I do not want Sorcerer buffs.

Turtle_Bot

Caribou77 wrote: »

@OBJnoob & @Turtle_Bot Yes, this makes sense to me and I can support this.

I still kinda want major breach on haunting curse though, because the animation/cast time on elemental susceptibility is weirdly mushy and slow, and seems to take a couple of seconds that I don't really have to spare on Magsorc.

I'm not very good on Magsorc, so I'm a bit greedy.

I would like it too, but with ele sus being in a good spot and frost staff for back bar being close to meta for PvP, there's not much need for it right now.

StaticWave

OBJnoob wrote: »

@Turtle_Bot I've always been a "give them breach and a burst heal," guy, but I have to say your last post makes a lot of sense.

So in-class access to major savagery/prophecy AND fix up one of their burst heals. Could these be the two things we all agree to compromise and be united in? @StaticWave ? @Caribou77 ?

That sounds reasonable.

Btw, the reasoning behind my statement that giving Breach to sorc’s class abilities might push for extreme pressure builds is because you’d free up a slot for Bound Arms. Bound Arms on a decent build can already crit for 10k total, so having Crushing Shock + Curse + Frag + Bound Arms will do a TON of damage and might push it over the top. It would also make some hybrid proc sorc builds too strong offensively as well.

StaticWave

Caribou77 wrote: »

Can you send me your build, Static?

Damage on my Magsorc is mediocre. I BG a lot, and get many assists, but few kills. Granted, I'm not a Mages Wrath spamming/kill thief, and I like to use streak to stay in the action rather than sit back at range. So maybe it's just my stupid playing preference.

To be clear: I don't doubt that your damage is good, S. I just don't know how you're getting it, while maintaining enough defense to avoid getting squashed by DKs & Assassin's Will.

If you share your build, I won't tell anyone else what it is.

I’m a stamsorc main so I mostly run stamsets for my hybrid ranged sorc.

However, @MetallicMonk and several good magsorcs are running Chudan + Rallying Cry front bar + Wretched Vitality back bar + DDF with >80% crit dmg. They’re doing very well afaik.

StaticWave

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

@Turtle_Bot I've always been a "give them breach and a burst heal," guy, but I have to say your last post makes a lot of sense.

So in-class access to major savagery/prophecy AND fix up one of their burst heals. Could these be the two things we all agree to compromise and be united in? @StaticWave ? @Caribou77 ?

There's still the issue of outdated/non-synergistic passives, but if we got those 2 things (major prophecy/savagery and a proper self burst heal for pvp not tied to pets or cast time) I could live with the current state of passives for a while longer

This is ideally what I would push for. Having a burst heal (main issue), some changes to passives, and Savagery if they’re generous.

My HoTs are strong enough to keep me alive but the lack of tools to recover from burst is still a major weakness. Just having one burst heal would solve all of that.

Bushido2513

ForumBully wrote: »

KilianDermoth wrote: »

I wasnt talking about healing.

But yeah templars get that on top. too. So Sorcs shouldnt be able to heal because they dont have a heal skill line.

They dont really do reliable damage, often out of class skills have to be used for reliable damage, something any class can do btw. - often even better than the Sorcs.

Also they dont even have a dedicated damage skill line nor a dedicated tank skill line. Its all scatterd around and some of the skills are barely used / useful at all or are very very very situational...

What are they supposed to be? Tanks? Which is possible on any class btw. and on some even easier / better than on a Sorc (DK for example)...

But yeah for tanking Sorcs are quite useful in my opinion they are even better than templars, but for the rest...

Well...if you think Templars are in a better spot than Sorc I don't think we'll find much common ground. All the best.

I think it depends on the scenario as to which is in a better spot. I'm biased towards sorc so I can't exactly say however I've also seen a good templar reliably x and get ranged kills back to back. At range they do basically have a combo that's pretty much a lock for a kill. Sorc has more of an overall ranged tool set but no busted execute to go with it lol

Bushido2513

allan0n wrote: »

Dude I'd settle for just giving Crit Surge major savagery at this point. I've given up on ever getting a burst heal half as good as healthy offering or render flesh that isnt tied to a stupid pet that needs to be double barred. Throw us something besides ward buffs, please, for christ.

