•••

Anyone doing any sort of criminal activity (pve) knows the benefits of cloak. And before you say something like “that’s just a small part of the game” please understand there were two dlcs that were “criminal activity” based.

There are also guards and npc residences that can be broken into.

So, yes, it’s used in pve.

In fact, since we all see the dwindling intrest in pvp, I would say more players use cloak in pve than pvp.

All this has done is point out the disparity in trying to complete Heists and Dark Brotherhood Contracts as any class other than Nightblade.

Maybe all classes should have access to a spammable invisibility to completely coin the crime system like Nightblade.

My thief character is a templar and I've never had issues not having access to cloak. I've never used cloak on my Dark Brotherhood NB character either. Detectable radius reducing gear sets/CP are 100x more important.

It's not like I want to take away options from people if they do prefer cloak when they do that content, but, mechanically, it's not an issue.

NyassaV · July 2023

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Said it once I'll say it again:
If you use streak 4+ times in a row, you will most likely get away from a fight.

No, you don't. Even if you do, you've just spent 20k worth of magicka for maybe 8-9 seconds of breathing room, then whoever was chasing you will be right up your arse, like me in this video:

https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg

He streaked 3x in a row, and I caught up to him in 7 seconds. Make it 9 seconds if he streaked 4 times. He probably wasted 15k mag right there. I wasted 2k stam from sprinting. I wasn't even in 3x swift, nor should I have refreshed Hurricane that early, but the point is I wasted much less resources than he did.

The argument that Streaking multiple times in a row allows you to get away is outdated. You could in the past. You can't in the present.

And neither does cloak. With these new detect pots in counters all nbs in the area. They are constantly up. There is no pot that counters all sorcs in the area is there?

Trying to get away while being detected burns all our resources too.

You still don't get it do you?

Wasting 45s of sustain from Tri pot, Spell/Weapon Crit pot, or even Armor pot for 15s of detect is a HUGE sacrifice compared to say, using 3x Swift and Celerity CP.

You clearly don't play other classes or Sorc. If you did, you would know how easy it is to counter Streak and how difficult it is to counter Cloak without making major sacrifices.

You still need to make sacrifices to to counter streak technically. If you aren't using swift jewelry or celerity CP (Which sacrifices dmg and sacrifices survivability) then you'll struggle to catch up to a sorc after they streak. Sorc actually has a few decent soft counters to cloak with hurricane constantly pulling them out of stealth when nearby and curse going off all the time even when a Nightblade is in cloak.

To talk about curse some more, it can hit for more than 3k, and when cloaked you can't cast any healing or you expose yourself. So curse goes off and you recloak so you don't get zerged down and you are forced to eat that damage. Even if you pop vigor before going back into cloak, that extra GCD you are out of cloak is just enough time for a sorc to recast curse, and streak up to you because now they saw where you are.

Cloak is annoying, especially when people crutch on it. And when it is not countered properly then yeah, it's pretty powerful. But one must still make sacrifices to counter streak, same with cloak. Making these choices is a large part of theory crafting. Next patch I am choosing to still use camo hunter for the damage, despite the fact I could use a stun or something else, because I am making that sacrifice so that I can counter cloak (and yeah, do a little more dmg).

There are plenty of things to complain about with sorc, such as limited bar space. But complaining about cloak isn't really getting anyone anywhere. And if we are going to complain about nightblade, lets ask for minor expedition to be removed, cuz that was always a sorc thing.

Alchimiste1 · July 2023

I just want to throw this out there but if you are using cloak correctly and playing well I doubt you’ll really feel a ramp up cost increase on it.

Even if cloak got a ramp up cost increase on it, it would still be an overall buff to nb by a wide margin. It’s crazy how many nbs have been conditioned to crutch on cloak.

Alchimiste1 · July 2023

NyassaV wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Said it once I'll say it again:
If you use streak 4+ times in a row, you will most likely get away from a fight.

No, you don't. Even if you do, you've just spent 20k worth of magicka for maybe 8-9 seconds of breathing room, then whoever was chasing you will be right up your arse, like me in this video:

https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg

He streaked 3x in a row, and I caught up to him in 7 seconds. Make it 9 seconds if he streaked 4 times. He probably wasted 15k mag right there. I wasted 2k stam from sprinting. I wasn't even in 3x swift, nor should I have refreshed Hurricane that early, but the point is I wasted much less resources than he did.

The argument that Streaking multiple times in a row allows you to get away is outdated. You could in the past. You can't in the present.

And neither does cloak. With these new detect pots in counters all nbs in the area. They are constantly up. There is no pot that counters all sorcs in the area is there?

Trying to get away while being detected burns all our resources too.

You still don't get it do you?

Wasting 45s of sustain from Tri pot, Spell/Weapon Crit pot, or even Armor pot for 15s of detect is a HUGE sacrifice compared to say, using 3x Swift and Celerity CP.

You clearly don't play other classes or Sorc. If you did, you would know how easy it is to counter Streak and how difficult it is to counter Cloak without making major sacrifices.

You still need to make sacrifices to to counter streak technically. If you aren't using swift jewelry or celerity CP (Which sacrifices dmg and sacrifices survivability) then you'll struggle to catch up to a sorc after they streak. Sorc actually has a few decent soft counters to cloak with hurricane constantly pulling them out of stealth when nearby and curse going off all the time even when a Nightblade is in cloak.

To talk about curse some more, it can hit for more than 3k, and when cloaked you can't cast any healing or you expose yourself. So curse goes off and you recloak so you don't get zerged down and you are forced to eat that damage. Even if you pop vigor before going back into cloak, that extra GCD you are out of cloak is just enough time for a sorc to recast curse, and streak up to you because now they saw where you are.

Cloak is annoying, especially when people crutch on it. And when it is not countered properly then yeah, it's pretty powerful. But one must still make sacrifices to counter streak, same with cloak. Making these choices is a large part of theory crafting. Next patch I am choosing to still use camo hunter for the damage, despite the fact I could use a stun or something else, because I am making that sacrifice so that I can counter cloak (and yeah, do a little more dmg).

There are plenty of things to complain about with sorc, such as limited bar space. But complaining about cloak isn't really getting anyone anywhere. And if we are going to complain about nightblade, lets ask for minor expedition to be removed, cuz that was always a sorc thing.

inb4 this person changes their mind and drops camo for cloak

StaticWave · July 2023

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Said it once I'll say it again:
If you use streak 4+ times in a row, you will most likely get away from a fight.

No, you don't. Even if you do, you've just spent 20k worth of magicka for maybe 8-9 seconds of breathing room, then whoever was chasing you will be right up your arse, like me in this video:

https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg

He streaked 3x in a row, and I caught up to him in 7 seconds. Make it 9 seconds if he streaked 4 times. He probably wasted 15k mag right there. I wasted 2k stam from sprinting. I wasn't even in 3x swift, nor should I have refreshed Hurricane that early, but the point is I wasted much less resources than he did.

The argument that Streaking multiple times in a row allows you to get away is outdated. You could in the past. You can't in the present.

And neither does cloak. With these new detect pots in counters all nbs in the area. They are constantly up. There is no pot that counters all sorcs in the area is there?

Trying to get away while being detected burns all our resources too.

You still don't get it do you?

Wasting 45s of sustain from Tri pot, Spell/Weapon Crit pot, or even Armor pot for 15s of detect is a HUGE sacrifice compared to say, using 3x Swift and Celerity CP.

You clearly don't play other classes or Sorc. If you did, you would know how easy it is to counter Streak and how difficult it is to counter Cloak without making major sacrifices.

No. You still don't get it. Its a I win button against most nightblades. There is no comparison to others. Give me a pot that renders your class useless.
Again, I have played since launch. I have 18 toons.
Giving up three traits and a CP is a huge sacrifice and it doesn't guarantee a kill. A pot does almost guarantee a kill.

But there is nothing stopping NBs from building tanky and using Cloak, so how can that be an I-win button? Unless you’re telling me killing a NB with 30k armor and 3.4k crit resist is easy?

StaticWave · July 2023

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

relog wrote: »

Shadowy Disguise is not any close to mechanic of streak and mist form. Besides game give you many ways to counter it. Its like adding ramping cost to any other skill, that you dont like such as Elemental Susceptibility (still 0 cost lol), Vigor etc.

And only 1 of them is actually reliable enough to be used, which is Detect Potions, which just recently got buffed. Even then, you are wasting 45s of better potions like Tripots or Armor pots, or an entire skill slot that has no use out side of countering 1 class that so happens to be obnoxiously common in Cyrodiil PvP

Meanwhile, Streak and Mist Form are easily countered by slotting a gap closer, which also has multiple uses outside of countering Streak and Mist users (for example, Rushing Agony with Stampede is widely used to bomb zergs). Heck, even sprinting is sufficient to counter a Streak/Mist user. I mean just look at this video where I chased down a magsorc with just sprinting.

https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg

Not true. You are not wasting 45 seconds. The new buff to pots is awful. If you can't kill the nb when you reveal them then that's on bad players.

Asking for yet another nerf to cloak is absurd.

Most nbs hiding in stealth and using cloak are squishy like glass. [snip]

Nobody's saying anything about not being able to kill squishy NBs. Don't use a strawman argument against me dude.

My argument is the counters for Streak/Mist are more effective and require less sacrifice than the counters for Cloak. Movement speed is abundant and easy to get without sacrificing a lot, and gap closer is useful for all scenarios, not just against Streak. Meanwhile, a detect potion is only useful against NB, and I have to sacrifice Major Prophecy because I'm getting it from pots. Camo Hunter/Inner Light is only useful against NB and don't even work most of the time. I can use a gap closer to chase someone down, or use it with Rushing Agony or other sets to deal extra damage. I can't do that with Camo Hunter/Inner Light.

Cloak needs a ramping cost, and it's long overdue. If you can't play a NB without Cloak, then I could say it's something you need to improve on.

[edited to remove quote]

Straw man argument? I haven't heard a single reason yet that justifies what you all are asking for. I might be wrong but don't you post different daily nerf posts?

If your saying you have no trouble killing nbs then why are you asking for a nerf? Survive the opening. Pop a detect pot, mage light, camo hunter, or any or the other nerfs in game. How exactly is the nb getting away? Especially if it's a detect pot? You can literally see them anywhere. Streak towards/through them and they dead.

