I do not want Sorcerer buffs.

StaticWave

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

I am curious to see how the shields of then would stack up to the damage of now...but they were pretty strong

It would be very strong. Shields used to take zero crit damage and received zero mitigation from armor. Now, most sorcs run around in sub 20k armor, so the mitigation from armor applying to shield is useless as most of them are being fully penned anyways. However shields would be very tanky if it can't be critted like before.

It's also very very hard to stay below 25k HP in today's meta. Imagine a sorc with 25k+ HP and 25-26k total shields that can't be critted and also dealing very high damage.

This is also not counting for CPs like Ward Master, Relentless, and Pain's Refuge giving you upwards of 40% damage mitigation that can also work on shields that can't be critted.

Yea, it's not fun to fight against lol.

Depends on how you manage scaling

StaticWave wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

They’re doing very well afaik.

no

elaborate?

I know for a fact that they don’t fare well against competent players on other classes like DK
Their opinion differs from players from PC EU because

StaticWave wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

@Jsmalls you don’t need major resolve or 25k HP with old shields. That’s the point I was trying to make.

Old shields were uncrittable and didn’t benefit from armor, so Major Resolve was useless. And when you can spam 25k pseudo HP, you don’t need 25k HP.

I must have missed something. I wouldn't think anyone would ever vote for no crit shields. Pretty much anything but no crit shields, they were ridiculous. Rallying cry already shows what things look like when you start taking crit dmg down.

Just asking for a reliable burst heal or even a reliable strong hot maybe!

I was responding to someone's question about how old shields would compete in today's meta.

It wasn't really a response, and it was hypothetical. Just showing a max mag build isn't putting a Sorc of old in the damage of today. I know what sorcs were, I was there. Compared to the level of passive healing and tankiness of today's sets, the active defensive power of sorcs in their prime might not seem like the advantage it used to be.
Just showing me a a max stats build of today doesn't do much to make a point.

This is what you said:

ForumBully wrote: »

I am curious to see how the shields of then would stack up to the damage of now...but they were pretty strong

I responded with a hypothetical scenario where old shields would stack up to the damage of now. It's pretty obvious how strong they would be when the current meta is stacking crit damage.

Show you a max stat builds of today is a valid argument. Old sorcs didn't need Major Resolve or Impen because shields weren't crittable nor benefit from from armor. They'd be able to pump everything into damage and also have the healing of today's hybridization.

But I know what it looks like...why make the build? Even that isn't what sorcs were because you can't make that anymore unless youve got a build editor time machine. It's not in a live environment fighting a DK today....it was just "here's a build and it's OP today, trust me"

Why make the build? Because you literally said "I am curious to see how the shields of then would stack up to the damage of now...but they were pretty strong"

If you know they were pretty strong, then I don't understand why you don't think it would also be strong in today's meta where everyone builds for crit damage and hybridization is also a thing. Old shield being uncrittable is a perfect counter for today's damage.

I made the build because a sorc with old shields can just build into full damage and indirectly benefit from it defensively instead of having to build into damage and defense. It's a byproduct of shields being uncrittable. You don't need to slot Rallying Cry or Chudan or use any Impen traits.

You have to look at it as a whole picture. The ripple effects exist.

I disagree completely with this

I can bet you they bought back old shields I will be 1vx’ing whole zergs of sorcs.

I pretty sure only the top 1% know how to apply shields properly

I logged on 2 days ago and dueled 3 DKs on a stamsorc with Vigor, Dark Deal, and Surge. I had Curse, Frag, and Spin2Win on front bar. Also had EG.

I was able to stalemate one of those 3 DKs who was in 2 proc sets and spamming Corrosive. Came close to killing him several times. I recorded that fight too.

If I, a stamsorc with no shield and basically the same healing abilities as a magsorc, can survive a proc DK, then I think a magsorc can do it too, and they can do it easier.

I can bet you if they brought back old uncrittable shields the top 1% magsorc will dominate PvP and the average ones will just spam 2 shields whenever they’re low and make it impossible to kill them. Now you’re just shifting the aids meta from one class to another. I’m not sure this is what we really want.

jaws343

I think I am just going to go full DOT sorc, with Runecarver and Plaguebreak once the patch drops on console. Get 3 dots going on a target and get a runecarver proc every second, with plaguebreak to punish purge. All the pressure you'll ever need.