A reliable burst heal would see sorc quickly rise in PVP ranks so yeah none of that lol. Go around the corner and dark deal like the rest of us 😂

AdamLAD

The fact people are still going on about sorc in all aspects proves a point that the class, regardless weather be stam or mag is not good and adjustments need to be made carefully. Stamina is obviously in a better spot and so is hybridization sorc In comparison to a pure magicka sorcerer.

OBJnoob

I agree, to a certain extent, that magsorc with a burst heal might be problematic. But I, for one, am not talking about giving them anything new or crazy OP. I just think their pets (case in point, matriarch,) should be made unkillable. The drawback would continue to be that you have to double-bar it. And also you couldn't LoS behind it anymore either, because it'd be untargetable.

I don't feel like they need a perfect burst heal-- they just need one of their 2 to be more reliable than it is.

AdamLAD

It's a tricky one. Imagine stam sorc with vigor, crit Surge, rally, darkdeal and a burst heal. Imagine a mag sorc with 2 big burst heals with pet and another one. I understand the sentiment. But if you give sorc a burst heal simply due to the fact one aspect of the class needs it, its prone to overbuff the other ways of playing the class. It's a difficult one because I agree we have no reliable burst heal, but we don't need to ADD another one on top. We need to rework the existing ones

Chilly-McFreeze

But stacking vigor, rally, offering, path and leeching is okay?

OBJnoob

@AdamLAD but exactly. Rework the existing one(s) is what I'm suggesting. And I choose matriarch because I think dark deal is kinda a cool and unique sustain tool. I would even be okay with matriarch being single-barred but I think it's damage would need to be removed for this to be fair. And I might even say that if matriarch is unkillable AND single-barred then the healing portion of Dark Deal could be removed. Replace it with 8 seconds of major or minor vitality-- something like that.

I do think you're a little over-worried about one small detail though. Why would a stamsorc use crit surge, rally, AND another burst heal? There's a lot of overlap there I think most people would find other things to do with their bar space. A shield most likely, if defense is still needed.

StaticWave

OBJnoob wrote: »

@AdamLAD but exactly. Rework the existing one(s) is what I'm suggesting. And I choose matriarch because I think dark deal is kinda a cool and unique sustain tool. I would even be okay with matriarch being single-barred but I think it's damage would need to be removed for this to be fair. And I might even say that if matriarch is unkillable AND single-barred then the healing portion of Dark Deal could be removed. Replace it with 8 seconds of major or minor vitality-- something like that.

I do think you're a little over-worried about one small detail though. Why would a stamsorc use crit surge, rally, AND another burst heal? There's a lot of overlap there I think most people would find other things to do with their bar space. A shield most likely, if defense is still needed.

The heal needs to be on the other morph of shield, or it would be too strong to have a burst heal and a shield together.

It would be like fighting a DK with Ferocious Leap shield and Coag, but the shield can be casted at will. Too strong and will most likely get nerfed.

PhoenixGrey

Caribou77 wrote: »

Can you send me your build, Static?

Damage on my Magsorc is mediocre. I BG a lot, and get many assists, but few kills. Granted, I'm not a Mages Wrath spamming/kill thief, and I like to use streak to stay in the action rather than sit back at range. So maybe it's just my stupid playing preference.

To be clear: I don't doubt that your damage is good, S. I just don't know how you're getting it, while maintaining enough defense to avoid getting squashed by DKs & Assassin's Will.

If you share your build, I won't tell anyone else what it is.

You need to run ele suscep with sharpened and rallying cry.

Everything else is variable depending on playstyle

Mag sorc is literally surviving due to rallying cry as it takes you back to the time when your shields did not take crit damage.

Without that I m pretty sure I can 2 shot a mag sorc through their shields however good a player they might be

OBJnoob

StaticWave wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

@AdamLAD but exactly. Rework the existing one(s) is what I'm suggesting. And I choose matriarch because I think dark deal is kinda a cool and unique sustain tool. I would even be okay with matriarch being single-barred but I think it's damage would need to be removed for this to be fair. And I might even say that if matriarch is unkillable AND single-barred then the healing portion of Dark Deal could be removed. Replace it with 8 seconds of major or minor vitality-- something like that.

I do think you're a little over-worried about one small detail though. Why would a stamsorc use crit surge, rally, AND another burst heal? There's a lot of overlap there I think most people would find other things to do with their bar space. A shield most likely, if defense is still needed.

The heal needs to be on the other morph of shield, or it would be too strong to have a burst heal and a shield together.

It would be like fighting a DK with Ferocious Leap shield and Coag, but the shield can be casted at will. Too strong and will most likely get nerfed.

