I do not want Sorcerer buffs.

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

@jaws343 Let me quote what your 3 suggestions are for buffing shields:

“- Remove the Health cap from shields altogether.
- Remove Shield reduction from Battlespirit, or at the very least, decrease the amount of reduction done
- Make Sorc Shield and Light Armor Shield override one another. So that, when you cast one with the other active it takes its place.”

Like, I don’t want to be negative but they sound ridiculous.

You’re essentially asking for one shield to have the same strength as 2 shields. It’s a ridiculous suggestion. If this is the case, why not remove healing reduction from Battle Spirit too while we’re at it lol?

What’s going to happen if your suggestions get implemented is every sorc will run around with a 20k ward, 2-3 HoTs, and be unkillable while having max damage. There’s zero balance.

That was one pass following on from another comment's suggestion. But, as there have been countless threads on this, I have offered a handful of different approaches and ideas.

At the end of the day though. I disagree. Shields are far inferior to healing in every way. And one of the worst defensive options in the game right now.

As long as they take crit damage and don't utilize block mitigation, they need to be implemented better. At a minimum, they need to take crit chance/damage into account to allow for a shield to crit on cast.

Not to mention, the health scaling was probably the dumbest thing they did to shields. It didn't need to happen. Making shields take critical damage was more than enough to reduce their effectiveness. But now, we have to deal with 3 different scaling mechanics for a shield that basically make them good enough to only take the damage of 1 attack + 1 light attack. Unless you are in execute, then they might as well not even exist.

Magsorc is supposed to be a high damage and mobile class with weak defense. I just don’t understand why people want the class buffed to the point that a literal mage with light armor can somehow sit and face tank multiple people like a brawler and also be able to zap around the battlefield nuking people at range. It doesn’t make any sense. Why play anything else then if magsorc can be a brawler and a ranged nuker lol?

The problem is that they don't currently have the damage you're speaking of. And no I'm not saying that the whole combo doesn't work if you land it all. I'm saying other classes have much easier access to damage and healing that perform sorc. A well played templar can nuke a sorc at range with more reliability due to a broken combo.

People only want to brawl with sorc because every other class can and at range sorc is mostly good for killing potatoes.

Now I'm fine with either bringing other classes in line or buffing sorc but if they won't do one you can expect people will ask for the other.

The damage is definitely there. What you’re talking about is sorc not landing all of its damage due to counterplay.

That’s good game design. I don’t want to deal with a sorc that can land 90% of its combo from max range every single time because people on the forums think everyone shouldn’t have counters to a 10k frag, 7k overload, and 8k curse.

I’m sorry, but that’s just not going to happen. You can complain all day but at the end of the day sorc DOES NOT lack damage and ZOS knows this. It’s why they haven’t touched Sorc’s offense for years.

jaws343

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

@jaws343 Let me quote what your 3 suggestions are for buffing shields:

“- Remove the Health cap from shields altogether.
- Remove Shield reduction from Battlespirit, or at the very least, decrease the amount of reduction done
- Make Sorc Shield and Light Armor Shield override one another. So that, when you cast one with the other active it takes its place.”

Like, I don’t want to be negative but they sound ridiculous.

You’re essentially asking for one shield to have the same strength as 2 shields. It’s a ridiculous suggestion. If this is the case, why not remove healing reduction from Battle Spirit too while we’re at it lol?

What’s going to happen if your suggestions get implemented is every sorc will run around with a 20k ward, 2-3 HoTs, and be unkillable while having max damage. There’s zero balance.

That was one pass following on from another comment's suggestion. But, as there have been countless threads on this, I have offered a handful of different approaches and ideas.

At the end of the day though. I disagree. Shields are far inferior to healing in every way. And one of the worst defensive options in the game right now.

As long as they take crit damage and don't utilize block mitigation, they need to be implemented better. At a minimum, they need to take crit chance/damage into account to allow for a shield to crit on cast.

Not to mention, the health scaling was probably the dumbest thing they did to shields. It didn't need to happen. Making shields take critical damage was more than enough to reduce their effectiveness. But now, we have to deal with 3 different scaling mechanics for a shield that basically make them good enough to only take the damage of 1 attack + 1 light attack. Unless you are in execute, then they might as well not even exist.

Magsorc is supposed to be a high damage and mobile class with weak defense. I just don’t understand why people want the class buffed to the point that a literal mage with light armor can somehow sit and face tank multiple people like a brawler and also be able to zap around the battlefield nuking people at range. It doesn’t make any sense. Why play anything else then if magsorc can be a brawler and a ranged nuker lol?

The problem is that they don't currently have the damage you're speaking of. And no I'm not saying that the whole combo doesn't work if you land it all. I'm saying other classes have much easier access to damage and healing that perform sorc. A well played templar can nuke a sorc at range with more reliability due to a broken combo.

People only want to brawl with sorc because every other class can and at range sorc is mostly good for killing potatoes.

Now I'm fine with either bringing other classes in line or buffing sorc but if they won't do one you can expect people will ask for the other.

What do you mean they don’t have the damage? @MetallicMonk is hitting 10-11k frags…

I’m sorry but Templar is so bad this patch one has to purposely try to lose when fighting one. You should never ever lose to a Templar this patch.

Sorc is a high damage ranged nuker. There is no place for a sorc to facetank and brawl. That’s a bad game design by its core. A DK or a Plar has to get in melee range to brawl, and even if they play a ranged build, they still don’t have the same mobility as a sorc. Not even buffed Mist Form can compare to Streak in terms of mobility.

Please though, tell me the size of his shield with that damage. I bet it isn't worth the bar space to have it. I've put together that very build, and ran it for a bit, and shields were pretty much worthless on it.

I know, because on an optimized to increase shield size build, I can get a shield up to around 10K. That 10K shield is not great (drops to like 7K in BGs when you take out all the CP boosts to mag, health, and shields). But, since Mag scaling for Damage is less optimal, the damage on a build using shields is less than the damage on a build using spell/weapon damage.

So great, they're hitting 10-11K frags. While the primary defensive skill for the class is doing practically nothing for the build.

StaticWave

jaws343 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

@jaws343 Let me quote what your 3 suggestions are for buffing shields:

“- Remove the Health cap from shields altogether.
- Remove Shield reduction from Battlespirit, or at the very least, decrease the amount of reduction done
- Make Sorc Shield and Light Armor Shield override one another. So that, when you cast one with the other active it takes its place.”

Like, I don’t want to be negative but they sound ridiculous.

You’re essentially asking for one shield to have the same strength as 2 shields. It’s a ridiculous suggestion. If this is the case, why not remove healing reduction from Battle Spirit too while we’re at it lol?

What’s going to happen if your suggestions get implemented is every sorc will run around with a 20k ward, 2-3 HoTs, and be unkillable while having max damage. There’s zero balance.

That was one pass following on from another comment's suggestion. But, as there have been countless threads on this, I have offered a handful of different approaches and ideas.

At the end of the day though. I disagree. Shields are far inferior to healing in every way. And one of the worst defensive options in the game right now.

As long as they take crit damage and don't utilize block mitigation, they need to be implemented better. At a minimum, they need to take crit chance/damage into account to allow for a shield to crit on cast.