Most likely not though. Although, I plan to 100% wear this on my dotblade, using cloak to force crits on the runecarver procs.

Jsmalls

StaticWave wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

@StaticWave

I feel like you're treating this like PvE and not PvP...

Of course % DPS is going to go to your spammables and light attacks because that's what used most often. It doesn't mean it's the source of pressure though. Let's break that data down a bit further to get into the nitty gritty of what's actually happening...

Crushing Weapons deals (3600+1200=4800) on average each gcd.
Haunting curse deals (4400+3600+1200=10200) or (4400+6600+1200=12200) on average for the gcd in which it damages.
Crystal Fragments deals (6600+1200=7800) on average each gcd.

While I'll admit I wasn't expecting crushing to deal almost 5k on average each gcd I'd like to also point out that crushing weapons scales better than crushing shock in a base stat sense as well as for passives (crushing shock is increased by 5% for 1/3 of it's damage versus crushing weapons being 100% of it's damage from Sorc passive).

Something I'm also not considering in the above, there is non crit damage versus crit damage. Considering you crit 40% of the time and was critting for 5200 then that means non crits values equal 2600 + 1000 LA = 3600 for a spammable gcd. And that's more in line with what I would expect and is happening the majority of the time. Now take my previous section into consideration and you're probably looking at 3000~ per GCD for crushing shock (probably higher for those gcds with a status proc).

With all that on the table....

You're now comparing a 3-5k GCD for a spammable to a 8-9.5k GCD for frags and a 9k-14k GCD for curse.

The 3-5k GCD will be mostly mitigated with healing leaving very little health missing (little to no pressure) on these gcds.

If there are gcds where you are dealing that low of damage my argument is that that's not pressure. And then you have gcds where you're dealing 2-3x that amount of damage in one GCD, and that's called burst...

If you add 5 dots and a spammable that's consistent pressure that can be done for the duration of the dots every gcd. That's high pressure because it's consistent every gcd.

I'd also like to point out that you have a pretty strong damage build overall. So what happened to those 10k frags that you were going on about? I know you said Metallic was hitting them, but your build is very similar to his. You have similar penetration, like for like crit damage, and any other stat sheet disadvantage is covered by the extra minor berserk in your setup. Yet the highest frag you hit was 8.5k very close to the 8k statement I made... Very odd.... Then on top of that you're dueling a nightblade, and I can't speak for every nightblade build but nightblades are ALWAYS the class I get the highest hits on. Frags on a Warden, DK, or Templar with this setup (both yours and his) would be well below 8k due to their better active and passive defenses. Thought we were hitting 10k frags and 8k curses all day every day!? Lmao...

Once again this is all disregarding Overload. Feel like I have to make that statement.

Edit: At the end of the day we're debating about what to call damage in a fight. Mostly irrelevant because we agree on the actual damage... Mostly.

So basically, you’re trading consistent damage for a hard hitting one every X seconds, but due to the fact that Curse is unblockable and undodgable, it’s always top 2 in terms of DPS.

This is why I said sorc still has pressure despite being a burst class. Most of its abilities hit hard and the damage is distributed over 3 abilities (4 if you count Overload). The downside is it’s avoidable with dodge rolling, so it’s not always going to have the chance to behave as pressure.

However I can even argue that the fact that players have to constantly dodgeroll the damage of a sorc is evident that the class has pressure. If the class was truly a burst class, then you would only need to roll dodge once every X seconds like when fighting a NB.

Also as for your question about my Frag hitting 8.5k, the guy was in Rallying Cry and probably in several impen pieces. As you can see my crit damage is only 79%, so he’s probably mitigating somewhere around 50-55% of my crit dmg. The Frag number seems about right to me. When I fight people without Rallying Cry, I regularly hit 10-11k crit Frags, and I have screenshots to prove that.

@StaticWave

The dodge roll only needs to happen for frag procs, every other projectile any class can use... This is disregarding Overload, obviously overload and corrosive have to be treated the same defensively.

So basically, you’re trading consistent damage for a hard hitting one every X seconds, but due to the fact that Curse is unblockable and undodgable, it’s always top 2 in terms of DPS.

Ummm.... I hate to break it to you.... That's called burst.... And consistent damage is called pressure...

Is rallying cry not meta? And I'd argue with rallying cry and base impen he's not running any impen pieces.