See I don't get this. They already have a burst heal and shield and everybody says they suck. If simply having a burst heal makes them OP im not sure what we're fighting for. Giving them a heal but taking away their shield doesn't seem like a buff to me it seems like a horizontal shift.

PhoenixGrey

StaticWave wrote: »

They’re doing very well afaik.

no

PhoenixGrey

StaticWave wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

@AdamLAD but exactly. Rework the existing one(s) is what I'm suggesting. And I choose matriarch because I think dark deal is kinda a cool and unique sustain tool. I would even be okay with matriarch being single-barred but I think it's damage would need to be removed for this to be fair. And I might even say that if matriarch is unkillable AND single-barred then the healing portion of Dark Deal could be removed. Replace it with 8 seconds of major or minor vitality-- something like that.

I do think you're a little over-worried about one small detail though. Why would a stamsorc use crit surge, rally, AND another burst heal? There's a lot of overlap there I think most people would find other things to do with their bar space. A shield most likely, if defense is still needed.

The heal needs to be on the other morph of shield, or it would be too strong to have a burst heal and a shield together.

It would be like fighting a DK with Ferocious Leap shield and Coag, but the shield can be casted at will. Too strong and will most likely get nerfed.

Mag sorc doesn’t need a heal nor does it need > 20k health or > 12k stam if shields worked properly

Caribou77

One key point @AdamLAD made awhile back is that hybridization was bad for Magsorc, bc the way it was implemented, Stamsorc (or Stamwarden, for that matter) will always be stronger than its magicka counterpart, given the weak state of light armor, staves, etc.

This makes adjustments to Magsorc contingent on not overpowering Stamsorc, a fine-tuned approach that is not often seen.

For me, critical Magsorc skills like Crystal Frags or Mages Wrath, just don’t compare to the speed, damage, and utility of NBs toolkit or even the basic stam weapon skills like Spin to Win or Executioner.

I’ve become pretty good at predicting what’s next in a pvp match, and quickly hitting buttons/skills moments before theyre needed (streak, matriarch heal), but when a good Stamsorc or NB jumps me, it seems theyre able to land assassins will plus three concealed weapons while I have hit streak three times and it hasnt fired yet.

I dont think its just lag. I think alot of older/magsorc skills simply don’t fire as fast.

Turtle_Bot

OBJnoob wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

@AdamLAD but exactly. Rework the existing one(s) is what I'm suggesting. And I choose matriarch because I think dark deal is kinda a cool and unique sustain tool. I would even be okay with matriarch being single-barred but I think it's damage would need to be removed for this to be fair. And I might even say that if matriarch is unkillable AND single-barred then the healing portion of Dark Deal could be removed. Replace it with 8 seconds of major or minor vitality-- something like that.

I do think you're a little over-worried about one small detail though. Why would a stamsorc use crit surge, rally, AND another burst heal? There's a lot of overlap there I think most people would find other things to do with their bar space. A shield most likely, if defense is still needed.

The heal needs to be on the other morph of shield, or it would be too strong to have a burst heal and a shield together.

It would be like fighting a DK with Ferocious Leap shield and Coag, but the shield can be casted at will. Too strong and will most likely get nerfed.

See I don't get this. They already have a burst heal and shield and everybody says they suck. If simply having a burst heal makes them OP im not sure what we're fighting for. Giving them a heal but taking away their shield doesn't seem like a buff to me it seems like a horizontal shift.

It's all about how those skills have been implemented and the mechanics of those skills (hence why it can't be fixed with a simple numbers buff and why there was such backlash to the proposed shield buff this PTS).

The heals "suck" because they're tied to negative mechanics with regard to using a heal (pets being killable, dark deal being delayed and interruptible and crit surge requiring dealing critical damage) because these mechanics, unlike NB's "downside" of a tiny DoT that applies after the burst heal, can flat out deny the heal entirely.

Healing is generally 1 of 2 things
- On demand that you use when you're in trouble (burst heals)
or
- Passive that is just there acting as additional mitigation/health (HoTs)

But sorc heals function differently. The HoT isn't "just there" providing that additional pseudo mitigation/health. It requires you to be actively damaging a target with critical damage to get it. The burst heals aren't on demand because they are tied to mechanics that allow for the ability itself to be denied at any time and as such, they have a delay on the actual heal.