Not to mention, the health scaling was probably the dumbest thing they did to shields. It didn't need to happen. Making shields take critical damage was more than enough to reduce their effectiveness. But now, we have to deal with 3 different scaling mechanics for a shield that basically make them good enough to only take the damage of 1 attack + 1 light attack. Unless you are in execute, then they might as well not even exist.

Magsorc is supposed to be a high damage and mobile class with weak defense. I just don’t understand why people want the class buffed to the point that a literal mage with light armor can somehow sit and face tank multiple people like a brawler and also be able to zap around the battlefield nuking people at range. It doesn’t make any sense. Why play anything else then if magsorc can be a brawler and a ranged nuker lol?

The problem is that they don't currently have the damage you're speaking of. And no I'm not saying that the whole combo doesn't work if you land it all. I'm saying other classes have much easier access to damage and healing that perform sorc. A well played templar can nuke a sorc at range with more reliability due to a broken combo.

People only want to brawl with sorc because every other class can and at range sorc is mostly good for killing potatoes.

Now I'm fine with either bringing other classes in line or buffing sorc but if they won't do one you can expect people will ask for the other.

What do you mean they don’t have the damage? @MetallicMonk is hitting 10-11k frags…

I’m sorry but Templar is so bad this patch one has to purposely try to lose when fighting one. You should never ever lose to a Templar this patch.

Sorc is a high damage ranged nuker. There is no place for a sorc to facetank and brawl. That’s a bad game design by its core. A DK or a Plar has to get in melee range to brawl, and even if they play a ranged build, they still don’t have the same mobility as a sorc. Not even buffed Mist Form can compare to Streak in terms of mobility.

Please though, tell me the size of his shield with that damage. I bet it isn't worth the bar space to have it. I've put together that very build, and ran it for a bit, and shields were pretty much worthless on it.

I know, because on an optimized to increase shield size build, I can get a shield up to around 10K. That 10K shield is not great (drops to like 7K in BGs when you take out all the CP boosts to mag, health, and shields). But, since Mag scaling for Damage is less optimal, the damage on a build using shields is less than the damage on a build using spell/weapon damage.

So great, they're hitting 10-11K frags. While the primary defensive skill for the class is doing practically nothing for the build.

You can watch his latest 1vX video and see how the build performs. Like I said, magsorc adapted to the current meta is a strong class. If the class was truly weak, then @MetallicMonk wouldn’t be able to face tank 5+ people without Mara’s Balm and deal 10k+ frags.

https://youtu.be/d0D3OQgNI3g

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

@jaws343 Let me quote what your 3 suggestions are for buffing shields:

“- Remove the Health cap from shields altogether.
- Remove Shield reduction from Battlespirit, or at the very least, decrease the amount of reduction done
- Make Sorc Shield and Light Armor Shield override one another. So that, when you cast one with the other active it takes its place.”

Like, I don’t want to be negative but they sound ridiculous.

You’re essentially asking for one shield to have the same strength as 2 shields. It’s a ridiculous suggestion. If this is the case, why not remove healing reduction from Battle Spirit too while we’re at it lol?

What’s going to happen if your suggestions get implemented is every sorc will run around with a 20k ward, 2-3 HoTs, and be unkillable while having max damage. There’s zero balance.

That was one pass following on from another comment's suggestion. But, as there have been countless threads on this, I have offered a handful of different approaches and ideas.

At the end of the day though. I disagree. Shields are far inferior to healing in every way. And one of the worst defensive options in the game right now.

As long as they take crit damage and don't utilize block mitigation, they need to be implemented better. At a minimum, they need to take crit chance/damage into account to allow for a shield to crit on cast.

Not to mention, the health scaling was probably the dumbest thing they did to shields. It didn't need to happen. Making shields take critical damage was more than enough to reduce their effectiveness. But now, we have to deal with 3 different scaling mechanics for a shield that basically make them good enough to only take the damage of 1 attack + 1 light attack. Unless you are in execute, then they might as well not even exist.

Magsorc is supposed to be a high damage and mobile class with weak defense. I just don’t understand why people want the class buffed to the point that a literal mage with light armor can somehow sit and face tank multiple people like a brawler and also be able to zap around the battlefield nuking people at range. It doesn’t make any sense. Why play anything else then if magsorc can be a brawler and a ranged nuker lol?

The problem is that they don't currently have the damage you're speaking of. And no I'm not saying that the whole combo doesn't work if you land it all. I'm saying other classes have much easier access to damage and healing that perform sorc. A well played templar can nuke a sorc at range with more reliability due to a broken combo.

People only want to brawl with sorc because every other class can and at range sorc is mostly good for killing potatoes.

Now I'm fine with either bringing other classes in line or buffing sorc but if they won't do one you can expect people will ask for the other.

What do you mean they don’t have the damage? @MetallicMonk is hitting 10-11k frags…

I’m sorry but Templar is so bad this patch one has to purposely try to lose when fighting one. You should never ever lose to a Templar this patch.

Sorc is a high damage ranged nuker. There is no place for a sorc to facetank and brawl. That’s a bad game design by its core. A DK or a Plar has to get in melee range to brawl, and even if they play a ranged build, they still don’t have the same mobility as a sorc. Not even buffed Mist Form can compare to Streak in terms of mobility.

Again I agree that if you land the whole combo you're good but what do you do when you curse but they dodge the frag and a few overloads? You keep doing the rotation right? Except most classes can hit a 10k heal while doing more damage than you can. So yeah you streak around and do your rotation and sure they can't catch you most of the time but they can survive.

I enjoy sorc and play it for the challenge because I can't get into how much easier other classes are, not all of them but most.

So when I spoke of templar I was meaning while playing as sorc. If they are setup for a full balorg,meteor, javelin, radiant combo and know how to do it properly you're not surviving on sorc most times because you don't have the healing and it's a broken combo.

So I might be wrong on this one and I'm genuinely curious. Have you in recent times seen a sorc win a dueling tournament?

And honestly now that I think about it. I get what you're saying about being the mobile class with high damage but I can say from experience the damage when compared to players with equal ability on better classes doesn't match up on a good ratio.

OBJnoob

I'm curious where you, meaning Static and Metallic, would rank the build in this video in one of the classic PvP tier lists. Is it S tier? Is it A? B?

Do you play any other characters? Looking for honesty here... Not making any accusations, but curious to know what other characters you've tried this patch. Is it possible that you're just so stinking good at magsorc that you think it's better than it is?

Because while I do think balancing should take the ceiling into consideration I don't think an entire class needs to be judged by how the very best 2 or 5 can do. The average magsorc should also be comparable to the average of anything else, because most players are average.

Bushido2513

OBJnoob wrote: »

I'm curious where you, meaning Static and Metallic, would rank the build in this video in one of the classic PvP tier lists. Is it S tier? Is it A? B?

Do you play any other characters? Looking for honesty here... Not making any accusations, but curious to know what other characters you've tried this patch. Is it possible that you're just so stinking good at magsorc that you think it's better than it is?

Because while I do think balancing should take the ceiling into consideration I don't think an entire class needs to be judged by how the very best 2 or 5 can do. The average magsorc should also be comparable to the average of anything else, because most players are average.