Straw man argument? You mean like saying you shouldn't have to use the most powerful counter because you have to wait 45 seconds to use another? Like seriously. That's as strawman as it gets.

You straw manned me by saying it's a L2P issue to kill squishy NBs. Did I ever say anything about having difficulty killing squishy NBs?

The argument is about Cloak. You don't need to be a squishy NB to use Cloak. I can be in 30k resistance with 3.4k crit resist and still be able to use Cloak. Now I'm much harder to kill, and I can also disappear when I want. That's what many brawlerblades will be doing next patch with Cloak buff.

I'm sorry, but people like you add to the problem. Using strawman arguments to make yours appear more credible is a shameful tactic to try shutting down a legitimate balance request.

This is laughable. You post daily nerf threads. I have seen one of them be close to reasonable. There is one person spamming for nerfs daily. And it's not me.

I made a thread about Relequen being broken and it got a bunch of backlash. Guess what? Now everyone is realizing it's broken.

Most of my threads are legitimate complaints. I am also open to discussion, but people just don't want to discuss.

Agree to disagree. As do most others to your posts. They are centered around all classes but your own. Hence the large amount of feedback you get to l2p. Sorry man, but it is what it is. You are entitled to your opinions but if you post that amount expect not to be taken seriously. [snip]
Clearly Zos feels its underperforming, which I disagree with, and is buffing it. Which is too bad as I feel it's fine the way it is.
The compromise should be to cancel the buff and leave it alone.

Or maybe, just maybe, the vast majority of the forums are casual players and don’t experience the same thing I do?

It’s pretty bold to claim I have a l2p issue when I could probably out-experience the vast majority of them in a fight, not being toxic here.

Please step foot in Stormhaven or BG and fight the players I’m fighting. [snip]

[edited for baiting & to remove quote]

Alchimiste1 · July 2023

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Said it once I'll say it again:
If you use streak 4+ times in a row, you will most likely get away from a fight.

No, you don't. Even if you do, you've just spent 20k worth of magicka for maybe 8-9 seconds of breathing room, then whoever was chasing you will be right up your arse, like me in this video:

https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg

He streaked 3x in a row, and I caught up to him in 7 seconds. Make it 9 seconds if he streaked 4 times. He probably wasted 15k mag right there. I wasted 2k stam from sprinting. I wasn't even in 3x swift, nor should I have refreshed Hurricane that early, but the point is I wasted much less resources than he did.

The argument that Streaking multiple times in a row allows you to get away is outdated. You could in the past. You can't in the present.

And neither does cloak. With these new detect pots in counters all nbs in the area. They are constantly up. There is no pot that counters all sorcs in the area is there?

Trying to get away while being detected burns all our resources too.

You still don't get it do you?

Wasting 45s of sustain from Tri pot, Spell/Weapon Crit pot, or even Armor pot for 15s of detect is a HUGE sacrifice compared to say, using 3x Swift and Celerity CP.

You clearly don't play other classes or Sorc. If you did, you would know how easy it is to counter Streak and how difficult it is to counter Cloak without making major sacrifices.

No. You still don't get it. Its a I win button against most nightblades. There is no comparison to others. Give me a pot that renders your class useless.
Again, I have played since launch. I have 18 toons.
Giving up three traits and a CP is a huge sacrifice and it doesn't guarantee a kill. A pot does almost guarantee a kill.

Let me help you out. you know what you do when someone pops a detection potion on you ? You fight back. Yes I know it’s surprising but you also have access to other defense skill like vigor, healthy offering, rally, roll dodge block, block. All you have to do is fight for 15 seconds or so ?

Hell, if you are built like so many nbs on PC NA you can just hold down sprint.

Alchimiste1 · July 2023

One more helpful tip for nbs crutching on cloak.

When someone reveals you with camo hunter, they just wasted around 4k stam, 1 GCD, and they likely just broke free because you hit them with an incap from stealth. They are probably sitting at 30% max stam

why are you running away ?

StaticWave · July 2023

NyassaV wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Said it once I'll say it again:
If you use streak 4+ times in a row, you will most likely get away from a fight.

No, you don't. Even if you do, you've just spent 20k worth of magicka for maybe 8-9 seconds of breathing room, then whoever was chasing you will be right up your arse, like me in this video:

https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg

He streaked 3x in a row, and I caught up to him in 7 seconds. Make it 9 seconds if he streaked 4 times. He probably wasted 15k mag right there. I wasted 2k stam from sprinting. I wasn't even in 3x swift, nor should I have refreshed Hurricane that early, but the point is I wasted much less resources than he did.

The argument that Streaking multiple times in a row allows you to get away is outdated. You could in the past. You can't in the present.

And neither does cloak. With these new detect pots in counters all nbs in the area. They are constantly up. There is no pot that counters all sorcs in the area is there?

Trying to get away while being detected burns all our resources too.

You still don't get it do you?

Wasting 45s of sustain from Tri pot, Spell/Weapon Crit pot, or even Armor pot for 15s of detect is a HUGE sacrifice compared to say, using 3x Swift and Celerity CP.

You clearly don't play other classes or Sorc. If you did, you would know how easy it is to counter Streak and how difficult it is to counter Cloak without making major sacrifices.

You still need to make sacrifices to to counter streak technically. If you aren't using swift jewelry or celerity CP (Which sacrifices dmg and sacrifices survivability) then you'll struggle to catch up to a sorc after they streak. Sorc actually has a few decent soft counters to cloak with hurricane constantly pulling them out of stealth when nearby and curse going off all the time even when a Nightblade is in cloak.

To talk about curse some more, it can hit for more than 3k, and when cloaked you can't cast any healing or you expose yourself. So curse goes off and you recloak so you don't get zerged down and you are forced to eat that damage. Even if you pop vigor before going back into cloak, that extra GCD you are out of cloak is just enough time for a sorc to recast curse, and streak up to you because now they saw where you are.

Cloak is annoying, especially when people crutch on it. And when it is not countered properly then yeah, it's pretty powerful. But one must still make sacrifices to counter streak, same with cloak. Making these choices is a large part of theory crafting. Next patch I am choosing to still use camo hunter for the damage, despite the fact I could use a stun or something else, because I am making that sacrifice so that I can counter cloak (and yeah, do a little more dmg).

There are plenty of things to complain about with sorc, such as limited bar space. But complaining about cloak isn't really getting anyone anywhere. And if we are going to complain about nightblade, lets ask for minor expedition to be removed, cuz that was always a sorc thing.

Hurricane no longer pulls them out of stealth, or any AoE DoT. That was 2 years ago.

ShadowProc · July 2023

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

you can counter cloak and you cannot counter streak nearly as easily. Consider carrying detect potions.

Did you read the whole thread before commenting that? @NyassaV?

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Or pop a speed pot and catch any escaping player with ease, rendering Streak useless defensively.

You can find sets, and abilities, that counter ANYTHING in this game, completely.

The difference is that you can passively build against Streak and Mist Form by building movement speed, only one class benefits from stealth gameplay so you’re suggesting everyone build specifically into shutting down Cloak?

What about all 6 other classes you come across?

Just drop Major Sorcery for 50 seconds to fit a few seconds of Detect? It’s the same argument you’re going to make about chugging Speed pots.

You described Streak as “most likely” allowing you to escape after use in comparison to Cloak having “no guarantee” to escape, are you aware that “most likely” is “no guarantee”?

That you have “no guarantee” to escape a player by using Streak while easily countering it by adding any increase of movement speed to your build or slotting any gap closer for the innumerable other buffs that they provide while building into Cloak detect you are putting abilities that are extremely lacking against the 6 other classes onto your bar, taking up much needed bar space.

I understand why you would have that opinion though, as a Nightblade you don’t have a want for bar space like every other class. Even Dragonknights have to have internal battles about where to put Molten Armaments.

So do what every decent player does. Pop a detect pot. Good players have no trouble tackling and killing a nb with a pot.

Maybe NB should do what every good NB does and dodge roll an additional time and/or slot healthy offering and use it instead of relying ONLY on cloak for defense. Good NB have no trouble easily evading, out ranging and out healing during the limited reveal window that the detect pots provide.

Ummmmm WHAT. So you don't think nbs slot a heal? You think all they do is cloak? Lol. Healthy offering is a great burst heal on in most builds. Lol.

The anti NB zerg going on in this thread is out of control.

ShadowProc · July 2023

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Said it once I'll say it again:
If you use streak 4+ times in a row, you will most likely get away from a fight.

No, you don't. Even if you do, you've just spent 20k worth of magicka for maybe 8-9 seconds of breathing room, then whoever was chasing you will be right up your arse, like me in this video:

https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg

He streaked 3x in a row, and I caught up to him in 7 seconds. Make it 9 seconds if he streaked 4 times. He probably wasted 15k mag right there. I wasted 2k stam from sprinting. I wasn't even in 3x swift, nor should I have refreshed Hurricane that early, but the point is I wasted much less resources than he did.

The argument that Streaking multiple times in a row allows you to get away is outdated. You could in the past. You can't in the present.

And neither does cloak. With these new detect pots in counters all nbs in the area. They are constantly up. There is no pot that counters all sorcs in the area is there?

Trying to get away while being detected burns all our resources too.

You still don't get it do you?

Wasting 45s of sustain from Tri pot, Spell/Weapon Crit pot, or even Armor pot for 15s of detect is a HUGE sacrifice compared to say, using 3x Swift and Celerity CP.

You clearly don't play other classes or Sorc. If you did, you would know how easy it is to counter Streak and how difficult it is to counter Cloak without making major sacrifices.

No. You still don't get it. Its a I win button against most nightblades. There is no comparison to others. Give me a pot that renders your class useless.
Again, I have played since launch. I have 18 toons.
Giving up three traits and a CP is a huge sacrifice and it doesn't guarantee a kill. A pot does almost guarantee a kill.

But there is nothing stopping NBs from building tanky and using Cloak, so how can that be an I-win button? Unless you’re telling me killing a NB with 30k armor and 3.4k crit resist is easy?

So changing an entire build/playstyle is okay and not too much of a sacrifice but using a detect pot is too .uch sacrifice. Come on man

ShadowProc · July 2023

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

relog wrote: »

Shadowy Disguise is not any close to mechanic of streak and mist form. Besides game give you many ways to counter it. Its like adding ramping cost to any other skill, that you dont like such as Elemental Susceptibility (still 0 cost lol), Vigor etc.