I literally said you're not hitting meta builds for 10k frags, this is an Exact example of a meta build, albeit on a nightblade so you're arguably hitting harder than you would versus the same setup against the 3 tankier classes. And I also said Sorcs have no problems making mashed potatoes, but they often fall short in a competitive fight (regardless of how well the Sorc performs).

Checking the math on your data 8600 crit frag with 4 crits based on your total damage done means that your non crit frags were doing 5200~ damage each. Meaning that your max frag actually hit with a 63% crit bonus. Meaning that crit frag actually came when his rallying cry was down... So any more excuses? I mean math is math... Thanks for sharing so much data.

I'm 100% sure you hit tons of players for 10k frags. But you aren't hitting meta players for that... Unless they drop their defenses on an offensive push.

StaticWave

Jsmalls wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

@StaticWave

I feel like you're treating this like PvE and not PvP...

Of course % DPS is going to go to your spammables and light attacks because that's what used most often. It doesn't mean it's the source of pressure though. Let's break that data down a bit further to get into the nitty gritty of what's actually happening...

Crushing Weapons deals (3600+1200=4800) on average each gcd.
Haunting curse deals (4400+3600+1200=10200) or (4400+6600+1200=12200) on average for the gcd in which it damages.
Crystal Fragments deals (6600+1200=7800) on average each gcd.

While I'll admit I wasn't expecting crushing to deal almost 5k on average each gcd I'd like to also point out that crushing weapons scales better than crushing shock in a base stat sense as well as for passives (crushing shock is increased by 5% for 1/3 of it's damage versus crushing weapons being 100% of it's damage from Sorc passive).

Something I'm also not considering in the above, there is non crit damage versus crit damage. Considering you crit 40% of the time and was critting for 5200 then that means non crits values equal 2600 + 1000 LA = 3600 for a spammable gcd. And that's more in line with what I would expect and is happening the majority of the time. Now take my previous section into consideration and you're probably looking at 3000~ per GCD for crushing shock (probably higher for those gcds with a status proc).

With all that on the table....

You're now comparing a 3-5k GCD for a spammable to a 8-9.5k GCD for frags and a 9k-14k GCD for curse.

The 3-5k GCD will be mostly mitigated with healing leaving very little health missing (little to no pressure) on these gcds.

If there are gcds where you are dealing that low of damage my argument is that that's not pressure. And then you have gcds where you're dealing 2-3x that amount of damage in one GCD, and that's called burst...

If you add 5 dots and a spammable that's consistent pressure that can be done for the duration of the dots every gcd. That's high pressure because it's consistent every gcd.

I'd also like to point out that you have a pretty strong damage build overall. So what happened to those 10k frags that you were going on about? I know you said Metallic was hitting them, but your build is very similar to his. You have similar penetration, like for like crit damage, and any other stat sheet disadvantage is covered by the extra minor berserk in your setup. Yet the highest frag you hit was 8.5k very close to the 8k statement I made... Very odd.... Then on top of that you're dueling a nightblade, and I can't speak for every nightblade build but nightblades are ALWAYS the class I get the highest hits on. Frags on a Warden, DK, or Templar with this setup (both yours and his) would be well below 8k due to their better active and passive defenses. Thought we were hitting 10k frags and 8k curses all day every day!? Lmao...

Once again this is all disregarding Overload. Feel like I have to make that statement.

Edit: At the end of the day we're debating about what to call damage in a fight. Mostly irrelevant because we agree on the actual damage... Mostly.

So basically, you’re trading consistent damage for a hard hitting one every X seconds, but due to the fact that Curse is unblockable and undodgable, it’s always top 2 in terms of DPS.

This is why I said sorc still has pressure despite being a burst class. Most of its abilities hit hard and the damage is distributed over 3 abilities (4 if you count Overload). The downside is it’s avoidable with dodge rolling, so it’s not always going to have the chance to behave as pressure.

However I can even argue that the fact that players have to constantly dodgeroll the damage of a sorc is evident that the class has pressure. If the class was truly a burst class, then you would only need to roll dodge once every X seconds like when fighting a NB.