OBJnoob wrote: »

I'm curious where you, meaning Static and Metallic, would rank the build in this video in one of the classic PvP tier lists. Is it S tier? Is it A? B?

Do you play any other characters? Looking for honesty here... Not making any accusations, but curious to know what other characters you've tried this patch. Is it possible that you're just so stinking good at magsorc that you think it's better than it is?

Because while I do think balancing should take the ceiling into consideration I don't think an entire class needs to be judged by how the very best 2 or 5 can do. The average magsorc should also be comparable to the average of anything else, because most players are average.

Exactly! It shouldn't be a case where picking up a class is just so easy but the same can't be said for another.

I'm not talking about being naturally good at a class. I'm talking about hey I know game mechanics decently well but somehow I can x on dk but not on sorc. That's not an uncommon scenario either.

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

@jaws343 Let me quote what your 3 suggestions are for buffing shields:

“- Remove the Health cap from shields altogether.
- Remove Shield reduction from Battlespirit, or at the very least, decrease the amount of reduction done
- Make Sorc Shield and Light Armor Shield override one another. So that, when you cast one with the other active it takes its place.”

Like, I don’t want to be negative but they sound ridiculous.

You’re essentially asking for one shield to have the same strength as 2 shields. It’s a ridiculous suggestion. If this is the case, why not remove healing reduction from Battle Spirit too while we’re at it lol?

What’s going to happen if your suggestions get implemented is every sorc will run around with a 20k ward, 2-3 HoTs, and be unkillable while having max damage. There’s zero balance.

That was one pass following on from another comment's suggestion. But, as there have been countless threads on this, I have offered a handful of different approaches and ideas.

At the end of the day though. I disagree. Shields are far inferior to healing in every way. And one of the worst defensive options in the game right now.

As long as they take crit damage and don't utilize block mitigation, they need to be implemented better. At a minimum, they need to take crit chance/damage into account to allow for a shield to crit on cast.

Not to mention, the health scaling was probably the dumbest thing they did to shields. It didn't need to happen. Making shields take critical damage was more than enough to reduce their effectiveness. But now, we have to deal with 3 different scaling mechanics for a shield that basically make them good enough to only take the damage of 1 attack + 1 light attack. Unless you are in execute, then they might as well not even exist.

Magsorc is supposed to be a high damage and mobile class with weak defense. I just don’t understand why people want the class buffed to the point that a literal mage with light armor can somehow sit and face tank multiple people like a brawler and also be able to zap around the battlefield nuking people at range. It doesn’t make any sense. Why play anything else then if magsorc can be a brawler and a ranged nuker lol?

The problem is that they don't currently have the damage you're speaking of. And no I'm not saying that the whole combo doesn't work if you land it all. I'm saying other classes have much easier access to damage and healing that perform sorc. A well played templar can nuke a sorc at range with more reliability due to a broken combo.

People only want to brawl with sorc because every other class can and at range sorc is mostly good for killing potatoes.

Now I'm fine with either bringing other classes in line or buffing sorc but if they won't do one you can expect people will ask for the other.

What do you mean they don’t have the damage? @MetallicMonk is hitting 10-11k frags…

I’m sorry but Templar is so bad this patch one has to purposely try to lose when fighting one. You should never ever lose to a Templar this patch.

Sorc is a high damage ranged nuker. There is no place for a sorc to facetank and brawl. That’s a bad game design by its core. A DK or a Plar has to get in melee range to brawl, and even if they play a ranged build, they still don’t have the same mobility as a sorc. Not even buffed Mist Form can compare to Streak in terms of mobility.

Again I agree that if you land the whole combo you're good but what do you do when you curse but they dodge the frag and a few overloads? You keep doing the rotation right? Except most classes can hit a 10k heal while doing more damage than you can. So yeah you streak around and do your rotation and sure they can't catch you most of the time but they can survive.

I enjoy sorc and play it for the challenge because I can't get into how much easier other classes are, not all of them but most.

So when I spoke of templar I was meaning while playing as sorc. If they are setup for a full balorg,meteor, javelin, radiant combo and know how to do it properly you're not surviving on sorc most times because you don't have the healing and it's a broken combo.

So I might be wrong on this one and I'm genuinely curious. Have you in recent times seen a sorc win a dueling tournament?

And honestly now that I think about it. I get what you're saying about being the mobile class with high damage but I can say from experience the damage when compared to players with equal ability on better classes doesn't match up on a good ratio.

Correct, that is exactly what you do when they dodge your Cfrag and Overload. Most players cannot dodge forever as they lack the stamina to do so. Only a select few can, such as a rollerblade or a build invested into Well Fitted. I personally don’t roll to avoid the combo, but I hold block until I can disrupt the combo with a stun.

What you want to do as a magsorc in that situation is just keep attacking. Magsorc is not just a burst class, but also a pressure class. I’ve talked about the difference between a Sorc vs a NB in terms of burst delivery before, but the gist of it is you have the ability to play as a pressure class due to the fact that your burst comes in waves, whereas a NB’s burst is very upfront.

So you just keep throwing your Cfrags and Overload at the guy. He will eventually eat 1 of them as he runs out of stamina and die. Even if you aren’t hitting him, you are still forcing him to waste stamina. It’s a win-win. It’s equivalent to me trying to run away from a magDK in Corrosive. I’m expending resources trying to survive. The DK may not be able to kill me, but he’s pressuring my resource sustain and that’s still very beneficial in a fight.

As a stamsorc main, I have fought many templars using Meteor + Purifying Light + Javelin + Jesus Beam. It was broken, no doubt about it. But Purifying Light has been nerfed, and that is a huge blow to the combo. You can survive it now whereas you couldn’t.

On PC NA i don’t think there are any tournaments going on. The last time a tournament happened, a sorc placed top 3, and templar won (not surprised). But that was months ago before the templar nerf.

You may feel the damage doesn’t match up, but that’s more of a confirmation bias. The reality is sorc HAS damage. It’s just easier to avoid the damage when Overload is not being used. Other classes also have the same issue. Wardens and Necros have issue killing good players because everyone blocks the Sub Assault and Blastbones. I do it all the time. Would you say they lack damage? Obviously not. All it takes is for 1 Sub/Blastbones to hit with other abilities and your entire HP bar gets deleted, and that’s exactly what sorc can also do.

StaticWave

OBJnoob wrote: »

I'm curious where you, meaning Static and Metallic, would rank the build in this video in one of the classic PvP tier lists. Is it S tier? Is it A? B?

Do you play any other characters? Looking for honesty here... Not making any accusations, but curious to know what other characters you've tried this patch. Is it possible that you're just so stinking good at magsorc that you think it's better than it is?

Because while I do think balancing should take the ceiling into consideration I don't think an entire class needs to be judged by how the very best 2 or 5 can do. The average magsorc should also be comparable to the average of anything else, because most players are average.

I know @MetallicMonk recently played a stamblade for months before going back to his magsorc and he even acknowledged that NB is so much easier than magsorc.

I personally play every stamina class (I’m a stamina main), and have also tried stamblade and came to the same conclusion as @MetallicMonk. I also played hybrid DK and hybrid Plar before the recent patch where Plar got severely gutted. Haven’t played Warden and Necro in the recent patch yet so I have no comment on that, but I don’t doubt Warden’s strength after the buffs.