And only 1 of them is actually reliable enough to be used, which is Detect Potions, which just recently got buffed. Even then, you are wasting 45s of better potions like Tripots or Armor pots, or an entire skill slot that has no use out side of countering 1 class that so happens to be obnoxiously common in Cyrodiil PvP

Meanwhile, Streak and Mist Form are easily countered by slotting a gap closer, which also has multiple uses outside of countering Streak and Mist users (for example, Rushing Agony with Stampede is widely used to bomb zergs). Heck, even sprinting is sufficient to counter a Streak/Mist user. I mean just look at this video where I chased down a magsorc with just sprinting.

https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg

Not true. You are not wasting 45 seconds. The new buff to pots is awful. If you can't kill the nb when you reveal them then that's on bad players.

Asking for yet another nerf to cloak is absurd.

Most nbs hiding in stealth and using cloak are squishy like glass. [snip]

Nobody's saying anything about not being able to kill squishy NBs. Don't use a strawman argument against me dude.

My argument is the counters for Streak/Mist are more effective and require less sacrifice than the counters for Cloak. Movement speed is abundant and easy to get without sacrificing a lot, and gap closer is useful for all scenarios, not just against Streak. Meanwhile, a detect potion is only useful against NB, and I have to sacrifice Major Prophecy because I'm getting it from pots. Camo Hunter/Inner Light is only useful against NB and don't even work most of the time. I can use a gap closer to chase someone down, or use it with Rushing Agony or other sets to deal extra damage. I can't do that with Camo Hunter/Inner Light.

Cloak needs a ramping cost, and it's long overdue. If you can't play a NB without Cloak, then I could say it's something you need to improve on.

[edited to remove quote]

Straw man argument? I haven't heard a single reason yet that justifies what you all are asking for. I might be wrong but don't you post different daily nerf posts?

If your saying you have no trouble killing nbs then why are you asking for a nerf? Survive the opening. Pop a detect pot, mage light, camo hunter, or any or the other nerfs in game. How exactly is the nb getting away? Especially if it's a detect pot? You can literally see them anywhere. Streak towards/through them and they dead.

Straw man argument? You mean like saying you shouldn't have to use the most powerful counter because you have to wait 45 seconds to use another? Like seriously. That's as strawman as it gets.

You straw manned me by saying it's a L2P issue to kill squishy NBs. Did I ever say anything about having difficulty killing squishy NBs?

The argument is about Cloak. You don't need to be a squishy NB to use Cloak. I can be in 30k resistance with 3.4k crit resist and still be able to use Cloak. Now I'm much harder to kill, and I can also disappear when I want. That's what many brawlerblades will be doing next patch with Cloak buff.

I'm sorry, but people like you add to the problem. Using strawman arguments to make yours appear more credible is a shameful tactic to try shutting down a legitimate balance request.

This is laughable. You post daily nerf threads. I have seen one of them be close to reasonable. There is one person spamming for nerfs daily. And it's not me.

I made a thread about Relequen being broken and it got a bunch of backlash. Guess what? Now everyone is realizing it's broken.

Most of my threads are legitimate complaints. I am also open to discussion, but people just don't want to discuss.

Agree to disagree. As do most others to your posts. They are centered around all classes but your own. Hence the large amount of feedback you get to l2p. Sorry man, but it is what it is. You are entitled to your opinions but if you post that amount expect not to be taken seriously. [snip]
Clearly Zos feels its underperforming, which I disagree with, and is buffing it. Which is too bad as I feel it's fine the way it is.
The compromise should be to cancel the buff and leave it alone.

Or maybe, just maybe, the vast majority of the forums are casual players and don’t experience the same thing I do?

It’s pretty bold to claim I have a l2p issue when I could probably out-experience the vast majority of them in a fight, not being toxic here.

Please step foot in Stormhaven or BG and fight the players I’m fighting. [snip]

Objection to speculation. Don't speak for others not here.

Listen to what you just said. You state you kill most players but ask for a lot of nerfs. What should players make of that?

[edited to remove quote]

StaticWave · July 2023

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Said it once I'll say it again:
If you use streak 4+ times in a row, you will most likely get away from a fight.

No, you don't. Even if you do, you've just spent 20k worth of magicka for maybe 8-9 seconds of breathing room, then whoever was chasing you will be right up your arse, like me in this video:

https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg

He streaked 3x in a row, and I caught up to him in 7 seconds. Make it 9 seconds if he streaked 4 times. He probably wasted 15k mag right there. I wasted 2k stam from sprinting. I wasn't even in 3x swift, nor should I have refreshed Hurricane that early, but the point is I wasted much less resources than he did.

The argument that Streaking multiple times in a row allows you to get away is outdated. You could in the past. You can't in the present.

And neither does cloak. With these new detect pots in counters all nbs in the area. They are constantly up. There is no pot that counters all sorcs in the area is there?

Trying to get away while being detected burns all our resources too.

You still don't get it do you?

Wasting 45s of sustain from Tri pot, Spell/Weapon Crit pot, or even Armor pot for 15s of detect is a HUGE sacrifice compared to say, using 3x Swift and Celerity CP.

You clearly don't play other classes or Sorc. If you did, you would know how easy it is to counter Streak and how difficult it is to counter Cloak without making major sacrifices.

No. You still don't get it. Its a I win button against most nightblades. There is no comparison to others. Give me a pot that renders your class useless.
Again, I have played since launch. I have 18 toons.
Giving up three traits and a CP is a huge sacrifice and it doesn't guarantee a kill. A pot does almost guarantee a kill.

But there is nothing stopping NBs from building tanky and using Cloak, so how can that be an I-win button? Unless you’re telling me killing a NB with 30k armor and 3.4k crit resist is easy?

So changing an entire build/playstyle is okay and not too much of a sacrifice but using a detect pot is too .uch sacrifice. Come on man

Lol, so you admit you're crutching on Cloak to survive? That's like me removing all my heals to crutch on Streak. Not my problem if you die when someone pops a detect pot.

I can guarantee you that when I'm using Cloak and someone pops a detect pot, I will just simply fight back. This is a clip of me 10 months ago 1vXing on my MEME NB with Cloak and getting removed from stealth multiple times. Guess what? I didn't die cause I actually use my heals.

https://youtu.be/3ZCuRe6oLHU

This sounds to me like you're defending Cloak because you're just another of those gankers killing people from stealth with a 30k dmg combo. Not my problem you chose to go full damage and can't survive when Cloak is being countered.

ShadowProc · July 2023

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Said it once I'll say it again:
If you use streak 4+ times in a row, you will most likely get away from a fight.

No, you don't. Even if you do, you've just spent 20k worth of magicka for maybe 8-9 seconds of breathing room, then whoever was chasing you will be right up your arse, like me in this video:

https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg

He streaked 3x in a row, and I caught up to him in 7 seconds. Make it 9 seconds if he streaked 4 times. He probably wasted 15k mag right there. I wasted 2k stam from sprinting. I wasn't even in 3x swift, nor should I have refreshed Hurricane that early, but the point is I wasted much less resources than he did.

The argument that Streaking multiple times in a row allows you to get away is outdated. You could in the past. You can't in the present.

And neither does cloak. With these new detect pots in counters all nbs in the area. They are constantly up. There is no pot that counters all sorcs in the area is there?

Trying to get away while being detected burns all our resources too.

You still don't get it do you?

Wasting 45s of sustain from Tri pot, Spell/Weapon Crit pot, or even Armor pot for 15s of detect is a HUGE sacrifice compared to say, using 3x Swift and Celerity CP.

You clearly don't play other classes or Sorc. If you did, you would know how easy it is to counter Streak and how difficult it is to counter Cloak without making major sacrifices.

No. You still don't get it. Its a I win button against most nightblades. There is no comparison to others. Give me a pot that renders your class useless.
Again, I have played since launch. I have 18 toons.
Giving up three traits and a CP is a huge sacrifice and it doesn't guarantee a kill. A pot does almost guarantee a kill.

Let me help you out. you know what you do when someone pops a detection potion on you ? You fight back. Yes I know it’s surprising but you also have access to other defense skill like vigor, healthy offering, rally, roll dodge block, block. All you have to do is fight for 15 seconds or so ?

Hell, if you are built like so many nbs on PC NA you can just hold down sprint.

Who said I don't. Nice try. I know how to defend. But the longer you out of stealth and the quicker you run out of magicka. Add in ramping cost and stamblade goes bye bye unless you build like a tank brawler.

This argument has happened many times before. I trust Zos judgment and they do not want ramping cost on Cloak clearly so no point arguing.

ShadowProc · July 2023

StaticWave wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Said it once I'll say it again:
If you use streak 4+ times in a row, you will most likely get away from a fight.

No, you don't. Even if you do, you've just spent 20k worth of magicka for maybe 8-9 seconds of breathing room, then whoever was chasing you will be right up your arse, like me in this video:

https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg

He streaked 3x in a row, and I caught up to him in 7 seconds. Make it 9 seconds if he streaked 4 times. He probably wasted 15k mag right there. I wasted 2k stam from sprinting. I wasn't even in 3x swift, nor should I have refreshed Hurricane that early, but the point is I wasted much less resources than he did.

The argument that Streaking multiple times in a row allows you to get away is outdated. You could in the past. You can't in the present.

And neither does cloak. With these new detect pots in counters all nbs in the area. They are constantly up. There is no pot that counters all sorcs in the area is there?

Trying to get away while being detected burns all our resources too.

You still don't get it do you?

Wasting 45s of sustain from Tri pot, Spell/Weapon Crit pot, or even Armor pot for 15s of detect is a HUGE sacrifice compared to say, using 3x Swift and Celerity CP.

You clearly don't play other classes or Sorc. If you did, you would know how easy it is to counter Streak and how difficult it is to counter Cloak without making major sacrifices.

You still need to make sacrifices to to counter streak technically. If you aren't using swift jewelry or celerity CP (Which sacrifices dmg and sacrifices survivability) then you'll struggle to catch up to a sorc after they streak. Sorc actually has a few decent soft counters to cloak with hurricane constantly pulling them out of stealth when nearby and curse going off all the time even when a Nightblade is in cloak.