These downsides used to be tolerable because the much larger (and mechanically stronger) shields back then could provide similar mitigation to block casting heals and as such they provided a viable buffer to allow the time for the delayed healing to work as it was needed. The other difference is that the speed between now and then is also massive, streak just isn't as much of a gap creation tool as it used to be now that everyone can run around at speed cap for almost no investment (a couple of jewelry traits, medium armor, CP and RaT which doubles up with minor force and snare removal/immunity) compared to back then where no-one in heavy armor could come close to speed cap, snare removal was much harder to come by and it took real investment (5 piece sets or choosing sorc/NB specifically) to get near the speed cap.

Giving sorc a reliable burst heal, not tied to pets/cast time would definitely make them stronger, but not as strong as many people seem to think. I say this because I played magsorc back in U33 when resto staves were BiS back bar and as such, sorc had access to both a reliable burst heal and a BiS HoT. Radiating was BiS and blessings of protection was a good AoE burst heal and the class was in a good spot (similar to pvp warden next patch), but definitely not OP.

I ask for 1 shield morph to be made into a reliable burst heal for a few reasons:
- It provides sorc with an option to go with shields or heals (opens up other build options for the class and allows sorc players to "play how they want").
- It helps both mag and stamsorc at the same time and when I say mag, I mean the long forgotten shieldless and/or petless sorcs that used to be viable before pets were forced upon the class then left to become outdated/a liability in PvP.
- Lastly, and very importantly, this way they can turn around and calm down those who a crying about sorc having reliable healing stacked with big shields being "OP" because it physically cannot happen.

Is it a side-grade? Technically yes. But most importantly, it's a tolerable fix to the class that realistically should have happened back when the changes to the damage formula and hybridization happened that took a lot away from sorc in general, more than most care to admit, while giving very little back in return.

StaticWave

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

They’re doing very well afaik.

no

elaborate?

StaticWave

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

@AdamLAD but exactly. Rework the existing one(s) is what I'm suggesting. And I choose matriarch because I think dark deal is kinda a cool and unique sustain tool. I would even be okay with matriarch being single-barred but I think it's damage would need to be removed for this to be fair. And I might even say that if matriarch is unkillable AND single-barred then the healing portion of Dark Deal could be removed. Replace it with 8 seconds of major or minor vitality-- something like that.

I do think you're a little over-worried about one small detail though. Why would a stamsorc use crit surge, rally, AND another burst heal? There's a lot of overlap there I think most people would find other things to do with their bar space. A shield most likely, if defense is still needed.

The heal needs to be on the other morph of shield, or it would be too strong to have a burst heal and a shield together.

It would be like fighting a DK with Ferocious Leap shield and Coag, but the shield can be casted at will. Too strong and will most likely get nerfed.

Mag sorc doesn’t need a heal nor does it need > 20k health or > 12k stam if shields worked properly

And by working properly you mean old shields that NEEDED to be nerfed? Yea no thanks. I don't want to fight a magsorc with 16k HP and 30k shields that takes zero crit damage. If that ever comes back then bring back old Shield Breaker.

StaticWave

Old shield stacking was one of the most broken things in the game and deserved all the nerfs it got. You literally had to be a full damage NB to even have a chance at killing a decent magsorc. Wearing full damage on any other stam class and you would get one shotted before you could even make a dent in the sorc's HP.

I remember fighting a very decent magsorc on PC NA and whenever I got him to 5% HP he would slap on 25k shields as I was spamming execute in a full damage stamsorc build with each hit dealing 9-10k dmg and I still couldn't go through his shields.

Of course hybridization changed all of that but let's not pretend shields weren't broken.

ForumBully

I am curious to see how the shields of then would stack up to the damage of now...but they were pretty strong

StaticWave

ForumBully wrote: »

I am curious to see how the shields of then would stack up to the damage of now...but they were pretty strong

It would be very strong. Shields used to take zero crit damage and received zero mitigation from armor. Now, most sorcs run around in sub 20k armor, so the mitigation from armor applying to shield is useless as most of them are being fully penned anyways. However shields would be very tanky if it can't be critted like before.

It's also very very hard to stay below 25k HP in today's meta. Imagine a sorc with 25k+ HP and 25-26k total shields that can't be critted and also dealing very high damage.

This is also not counting for CPs like Ward Master, Relentless, and Pain's Refuge giving you upwards of 40% damage mitigation that can also work on shields that can't be critted.