We’ve both also dueled top tier NBs on our server and can fight on par with them. Plar used to be a lot of trouble and we would lose fights the majority of the time, but post-nerf Plar isn’t a threat anymore. DK is still DK. I’ve fought so many DKs I know how to counter them, but it’s still a hard fight at times. It’s a matter of building as much healing as possible and kite. Warden and Necros are pretty straightforward. You block the Sub/Blastbones, you’re safe. Although Wardens currently also use a few DoTs or a proc set, so it can be rough if you don’t have enough HoTs.

I think Sorc and NB are the 2 classes where the ceiling and the floor are too wide. An average NB/Sorc will have big trouble against the current top tier classes, but a top tier NB/Sorc will only have little trouble. If the goal is to close the gap between the ceiling and the floor, then by all means. I fully support that. However, overdoing it with buffs could turn sorc into another DK or pre-nerf Plar where you can’t even distinguish a good DK/Plar from an average one because both of them are able to kill/tank people so easily. This is why I keep arguing against buffing sorc, but rather reworking the passives and maybe add a burst heal.

Jsmalls

@Bushido2513

The damage is sub par in comparison to other classes that can have high defense, high heals, high burst, and high CC control (looking at you DKs).

@MetallicMonk

I'm sure he's a great Sorc, have no doubt in it. He's NOT hitting meta players for 10k frags, unless they are dropping their defense while fighting. We went through his setup stat for stat. I'm pushing a lot higher base damage and he's rocking 20%~ more crit damage. Nothing that's going to just push a typical 7-8k crit frag (which would be 6-7k before his extra crit damage) over 10k. We've already discussed Sorc's have zero issues smashing potatoes, which are the ones getting hit for 10k frags.

@StaticWave

My favorite part is when you said spam crystal frag and overload, like you can spam crystal frag and it doesn't at MINIMUM need an additional GCD to even have a 33% chance of getting one. Not to mention your argument about constant pressure is invalid. It's a burst class. What that means is it has intermittent pressure. And yes just keep throwing "pressure" while your 6 second active defense drops and you get turned on. Sorc's defense is mostly preemptive, semi reactive, but it means you have to spend gcds ensuring you don't get CC'd and killed instantly.

So let's break that down. You have a GCD that does no immediate damage (curse), burst that is dependent on RNG (frag), an execute not worth slotting (not worth the GCD unless you're in group play), then an additional GCD every six gcds to make sure your active defense doesn't go down, regardless of counter pressure. And if you're going to hope to stay on the offensive and burn stamina you'll CC them every 7~ gcds as well.

1 GCD shield, 1 GCD curse, 1 GCD spammable, 1 GCD frag (pray to rng), 1 GCD CC (streak), then back to your GCD to shield.

So where is the pressure. That's your burst setup for highest damage in the shortest GCDs. Your damage is done in 2 gcds (I prefer putting it into one with Imbue). Then it resets for the next 3-4 and you have virtually no damage (if sticking to utilizing your "burst").

Minor mangle or breach on curse, reworking our execute into something useable again, changes to passives, better synergy for crit / surge rework, frag projectile speed. Maybe fix overload so it doesn't break light attacks occasionally. Some areas to fix, not asking for everything but these options would make a big difference.

StaticWave

Jsmalls wrote: »

My favorite part is when you said spam crystal frag and overload, like you can spam crystal frag and it doesn't at MINIMUM need an additional GCD to even have a 33% chance of getting one. Not to mention your argument about constant pressure is invalid. It's a burst class. What that means is it has intermittent pressure. And yes just keep throwing "pressure" while your 6 second active defense drops and you get turned on. Sorc's defense is mostly preemptive, semi reactive, but it means you have to spend gcds ensuring you don't get CC'd and killed instantly.

@Jsmalls
When I said "You throw Cfrags and Overload at the guy", I didn't literally mean hard cast Cfrags. I meant use it whenever it's available. You spam Crushing Shock + Overload with a Curse every 3 second until Cfrag procs and you use it.

Your pressure is Curse every 3 seconds, Crushing Shock every 1 second, and Cfrag whenever it procs. That's pressure. You can call it invalid all you want, but I play on the same server as @MetallicMonk and have dueled him many times and that's exactly what he does when I spam roll. He just repeats the combo until I run out of stam. That's why I switched to blocking instead of rolling.

And when I said keep throwing pressure, I didn't literally mean not play defense lol. Of course you have to keep it up. But if you can control the tempo of a 1 vs1 fight by being aggressive, you can stop playing defense for a little while. It takes a lot of dueling to know when you can do that.

Jsmalls wrote: »

So let's break that down. You have a GCD that does no immediate damage (curse), burst that is dependent on RNG (frag), an execute not worth slotting (not worth the GCD unless you're in group play), then an additional GCD every six gcds to make sure your active defense doesn't go down, regardless of counter pressure. And if you're going to hope to stay on the offensive and burn stamina you'll CC them every 7~ gcds as well.

1 GCD shield, 1 GCD curse, 1 GCD spammable, 1 GCD frag (pray to rng), 1 GCD CC (streak), then back to your GCD to shield.

So where is the pressure. That's your burst setup for highest damage in the shortest GCDs. Your damage is done in 2 gcds (I prefer putting it into one with Imbue). Then it resets for the next 3-4 and you have virtually no damage (if sticking to utilizing your "burst").

The pressure is Crushing Shock + Curse every 3 seconds and Frag in between. That's pressure. Sorc's pressure is a bit different than other classes. It doesn't necessarily deal conventional pressure, but its pressure comes from doing big damage that spreads out over the course of a fight.

Again, idk how much dueling experience you have, but from my experience as a duelist, magsorc has a lot of pressure in a 1v1.

Jsmalls wrote: »

Minor mangle or breach on curse, reworking our execute into something useable again, changes to passives, better synergy for crit / surge rework, frag projectile speed. Maybe fix overload so it doesn't break light attacks occasionally. Some areas to fix, not asking for everything but these options would make a big difference.

I would not give Sorc any debuffs but rather just fix the passives and synergize with Crit Surge. Sorc does not lack damage at all.

OBJnoob

What's weird is I feel like we've had this discussion before, in a "I DO want sorc buffs," thread. I think I'm on record as saying I see plenty of magsorcs on my server and they do okay (mostly BG perspective,) and there's one stamsorc in particular, where I duel, that is one of the best duelers I've seen.

I feel like you were a little incredulous about it. And more certainly, I believe you told me a sorc hasn't won a dueling tournament on PC-NA in years and the last time it happened it was you who won.

Which... I'm not trying to accuse you of anything. I'm also on record as saying I appreciate your honesty in not wanting sorc over buffed or thinking they're worse than they are. BUT I'm ALSO on record (lol,) as warning sorc mains (I think this part was directed at Phoenix not you,) that trying to buff sorc and reminding everyone how they used to be OP in the same topic is detrimental to any change and confusing for participants that don't main sorc but would still like to see justice done.

I've been involved in most of these threads and have a decent memory. If my grip on the situation is starting to weaken, I wonder where that leaves other people?