To talk about curse some more, it can hit for more than 3k, and when cloaked you can't cast any healing or you expose yourself. So curse goes off and you recloak so you don't get zerged down and you are forced to eat that damage. Even if you pop vigor before going back into cloak, that extra GCD you are out of cloak is just enough time for a sorc to recast curse, and streak up to you because now they saw where you are.

Cloak is annoying, especially when people crutch on it. And when it is not countered properly then yeah, it's pretty powerful. But one must still make sacrifices to counter streak, same with cloak. Making these choices is a large part of theory crafting. Next patch I am choosing to still use camo hunter for the damage, despite the fact I could use a stun or something else, because I am making that sacrifice so that I can counter cloak (and yeah, do a little more dmg).

There are plenty of things to complain about with sorc, such as limited bar space. But complaining about cloak isn't really getting anyone anywhere. And if we are going to complain about nightblade, lets ask for minor expedition to be removed, cuz that was always a sorc thing.

Hurricane no longer pulls them out of stealth, or any AoE DoT. That was 2 years ago.

My B. Good point.

Turtle_Bot · July 2023

ShadowProc wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

you can counter cloak and you cannot counter streak nearly as easily. Consider carrying detect potions.

Did you read the whole thread before commenting that? @NyassaV?

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Or pop a speed pot and catch any escaping player with ease, rendering Streak useless defensively.

You can find sets, and abilities, that counter ANYTHING in this game, completely.

The difference is that you can passively build against Streak and Mist Form by building movement speed, only one class benefits from stealth gameplay so you’re suggesting everyone build specifically into shutting down Cloak?

What about all 6 other classes you come across?

Just drop Major Sorcery for 50 seconds to fit a few seconds of Detect? It’s the same argument you’re going to make about chugging Speed pots.

You described Streak as “most likely” allowing you to escape after use in comparison to Cloak having “no guarantee” to escape, are you aware that “most likely” is “no guarantee”?

That you have “no guarantee” to escape a player by using Streak while easily countering it by adding any increase of movement speed to your build or slotting any gap closer for the innumerable other buffs that they provide while building into Cloak detect you are putting abilities that are extremely lacking against the 6 other classes onto your bar, taking up much needed bar space.

I understand why you would have that opinion though, as a Nightblade you don’t have a want for bar space like every other class. Even Dragonknights have to have internal battles about where to put Molten Armaments.

So do what every decent player does. Pop a detect pot. Good players have no trouble tackling and killing a nb with a pot.

Maybe NB should do what every good NB does and dodge roll an additional time and/or slot healthy offering and use it instead of relying ONLY on cloak for defense. Good NB have no trouble easily evading, out ranging and out healing during the limited reveal window that the detect pots provide.

Ummmmm WHAT. So you don't think nbs slot a heal? You think all they do is cloak? Lol. Healthy offering is a great burst heal on in most builds. Lol.

The anti NB zerg going on in this thread is out of control.

Considering how so many NB mains cry about cloak being so incredibly weak and easy to counter and NB having no defensive options and being so insanely squishy it's not a stretch to assume that none of them slot offering/vigor/refreshing path and relying solely on cloak for defense.
Because if they were using those defensive abilities like the good NB players do, they wouldn't be crying about cloak being weak like they constantly spam the forums about.

NB is the second most OP class in the game right now (right behind DK) and despite STILL GETTING NOTHING BUT BUFFS NB mains still complain about any suggestion of balance to their class like its still the Elswyr patch and continuously troll, bait and bash sorc threads to no end when sorcs ask for a mere fraction of the buffs NBs got over the past year.

FYI, I played NB that patch btw, NB was not as weak back then as NB mains like to continuously claim it was. It was not strong, but it was more than playable and could definitely do things.

As for an "anti-NB zerg" [snip] are you <snip> serious? The vast majority on the forums are NB mains crying about their overtuned class because it doesn't one shot everything in the game yet, it doesn't automatically play the game for them and it isn't an unkillable permablocking tank when its built for pure glass cannon with no defense at all.

[edited for profanity bypass]

StaticWave · July 2023

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

you can counter cloak and you cannot counter streak nearly as easily. Consider carrying detect potions.

Did you read the whole thread before commenting that? @NyassaV?

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Or pop a speed pot and catch any escaping player with ease, rendering Streak useless defensively.

You can find sets, and abilities, that counter ANYTHING in this game, completely.

The difference is that you can passively build against Streak and Mist Form by building movement speed, only one class benefits from stealth gameplay so you’re suggesting everyone build specifically into shutting down Cloak?

What about all 6 other classes you come across?

Just drop Major Sorcery for 50 seconds to fit a few seconds of Detect? It’s the same argument you’re going to make about chugging Speed pots.

You described Streak as “most likely” allowing you to escape after use in comparison to Cloak having “no guarantee” to escape, are you aware that “most likely” is “no guarantee”?

That you have “no guarantee” to escape a player by using Streak while easily countering it by adding any increase of movement speed to your build or slotting any gap closer for the innumerable other buffs that they provide while building into Cloak detect you are putting abilities that are extremely lacking against the 6 other classes onto your bar, taking up much needed bar space.

I understand why you would have that opinion though, as a Nightblade you don’t have a want for bar space like every other class. Even Dragonknights have to have internal battles about where to put Molten Armaments.

So do what every decent player does. Pop a detect pot. Good players have no trouble tackling and killing a nb with a pot.

Maybe NB should do what every good NB does and dodge roll an additional time and/or slot healthy offering and use it instead of relying ONLY on cloak for defense. Good NB have no trouble easily evading, out ranging and out healing during the limited reveal window that the detect pots provide.

Ummmmm WHAT. So you don't think nbs slot a heal? You think all they do is cloak? Lol. Healthy offering is a great burst heal on in most builds. Lol.

The anti NB zerg going on in this thread is out of control.

Considering how so many NB mains cry about cloak being so incredibly weak and easy to counter and NB having no defensive options and being so insanely squishy it's not a stretch to assume that none of them slot offering/vigor/refreshing path and relying solely on cloak for defense.
Because if they were using those defensive abilities like the good NB players do, they wouldn't be crying about cloak being weak like they constantly spam the forums about.

NB is the second most OP class in the game right now (right behind DK) and despite STILL GETTING NOTHING BUT BUFFS NB mains still complain about any suggestion of balance to their class like its still the Elswyr patch and continuously troll, bait and bash sorc threads to no end when sorcs ask for a mere fraction of the buffs NBs got over the past year.

FYI, I played NB that patch btw, NB was not as weak back then as NB mains like to continuously claim it was. It was not strong, but it was more than playable and could definitely do things.

As for an "anti-NB zerg" [snip] are you <snip> serious? The vast majority on the forums are NB mains crying about their overtuned class because it doesn't one shot everything in the game yet, it doesn't automatically play the game for them and it isn't an unkillable permablocking tank when its built for pure glass cannon with no defense at all.

Exactly. Everytime I hear NBs on the forums cry about their class being easy to kill when Cloak gets countered, I already know they're one of the full damage gankers with zero heals outside of Cloak.

Good NBs are very hard to kill unless you use an insanely high pressure build, which imo will be less of a counter against NBs when they can use Cloak next patch with their heals.

It's very hard to make any impactful balance suggestion on the forums regarding Cloak because I feel like the vast majority of NBs on the forums are either gankers or new players who crutch a lot on this ability. Good NBs like @React and @Alchimiste1 do well without Cloak, but they will perform on an even higher level with Cloak buff next patch. I just hope ZoS realizes the direction they're going with NB in PvP because everyone will be playing NB if this buff goes through.

[edited to remove quote]

StaticWave · July 2023

This is what brawlerblades will run next patch:

You know, just casually sitting in 26-27k armor front bar with 3.6k crit resist, 7k weapon damage fully buffed without continuous, 95% crit dmg, and decent pen. Oh, don't forget they can now also use Cloak.

Or they can also use this:

Swap Refreshing Path with Shadow Image for mega juke potential without losing the 10% dmg buff from Concealed cause leaving stealth gives them that buff. Or they can slot Ambush to gap close those pesky Streak users while also having Cloak and being a tank. Or they can slot Caltrop for Aoe Major Breach + a 50% snare and drop Night Mother for a strong proc set like Way of Fire, or use a defensive set and still have all these stats like this:

Dang dude, imagine being in Trickery + Rallying Cry and having almost 7k weapon dmg, 44% crit chance, 95% crit dmg, 30k armor back bar, 3.6k crit resist, AND HAVE CLOAK.

Look at my Healthy Offering tooltip with Major Mending from Trickery:

Easily a 20k+ Healthy Offering tooltip with both Major Mending and Vitality up. Not to mention Major Heroism, Major Expedition and Major Protection. This is an absolute joke lol. These stats shouldn't be possible but NB can get it. If you're against Cloak receiving a ramping cost, then please provide me a better argument than "Cloak can easily be countered and NBs are squishy when revealed". Because quite frankly, I don't see anything squishy about your class.

Weckless · July 2023

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Said it once I'll say it again:
If you use streak 4+ times in a row, you will most likely get away from a fight.

No, you don't. Even if you do, you've just spent 20k worth of magicka for maybe 8-9 seconds of breathing room, then whoever was chasing you will be right up your arse, like me in this video:

https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg

He streaked 3x in a row, and I caught up to him in 7 seconds. Make it 9 seconds if he streaked 4 times. He probably wasted 15k mag right there. I wasted 2k stam from sprinting. I wasn't even in 3x swift, nor should I have refreshed Hurricane that early, but the point is I wasted much less resources than he did.

The argument that Streaking multiple times in a row allows you to get away is outdated. You could in the past. You can't in the present.

And neither does cloak. With these new detect pots in counters all nbs in the area. They are constantly up. There is no pot that counters all sorcs in the area is there?

Trying to get away while being detected burns all our resources too.

You still don't get it do you?

Wasting 45s of sustain from Tri pot, Spell/Weapon Crit pot, or even Armor pot for 15s of detect is a HUGE sacrifice compared to say, using 3x Swift and Celerity CP.

You clearly don't play other classes or Sorc. If you did, you would know how easy it is to counter Streak and how difficult it is to counter Cloak without making major sacrifices.

You still need to make sacrifices to to counter streak technically. If you aren't using swift jewelry or celerity CP (Which sacrifices dmg and sacrifices survivability) then you'll struggle to catch up to a sorc after they streak. Sorc actually has a few decent soft counters to cloak with hurricane constantly pulling them out of stealth when nearby and curse going off all the time even when a Nightblade is in cloak.