Also as for your question about my Frag hitting 8.5k, the guy was in Rallying Cry and probably in several impen pieces. As you can see my crit damage is only 79%, so he’s probably mitigating somewhere around 50-55% of my crit dmg. The Frag number seems about right to me. When I fight people without Rallying Cry, I regularly hit 10-11k crit Frags, and I have screenshots to prove that.

@StaticWave

The dodge roll only needs to happen for frag procs, every other projectile any class can use... This is disregarding Overload, obviously overload and corrosive have to be treated the same defensively.

So basically, you’re trading consistent damage for a hard hitting one every X seconds, but due to the fact that Curse is unblockable and undodgable, it’s always top 2 in terms of DPS.

Ummm.... I hate to break it to you.... That's called burst.... And consistent damage is called pressure...

Is rallying cry not meta? And I'd argue with rallying cry and base impen he's not running any impen pieces.

I literally said you're not hitting meta builds for 10k frags, this is an Exact example of a meta build, albeit on a nightblade so you're arguably hitting harder than you would versus the same setup against the 3 tankier classes. And I also said Sorcs have no problems making mashed potatoes, but they often fall short in a competitive fight (regardless of how well the Sorc performs).

Checking the math on your data 8600 crit frag with 4 crits based on your total damage done means that your non crit frags were doing 5200~ damage each. Meaning that your max frag actually hit with a 63% crit bonus. Meaning that crit frag actually came when his rallying cry was down... So any more excuses? I mean math is math... Thanks for sharing so much data.

I'm 100% sure you hit tons of players for 10k frags. But you aren't hitting meta players for that... Unless they drop their defenses on an offensive push.

I’m going to agree to disagree with you on the burst vs pressure thing. I personally believe that magsorc has pressure and I’m speaking from experience dueling top tier magsorcs on PC NA for thousands of duels. If you think sorc doesn’t have pressure, that’s fine. We have difference opinions on this topic so let’s skip it because it isn’t going anywhere.

As for your comment saying I’m not hitting 10k frag in meta builds, I can. I am also not min maxed or in a meta build because

1) I run Trickery instead of another dmg set
2) I’m not a Khajiit
3) I’m using Engine Guardian

So I’ll drop trickery for Rallying Cry, run full Divines to amp up Shadow Mundus, switch to Khajiit for 10% more crit dmg, run Chudan so I can drop Hurricane, and slot RAT for major Expedition.

With those changes, I’m going to gain ~ 27% more crit damage, making my total crit damage 106%, and ~300 more weapon dmg.

So with all of that I will be hitting 10k crit frags on meta players and 12k-13k crit frags on non meta players. So yea, math is math.

StaticWave

Jsmalls wrote: »

[
Checking the math on your data 8600 crit frag with 4 crits based on your total damage done means that your non crit frags were doing 5200~ damage each. Meaning that your max frag actually hit with a 63% crit bonus. Meaning that crit frag actually came when his rallying cry was down... So any more excuses? I mean math is math... Thanks for sharing so much data.

I'm 100% sure you hit tons of players for 10k frags. But you aren't hitting meta players for that... Unless they drop their defenses on an offensive push.

Here is a clip of me hitting the same player in the screenshot I posted previously:

https://youtu.be/OXEpLXVXvoM

Hit him with an 8.2k crit Cfrag after his Rallying procced. So no, I didn't just hit him for 8.6k when his Rallying Cry was down lol...

I mean you can assume all you want but I have the recording of the duel and I can see what's really going on. The fact of the matter is my 8.6k crit Cfrag was on a target with Rallying Cry, and I also wasn't min maxed for damage.

Sorc is fine, period.

StaticWave

Oh, and here is me hitting an 11.2k crit Cfrag on a guy with 25k physical resist and 1.7k crit resist. He didn't say what his spell resist was, but it was probably around 25k as well.







Pretty sure I didn't grab my essence in the screenshot, but I probably had the previous essence proc which I did grab. Here's another screenshot of him taking 9.7k crit Cfrag without Major Minor Breach and before I grabbed my essence proc:



So against someone that isn't using Rallying Cry with 25k armor, I'm hitting 11k crit frags in a build with literally only Essence Thief as my dmg set. Uh what? Sounds pretty broken don't you think?

Also, he didn't drop his armor buff in case you say I was hitting him while his armor was down. You can clearly see the spikes on his back:

StaticWave

So there is actually a reason why magsorc damage is mostly avoidable. It's so that people don't constantly eat an 11k crit Cfrag to the face.