Which is it? No buffs at all? Or major prophecy on crit surge and a burst heal? While I appreciate that this discussion likely won't play a part in whatever game changes actually happen I can tell from the effort you put in that being accurate and persuasive is important to you.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Correct, that is exactly what you do when they dodge your Cfrag and Overload. Most players cannot dodge forever as they lack the stamina to do so. Only a select few can, such as a rollerblade or a build invested into Well Fitted. I personally don’t roll to avoid the combo, but I hold block until I can disrupt the combo with a stun.

Well this is getting in the weeds a bit but the next part is really that classes like DK, NB, and possibly Warden can then deliver counter punches with more reliable and hard hitting combos and also have great mitigation and healing. Again I'm not saying sorc is a frail class that doesn't pack a punch. Just that perhaps it needs tweaks to allow the combo a better chance at landing given the inherrent mitigation and healing of some classes, or bring those classes in line a bit. Eithe solution would work. But having high damage that doesn't have the same level of support from the passives and the overall toolkit doesn't equal the high damage of the other classes like DK and NB especially when you add in their capacity to mitigate or heal up because they have better toolkits and supporting passives overall.

Belive it or not I don't want a sorc running aroound nuking people at range easily, same reason I don't really play DK or NB, easy gameplay isn't interesting to me. I just want sorc brought to the same level as other classes when it comes to ability to do damage and heal up. And yes I would only want the heal to be in line with how much mobility streak gives. That is to say I don't want sorc to run around a corner and instantly heal but I do want it to have a burst heal that's decent.

Though I will say if the new shield is that good then I could see reworking the build to accomodate. Just not sure how that will play out

StaticWave wrote: »

So you just keep throwing your Cfrags and Overload at the guy. He will eventually eat 1 of them as he runs out of stamina and die. Even if you aren’t hitting him, you are still forcing him to waste stamina. It’s a win-win. It’s equivalent to me trying to run away from a magDK in Corrosive. I’m expending resources trying to survive. The DK may not be able to kill me, but he’s pressuring my resource sustain and that’s still very beneficial in a fight.

.

As a note here due to passives, sustain sets, food choices, etc, most of the top classes like DK, NB, and to a different degree Warden can easily maintain their stamina with DK being the easiest just for using your ult and being built for ult gen. Obviously sorc also has a great sustain tool but what I'm saying is overall if both of you have sustain but one of you is better at turning that into mitigation and healing then the better toolkit will have the avantage when players are evenly matched.

StaticWave wrote: »

As a stamsorc main, I have fought many templars using Meteor + Purifying Light + Javelin + Jesus Beam. It was broken, no doubt about it. But Purifying Light has been nerfed, and that is a huge blow to the combo. You can survive it now whereas you couldn’t.

I can see surviving it but then you're left in a situation where they can basically repeat the combo as much as they want and you really can't do anything because they can just sit on rune, block, purify curse, and heal and just repeat till the smallest mistake possibly gets you. I'm not saying the sorc should always win here either and couldn't possibly stalemate and build ult but exe vs exe these two classes are clearly not on par and I feel that should be at least accounted for in the overal sorc toolkit. This is just one example mind you of skill/class comparison that I don't believe matches up. Not that I'm saying it's a vast difference but little difference add up too.

StaticWave wrote: »

On PC NA i don’t think there are any tournaments going on. The last time a tournament happened, a sorc placed top 3, and templar won (not surprised). But that was months ago before the templar nerf.

You may feel the damage doesn’t match up, but that’s more of a confirmation bias. The reality is sorc HAS damage. It’s just easier to avoid the damage when Overload is not being used. Other classes also have the same issue. Wardens and Necros have issue killing good players because everyone blocks the Sub Assault and Blastbones. I do it all the time. Would you say they lack damage? Obviously not. All it takes is for 1 Sub/Blastbones to hit with other abilities and your entire HP bar gets deleted, and that’s exactly what sorc can also do.

I'm not the all knowing tournament god but I've honestly never seen a sorc win one, come close yes but not win one. Not saying it never happened just that it doesn't happen to the same degree as other classes clearly.

You mentioned wardens and necros when you probably know I'm mostly aiming at NB and DK who have currently some of the best damage and mitigation. But ok even taking your example. Warden is right now a good but not top tier damage dealer nor is Necro and so yeah in that respect they make a good coparison to sorc. Honestly I think Warden has decent damage given that a lot of the toolkit is really dedicated to survival/healing. Warden to me is meant to be a team player that can also solo and so I feel like the damage and damage potential depending on how you build it lines up with those themes.

Necro is in a bad place and in some ways I feel even worse than sorc because most of the class abilities lack a good theme to build damage. I also don't see that many of them in pvp at the moment so I would say yes like any other class, they can secure a kill but it's not nearly as on par as the potential for a dk or nb to do so, though their healing and mitigation is obviously better than sorc.

Right now I suspect DK, NB, and Warden are the most popular classes in pvp so I will say that my commentary is more about that environment.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Again, idk how much dueling experience you have, but from my experience as a duelist, magsorc has a lot of pressure in a 1v1.

This was not directed to me but I just wanted to chime in here and say that personally I've had a lot of experience dueling and I do enjoy it on the occasions where I can get a good one in. That being said this is very true regarding the amount of pressure I feel when dueilng a magsorc. That being said the experience usually goes like this.

When I play on stamsorc or hybrid sorc, I feel the pressure and it's a close fight and there's decent back and forth. I'm decent with sorc and it could possibly be called my main out of all the classes I've played.

Now when I get on DK I find the fight is just much easier and I usually won't get killed and I might kill them even if due to the other person just getting tired. The interesting difference is that I don't really know how to play DK that well and am just relying on basic understanding of the class and the game. Block and coag just get rid of so many problems and I almost never run out of resources and I have passive damage when flames is up or dots are ticking.

Again, I'm not saying I obliterate sorc when I'm on DK but just pointing out that there's some kind of issue when I who don't know the class well can now hang with this ranged damage dealer and possibly kill them.

StaticWave

OBJnoob wrote: »

What's weird is I feel like we've had this discussion before, in a "I DO want sorc buffs," thread. I think I'm on record as saying I see plenty of magsorcs on my server and they do okay (mostly BG perspective,) and there's one stamsorc in particular, where I duel, that is one of the best duelers I've seen.

I feel like you were a little incredulous about it. And more certainly, I believe you told me a sorc hasn't won a dueling tournament on PC-NA in years and the last time it happened it was you who won.

Which... I'm not trying to accuse you of anything. I'm also on record as saying I appreciate your honesty in not wanting sorc over buffed or thinking they're worse than they are. BUT I'm ALSO on record (lol,) as warning sorc mains (I think this part was directed at Phoenix not you,) that trying to buff sorc and reminding everyone how they used to be OP in the same topic is detrimental to any change and confusing for participants that don't main sorc but would still like to see justice done.

I've been involved in most of these threads and have a decent memory. If my grip on the situation is starting to weaken, I wonder where that leaves other people?

Which is it? No buffs at all? Or major prophecy on crit surge and a burst heal? While I appreciate that this discussion likely won't play a part in whatever game changes actually happen I can tell from the effort you put in that being accurate and persuasive is important to you.