To talk about curse some more, it can hit for more than 3k, and when cloaked you can't cast any healing or you expose yourself. So curse goes off and you recloak so you don't get zerged down and you are forced to eat that damage. Even if you pop vigor before going back into cloak, that extra GCD you are out of cloak is just enough time for a sorc to recast curse, and streak up to you because now they saw where you are.

Cloak is annoying, especially when people crutch on it. And when it is not countered properly then yeah, it's pretty powerful. But one must still make sacrifices to counter streak, same with cloak. Making these choices is a large part of theory crafting. Next patch I am choosing to still use camo hunter for the damage, despite the fact I could use a stun or something else, because I am making that sacrifice so that I can counter cloak (and yeah, do a little more dmg).

There are plenty of things to complain about with sorc, such as limited bar space. But complaining about cloak isn't really getting anyone anywhere. And if we are going to complain about nightblade, lets ask for minor expedition to be removed, cuz that was always a sorc thing.

inb4 this person changes their mind and drops camo for cloak

Lol you can use camo hunter if you want im just keeping it real im dropping that so fast can't none of yall get enough movement speed to stop me. Ill take uhh major and minor Cowardice please.. make it aoe while you're at it 😎

ShadowProc · July 2023

StaticWave wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Said it once I'll say it again:
If you use streak 4+ times in a row, you will most likely get away from a fight.

No, you don't. Even if you do, you've just spent 20k worth of magicka for maybe 8-9 seconds of breathing room, then whoever was chasing you will be right up your arse, like me in this video:

https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg

He streaked 3x in a row, and I caught up to him in 7 seconds. Make it 9 seconds if he streaked 4 times. He probably wasted 15k mag right there. I wasted 2k stam from sprinting. I wasn't even in 3x swift, nor should I have refreshed Hurricane that early, but the point is I wasted much less resources than he did.

The argument that Streaking multiple times in a row allows you to get away is outdated. You could in the past. You can't in the present.

And neither does cloak. With these new detect pots in counters all nbs in the area. They are constantly up. There is no pot that counters all sorcs in the area is there?

Trying to get away while being detected burns all our resources too.

You still don't get it do you?

Wasting 45s of sustain from Tri pot, Spell/Weapon Crit pot, or even Armor pot for 15s of detect is a HUGE sacrifice compared to say, using 3x Swift and Celerity CP.

You clearly don't play other classes or Sorc. If you did, you would know how easy it is to counter Streak and how difficult it is to counter Cloak without making major sacrifices.

You still need to make sacrifices to to counter streak technically. If you aren't using swift jewelry or celerity CP (Which sacrifices dmg and sacrifices survivability) then you'll struggle to catch up to a sorc after they streak. Sorc actually has a few decent soft counters to cloak with hurricane constantly pulling them out of stealth when nearby and curse going off all the time even when a Nightblade is in cloak.

To talk about curse some more, it can hit for more than 3k, and when cloaked you can't cast any healing or you expose yourself. So curse goes off and you recloak so you don't get zerged down and you are forced to eat that damage. Even if you pop vigor before going back into cloak, that extra GCD you are out of cloak is just enough time for a sorc to recast curse, and streak up to you because now they saw where you are.

Cloak is annoying, especially when people crutch on it. And when it is not countered properly then yeah, it's pretty powerful. But one must still make sacrifices to counter streak, same with cloak. Making these choices is a large part of theory crafting. Next patch I am choosing to still use camo hunter for the damage, despite the fact I could use a stun or something else, because I am making that sacrifice so that I can counter cloak (and yeah, do a little more dmg).

There are plenty of things to complain about with sorc, such as limited bar space. But complaining about cloak isn't really getting anyone anywhere. And if we are going to complain about nightblade, lets ask for minor expedition to be removed, cuz that was always a sorc thing.

Hurricane no longer pulls them out of stealth, or any AoE DoT. That was 2 years ago.

My B. Good point.

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

you can counter cloak and you cannot counter streak nearly as easily. Consider carrying detect potions.

Did you read the whole thread before commenting that? @NyassaV?

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Or pop a speed pot and catch any escaping player with ease, rendering Streak useless defensively.

You can find sets, and abilities, that counter ANYTHING in this game, completely.

The difference is that you can passively build against Streak and Mist Form by building movement speed, only one class benefits from stealth gameplay so you’re suggesting everyone build specifically into shutting down Cloak?

What about all 6 other classes you come across?

Just drop Major Sorcery for 50 seconds to fit a few seconds of Detect? It’s the same argument you’re going to make about chugging Speed pots.

You described Streak as “most likely” allowing you to escape after use in comparison to Cloak having “no guarantee” to escape, are you aware that “most likely” is “no guarantee”?

That you have “no guarantee” to escape a player by using Streak while easily countering it by adding any increase of movement speed to your build or slotting any gap closer for the innumerable other buffs that they provide while building into Cloak detect you are putting abilities that are extremely lacking against the 6 other classes onto your bar, taking up much needed bar space.

I understand why you would have that opinion though, as a Nightblade you don’t have a want for bar space like every other class. Even Dragonknights have to have internal battles about where to put Molten Armaments.

So do what every decent player does. Pop a detect pot. Good players have no trouble tackling and killing a nb with a pot.

Maybe NB should do what every good NB does and dodge roll an additional time and/or slot healthy offering and use it instead of relying ONLY on cloak for defense. Good NB have no trouble easily evading, out ranging and out healing during the limited reveal window that the detect pots provide.

Ummmmm WHAT. So you don't think nbs slot a heal? You think all they do is cloak? Lol. Healthy offering is a great burst heal on in most builds. Lol.

The anti NB zerg going on in this thread is out of control.

Considering how so many NB mains cry about cloak being so incredibly weak and easy to counter and NB having no defensive options and being so insanely squishy it's not a stretch to assume that none of them slot offering/vigor/refreshing path and relying solely on cloak for defense.
Because if they were using those defensive abilities like the good NB players do, they wouldn't be crying about cloak being weak like they constantly spam the forums about.

NB is the second most OP class in the game right now (right behind DK) and despite STILL GETTING NOTHING BUT BUFFS NB mains still complain about any suggestion of balance to their class like its still the Elswyr patch and continuously troll, bait and bash sorc threads to no end when sorcs ask for a mere fraction of the buffs NBs got over the past year.

FYI, I played NB that patch btw, NB was not as weak back then as NB mains like to continuously claim it was. It was not strong, but it was more than playable and could definitely do things.

As for an "anti-NB zerg" [snip] are you <snip> serious? The vast majority on the forums are NB mains crying about their overtuned class because it doesn't one shot everything in the game yet, it doesn't automatically play the game for them and it isn't an unkillable permablocking tank when its built for pure glass cannon with no defense at all.

Exactly. Everytime I hear NBs on the forums cry about their class being easy to kill when Cloak gets countered, I already know they're one of the full damage gankers with zero heals outside of Cloak.

Good NBs are very hard to kill unless you use an insanely high pressure build, which imo will be less of a counter against NBs when they can use Cloak next patch with their heals.

It's very hard to make any impactful balance suggestion on the forums regarding Cloak because I feel like the vast majority of NBs on the forums are either gankers or new players who crutch a lot on this ability. Good NBs like @React and @Alchimiste1 do well without Cloak, but they will perform on an even higher level with Cloak buff next patch. I just hope ZoS realizes the direction they're going with NB in PvP because everyone will be playing NB if this buff goes through.

And there it is. Your knowledge of nb on display. No heals outside of cloak? What are you two even talking about. [snip] Healthy Offering is a staple on most builds. I appreciate the humor you two have provided as I kill time in the hospital over that last couple days.

[edited for baiting & to remove quote]

StaticWave · July 2023

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Said it once I'll say it again:
If you use streak 4+ times in a row, you will most likely get away from a fight.

No, you don't. Even if you do, you've just spent 20k worth of magicka for maybe 8-9 seconds of breathing room, then whoever was chasing you will be right up your arse, like me in this video:

https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg

He streaked 3x in a row, and I caught up to him in 7 seconds. Make it 9 seconds if he streaked 4 times. He probably wasted 15k mag right there. I wasted 2k stam from sprinting. I wasn't even in 3x swift, nor should I have refreshed Hurricane that early, but the point is I wasted much less resources than he did.

The argument that Streaking multiple times in a row allows you to get away is outdated. You could in the past. You can't in the present.

And neither does cloak. With these new detect pots in counters all nbs in the area. They are constantly up. There is no pot that counters all sorcs in the area is there?

Trying to get away while being detected burns all our resources too.

You still don't get it do you?

Wasting 45s of sustain from Tri pot, Spell/Weapon Crit pot, or even Armor pot for 15s of detect is a HUGE sacrifice compared to say, using 3x Swift and Celerity CP.

You clearly don't play other classes or Sorc. If you did, you would know how easy it is to counter Streak and how difficult it is to counter Cloak without making major sacrifices.

You still need to make sacrifices to to counter streak technically. If you aren't using swift jewelry or celerity CP (Which sacrifices dmg and sacrifices survivability) then you'll struggle to catch up to a sorc after they streak. Sorc actually has a few decent soft counters to cloak with hurricane constantly pulling them out of stealth when nearby and curse going off all the time even when a Nightblade is in cloak.

To talk about curse some more, it can hit for more than 3k, and when cloaked you can't cast any healing or you expose yourself. So curse goes off and you recloak so you don't get zerged down and you are forced to eat that damage. Even if you pop vigor before going back into cloak, that extra GCD you are out of cloak is just enough time for a sorc to recast curse, and streak up to you because now they saw where you are.

Cloak is annoying, especially when people crutch on it. And when it is not countered properly then yeah, it's pretty powerful. But one must still make sacrifices to counter streak, same with cloak. Making these choices is a large part of theory crafting. Next patch I am choosing to still use camo hunter for the damage, despite the fact I could use a stun or something else, because I am making that sacrifice so that I can counter cloak (and yeah, do a little more dmg).

There are plenty of things to complain about with sorc, such as limited bar space. But complaining about cloak isn't really getting anyone anywhere. And if we are going to complain about nightblade, lets ask for minor expedition to be removed, cuz that was always a sorc thing.

Hurricane no longer pulls them out of stealth, or any AoE DoT. That was 2 years ago.

My B. Good point.

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

you can counter cloak and you cannot counter streak nearly as easily. Consider carrying detect potions.