Say what you will, but sorc DOES NOT lack damage and I have plenty of evidence to prove that lol. I'm literally hitting 11k frags against non Rallying Cry builds and almost 9k frags against Rallying Cry builds while not even wearing full damage myself. I'm literally in Trickery + Engine Guardian, not even in the correct race for a crit build, and not even using Sea Serpent. What do you think is going to happen when I update my build lol? I'd be throwing out 10k average crit Cfrags.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Sorc is fine, period.

Still waiting on a recent video where a sorc wins a dueling tournament. I say that to say that they can't compete with the higher end classes ultimately and so I wouldn't say that's fine. DK is fine,. NB is fine, sorc is playable but ultimately not in their overall league.

Sorc isn't helpless by any means but it crutches much harder on skill lines and sets than other top classes have to so yeah I wouldn't say fine but yes playable.

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Sorc is fine, period.

Still waiting on a recent video where a sorc wins a dueling tournament. I say that to say that they can't compete with the higher end classes ultimately and so I wouldn't say that's fine. DK is fine,. NB is fine, sorc is playable but ultimately not in their overall league.

Sorc isn't helpless by any means but it crutches much harder on skill lines and sets than other top classes have to so yeah I wouldn't say fine but yes playable.

You'll probably wait for a long time lol. There isn't any tournament going on on PC NA. Also, you probably won't see a magsorc enter, but a hybrid sorc. There's a pretty broken hybrid sorc build going on right now with Mara's Balm, 2 proc sets, and master DW.

StaticWave

Also when I said fine, I meant it isn't bad. Also never said it was in the same league as a NB and DK, but a good player on sorc can fight those 2 classes. Yes they will have to put in more effort, but that's only because sorc's defense is lacking. Sorc damage is very good and can rival those 2 classes.

Jsmalls

@StaticWave

Did you just try to use someone with 25k resist and borderline base crit resist as an example of a meta setup? I'd be hitting him with 8k non crit frags lol.

I'm hitting 25k resistances in light armor geez 25k is nothing. [snip]

Explain the numbers then. Based on the math of the data YOU posted of a duel against a meta build. Your non crit frags calculate to 5200. 8600 is 63% extra crit damage. If he was running 3000 crit resistance when you hit him you'd have hit with ~45% extra crit damage totaling 7300~ damage.

He's a nightblade, he could have easily lost major resolve at any point for that 8200 crit with rally proc since its a passive applied for short durations.

[edited for baiting]

StaticWave

Jsmalls wrote: »

Did you just try to use someone with 25k resist and borderline base crit resist as an example of a meta setup? I'd be hitting him with 8k non crit frags lol.

I didn't say he was in a meta build. Stop putting words in my mouth please?

I said "Oh, and here is me hitting an 11.2k crit Cfrag on a guy with 25k physical resist and 1.7k crit resist.". You know, the kind of builds that most casual players run because they don't care about min maxing. And those builds take 11k crit frags.


[snip]

Jsmalls wrote: »

Explain the numbers then. Based on the math of the data YOU posted of a duel against a meta build. Your non crit frags calculate to 5200. 8600 is 63% extra crit damage. If he was running 3000 crit resistance when you hit him you'd have hit with ~45% extra crit damage totaling 7300~ damage.

He's a nightblade, he could have easily lost major resolve at any point for that 8200 crit with rally proc since its a passive applied for short durations.

There's a thing called Pen... Had both Major Minor Breach active:



Then the 8.6k Cfrag:



Full clip of that damage instance:

https://youtu.be/aiXnsdjzVJs

Not sure why you are very adamant about proving me wrong though. I mean @MetallicMonk can also post his 9-10k frag videos to prove you wrong. What are you trying to get at here lol? That magsorc has no damage?

[edited for baiting and removed quote]

StaticWave

Oh btw @Jsmalls, notice how the NB was never at full HP? Yea, that's the kind of PRESSURE I was talking about.

The fact that I was able to constantly chip away at a NB that was using Dark Cloak, Path, and a burst heal and prevented him from reach max HP is also proof sorc has pressure.

We can stop arguing now because this is leading no where. I don't think you will ever agree with me that sorc can in fact deal 10k crit Frags on meta builds, or sorc is also a pressure class, etc even though I have posted clips and screenshots. Maybe you should post evidence of your own to prove your argument?