Yea, it's not fun to fight against lol.

StaticWave

Hybridization + old shield is a recipe for disaster. Here's a random max magicka build I put together with 56k mag, 2.6k regen, and 22k HP. Impen isn't needed because old shields weren't crittable. ZERO investment into HP other than DDF and max HP is still 22k. Infused Resto staff back bar for perma 452 SD because Defending isn't needed. Stam sustain is plenty with Energy Overload gives 1k stam back and High Elf passive. Check the stats and the tooltip for Vigor and Curse/Frag/Ele Wep:











Almost 19k Curse tooltip, 15.5k Frag tooltip before the 66% extra damage (or 25.5k with the 66% extra damage), and 14k Elewep tooltip. Vigor tooltip is also 26k. All of this while having a 25k total shield (Hardened + Dampen) that can't be critted.

Sorc would become one of the most broken classes in an instant if we buffed it to its old glory.

Brrrofski

Give them a reliable heal and make it so conjured and dampen can't stack.

Change some of the useless passives too.

Sorted. Easy.

OBJnoob

There you go-- just give it the crystal weapon treatment. Make it so they can't stack like brrrofski said.

I understand what you other guys are saying but what sense does it make for sorcs to have 3 burst heals in their kit? I mean that's wasteful and silly isn't it?

jaws343

Brrrofski wrote: »

Give them a reliable heal and make it so conjured and dampen can't stack.

Change some of the useless passives too.

Sorted. Easy.

Seriously here. A few simple ways to make them not OP on sorc while improving effectiveness.

- Remove the Health cap from shields altogether.
- Remove Shield reduction from Battlespirit, or at the very least, decrease the amount of reduction done
- Make Sorc Shield and Light Armor Shield override one another. So that, when you cast one with the other active it takes its place.

Those 3 things would make shields viable and prevent shield stacking. Yeah, you would potentially have a 20K shield in Cyrodil. But just 1 and it still doesn't scale to the number of players or attacks you are taking on, so it is still going to melt under enough pressure.

StaticWave

jaws343 wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Give them a reliable heal and make it so conjured and dampen can't stack.

Change some of the useless passives too.

Sorted. Easy.

Seriously here. A few simple ways to make them not OP on sorc while improving effectiveness.

- Remove the Health cap from shields altogether.
- Remove Shield reduction from Battlespirit, or at the very least, decrease the amount of reduction done
- Make Sorc Shield and Light Armor Shield override one another. So that, when you cast one with the other active it takes its place.

Those 3 things would make shields viable and prevent shield stacking. Yeah, you would potentially have a 20K shield in Cyrodil. But just 1 and it still doesn't scale to the number of players or attacks you are taking on, so it is still going to melt under enough pressure.

These 3 suggestions would in fact make shields OP…

ZhrIcon

TLDR: "Don't look to your neighbor in envy of his possessions and circumstance, but utilize your own life and possessions to create a better circumstance befitting of you."
Sorc doesn't need all of this stuff that other classes have, just make their own tools work in the current iteration of the game.

I really don't understand the "give the Sorc a burst heal" sentiment. Isn't the game already homogenized enough? One thing that has always been a staple of at-least Magsorc gameplay is shields. Although I do agree with StaticWave that shields should not go back to being uncritable, maybe have one of the morphs give a baseline of crit resist WHEN ACTIVE. Also, lower the battlespirit shield % reduction and don't let shields stack unless another shield is cast by a player other than the Sorc themself. That frees up bar space (another gleaming issue of the Sorc) and keeps that original class fantasy alive. I don't need my magsorc to feel like my magblade, magnecro, etc. Work on keeping the classes own fantasies up to snuff with shifting changes of each patch and really double down on making the classes feel unique. Look at Stamsorc, everyone is just as fast as a Stamsorc now (fast, hard hitting burst with bleed pressure but squishy was their old class fantasy), so what do they have now? Oh that's right, nothing. They have a spammable that works similar to the psijic spammable, even has the same casting animation, and an Assassin's Will knock off. Sorc could use some class fantasy tuning again. Streak and pets isn't really enough in my opinion. Obviously none of these ideas are perfect, but just do SOMETHING to keep the class feeling unique.

ForumBully

I'm a little turned off of the burst heal idea now, there have been some great points for and against...I like the idea of a passive Crit chance increase to make Surge better and help damage as well.
As much as I hate the bird, I think that is the burst heal option for the foreseeable future.