Did you read the whole thread before commenting that? @NyassaV?

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Or pop a speed pot and catch any escaping player with ease, rendering Streak useless defensively.

You can find sets, and abilities, that counter ANYTHING in this game, completely.

The difference is that you can passively build against Streak and Mist Form by building movement speed, only one class benefits from stealth gameplay so you’re suggesting everyone build specifically into shutting down Cloak?

What about all 6 other classes you come across?

Just drop Major Sorcery for 50 seconds to fit a few seconds of Detect? It’s the same argument you’re going to make about chugging Speed pots.

You described Streak as “most likely” allowing you to escape after use in comparison to Cloak having “no guarantee” to escape, are you aware that “most likely” is “no guarantee”?

That you have “no guarantee” to escape a player by using Streak while easily countering it by adding any increase of movement speed to your build or slotting any gap closer for the innumerable other buffs that they provide while building into Cloak detect you are putting abilities that are extremely lacking against the 6 other classes onto your bar, taking up much needed bar space.

I understand why you would have that opinion though, as a Nightblade you don’t have a want for bar space like every other class. Even Dragonknights have to have internal battles about where to put Molten Armaments.

So do what every decent player does. Pop a detect pot. Good players have no trouble tackling and killing a nb with a pot.

Maybe NB should do what every good NB does and dodge roll an additional time and/or slot healthy offering and use it instead of relying ONLY on cloak for defense. Good NB have no trouble easily evading, out ranging and out healing during the limited reveal window that the detect pots provide.

Ummmmm WHAT. So you don't think nbs slot a heal? You think all they do is cloak? Lol. Healthy offering is a great burst heal on in most builds. Lol.

The anti NB zerg going on in this thread is out of control.

Considering how so many NB mains cry about cloak being so incredibly weak and easy to counter and NB having no defensive options and being so insanely squishy it's not a stretch to assume that none of them slot offering/vigor/refreshing path and relying solely on cloak for defense.
Because if they were using those defensive abilities like the good NB players do, they wouldn't be crying about cloak being weak like they constantly spam the forums about.

NB is the second most OP class in the game right now (right behind DK) and despite STILL GETTING NOTHING BUT BUFFS NB mains still complain about any suggestion of balance to their class like its still the Elswyr patch and continuously troll, bait and bash sorc threads to no end when sorcs ask for a mere fraction of the buffs NBs got over the past year.

FYI, I played NB that patch btw, NB was not as weak back then as NB mains like to continuously claim it was. It was not strong, but it was more than playable and could definitely do things.

As for an "anti-NB zerg" [snip] are you <snip> serious? The vast majority on the forums are NB mains crying about their overtuned class because it doesn't one shot everything in the game yet, it doesn't automatically play the game for them and it isn't an unkillable permablocking tank when its built for pure glass cannon with no defense at all.

Exactly. Everytime I hear NBs on the forums cry about their class being easy to kill when Cloak gets countered, I already know they're one of the full damage gankers with zero heals outside of Cloak.

Good NBs are very hard to kill unless you use an insanely high pressure build, which imo will be less of a counter against NBs when they can use Cloak next patch with their heals.

It's very hard to make any impactful balance suggestion on the forums regarding Cloak because I feel like the vast majority of NBs on the forums are either gankers or new players who crutch a lot on this ability. Good NBs like @React and @Alchimiste1 do well without Cloak, but they will perform on an even higher level with Cloak buff next patch. I just hope ZoS realizes the direction they're going with NB in PvP because everyone will be playing NB if this buff goes through.

And there it is. Your knowledge of nb on display. No heals outside of cloak? What are you two even talking about. [snip] Healthy Offering is a staple on most builds. I appreciate the humor you two have provided as I kill time in the hospital over that last couple days.

Healthy Offering alone isn't going to save you. Also, you have Cloak + Healthy, which all cost mag. No wonder you said your sustain gets pressured when Cloak is countered.

[edited to remove quote]

Amottica · July 2023

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Said it once I'll say it again:
If you use streak 4+ times in a row, you will most likely get away from a fight.

No, you don't. Even if you do, you've just spent 20k worth of magicka for maybe 8-9 seconds of breathing room, then whoever was chasing you will be right up your arse, like me in this video:

https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg

He streaked 3x in a row, and I caught up to him in 7 seconds. Make it 9 seconds if he streaked 4 times. He probably wasted 15k mag right there. I wasted 2k stam from sprinting. I wasn't even in 3x swift, nor should I have refreshed Hurricane that early, but the point is I wasted much less resources than he did.

The argument that Streaking multiple times in a row allows you to get away is outdated. You could in the past. You can't in the present.

And neither does cloak. With these new detect pots in counters all nbs in the area. They are constantly up. There is no pot that counters all sorcs in the area is there?

Trying to get away while being detected burns all our resources too.

You still don't get it do you?

Wasting 45s of sustain from Tri pot, Spell/Weapon Crit pot, or even Armor pot for 15s of detect is a HUGE sacrifice compared to say, using 3x Swift and Celerity CP.

You clearly don't play other classes or Sorc. If you did, you would know how easy it is to counter Streak and how difficult it is to counter Cloak without making major sacrifices.

No. You still don't get it. Its a I win button against most nightblades. There is no comparison to others. Give me a pot that renders your class useless.
Again, I have played since launch. I have 18 toons.
Giving up three traits and a CP is a huge sacrifice and it doesn't guarantee a kill. A pot does almost guarantee a kill.

But there is nothing stopping NBs from building tanky and using Cloak, so how can that be an I-win button? Unless you’re telling me killing a NB with 30k armor and 3.4k crit resist is easy?

But the reality of the matter is players like myself effectively use counters to pull NBs out of stealth. I was clumsy with this in the beginning but got pretty good as I like to hunt gankers when I run solo.

And looking at a specific build being more difficult to kill is not relevant to the core discussion of this thread.

AndreNoir · July 2023

StaticWave wrote: »

This is what brawlerblades will run next patch:

You know, just casually sitting in 26-27k armor front bar with 3.6k crit resist, 7k weapon damage fully buffed without continuous, 95% crit dmg, and decent pen. Oh, don't forget they can now also use Cloak.

Or they can also use this:

Swap Refreshing Path with Shadow Image for mega juke potential without losing the 10% dmg buff from Concealed cause leaving stealth gives them that buff. Or they can slot Ambush to gap close those pesky Streak users while also having Cloak and being a tank. Or they can slot Caltrop for Aoe Major Breach + a 50% snare and drop Night Mother for a strong proc set like Way of Fire, or use a defensive set and still have all these stats like this:

Dang dude, imagine being in Trickery + Rallying Cry and having almost 7k weapon dmg, 44% crit chance, 95% crit dmg, 30k armor back bar, 3.6k crit resist, AND HAVE CLOAK.

Look at my Healthy Offering tooltip with Major Mending from Trickery:

Easily a 20k+ Healthy Offering tooltip with both Major Mending and Vitality up. Not to mention Major Heroism, Major Expedition and Major Protection. This is an absolute joke lol. These stats shouldn't be possible but NB can get it. If you're against Cloak receiving a ramping cost, then please provide me a better argument than "Cloak can easily be countered and NBs are squishy when revealed". Because quite frankly, I don't see anything squishy about your class.

Any valid arguments except almost 3 years old sNB's build ? Except concealed weapon +10% and Rallying Cry on a flex slot nothing has changed over last years

StaticWave · July 2023

AndreNoir wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

This is what brawlerblades will run next patch:

You know, just casually sitting in 26-27k armor front bar with 3.6k crit resist, 7k weapon damage fully buffed without continuous, 95% crit dmg, and decent pen. Oh, don't forget they can now also use Cloak.

Or they can also use this:

Swap Refreshing Path with Shadow Image for mega juke potential without losing the 10% dmg buff from Concealed cause leaving stealth gives them that buff. Or they can slot Ambush to gap close those pesky Streak users while also having Cloak and being a tank. Or they can slot Caltrop for Aoe Major Breach + a 50% snare and drop Night Mother for a strong proc set like Way of Fire, or use a defensive set and still have all these stats like this:

Dang dude, imagine being in Trickery + Rallying Cry and having almost 7k weapon dmg, 44% crit chance, 95% crit dmg, 30k armor back bar, 3.6k crit resist, AND HAVE CLOAK.

Look at my Healthy Offering tooltip with Major Mending from Trickery:

Easily a 20k+ Healthy Offering tooltip with both Major Mending and Vitality up. Not to mention Major Heroism, Major Expedition and Major Protection. This is an absolute joke lol. These stats shouldn't be possible but NB can get it. If you're against Cloak receiving a ramping cost, then please provide me a better argument than "Cloak can easily be countered and NBs are squishy when revealed". Because quite frankly, I don't see anything squishy about your class.

Any valid arguments except almost 3 years old sNB's build ? Except concealed weapon +10% and Rallying Cry on a flex slot nothing has changed over last years

Those are the best sets for stat builds in this meta. Old or not, this stuff works on brawlerblade.

I don’t see the point you’re making?

StaticWave · July 2023

Amottica wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Said it once I'll say it again:
If you use streak 4+ times in a row, you will most likely get away from a fight.

No, you don't. Even if you do, you've just spent 20k worth of magicka for maybe 8-9 seconds of breathing room, then whoever was chasing you will be right up your arse, like me in this video:

https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg

He streaked 3x in a row, and I caught up to him in 7 seconds. Make it 9 seconds if he streaked 4 times. He probably wasted 15k mag right there. I wasted 2k stam from sprinting. I wasn't even in 3x swift, nor should I have refreshed Hurricane that early, but the point is I wasted much less resources than he did.

The argument that Streaking multiple times in a row allows you to get away is outdated. You could in the past. You can't in the present.

And neither does cloak. With these new detect pots in counters all nbs in the area. They are constantly up. There is no pot that counters all sorcs in the area is there?

Trying to get away while being detected burns all our resources too.

You still don't get it do you?

Wasting 45s of sustain from Tri pot, Spell/Weapon Crit pot, or even Armor pot for 15s of detect is a HUGE sacrifice compared to say, using 3x Swift and Celerity CP.

You clearly don't play other classes or Sorc. If you did, you would know how easy it is to counter Streak and how difficult it is to counter Cloak without making major sacrifices.