I've done my part, and I'm not even in a full damage build. I could easily push that damage past 10k with Inferno Staff, Khajiit race, Chudan, Minor Force, & Rallying Cry, but why would I? I'm built for 1vXing. I hit 10k frags on most people in Cyrodiil and that's good enough for me.

Fugus

Not to butt in too much into this conversation, but allow me to redefine the term "Pressure".

Not allowing them to be at full isn't pressure, that's just annoyance.

Pressure is the ability to keep them below 50% at least 50% of the time. Not allowing them to be at full life isn't pressure, that's just annoying them.

OBJnoob

Keeping someone below 50% for half the time is a pretty steep requirement. I mean you can run a pressure build but still be outhealed. Let's not confuse "pressuring" with "winning." Let's not confuse style with success.

StaticWave

Fugus wrote: »

Not to butt in too much into this conversation, but allow me to redefine the term "Pressure".

Not allowing them to be at full isn't pressure, that's just annoyance.

Pressure is the ability to keep them below 50% at least 50% of the time. Not allowing them to be at full life isn't pressure, that's just annoying them.

Lol that’s just basically defining strong pressure. There’s levels to pressure, similar to how there’s level to bursts.

I can face tank a DK and sit at 90% HP indefinitely until I get fossilized and drop to 50% HP from a Whip. Does that mean the DK was just annoying me and not pressuring? No, it meant the DK pressured and forced me to be defensive.

Any class can do that with the right build/skill combination. DoT builds can do it the easiest, but if you have a build with layered bursts, you can also achieve the same effect.

Fugus

StaticWave wrote: »

Lol that’s just basically defining strong pressure. There’s levels to pressure, similar to how there’s level to bursts.

I can face tank a DK and sit at 90% HP indefinitely until I get fossilized and drop to 50% HP from a Whip. Does that mean the DK was just annoying me and not pressuring? No, it meant the DK pressured and forced me to be defensive.

Any class can do that with the right build/skill combination. DoT builds can do it the easiest, but if you have a build with layered bursts, you can also achieve the same effect.

If that's your definition of pressure then your version of pressure has no weight in these discussions.

If I am playing a game and their attacks put me at 90%, then I don't call that pressure, I call them a joke.

Jsmalls

@StaticWave

Just find it odd that we're having a debate about hitting meta players for 10k frags so you include a video of you fragging a potato, saying hey look at what I can do.

As it stands the only video you've shown of a fight against a meta player you hit for a max 8.6k frag. No one's interested in dueling builds for 12k frags.

Yeah I'm very well aware of Pen.... I'm sitting at ~18k with minor breach proc'd from my inferno staff crushing weapons at a 20% chance.

The nightblade was at 90% at the beginning of the video, he was choosing to go offensive lol plus it was a 3 second video of course he's not at full health in those 3 seconds that you are actively causing damage, like what are you trying to prove with that? Lol

As for changing the build, khajiit will lose sustain, base damage, and base stats, making the build overall weaker on the defensive side. Chudan you'll lose sustain if you were previously running engine and counting on that (plus the extra mitigation of hiding being the sphere), you wouldn't have minor berserk on a mag Sorc (magelight vs expert) and assuming rallying and another damage set you'll either lose sustain or you'll take away from your damage on jewelry etc, otherwise it's just the build metallic runs and we already saw on paper I had more pen and base damage than him, without having to worry about proccing a back bar set. Obviously he chooses more crit damage than me (my personal choice to use the mage over the shadow most of the time I'm playing)

Anyone can make a nonviable max hit build, it's about balancing the setup out.... You could also do the same on a NB and hit a 20k bow proc so what?

Also I don't run dueling builds, I only run open world setups, that's why I always say running elemental drain in a setup for major breach is bleh because in open world I want to apply that to the player I'm about to burst mid offensive (crushing weapons) as well as have access to minor breach.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Also when I said fine, I meant it isn't bad. Also never said it was in the same league as a NB and DK, but a good player on sorc can fight those 2 classes. Yes they will have to put in more effort, but that's only because sorc's defense is lacking. Sorc damage is very good and can rival those 2 classes.

So maybe the argument is being made the wrong way.

Ok on paper, sorc has the damage. I can give you that.

But there's on paper damage and there's effective damage after you add all the other variables.