I did say I was the only STAMSORC that’s won a dueling tournament over 3-4 years. That was a stamsorc buff thread to be specific. I didn’t claim to be the only sorc, as there were magsorc mains who made it to top 3 or top 2 before dying to magplars.

I also said I am in favor of buffing sorc by fixing the current passives, giving the class more crit chance, and maybe a burst heal. So yes, definitely buff sorc, but don’t buff its damage or its shield.

StaticWave

@Bushido2513
Thanks for the very respectful replies. I have to clarify with you and @OBJnoob and other sorc mains that I actually want sorc buffs, but not what some people here are suggesting.

I’ve stated several times in many sorc threads that sorc as a class only needs to have its passives reworked to be on par with NB. It also needs a burst heal and better access to crit chance. That is all a sorc really needs.

What I am very much against is giving sorc Major/Minor debuffs on an already strong ability like Curse, and buffing shields.

Maybe I’m biased towards shields because I’ve fought so many good magsorcs that are just way too tanky in a full damage build and developed a strong dislike for shield stacking sorcs, but objectively, I don’t think buffing shield should be the way to go.

It would be more beneficial for sorc as a class to receive a burst heal over a buff to shield because now you can be on par with other classes in terms of survivability. Some adjustments need to be made to ensure that a sorc can’t use both Hardened Ward and a burst heal, but it should solve the current pain points of the class.

StaticWave

Also, I recently just purchased a decent gaming VPN and could finally play ESO again (with ~280ping compared to 100 ping like I used to have). I was still able to 1v1, but the latency made it slightly harder to barswap cancel and stuff. We’ll see how it goes.

Brrrofski

StaticWave wrote: »

@Bushido2513
Thanks for the very respectful replies. I have to clarify with you and @OBJnoob and other sorc mains that I actually want sorc buffs, but not what some people here are suggesting.

I’ve stated several times in many sorc threads that sorc as a class only needs to have its passives reworked to be on par with NB. It also needs a burst heal and better access to crit chance. That is all a sorc really needs.

What I am very much against is giving sorc Major/Minor debuffs on an already strong ability like Curse, and buffing shields.

Maybe I’m biased towards shields because I’ve fought so many good magsorcs that are just way too tanky in a full damage build and developed a strong dislike for shield stacking sorcs, but objectively, I don’t think buffing shield should be the way to go.

It would be more beneficial for sorc as a class to receive a burst heal over a buff to shield because now you can be on par with other classes in terms of survivability. Some adjustments need to be made to ensure that a sorc can’t use both Hardened Ward and a burst heal, but it should solve the current pain points of the class.

I don't want shield buffs either really.

A better heal is definitely needed. It doesn't have to be a dragon blood or honor the dead. But something other than vigor and crit surge. If you're outnumbered, crit surge quickly becomes useless if you're just in survival mode. Same with dark magic healing.

Yes, you can kite on a sorc, but then it's just "nerf streak, sorc too good at running away". Well yeh, because I can't hold block, press one button and get a 12k heal instantly.

Passives absolutely need looking at. If you don't play with a pet, most of those passive are trash. Some others are bad too.

Like for sustain. One passive is 10% mag regen and one is 20% health (who cares) and stam regen while a skill is slotted. NB just has 15% of all three in one passive without doing anything.

Yes, sorc has dark deal - but against a good player it's not reliable.

And lightning damage is kinda useless for most skills bar overload, mage's wrath (which isn't a skill you use all the time) and 1/3rd of crushing shock if you're using it.

Whatever the new version of implosion is called - why do I want to do less damage the lower health someone has?

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

@Bushido2513
Thanks for the very respectful replies. I have to clarify with you and @OBJnoob and other sorc mains that I actually want sorc buffs, but not what some people here are suggesting.

I’ve stated several times in many sorc threads that sorc as a class only needs to have its passives reworked to be on par with NB. It also needs a burst heal and better access to crit chance. That is all a sorc really needs.

What I am very much against is giving sorc Major/Minor debuffs on an already strong ability like Curse, and buffing shields.

Maybe I’m biased towards shields because I’ve fought so many good magsorcs that are just way too tanky in a full damage build and developed a strong dislike for shield stacking sorcs, but objectively, I don’t think buffing shield should be the way to go.

It would be more beneficial for sorc as a class to receive a burst heal over a buff to shield because now you can be on par with other classes in terms of survivability. Some adjustments need to be made to ensure that a sorc can’t use both Hardened Ward and a burst heal, but it should solve the current pain points of the class.

You're welcome, I always think these exchanges should be respectful and hopefully provide some type of insight.

I think overall our goals are similar and I'm fine with getting there through better passives, burst heal, and maybe reworked skills.

I do agree with you on shields easily becoming possibly overpowered. What I would like to see is the ability for sorc to be more survivable against multiple players. Yes of course streak with say major expedition is very strong but in today's damage meta I still find that it's almost too stark of a choice between damage and survival for sorc, which is ok to some degree but not against other classes that don't have to make similar sacrifices.

Bushido2513

Brrrofski wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

@Bushido2513
Thanks for the very respectful replies. I have to clarify with you and @OBJnoob and other sorc mains that I actually want sorc buffs, but not what some people here are suggesting.

I’ve stated several times in many sorc threads that sorc as a class only needs to have its passives reworked to be on par with NB. It also needs a burst heal and better access to crit chance. That is all a sorc really needs.

What I am very much against is giving sorc Major/Minor debuffs on an already strong ability like Curse, and buffing shields.

Maybe I’m biased towards shields because I’ve fought so many good magsorcs that are just way too tanky in a full damage build and developed a strong dislike for shield stacking sorcs, but objectively, I don’t think buffing shield should be the way to go.

It would be more beneficial for sorc as a class to receive a burst heal over a buff to shield because now you can be on par with other classes in terms of survivability. Some adjustments need to be made to ensure that a sorc can’t use both Hardened Ward and a burst heal, but it should solve the current pain points of the class.

Yes, sorc has dark deal - but against a good player it's not reliable.

Your whole post was on point. I just mention this part because it made me think what if dark deal had a secondary effect where if bashed you heal for x.

Side note what's up with that bug where if I streak then dark deal and get hit by crushing shock it not only interrupts but tries to drag be back to there I was before streak with controls locked out? That's gotten me killed soooo many times!

OBJnoob

@StaticWave Okay thanks for clarifying. But out of curiosity have any magsorcs won any dueling tournaments? Because if you at least won 1 but they're coming in 2nd or 3rd then that's not good, eh?

But I also understand if the year(s) where you participated were dominated by templars and so the metric is skewed. I remember templars being stupid OP for what felt like years. I'm one person who was very glad when they got nerfed -ducks rotten tomatos.- I actually lost a good PvP friend from dueling his plar. It was supposed to be a friendly duel since we were friends and nothing was at stake. He stood there in his rune heavy attacking me between 500 balorg Destro ults and on the 3rd try he got me. He said gg and I told him it wasn't a very gg at all 🤣

AdamLAD

I want wards to be the size of Elon musks bank account no cap

StaticWave

OBJnoob wrote: »

@StaticWave Okay thanks for clarifying. But out of curiosity have any magsorcs won any dueling tournaments? Because if you at least won 1 but they're coming in 2nd or 3rd then that's not good, eh?