No. You still don't get it. Its a I win button against most nightblades. There is no comparison to others. Give me a pot that renders your class useless.
Again, I have played since launch. I have 18 toons.
Giving up three traits and a CP is a huge sacrifice and it doesn't guarantee a kill. A pot does almost guarantee a kill.

But there is nothing stopping NBs from building tanky and using Cloak, so how can that be an I-win button? Unless you’re telling me killing a NB with 30k armor and 3.4k crit resist is easy?

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Said it once I'll say it again:
If you use streak 4+ times in a row, you will most likely get away from a fight.

No, you don't. Even if you do, you've just spent 20k worth of magicka for maybe 8-9 seconds of breathing room, then whoever was chasing you will be right up your arse, like me in this video:

https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg

He streaked 3x in a row, and I caught up to him in 7 seconds. Make it 9 seconds if he streaked 4 times. He probably wasted 15k mag right there. I wasted 2k stam from sprinting. I wasn't even in 3x swift, nor should I have refreshed Hurricane that early, but the point is I wasted much less resources than he did.

The argument that Streaking multiple times in a row allows you to get away is outdated. You could in the past. You can't in the present.

And neither does cloak. With these new detect pots in counters all nbs in the area. They are constantly up. There is no pot that counters all sorcs in the area is there?

Trying to get away while being detected burns all our resources too.

You still don't get it do you?

Wasting 45s of sustain from Tri pot, Spell/Weapon Crit pot, or even Armor pot for 15s of detect is a HUGE sacrifice compared to say, using 3x Swift and Celerity CP.

You clearly don't play other classes or Sorc. If you did, you would know how easy it is to counter Streak and how difficult it is to counter Cloak without making major sacrifices.

No. You still don't get it. Its a I win button against most nightblades. There is no comparison to others. Give me a pot that renders your class useless.
Again, I have played since launch. I have 18 toons.
Giving up three traits and a CP is a huge sacrifice and it doesn't guarantee a kill. A pot does almost guarantee a kill.

But there is nothing stopping NBs from building tanky and using Cloak, so how can that be an I-win button? Unless you’re telling me killing a NB with 30k armor and 3.4k crit resist is easy?

But the reality of the matter is players like myself effectively use counters to pull NBs out of stealth. I was clumsy with this in the beginning but got pretty good as I like to hunt gankers when I run solo.

And looking at a specific build being more difficult to kill is not relevant to the core discussion of this thread.

It is in fact relevant to the core discussion because multiple Cloak defenders have argued that NB is really squishy and easy to kill when Cloak is countered.

I showed everyone the builds that make a NB tanky while having good damage to use with Cloak. The fact of the matter is every good brawlerblade WILL use Cloak next patch on their 30k armor build. There is nothing stopping them now. What stopped them tho was having to access Major Savagery through Camo Hunter.

Cloak either needs to have a ramping cost with the Savagery buff, or have the Savagery buff removed.

Weckless · July 2023

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Said it once I'll say it again:
If you use streak 4+ times in a row, you will most likely get away from a fight.

No, you don't. Even if you do, you've just spent 20k worth of magicka for maybe 8-9 seconds of breathing room, then whoever was chasing you will be right up your arse, like me in this video:

https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg

He streaked 3x in a row, and I caught up to him in 7 seconds. Make it 9 seconds if he streaked 4 times. He probably wasted 15k mag right there. I wasted 2k stam from sprinting. I wasn't even in 3x swift, nor should I have refreshed Hurricane that early, but the point is I wasted much less resources than he did.

The argument that Streaking multiple times in a row allows you to get away is outdated. You could in the past. You can't in the present.

And neither does cloak. With these new detect pots in counters all nbs in the area. They are constantly up. There is no pot that counters all sorcs in the area is there?

Trying to get away while being detected burns all our resources too.

You still don't get it do you?

Wasting 45s of sustain from Tri pot, Spell/Weapon Crit pot, or even Armor pot for 15s of detect is a HUGE sacrifice compared to say, using 3x Swift and Celerity CP.

You clearly don't play other classes or Sorc. If you did, you would know how easy it is to counter Streak and how difficult it is to counter Cloak without making major sacrifices.

I gotta call this one lol but at the same time I agree with the general idea. I dont think using a different pot is as big of a sacrifice as 3 jewelry traits and a cp slottable, but at the same time it doesnt take all of that to catch a streaking sorc lol.major expedition and sprint usually work for me especially with the increased melee range. I incap>bow'd a dude from like old steel tornado's range yesterday lol

ebix_ · July 2023

StaticWave wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Said it once I'll say it again:
If you use streak 4+ times in a row, you will most likely get away from a fight.

No, you don't. Even if you do, you've just spent 20k worth of magicka for maybe 8-9 seconds of breathing room, then whoever was chasing you will be right up your arse, like me in this video:

https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg

He streaked 3x in a row, and I caught up to him in 7 seconds. Make it 9 seconds if he streaked 4 times. He probably wasted 15k mag right there. I wasted 2k stam from sprinting. I wasn't even in 3x swift, nor should I have refreshed Hurricane that early, but the point is I wasted much less resources than he did.

The argument that Streaking multiple times in a row allows you to get away is outdated. You could in the past. You can't in the present.

And neither does cloak. With these new detect pots in counters all nbs in the area. They are constantly up. There is no pot that counters all sorcs in the area is there?

Trying to get away while being detected burns all our resources too.

You still don't get it do you?

Wasting 45s of sustain from Tri pot, Spell/Weapon Crit pot, or even Armor pot for 15s of detect is a HUGE sacrifice compared to say, using 3x Swift and Celerity CP.

You clearly don't play other classes or Sorc. If you did, you would know how easy it is to counter Streak and how difficult it is to counter Cloak without making major sacrifices.

No. You still don't get it. Its a I win button against most nightblades. There is no comparison to others. Give me a pot that renders your class useless.
Again, I have played since launch. I have 18 toons.
Giving up three traits and a CP is a huge sacrifice and it doesn't guarantee a kill. A pot does almost guarantee a kill.

But there is nothing stopping NBs from building tanky and using Cloak, so how can that be an I-win button? Unless you’re telling me killing a NB with 30k armor and 3.4k crit resist is easy?

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Said it once I'll say it again:
If you use streak 4+ times in a row, you will most likely get away from a fight.

No, you don't. Even if you do, you've just spent 20k worth of magicka for maybe 8-9 seconds of breathing room, then whoever was chasing you will be right up your arse, like me in this video:

https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg

He streaked 3x in a row, and I caught up to him in 7 seconds. Make it 9 seconds if he streaked 4 times. He probably wasted 15k mag right there. I wasted 2k stam from sprinting. I wasn't even in 3x swift, nor should I have refreshed Hurricane that early, but the point is I wasted much less resources than he did.

The argument that Streaking multiple times in a row allows you to get away is outdated. You could in the past. You can't in the present.

And neither does cloak. With these new detect pots in counters all nbs in the area. They are constantly up. There is no pot that counters all sorcs in the area is there?

Trying to get away while being detected burns all our resources too.

You still don't get it do you?

Wasting 45s of sustain from Tri pot, Spell/Weapon Crit pot, or even Armor pot for 15s of detect is a HUGE sacrifice compared to say, using 3x Swift and Celerity CP.

You clearly don't play other classes or Sorc. If you did, you would know how easy it is to counter Streak and how difficult it is to counter Cloak without making major sacrifices.

No. You still don't get it. Its a I win button against most nightblades. There is no comparison to others. Give me a pot that renders your class useless.
Again, I have played since launch. I have 18 toons.
Giving up three traits and a CP is a huge sacrifice and it doesn't guarantee a kill. A pot does almost guarantee a kill.

But there is nothing stopping NBs from building tanky and using Cloak, so how can that be an I-win button? Unless you’re telling me killing a NB with 30k armor and 3.4k crit resist is easy?

But the reality of the matter is players like myself effectively use counters to pull NBs out of stealth. I was clumsy with this in the beginning but got pretty good as I like to hunt gankers when I run solo.

And looking at a specific build being more difficult to kill is not relevant to the core discussion of this thread.

It is in fact relevant to the core discussion because multiple Cloak defenders have argued that NB is really squishy and easy to kill when Cloak is countered.

I showed everyone the builds that make a NB tanky while having good damage to use with Cloak. The fact of the matter is every good brawlerblade WILL use Cloak next patch on their 30k armor build. There is nothing stopping them now. What stopped them tho was having to access Major Savagery through Camo Hunter.

Cloak either needs to have a ramping cost with the Savagery buff, or have the Savagery buff removed.

Cloak is not the same as Streak so why you trying to push them through same balance filters!
if there is 4 players around you when you streak they get stunned and you get away, in same situation if you cloak something will break it like 90% of times. add more people and odds will keep stacking against you.
if even one of players that chase you run detect pot or any detection can pull you out for everyone, but if one person among 4 runs gap closer you will still have 3 less players on you.
if you get detected you cant Cloak for 4 seconds, there is nothing that can disable your Streak ability for 4 seconds.

[snip]
[edited for trolling]

Amottica · July 2023

StaticWave wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Said it once I'll say it again:
If you use streak 4+ times in a row, you will most likely get away from a fight.

No, you don't. Even if you do, you've just spent 20k worth of magicka for maybe 8-9 seconds of breathing room, then whoever was chasing you will be right up your arse, like me in this video:

https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg

He streaked 3x in a row, and I caught up to him in 7 seconds. Make it 9 seconds if he streaked 4 times. He probably wasted 15k mag right there. I wasted 2k stam from sprinting. I wasn't even in 3x swift, nor should I have refreshed Hurricane that early, but the point is I wasted much less resources than he did.

The argument that Streaking multiple times in a row allows you to get away is outdated. You could in the past. You can't in the present.

And neither does cloak. With these new detect pots in counters all nbs in the area. They are constantly up. There is no pot that counters all sorcs in the area is there?

Trying to get away while being detected burns all our resources too.

You still don't get it do you?

Wasting 45s of sustain from Tri pot, Spell/Weapon Crit pot, or even Armor pot for 15s of detect is a HUGE sacrifice compared to say, using 3x Swift and Celerity CP.

You clearly don't play other classes or Sorc. If you did, you would know how easy it is to counter Streak and how difficult it is to counter Cloak without making major sacrifices.