What I think is more the issue is the effective damage after you add in resource management, defenses, mitigation, etc.

What I'm saying is, in the current dk, Warden, NB heavy environment sorcs ability to apply that damage in a scenario where players skill and builds are both optimal, has a noticeable gap from damage on paper.

As you're saying a hybrid with sets that fill the gaps does fairly well at this but the problem is other classes don't have those gaps and so they build for even more advantage.

So add more damage or add more defense but either way I think the gap between damage on paper and damage done in common real world scenarios is there.

Also I know this gets even farther out there but it's not as meaningful if you just present a scenario that says look at me hitting for this much. I get that you qualify the target and that makes sense but it's not really meaningful data when there are so many factors in a fight.

Not to say that I don't appreciate the effort but real evidence of anything would require controlled and repeated testing and I am don't expect anyone to do that because there's too much to test.

If you're happy with sorc I can respect that but surely you can see where others might realistically want to close some of those gaps I mentioned?

StaticWave

Fugus wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Lol that’s just basically defining strong pressure. There’s levels to pressure, similar to how there’s level to bursts.

I can face tank a DK and sit at 90% HP indefinitely until I get fossilized and drop to 50% HP from a Whip. Does that mean the DK was just annoying me and not pressuring? No, it meant the DK pressured and forced me to be defensive.

Any class can do that with the right build/skill combination. DoT builds can do it the easiest, but if you have a build with layered bursts, you can also achieve the same effect.

If that's your definition of pressure then your version of pressure has no weight in these discussions.

If I am playing a game and their attacks put me at 90%, then I don't call that pressure, I call them a joke.

Lol sure, we can agree to disagree. I am continuing to pressure most people I fight against. If you think sorc pressure is bad and needs buffing, go ahead. That will only make me and @MetallicMonk stronger as a player lol.

StaticWave

And that goes for everybody in this thread. Clearly I and @MetallicMonk must be wrong since we are the only people who don’t share the same experience as everyone else. We won’t argue against buffing sorc damage anymore. Please continue asking for damage buffs. We will personally enjoy the overbuffed sorc for a whole patch when your wishes are granted 😂

jaws343

StaticWave wrote: »

And that goes for everybody in this thread. Clearly I and @MetallicMonk must be wrong since we are the only people who don’t share the same experience as everyone else. We won’t argue against buffing sorc damage anymore. Please continue asking for damage buffs. We will personally enjoy the overbuffed sorc for a whole patch when your wishes are granted 😂

I think the problem, and the general pushback, is that you keep pointing to top end players as examples of why the class shouldn't be buffed. It's like pointing to the top 1% of trial raid groups as a reason for not nerfing a trial, when that top 1% are the only people who are even remotely successful at it. The best players of a class, or pvp in general, really are out of touch with how the class performs for the majority of the playerbase.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

And that goes for everybody in this thread. Clearly I and @MetallicMonk must be wrong since we are the only people who don’t share the same experience as everyone else. We won’t argue against buffing sorc damage anymore. Please continue asking for damage buffs. We will personally enjoy the overbuffed sorc for a whole patch when your wishes are granted 😂

Now now , I think what's probably clear is that you have a different experience that you're ok with that some of us just don't find appealing.

Now it's true there are people that would see sorc of the old days return and hey that's just how people are. But I think it is also clear that there are people who just want sorc to be a bit more applicable to their play style which if done with some care sounds legit to me.

But I'm not really too worried about an over buffed sorc because dks, wardens, and nbs would likely still be able to handle them with perhaps some minor adjustments to how they play and what not.

ForumBully

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

And that goes for everybody in this thread. Clearly I and @MetallicMonk must be wrong since we are the only people who don’t share the same experience as everyone else. We won’t argue against buffing sorc damage anymore. Please continue asking for damage buffs. We will personally enjoy the overbuffed sorc for a whole patch when your wishes are granted 😂

Now now , I think what's probably clear is that you have a different experience that you're ok with that some of us just don't find appealing.

Now it's true there are people that would see sorc of the old days return and hey that's just how people are. But I think it is also clear that there are people who just want sorc to be a bit more applicable to their play style which if done with some care sounds legit to me.

But I'm not really too worried about an over buffed sorc because dks, wardens, and nbs would likely still be able to handle them with perhaps some minor adjustments to how they play and what not.