But I also understand if the year(s) where you participated were dominated by templars and so the metric is skewed. I remember templars being stupid OP for what felt like years. I'm one person who was very glad when they got nerfed -ducks rotten tomatos.- I actually lost a good PvP friend from dueling his plar. It was supposed to be a friendly duel since we were friends and nothing was at stake. He stood there in his rune heavy attacking me between 500 balorg Destro ults and on the 3rd try he got me. He said gg and I told him it wasn't a very gg at all 🤣

I don’t think a magsorc won at all. The furthest a magsorc got to was top 2, then it would just get eliminated by a DK or a templar lol.

Templars and DKs dominated the dueling scene for several years. I was lucky to have won that tournament because there was a top tier magplar and top tier magdk in it lol. Old Mechanical Acuity helped me win but it was a one time thing. Wish they never nerfed that set tbh.

MetallicMonk

My entire opinion on this is just that I don't want sorcerer to be overbuffed and especially in the wrong areas and become what nightblade is to me now, boring. I was half serious and half joking when I made the thread but the true part is I don't really agree with the popular mindset we shouldn't be nerfing classes we should be buffing the underperforming ones, I absolutely think some classes like nightblade and dragonknight need nerfs. I don't want everybody on a homogenized roided up version of their class that completely ignores any of the classes intended weaknesses and playstyle.

I definitely think sorc could use some quality of life changes and some small buffs, shield cost reduction, something to beef up the defense a bit, access to one more buff or debuff in our class kit to have one more free slot on the bar, something along those lines would be great though I'm not really big on the burst heal idea.

It's just my opinion and I know people of varying experience want to play sorc but I just appreciate that it's one of the classes that feels a lot better with time put into it and always has been since I've played. Also I think people who are trying to enjoy it in more casual lower level aspects shouldn't have high standards necessarily too, I see a lot of lightning heavy attack builds lately from sorcerer in PvP and PvE and they seem to perform well enough for someone who isn't willing or able to make it work in more demanding situations.

So yeah buff sorc just don't go insane with it.

Bushido2513

MetallicMonk wrote: »

My entire opinion on this is just that I don't want sorcerer to be overbuffed and especially in the wrong areas and become what nightblade is to me now, boring. I was half serious and half joking when I made the thread but the true part is I don't really agree with the popular mindset we shouldn't be nerfing classes we should be buffing the underperforming ones, I absolutely think some classes like nightblade and dragonknight need nerfs. I don't want everybody on a homogenized roided up version of their class that completely ignores any of the classes intended weaknesses and playstyle.



It's just my opinion and I know people of varying experience want to play sorc but I just appreciate that it's one of the classes that feels a lot better with time put into it and always has been since I've played.

I very much agree with these ideas. I really enjoy the idea of a class that gives an experience that matches the effort you've put in and sorc definitely has given that feeling over the years here and there.

At this point I feel the power creep of other classes, population ups/downs, lag, etc has made this a harder experience to have.

For what it's worth most of my thoughts are based on gameplay in IC which is different in my opinion from bgs, open, world, or even pure 1v1. I say that to say that I believe others might be thinking of scenarios where they want sorc to be better which might require different buffs or tweaks.

I'd like to see sorc get to a point where skill is still very important but there's more room to adapt the build to the scenario you play, with obvious sacrifices of course.

Zabagad

MetallicMonk wrote: »

My entire opinion on this is just that I don't want sorcerer to be overbuffed and especially in the wrong areas and become what nightblade is to me now, boring. I was half serious and half joking when I made the thread but the true part is I don't really agree with the popular mindset we shouldn't be nerfing classes we should be buffing the underperforming ones, I absolutely think some classes like nightblade and dragonknight need nerfs. I don't want everybody on a homogenized roided up version of their class that completely ignores any of the classes intended weaknesses and playstyle.

I definitely think sorc could use some quality of life changes and some small buffs, shield cost reduction, something to beef up the defense a bit, access to one more buff or debuff in our class kit to have one more free slot on the bar, something along those lines would be great though I'm not really big on the burst heal idea.

It's just my opinion and I know people of varying experience want to play sorc but I just appreciate that it's one of the classes that feels a lot better with time put into it and always has been since I've played. Also I think people who are trying to enjoy it in more casual lower level aspects shouldn't have high standards necessarily too, I see a lot of lightning heavy attack builds lately from sorcerer in PvP and PvE and they seem to perform well enough for someone who isn't willing or able to make it work in more demanding situations.

So yeah buff sorc just don't go insane with it.

This sounds much better then your inital post and the headline

As an average (maybe slightly below avg?) mag sorc player I suffer since hybrid update.
I would be totally happy with 2 small changes:
1) Give us major prophecy (and savagery) in our passives or on curse or whatever (but not on pets pls)
2) Remove the cast time on frag (if that would be OP? --> reduce the damage to "standard" but keep current proc damage as it is) so that we can finally use it as our class internal spammable.

With these two changes we get 2 barslots free (magelight and CS) and this would give us many options to build for/with.

My 3rd wish

would be that our internal shields could crit. (or we get a flat increase with the crit chance * crit dmg formula - eg 40% chance with 50% critdmg equals 20% bigger) I personly think that it would be fair compared to heals, but because this already was discussed back and forth and so its not my main point here

StaticWave

Zabagad wrote: »

MetallicMonk wrote: »

My entire opinion on this is just that I don't want sorcerer to be overbuffed and especially in the wrong areas and become what nightblade is to me now, boring. I was half serious and half joking when I made the thread but the true part is I don't really agree with the popular mindset we shouldn't be nerfing classes we should be buffing the underperforming ones, I absolutely think some classes like nightblade and dragonknight need nerfs. I don't want everybody on a homogenized roided up version of their class that completely ignores any of the classes intended weaknesses and playstyle.

I definitely think sorc could use some quality of life changes and some small buffs, shield cost reduction, something to beef up the defense a bit, access to one more buff or debuff in our class kit to have one more free slot on the bar, something along those lines would be great though I'm not really big on the burst heal idea.

It's just my opinion and I know people of varying experience want to play sorc but I just appreciate that it's one of the classes that feels a lot better with time put into it and always has been since I've played. Also I think people who are trying to enjoy it in more casual lower level aspects shouldn't have high standards necessarily too, I see a lot of lightning heavy attack builds lately from sorcerer in PvP and PvE and they seem to perform well enough for someone who isn't willing or able to make it work in more demanding situations.

So yeah buff sorc just don't go insane with it.

This sounds much better then your inital post and the headline

As an average (maybe slightly below avg?) mag sorc player I suffer since hybrid update.
I would be totally happy with 2 small changes:
1) Give us major prophecy (and savagery) in our passives or on curse or whatever (but not on pets pls)
2) Remove the cast time on frag (if that would be OP? --> reduce the damage to "standard" but keep current proc damage as it is) so that we can finally use it as our class internal spammable.

With these two changes we get 2 barslots free (magelight and CS) and this would give us many options to build for/with.