No. You still don't get it. Its a I win button against most nightblades. There is no comparison to others. Give me a pot that renders your class useless.
Again, I have played since launch. I have 18 toons.
Giving up three traits and a CP is a huge sacrifice and it doesn't guarantee a kill. A pot does almost guarantee a kill.

But there is nothing stopping NBs from building tanky and using Cloak, so how can that be an I-win button? Unless you’re telling me killing a NB with 30k armor and 3.4k crit resist is easy?

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Said it once I'll say it again:
If you use streak 4+ times in a row, you will most likely get away from a fight.

No, you don't. Even if you do, you've just spent 20k worth of magicka for maybe 8-9 seconds of breathing room, then whoever was chasing you will be right up your arse, like me in this video:

https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg

He streaked 3x in a row, and I caught up to him in 7 seconds. Make it 9 seconds if he streaked 4 times. He probably wasted 15k mag right there. I wasted 2k stam from sprinting. I wasn't even in 3x swift, nor should I have refreshed Hurricane that early, but the point is I wasted much less resources than he did.

The argument that Streaking multiple times in a row allows you to get away is outdated. You could in the past. You can't in the present.

And neither does cloak. With these new detect pots in counters all nbs in the area. They are constantly up. There is no pot that counters all sorcs in the area is there?

Trying to get away while being detected burns all our resources too.

You still don't get it do you?

Wasting 45s of sustain from Tri pot, Spell/Weapon Crit pot, or even Armor pot for 15s of detect is a HUGE sacrifice compared to say, using 3x Swift and Celerity CP.

You clearly don't play other classes or Sorc. If you did, you would know how easy it is to counter Streak and how difficult it is to counter Cloak without making major sacrifices.

No. You still don't get it. Its a I win button against most nightblades. There is no comparison to others. Give me a pot that renders your class useless.
Again, I have played since launch. I have 18 toons.
Giving up three traits and a CP is a huge sacrifice and it doesn't guarantee a kill. A pot does almost guarantee a kill.

But there is nothing stopping NBs from building tanky and using Cloak, so how can that be an I-win button? Unless you’re telling me killing a NB with 30k armor and 3.4k crit resist is easy?

But the reality of the matter is players like myself effectively use counters to pull NBs out of stealth. I was clumsy with this in the beginning but got pretty good as I like to hunt gankers when I run solo.

And looking at a specific build being more difficult to kill is not relevant to the core discussion of this thread.

It is in fact relevant to the core discussion because multiple Cloak defenders have argued that NB is really squishy and easy to kill when Cloak is countered.

I showed everyone the builds that make a NB tanky while having good damage to use with Cloak. The fact of the matter is every good brawlerblade WILL use Cloak next patch on their 30k armor build. There is nothing stopping them now. What stopped them tho was having to access Major Savagery through Camo Hunter.

Cloak either needs to have a ramping cost with the Savagery buff, or have the Savagery buff removed.

It’s not relevant to the core discussion at all as it doesn’t affect cloak or the effectiveness of counters to cloak.

Zenimax’s standard is that there is a counter. Zenimax can see that players like myself use those counters very effectively which means there is no need to have any ramping costs.

The real question is why are some players like myself able to effectively use counters to cloak while some people seem to find them challenging. Is it a difference in play styles, taking the time to figure out which counters work best for the player, or choosing to not use a counter.

My guess is it’s a little bit of each but it would be great why some players find the counters challenging when we know they work.

Alchimiste1 · July 2023

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Said it once I'll say it again:
If you use streak 4+ times in a row, you will most likely get away from a fight.

No, you don't. Even if you do, you've just spent 20k worth of magicka for maybe 8-9 seconds of breathing room, then whoever was chasing you will be right up your arse, like me in this video:

https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg

He streaked 3x in a row, and I caught up to him in 7 seconds. Make it 9 seconds if he streaked 4 times. He probably wasted 15k mag right there. I wasted 2k stam from sprinting. I wasn't even in 3x swift, nor should I have refreshed Hurricane that early, but the point is I wasted much less resources than he did.

The argument that Streaking multiple times in a row allows you to get away is outdated. You could in the past. You can't in the present.

And neither does cloak. With these new detect pots in counters all nbs in the area. They are constantly up. There is no pot that counters all sorcs in the area is there?

Trying to get away while being detected burns all our resources too.

You still don't get it do you?

Wasting 45s of sustain from Tri pot, Spell/Weapon Crit pot, or even Armor pot for 15s of detect is a HUGE sacrifice compared to say, using 3x Swift and Celerity CP.

You clearly don't play other classes or Sorc. If you did, you would know how easy it is to counter Streak and how difficult it is to counter Cloak without making major sacrifices.

You still need to make sacrifices to to counter streak technically. If you aren't using swift jewelry or celerity CP (Which sacrifices dmg and sacrifices survivability) then you'll struggle to catch up to a sorc after they streak. Sorc actually has a few decent soft counters to cloak with hurricane constantly pulling them out of stealth when nearby and curse going off all the time even when a Nightblade is in cloak.

To talk about curse some more, it can hit for more than 3k, and when cloaked you can't cast any healing or you expose yourself. So curse goes off and you recloak so you don't get zerged down and you are forced to eat that damage. Even if you pop vigor before going back into cloak, that extra GCD you are out of cloak is just enough time for a sorc to recast curse, and streak up to you because now they saw where you are.

Cloak is annoying, especially when people crutch on it. And when it is not countered properly then yeah, it's pretty powerful. But one must still make sacrifices to counter streak, same with cloak. Making these choices is a large part of theory crafting. Next patch I am choosing to still use camo hunter for the damage, despite the fact I could use a stun or something else, because I am making that sacrifice so that I can counter cloak (and yeah, do a little more dmg).

There are plenty of things to complain about with sorc, such as limited bar space. But complaining about cloak isn't really getting anyone anywhere. And if we are going to complain about nightblade, lets ask for minor expedition to be removed, cuz that was always a sorc thing.

Hurricane no longer pulls them out of stealth, or any AoE DoT. That was 2 years ago.

My B. Good point.

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

you can counter cloak and you cannot counter streak nearly as easily. Consider carrying detect potions.

Did you read the whole thread before commenting that? @NyassaV?

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Or pop a speed pot and catch any escaping player with ease, rendering Streak useless defensively.

You can find sets, and abilities, that counter ANYTHING in this game, completely.

The difference is that you can passively build against Streak and Mist Form by building movement speed, only one class benefits from stealth gameplay so you’re suggesting everyone build specifically into shutting down Cloak?

What about all 6 other classes you come across?

Just drop Major Sorcery for 50 seconds to fit a few seconds of Detect? It’s the same argument you’re going to make about chugging Speed pots.

You described Streak as “most likely” allowing you to escape after use in comparison to Cloak having “no guarantee” to escape, are you aware that “most likely” is “no guarantee”?

That you have “no guarantee” to escape a player by using Streak while easily countering it by adding any increase of movement speed to your build or slotting any gap closer for the innumerable other buffs that they provide while building into Cloak detect you are putting abilities that are extremely lacking against the 6 other classes onto your bar, taking up much needed bar space.

I understand why you would have that opinion though, as a Nightblade you don’t have a want for bar space like every other class. Even Dragonknights have to have internal battles about where to put Molten Armaments.

So do what every decent player does. Pop a detect pot. Good players have no trouble tackling and killing a nb with a pot.

Maybe NB should do what every good NB does and dodge roll an additional time and/or slot healthy offering and use it instead of relying ONLY on cloak for defense. Good NB have no trouble easily evading, out ranging and out healing during the limited reveal window that the detect pots provide.

Ummmmm WHAT. So you don't think nbs slot a heal? You think all they do is cloak? Lol. Healthy offering is a great burst heal on in most builds. Lol.

The anti NB zerg going on in this thread is out of control.

Considering how so many NB mains cry about cloak being so incredibly weak and easy to counter and NB having no defensive options and being so insanely squishy it's not a stretch to assume that none of them slot offering/vigor/refreshing path and relying solely on cloak for defense.
Because if they were using those defensive abilities like the good NB players do, they wouldn't be crying about cloak being weak like they constantly spam the forums about.

NB is the second most OP class in the game right now (right behind DK) and despite STILL GETTING NOTHING BUT BUFFS NB mains still complain about any suggestion of balance to their class like its still the Elswyr patch and continuously troll, bait and bash sorc threads to no end when sorcs ask for a mere fraction of the buffs NBs got over the past year.

FYI, I played NB that patch btw, NB was not as weak back then as NB mains like to continuously claim it was. It was not strong, but it was more than playable and could definitely do things.

As for an "anti-NB zerg" [snip] are you <snip> serious? The vast majority on the forums are NB mains crying about their overtuned class because it doesn't one shot everything in the game yet, it doesn't automatically play the game for them and it isn't an unkillable permablocking tank when its built for pure glass cannon with no defense at all.

Exactly. Everytime I hear NBs on the forums cry about their class being easy to kill when Cloak gets countered, I already know they're one of the full damage gankers with zero heals outside of Cloak.

Good NBs are very hard to kill unless you use an insanely high pressure build, which imo will be less of a counter against NBs when they can use Cloak next patch with their heals.

It's very hard to make any impactful balance suggestion on the forums regarding Cloak because I feel like the vast majority of NBs on the forums are either gankers or new players who crutch a lot on this ability. Good NBs like @React and @Alchimiste1 do well without Cloak, but they will perform on an even higher level with Cloak buff next patch. I just hope ZoS realizes the direction they're going with NB in PvP because everyone will be playing NB if this buff goes through.

And there it is. Your knowledge of nb on display. No heals outside of cloak? What are you two even talking about. [snip] Healthy Offering is a staple on most builds. I appreciate the humor you two have provided as I kill time in the hospital over that last couple days.

[edited for baiting & to remove quote]

You said , “ No. You still don't get it. It’s a I win button against most nightblades. There is no comparison to others. Give me a pot that renders your class useless.”

What I’m saying is if you have vigor and healthy offering or utilize the other defense tools nb has access to the. You should be able to survive for 15 seconds without cloak.

It is not an I win button.

PhoenixGrey · July 2023

Nerfing the Templar bubble was probably the worst decision by zos in pvp last year. The cloak nerf exactly sounds like that
Nerfing streak, BOL and warden shimmering shield all fall in the same category

Nerf stupid proc sets and not skills which require button presses.

There is no point talking about any class skills tbh because they aren’t even the main source of damage or defense on any class