I'm pretty much fine with magsorc damage, and the defensive buff this update is fair, but IMO not particularly heavy handed. But I'm with you, while DKs are what they are I'm not worried at all about making sure to hold buffs back from other classes for some worry about making a weaker class too powerful.

StaticWave

jaws343 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

And that goes for everybody in this thread. Clearly I and @MetallicMonk must be wrong since we are the only people who don’t share the same experience as everyone else. We won’t argue against buffing sorc damage anymore. Please continue asking for damage buffs. We will personally enjoy the overbuffed sorc for a whole patch when your wishes are granted 😂

I think the problem, and the general pushback, is that you keep pointing to top end players as examples of why the class shouldn't be buffed. It's like pointing to the top 1% of trial raid groups as a reason for not nerfing a trial, when that top 1% are the only people who are even remotely successful at it. The best players of a class, or pvp in general, really are out of touch with how the class performs for the majority of the playerbase.

And I’m trying to prevent the top 1% from dominating. I think it’s a reasonable motive…

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

And that goes for everybody in this thread. Clearly I and @MetallicMonk must be wrong since we are the only people who don’t share the same experience as everyone else. We won’t argue against buffing sorc damage anymore. Please continue asking for damage buffs. We will personally enjoy the overbuffed sorc for a whole patch when your wishes are granted 😂

Now now , I think what's probably clear is that you have a different experience that you're ok with that some of us just don't find appealing.

Now it's true there are people that would see sorc of the old days return and hey that's just how people are. But I think it is also clear that there are people who just want sorc to be a bit more applicable to their play style which if done with some care sounds legit to me.

But I'm not really too worried about an over buffed sorc because dks, wardens, and nbs would likely still be able to handle them with perhaps some minor adjustments to how they play and what not.

Doubt it. I can already go toe to toe with Dks and Nbs in my full DoT sorc build. They wont be able to kill me if my dmg gets buffed.

AdamLAD

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

And that goes for everybody in this thread. Clearly I and @MetallicMonk must be wrong since we are the only people who don’t share the same experience as everyone else. We won’t argue against buffing sorc damage anymore. Please continue asking for damage buffs. We will personally enjoy the overbuffed sorc for a whole patch when your wishes are granted 😂

Now now , I think what's probably clear is that you have a different experience that you're ok with that some of us just don't find appealing.

Now it's true there are people that would see sorc of the old days return and hey that's just how people are. But I think it is also clear that there are people who just want sorc to be a bit more applicable to their play style which if done with some care sounds legit to me.

But I'm not really too worried about an over buffed sorc because dks, wardens, and nbs would likely still be able to handle them with perhaps some minor adjustments to how they play and what not.

Doubt it. I can already go toe to toe with Dks and Nbs in my full DoT sorc build. They wont be able to kill me if my dmg gets buffed.

Fight better players ?

OBJnoob

I think "we" are still in favor of putting major savagery/sorcery on crit surge right though? We can still do that??

I don't really give a flippin flop, I'm still looking forward to trying a stamsorc with the new update.

ForumBully

OBJnoob wrote: »

I think "we" are still in favor of putting major savagery/sorcery on crit surge right though? We can still do that??

I don't really give a flippin flop, I'm still looking forward to trying a stamsorc with the new update.

I wouldn't mind this, but then I'd give up Minor Berserk with Camo hunter. I'd almost rather see a flat Crit chance buff on a class passive. I think if we start suggesting named buffs on skills ZoS might put them on something like rune cage or mines and call it a day.
If they wanna give me penetration on curse...I'll take that.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Doubt it. I can already go toe to toe with Dks and Nbs in my full DoT sorc build. They wont be able to kill me if my dmg gets buffed.

Like I said it would just be a matter of adjustment for them and would depend on what buffs you were given.

Say for instance NB, good luck getting your damage to stick on one that's built to roll, setup for sustain, might use shade, and who even then will still have great damage. Not saying you might not eventually kill them, just the they have options that still mitigate a decent amount of your kit.

DK, do I even need to list the ways in which they can easily boost survival?

Not saying you can't kill these guys, I get kills on them too. Just emphasizing that you could get a buff but that you could easily still be put in a stalemate if either of those classes just decided to build into a bit more or different defense.

I mean an engine guardian closes out sorc but that's fairly the case with NB to some degree as well.