My 3rd wish

would be that our internal shields could crit. (or we get a flat increase with the crit chance * crit dmg formula - eg 40% chance with 50% critdmg equals 20% bigger) I personly think that it would be fair compared to heals, but because this already was discussed back and forth and so its not my main point here

Removing the cast time on Cfrag and reducing the dmg would make the ability weaker, fyi. Also, we already have something like that and it’s called Cwep.

jaws343

Zabagad wrote: »

MetallicMonk wrote: »

My entire opinion on this is just that I don't want sorcerer to be overbuffed and especially in the wrong areas and become what nightblade is to me now, boring. I was half serious and half joking when I made the thread but the true part is I don't really agree with the popular mindset we shouldn't be nerfing classes we should be buffing the underperforming ones, I absolutely think some classes like nightblade and dragonknight need nerfs. I don't want everybody on a homogenized roided up version of their class that completely ignores any of the classes intended weaknesses and playstyle.

I definitely think sorc could use some quality of life changes and some small buffs, shield cost reduction, something to beef up the defense a bit, access to one more buff or debuff in our class kit to have one more free slot on the bar, something along those lines would be great though I'm not really big on the burst heal idea.

It's just my opinion and I know people of varying experience want to play sorc but I just appreciate that it's one of the classes that feels a lot better with time put into it and always has been since I've played. Also I think people who are trying to enjoy it in more casual lower level aspects shouldn't have high standards necessarily too, I see a lot of lightning heavy attack builds lately from sorcerer in PvP and PvE and they seem to perform well enough for someone who isn't willing or able to make it work in more demanding situations.

So yeah buff sorc just don't go insane with it.

This sounds much better then your inital post and the headline

As an average (maybe slightly below avg?) mag sorc player I suffer since hybrid update.
I would be totally happy with 2 small changes:
1) Give us major prophecy (and savagery) in our passives or on curse or whatever (but not on pets pls)
2) Remove the cast time on frag (if that would be OP? --> reduce the damage to "standard" but keep current proc damage as it is) so that we can finally use it as our class internal spammable.

With these two changes we get 2 barslots free (magelight and CS) and this would give us many options to build for/with.

My 3rd wish

would be that our internal shields could crit. (or we get a flat increase with the crit chance * crit dmg formula - eg 40% chance with 50% critdmg equals 20% bigger) I personly think that it would be fair compared to heals, but because this already was discussed back and forth and so its not my main point here

In another thread, I raised that they could remove the Frag cast time, but reduce the proc % for self-proc on frag to 10%. Other skills triggering the proc would be the same, but if you just spam cast frag like a spammable, you would only get a 10% chance at that proc for more damage.

ForumBully

StaticWave wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

MetallicMonk wrote: »

My entire opinion on this is just that I don't want sorcerer to be overbuffed and especially in the wrong areas and become what nightblade is to me now, boring. I was half serious and half joking when I made the thread but the true part is I don't really agree with the popular mindset we shouldn't be nerfing classes we should be buffing the underperforming ones, I absolutely think some classes like nightblade and dragonknight need nerfs. I don't want everybody on a homogenized roided up version of their class that completely ignores any of the classes intended weaknesses and playstyle.

I definitely think sorc could use some quality of life changes and some small buffs, shield cost reduction, something to beef up the defense a bit, access to one more buff or debuff in our class kit to have one more free slot on the bar, something along those lines would be great though I'm not really big on the burst heal idea.

It's just my opinion and I know people of varying experience want to play sorc but I just appreciate that it's one of the classes that feels a lot better with time put into it and always has been since I've played. Also I think people who are trying to enjoy it in more casual lower level aspects shouldn't have high standards necessarily too, I see a lot of lightning heavy attack builds lately from sorcerer in PvP and PvE and they seem to perform well enough for someone who isn't willing or able to make it work in more demanding situations.

So yeah buff sorc just don't go insane with it.

This sounds much better then your inital post and the headline

As an average (maybe slightly below avg?) mag sorc player I suffer since hybrid update.
I would be totally happy with 2 small changes:
1) Give us major prophecy (and savagery) in our passives or on curse or whatever (but not on pets pls)
2) Remove the cast time on frag (if that would be OP? --> reduce the damage to "standard" but keep current proc damage as it is) so that we can finally use it as our class internal spammable.

With these two changes we get 2 barslots free (magelight and CS) and this would give us many options to build for/with.

My 3rd wish

would be that our internal shields could crit. (or we get a flat increase with the crit chance * crit dmg formula - eg 40% chance with 50% critdmg equals 20% bigger) I personly think that it would be fair compared to heals, but because this already was discussed back and forth and so its not my main point here

Removing the cast time on Cfrag and reducing the dmg would make the ability weaker, fyi. Also, we already have something like that and it’s called Cwep.

Yeah, I definitely don't want to see CFrags reduced to a baseline spammable, I'm quite happy with Crushing or CWep as that option. If they want to give Crushing a little more by way of revisiting the destro line, great, but CFrags should remain as is.

Zabagad

StaticWave wrote: »

Removing the cast time on Cfrag and reducing the dmg would make the ability weaker, fyi. Also, we already have something like that and it’s called Cwep.

I just wanted to point out, that I'm ok if they have to adjust it - otherwise you and others would say "it's OP" anyways.

ForumBully wrote: »

Yeah, I definitely don't want to see CFrags reduced to a baseline spammable, I'm quite happy with Crushing or CWep as that option. If they want to give Crushing a little more by way of revisiting the destro line, great, but CFrags should remain as is.

Who would be hurt if the hardcast dmg would be less? I don't know any sorc who use the hardcast frag anyway.
And I didn't say it must be reduced - It's only something I would accept if the excel guy needs to get it in line with his standard.
I only want an option to get one barslot free - if you want to fill that slot with CS you are free to do so

jaws343 wrote: »

In another thread, I raised that they could remove the Frag cast time, but reduce the proc % for self-proc on frag to 10%. Other skills triggering the proc would be the same, but if you just spam cast frag like a spammable, you would only get a 10% chance at that proc for more damage.

I'm not sure if I would like that I guess in that case I would still use CS

ForumBully

Zabagad wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Removing the cast time on Cfrag and reducing the dmg would make the ability weaker, fyi. Also, we already have something like that and it’s called Cwep.

I just wanted to point out, that I'm ok if they have to adjust it - otherwise you and others would say "it's OP" anyways.

ForumBully wrote: »

Yeah, I definitely don't want to see CFrags reduced to a baseline spammable, I'm quite happy with Crushing or CWep as that option. If they want to give Crushing a little more by way of revisiting the destro line, great, but CFrags should remain as is.

Who would be hurt if the hardcast dmg would be less? I don't know any sorc who use the hardcast frag anyway.
And I didn't say it must be reduced - It's only something I would accept if the excel guy needs to get it in line with his standard.
I only want an option to get one barslot free - if you want to fill that slot with CS you are free to do so

Maybe we're crossing our lines here, but CWep is the spammable and CFrags is the proc burst...I don't typically run CWep because I find it unreliable needing the LAs to land in open world and lag, so I don't have any strong feelings about what gets done with that morph, but I love CFrag, not for the hard cast but for the proc cast....compared to something like spectral bow it's a dream...and yes I know spec bow is miles ahead on damage, it's not nearly as easy to use or land as CFrags which procs all the time.
I would be hurt if CFrags wasn't what it is and became some generic spammable.